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[Matt Edmonds]

Hello
My church is looking to upgrade the sound system. The system that's in there was designed in the 80's and revamped around 2000, and is over due for an overhaul.

The sanctuary itself is a hexagon with a balcony. It's around 140 feet from one side to the other (so 70 feet from center out). Current speakers are a center cluster hung high. Seats around 1500 total. Seating is in 5 of the 8 sections (225*), so quite a wide area. We've been talking to multiple integrators and have received probably 6-7 bids on different systems. We seem to have it narrowed down to one integrator who has provided 2 options, but actually haven't had a chance to hear these 2 options as of yet.

So far we have heard QSC KLA, RCF HDL10A's, and Danley SH96HO's in there, and for various reasons are now more looking at the EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPMs. We are scheduling demos for those systems asap. He think's we will be happy with either, but prefers the Martins and in his opinion they sound better overall, but realizes the savings in price is something to consider.

Our church is one of the bigger ones in the area and at least 2-3 times a year host a concert. Recently it's been artist such as Mark Lowry, The Isaacs, and even Carman. But in the past we have hosted bands like Seventh Day Slumber and Skillet. They've always brought their own systems, and probably still will, but I would like to at least offer them the use of our system. But I understand these guys like to use what they know, and they know their own gear the best.

As far as our services we do a lot more contemporary music like Bethel, Gateway, etc. Right now we keep the volume at a fairly moderate level (95 dB or so during praise time) and would probably prefer clarity and ease of listening over volume. But as mentioned, I wouldn't mind if it could get louder when needed.

So I'm sure I'll know more after hearing them for myself, but to those that are familiar with these boxes, what are your thoughts? Both of these proposals are 3 arrays. The EAW is 3x6 boxes (plus 4 2x18 subs on the ground, which is the most subs of any proposal we've had) and the Martin is a center array of 8 boxes and two side arrays of 6 (with 4 1x18 subs). The martin system's price is about 20% more than the EAW system. But the Martin system has enough amps for "one box resolution" and won't require us to run 120v to the hangs. The EAW obviously will. So that will eat into the 20% savings (although we do have a licensed electrian available, he's the pastor's son in law/ drummer on the worship team, so we might get a small discount lol).

Thanks in advance.

[Scott Holtzman]

Hello
My church is looking to upgrade the sound system. The system that's in there was designed in the 80's and revamped around 2000, and is over due for an overhaul.

The sanctuary itself is a hexagon with a balcony. It's around 140 feet from one side to the other (so 70 feet from center out). Current speakers are a center cluster hung high. Seats around 1500 total. Seating is in 5 of the 8 sections (225*), so quite a wide area. We've been talking to multiple integrators and have received probably 6-7 bids on different systems. We seem to have it narrowed down to one integrator who has provided 2 options, but actually haven't had a chance to hear these 2 options as of yet.

So far we have heard QSC KLA, RCF HDL10A's, and Danley SH96HO's in there, and for various reasons are now more looking at the EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPMs. We are scheduling demos for those systems asap. He think's we will be happy with either, but prefers the Martins and in his opinion they sound better overall, but realizes the savings in price is something to consider.

Our church is one of the bigger ones in the area and at least 2-3 times a year host a concert. Recently it's been artist such as Mark Lowry, The Isaacs, and even Carman. But in the past we have hosted bands like Seventh Day Slumber and Skillet. They've always brought their own systems, and probably still will, but I would like to at least offer them the use of our system. But I understand these guys like to use what they know, and they know their own gear the best.

As far as our services we do a lot more contemporary music like Bethel, Gateway, etc. Right now we keep the volume at a fairly moderate level (95 dB or so during praise time) and would probably prefer clarity and ease of listening over volume. But as mentioned, I wouldn't mind if it could get louder when needed.

So I'm sure I'll know more after hearing them for myself, but to those that are familiar with these boxes, what are your thoughts? Both of these proposals are 3 arrays. The EAW is 3x6 boxes (plus 4 2x18 subs on the ground, which is the most subs of any proposal we've had) and the Martin is a center array of 8 boxes and two side arrays of 6 (with 4 1x18 subs). The martin system's price is about 20% more than the EAW system. But the Martin system has enough amps for "one box resolution" and won't require us to run 120v to the hangs. The EAW obviously will. So that will eat into the 20% savings (although we do have a licensed electrian available, he's the pastor's son in law/ drummer on the worship team, so we might get a small discount lol).

