ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church  (Read 11347 times)

Matt Edmonds

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« on: August 29, 2019, 12:56:52 PM »

Hello
My church is looking to upgrade the sound system. The system that's in there was designed in the 80's and revamped around 2000, and is over due for an overhaul.

The sanctuary itself is a hexagon with a balcony. It's around 140 feet from one side to the other (so 70 feet from center out). Current speakers are a center cluster hung high. Seats around 1500 total. Seating is in 5 of the 8 sections (225*), so quite a wide area. We've been talking to multiple integrators and have received probably 6-7 bids on different systems. We seem to have it narrowed down to one integrator who has provided 2 options, but actually haven't had a chance to hear these 2 options as of yet.

So far we have heard QSC KLA, RCF HDL10A's, and Danley SH96HO's in there, and for various reasons are now more looking at the EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPMs. We are scheduling demos for those systems asap. He think's we will be happy with either, but prefers the Martins and in his opinion they sound better overall, but realizes the savings in price is something to consider.

Our church is one of the bigger ones in the area and at least 2-3 times a year host a concert. Recently it's been artist such as Mark Lowry, The Isaacs, and even Carman. But in the past we have hosted bands like Seventh Day Slumber and Skillet. They've always brought their own systems, and probably still will, but I would like to at least offer them the use of our system. But I understand these guys like to use what they know, and they know their own gear the best.

As far as our services we do a lot more contemporary music like Bethel, Gateway, etc. Right now we keep the volume at a fairly moderate level (95 dB or so during praise time) and would probably prefer clarity and ease of listening over volume. But as mentioned, I wouldn't mind if it could get louder when needed.

So I'm sure I'll know more after hearing them for myself, but to those that are familiar with these boxes, what are your thoughts? Both of these proposals are 3 arrays. The EAW is 3x6 boxes (plus 4 2x18 subs on the ground, which is the most subs of any proposal we've had) and the Martin is a center array of 8 boxes and two side arrays of 6 (with 4 1x18 subs). The martin system's price is about 20% more than the EAW system. But the Martin system has enough amps for "one box resolution" and won't require us to run 120v to the hangs. The EAW obviously will. So that will eat into the 20% savings (although we do have a licensed electrian available, he's the pastor's son in law/ drummer on the worship team, so we might get a small discount lol).

Thanks in advance.
Logged

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7530
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2019, 03:00:52 PM »

Hello
My church is looking to upgrade the sound system. The system that's in there was designed in the 80's and revamped around 2000, and is over due for an overhaul.

The sanctuary itself is a hexagon with a balcony. It's around 140 feet from one side to the other (so 70 feet from center out). Current speakers are a center cluster hung high. Seats around 1500 total. Seating is in 5 of the 8 sections (225*), so quite a wide area. We've been talking to multiple integrators and have received probably 6-7 bids on different systems. We seem to have it narrowed down to one integrator who has provided 2 options, but actually haven't had a chance to hear these 2 options as of yet.

So far we have heard QSC KLA, RCF HDL10A's, and Danley SH96HO's in there, and for various reasons are now more looking at the EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPMs. We are scheduling demos for those systems asap. He think's we will be happy with either, but prefers the Martins and in his opinion they sound better overall, but realizes the savings in price is something to consider.

Our church is one of the bigger ones in the area and at least 2-3 times a year host a concert. Recently it's been artist such as Mark Lowry, The Isaacs, and even Carman. But in the past we have hosted bands like Seventh Day Slumber and Skillet. They've always brought their own systems, and probably still will, but I would like to at least offer them the use of our system. But I understand these guys like to use what they know, and they know their own gear the best.

As far as our services we do a lot more contemporary music like Bethel, Gateway, etc. Right now we keep the volume at a fairly moderate level (95 dB or so during praise time) and would probably prefer clarity and ease of listening over volume. But as mentioned, I wouldn't mind if it could get louder when needed.

So I'm sure I'll know more after hearing them for myself, but to those that are familiar with these boxes, what are your thoughts? Both of these proposals are 3 arrays. The EAW is 3x6 boxes (plus 4 2x18 subs on the ground, which is the most subs of any proposal we've had) and the Martin is a center array of 8 boxes and two side arrays of 6 (with 4 1x18 subs). The martin system's price is about 20% more than the EAW system. But the Martin system has enough amps for "one box resolution" and won't require us to run 120v to the hangs. The EAW obviously will. So that will eat into the 20% savings (although we do have a licensed electrian available, he's the pastor's son in law/ drummer on the worship team, so we might get a small discount lol).

Thanks in advance.

What didn't you like about the RCF and Danley, that might help.  The KLA's are awful, we get why you didn't like them.
Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Matt Edmonds

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2019, 06:31:39 PM »

What didn't you like about the RCF and Danley, that might help.  The KLA's are awful, we get why you didn't like them.

Oh good question. Long story, but basically the Pastor was told by "a friend" that Danley was only for outside use and not good inside.  :( And he won't let go of that. I'm all for them. They were even one of the less expensive proposals we saw. Everyone loved the RCF's, however I think the company proposing them went a bit overkill. Their proposal was for 4 arrays of 8 boxes. So it's actually been the most expensive proposal we've seen. And the price difference is enough, there's no way I can see it being approved over the other options. It's going to be an option the board looks at, but don't imagine it will be the choice. And I think the EAW or Martin systems will be more than sufficient.

Basically the price goes something like this. If the RCF's price is 100 on a scale of one to 100, then the EAW quote is 50 and the Martin quote is 60.
Logged

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7530
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2019, 07:43:13 PM »

Oh good question. Long story, but basically the Pastor was told by "a friend" that Danley was only for outside use and not good inside.  :( And he won't let go of that. I'm all for them. They were even one of the less expensive proposals we saw. Everyone loved the RCF's, however I think the company proposing them went a bit overkill. Their proposal was for 4 arrays of 8 boxes. So it's actually been the most expensive proposal we've seen. And the price difference is enough, there's no way I can see it being approved over the other options. It's going to be an option the board looks at, but don't imagine it will be the choice. And I think the EAW or Martin systems will be more than sufficient.

Basically the price goes something like this. If the RCF's price is 100 on a scale of one to 100, then the EAW quote is 50 and the Martin quote is 60.

If the Danley is sonically the best and has the best pricing it would seem silly to allow the pastors prejudice to be a factor in the decision.  If the pastor can't look at the 100's (if not 1000's) of Danley installs at HOW across the world and be rational then I would walk away from the deal entirely.

These are not emotional decisions.  A value matrix should be constructed addressing the goals of the upgrads.  Each system should be placed into the matrix.  This allos for a purely analytical decision to be made, picking the equipment and vendor who offers the best value proposition.

Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Matt Edmonds

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2019, 10:57:43 PM »

If the Danley is sonically the best and has the best pricing it would seem silly to allow the pastors prejudice to be a factor in the decision.  If the pastor can't look at the 100's (if not 1000's) of Danley installs at HOW across the world and be rational then I would walk away from the deal entirely.

These are not emotional decisions.  A value matrix should be constructed addressing the goals of the upgrads.  Each system should be placed into the matrix.  This allos for a purely analytical decision to be made, picking the equipment and vendor who offers the best value proposition.

I’d gladly accept any help in setting up a matrix. But we are trying to take our time and find the “right” system.

I honestly can’t say the Danley are the best sonically and price wise. I wish I could. But price wise, the proposal is right around the EAW price. We’ve had other band members and board members at the demos. And the drummer and I are the two that really liked the Danley’s. The others not so much. Like the worship leader. She’s very receptive to my thoughts and opinions, but also knows a lot too, with a great ear, and wasn’t overly impressed. She really liked them, but loved the RCF. But that proposal was almost twice the price.

So at that point we had the KLA, that only pastor likes, the Danley with mixed reviews, and the RCF that everyone liked but for almost double the price. As much as we liked the RCF, twice the price is hard to justify.