Thanks in advance.

What didn't you like about the RCF and Danley, that might help.  The KLA's are awful, we get why you didn't like them.

[Matt Edmonds]

What didn't you like about the RCF and Danley, that might help.  The KLA's are awful, we get why you didn't like them.

Oh good question. Long story, but basically the Pastor was told by "a friend" that Danley was only for outside use and not good inside.  And he won't let go of that. I'm all for them. They were even one of the less expensive proposals we saw. Everyone loved the RCF's, however I think the company proposing them went a bit overkill. Their proposal was for 4 arrays of 8 boxes. So it's actually been the most expensive proposal we've seen. And the price difference is enough, there's no way I can see it being approved over the other options. It's going to be an option the board looks at, but don't imagine it will be the choice. And I think the EAW or Martin systems will be more than sufficient.

Basically the price goes something like this. If the RCF's price is 100 on a scale of one to 100, then the EAW quote is 50 and the Martin quote is 60.

[Scott Holtzman]

Oh good question. Long story, but basically the Pastor was told by "a friend" that Danley was only for outside use and not good inside.  And he won't let go of that. I'm all for them. They were even one of the less expensive proposals we saw. Everyone loved the RCF's, however I think the company proposing them went a bit overkill. Their proposal was for 4 arrays of 8 boxes. So it's actually been the most expensive proposal we've seen. And the price difference is enough, there's no way I can see it being approved over the other options. It's going to be an option the board looks at, but don't imagine it will be the choice. And I think the EAW or Martin systems will be more than sufficient.

Basically the price goes something like this. If the RCF's price is 100 on a scale of one to 100, then the EAW quote is 50 and the Martin quote is 60.

If the Danley is sonically the best and has the best pricing it would seem silly to allow the pastors prejudice to be a factor in the decision.  If the pastor can't look at the 100's (if not 1000's) of Danley installs at HOW across the world and be rational then I would walk away from the deal entirely.

These are not emotional decisions.  A value matrix should be constructed addressing the goals of the upgrads.  Each system should be placed into the matrix.  This allos for a purely analytical decision to be made, picking the equipment and vendor who offers the best value proposition.

[Matt Edmonds]

If the Danley is sonically the best and has the best pricing it would seem silly to allow the pastors prejudice to be a factor in the decision.  If the pastor can't look at the 100's (if not 1000's) of Danley installs at HOW across the world and be rational then I would walk away from the deal entirely.

These are not emotional decisions.  A value matrix should be constructed addressing the goals of the upgrads.  Each system should be placed into the matrix.  This allos for a purely analytical decision to be made, picking the equipment and vendor who offers the best value proposition.

I’d gladly accept any help in setting up a matrix. But we are trying to take our time and find the “right” system.

I honestly can’t say the Danley are the best sonically and price wise. I wish I could. But price wise, the proposal is right around the EAW price. We’ve had other band members and board members at the demos. And the drummer and I are the two that really liked the Danley’s. The others not so much. Like the worship leader. She’s very receptive to my thoughts and opinions, but also knows a lot too, with a great ear, and wasn’t overly impressed. She really liked them, but loved the RCF. But that proposal was almost twice the price.

So at that point we had the KLA, that only pastor likes, the Danley with mixed reviews, and the RCF that everyone liked but for almost double the price. As much as we liked the RCF, twice the price is hard to justify.

That’s when we started talking to the guy that did the Danley proposal. He had mentioned he could get anything else. So I asked what else he would recommend other than Danley and he put together the EAW and Martin proposals. His prices have been fantastic. We’re planning on demos. But it’s looking like one of those two will probably be the chosen option. The price is in the range Pastor seems happy with. He’s heard of Martin in the past and knows “They were top of the line back in the day”. And with the EAW being less (than the Martin), he’s seems more interested in them.

So I guess I’m mostly looking for thoughts people have after using these systems for some time. Because even with the demo, that’s just scratching the surface. It’s easy to hear and demo and quickly form an opinion. It’s another to use a rig regularly. It would be great if someone could say “I’ve used both and here’s my thoughts...” but the chance of someone having time with both is probably slim. So I’ll take any opinions I can get (and take them with a grain of salt). But something is better than nothing.