That’s when we started talking to the guy that did the Danley proposal. He had mentioned he could get anything else. So I asked what else he would recommend other than Danley and he put together the EAW and Martin proposals. His prices have been fantastic. We’re planning on demos. But it’s looking like one of those two will probably be the chosen option. The price is in the range Pastor seems happy with. He’s heard of Martin in the past and knows “They were top of the line back in the day”. And with the EAW being less (than the Martin), he’s seems more interested in them.

So I guess I’m mostly looking for thoughts people have after using these systems for some time. Because even with the demo, that’s just scratching the surface. It’s easy to hear and demo and quickly form an opinion. It’s another to use a rig regularly. It would be great if someone could say “I’ve used both and here’s my thoughts...” but the chance of someone having time with both is probably slim. So I’ll take any opinions I can get (and take them with a grain of salt). But something is better than nothing.
Logged

MikeHarris

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 490
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2019, 02:30:42 AM »

We just finished a WPM install and the client is very pleased.
We used one trick that saved us one amp and still kept one box resolution. As the outer hangs covered symmetrical L & R we shared amp channels..with 0 compromises to system tuning.
Logged

Taylor Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 869
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2019, 07:33:17 AM »

We have several RSX208L in our inventory and we really like them. No insight on how they compare to the Martin as they weren't on the market yet when we purchased. Easy set up, built in DSP is a breeze to tune, plenty of power on tap, rock solid for every event we've used them on. For an install I might shy away from something self-powered as electronics are more likely to go out than drivers, but that's just me.

I would agree with others that Danley could probably provide a better sounding and more cost-effective deployment than most of the other options listed. Installs are their bread and butter and their catalog reflects that. I've been in several buildings and attended events where Danley was used and it's always a treat.
Logged
There are two ways to do anything:
1) Do it right
2) Do it over until you do it right

Matt Edmonds

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2019, 02:47:32 PM »

We just finished a WPM install and the client is very pleased.
We used one trick that saved us one amp and still kept one box resolution. As the outer hangs covered symmetrical L & R we shared amp channels..with 0 compromises to system tuning.

Good to know. I think I may ask about what we can do with sharing amps. The installer has said the amps are one of the most expensive parts. I've not seen a breakdown of how it will be configured. There are the 20 WPM, then 4 subs. But there is also 3 front fill and 10 under balcony speakers. So 37 speakers total. And they have spec'd 4 iK81 amps. So 32 channels of amps. So there are very few boxes on the same amp channel right now. And I would think the two side arrays should require the same tuning. I would also think the under balcony speakers could at least be paired up. So that would take it down to 26 channels. Less if we can swing more under balcony speakers on the same channel. Something I'll definitely ask about.

Many thanks.
Logged

Nathan Riddle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2052
  • Niceville, FL
    • Nailed Productions
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2019, 03:14:18 PM »

FWIW (not much). Both EAW & Martin sounded great when they were debuted at Infocomm.
But honestly, nearly everything that is a 'pro' product sounds 'good/great' IMO.

I wholly agree with Scott, the sound quality and brand (subjective) of an installed sound system is so much less of a concern than the requirements (coverage, spl, budget) [objective].
Logged
I'm just a guy trying to do the next right thing.

This business is for people with too much energy for desk jobs and too much brain for labor jobs. - Scott Helmke

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7530
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2019, 03:30:55 PM »

I’d gladly accept any help in setting up a matrix. But we are trying to take our time and find the “right” system.

I honestly can’t say the Danley are the best sonically and price wise. I wish I could. But price wise, the proposal is right around the EAW price. We’ve had other band members and board members at the demos. And the drummer and I are the two that really liked the Danley’s. The others not so much. Like the worship leader. She’s very receptive to my thoughts and opinions, but also knows a lot too, with a great ear, and wasn’t overly impressed. She really liked them, but loved the RCF. But that proposal was almost twice the price.

So at that point we had the KLA, that only pastor likes, the Danley with mixed reviews, and the RCF that everyone liked but for almost double the price. As much as we liked the RCF, twice the price is hard to justify.