[MikeHarris]

We just finished a WPM install and the client is very pleased.
We used one trick that saved us one amp and still kept one box resolution. As the outer hangs covered symmetrical L & R we shared amp channels..with 0 compromises to system tuning.

[Taylor Hall]

We have several RSX208L in our inventory and we really like them. No insight on how they compare to the Martin as they weren't on the market yet when we purchased. Easy set up, built in DSP is a breeze to tune, plenty of power on tap, rock solid for every event we've used them on. For an install I might shy away from something self-powered as electronics are more likely to go out than drivers, but that's just me.

I would agree with others that Danley could probably provide a better sounding and more cost-effective deployment than most of the other options listed. Installs are their bread and butter and their catalog reflects that. I've been in several buildings and attended events where Danley was used and it's always a treat.

[Matt Edmonds]

We just finished a WPM install and the client is very pleased.
We used one trick that saved us one amp and still kept one box resolution. As the outer hangs covered symmetrical L & R we shared amp channels..with 0 compromises to system tuning.

Good to know. I think I may ask about what we can do with sharing amps. The installer has said the amps are one of the most expensive parts. I've not seen a breakdown of how it will be configured. There are the 20 WPM, then 4 subs. But there is also 3 front fill and 10 under balcony speakers. So 37 speakers total. And they have spec'd 4 iK81 amps. So 32 channels of amps. So there are very few boxes on the same amp channel right now. And I would think the two side arrays should require the same tuning. I would also think the under balcony speakers could at least be paired up. So that would take it down to 26 channels. Less if we can swing more under balcony speakers on the same channel. Something I'll definitely ask about.

Many thanks.

[Nathan Riddle]

FWIW (not much). Both EAW & Martin sounded great when they were debuted at Infocomm.
But honestly, nearly everything that is a 'pro' product sounds 'good/great' IMO.

I wholly agree with Scott, the sound quality and brand (subjective) of an installed sound system is so much less of a concern than the requirements (coverage, spl, budget) [objective].

[Scott Holtzman]

I’d gladly accept any help in setting up a matrix. But we are trying to take our time and find the “right” system.

I honestly can’t say the Danley are the best sonically and price wise. I wish I could. But price wise, the proposal is right around the EAW price. We’ve had other band members and board members at the demos. And the drummer and I are the two that really liked the Danley’s. The others not so much. Like the worship leader. She’s very receptive to my thoughts and opinions, but also knows a lot too, with a great ear, and wasn’t overly impressed. She really liked them, but loved the RCF. But that proposal was almost twice the price.

So at that point we had the KLA, that only pastor likes, the Danley with mixed reviews, and the RCF that everyone liked but for almost double the price. As much as we liked the RCF, twice the price is hard to justify.

That’s when we started talking to the guy that did the Danley proposal. He had mentioned he could get anything else. So I asked what else he would recommend other than Danley and he put together the EAW and Martin proposals. His prices have been fantastic. We’re planning on demos. But it’s looking like one of those two will probably be the chosen option. The price is in the range Pastor seems happy with. He’s heard of Martin in the past and knows “They were top of the line back in the day”. And with the EAW being less (than the Martin), he’s seems more interested in them.

So I guess I’m mostly looking for thoughts people have after using these systems for some time. Because even with the demo, that’s just scratching the surface. It’s easy to hear and demo and quickly form an opinion. It’s another to use a rig regularly. It would be great if someone could say “I’ve used both and here’s my thoughts...” but the chance of someone having time with both is probably slim. So I’ll take any opinions I can get (and take them with a grain of salt). But something is better than nothing.

How did you demo them?  The line arrays, more than the point source option, will have to be flown and optimized for the room.

The integration is really more important than the particular vendor.  You relationship with the vendor is the key.  Sonically (except the KLA, it's not even in the same class) the EAW, Martin and Danley (many others too you could include) are all high quality gear that will give good service.  So many other vendors too like RCF, dbTech, FBT, Adamson, Meyer et al why is the field so narrow.

I certainly can sanitize and share a value matrix with you but you should already have your own points and how you are weighting them in the decision.

[ProSoundWeb Community]