That’s when we started talking to the guy that did the Danley proposal. He had mentioned he could get anything else. So I asked what else he would recommend other than Danley and he put together the EAW and Martin proposals. His prices have been fantastic. We’re planning on demos. But it’s looking like one of those two will probably be the chosen option. The price is in the range Pastor seems happy with. He’s heard of Martin in the past and knows “They were top of the line back in the day”. And with the EAW being less (than the Martin), he’s seems more interested in them.

So I guess I’m mostly looking for thoughts people have after using these systems for some time. Because even with the demo, that’s just scratching the surface. It’s easy to hear and demo and quickly form an opinion. It’s another to use a rig regularly. It would be great if someone could say “I’ve used both and here’s my thoughts...” but the chance of someone having time with both is probably slim. So I’ll take any opinions I can get (and take them with a grain of salt). But something is better than nothing.

How did you demo them?  The line arrays, more than the point source option, will have to be flown and optimized for the room.

The integration is really more important than the particular vendor.  You relationship with the vendor is the key.  Sonically (except the KLA, it's not even in the same class) the EAW, Martin and Danley (many others too you could include) are all high quality gear that will give good service.  So many other vendors too like RCF, dbTech, FBT, Adamson, Meyer et al why is the field so narrow.

I certainly can sanitize and share a value matrix with you but you should already have your own points and how you are weighting them in the decision.

Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Matt Edmonds

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2019, 06:51:21 PM »

We have several RSX208L in our inventory and we really like them. No insight on how they compare to the Martin as they weren't on the market yet when we purchased. Easy set up, built in DSP is a breeze to tune, plenty of power on tap, rock solid for every event we've used them on. For an install I might shy away from something self-powered as electronics are more likely to go out than drivers, but that's just me. At least IMO.

I would agree with others that Danley could probably provide a better sounding and more cost-effective deployment than most of the other options listed. Installs are their bread and butter and their catalog reflects that. I've been in several buildings and attended events where Danley was used and it's always a treat.

Thanks for the feedback. From what I’ve read, I don’t think we would be disappointed with the EAW’s. And probably just as happy with those as the Martin or any others in that league. But it’s the things like self powered vs non-powered, that I want to make sure we’re considering. Overall I have no doubts in the companies ability to install or tune any system we go with. I’ve seen EASE coverage plots for all the systems we’re looking at (except the KLA, which I wish we did, so I could show pastor why they don’t fit our room). As accurate as I’m sure they can be, they’re still theoretical until the gears actually in the room. And can’t speak for the quality of the sound.

We have considered the implications of having a self powered array. At least to the best of my ability. The installer that is likely to get the job and I, have talked about that to some extent. He says the EAW are some of the better ones to work on, but over all they are more difficult than a non powered array. But also said the support from either EAW or Martin has always been superb. And he hasn’t had many issues with either.

And as far as Danley goes, we’ve actually had two companies propose them. And they’ve been around the same price and not really more cost effective. The two designs were very similar, with one swapping to of them SH96HO’s for the regular SH96. And maybe one less sub. I’d have to recheck. But the lower priced one was just barely less than the EAW proposal. And the higher priced one was just over the Martin proposal. So that plus pastor not being a fan, and less than stellar impressions by others at the church, and unfortunately they’re very unlikely to be the system that is chosen.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 06:54:45 PM by Matt Edmonds »
Logged

Matt Edmonds

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2019, 07:54:54 PM »

How did you demo them?  The line arrays, more than the point source option, will have to be flown and optimized for the room.

The integration is really more important than the particular vendor.  You relationship with the vendor is the key.  Sonically (except the KLA, it's not even in the same class) the EAW, Martin and Danley (many others too you could include) are all high quality gear that will give good service.  So many other vendors too like RCF, dbTech, FBT, Adamson, Meyer et al why is the field so narrow.

I certainly can sanitize and share a value matrix with you but you should already have your own points and how you are weighting them in the decision.

So far all the demos have been ground stacks of the speakers. With the exception kind of being the KLA. He had one or two of those on the ground with a sub, and then one up on some scaffolding. They've all been put just behind the center point on the stage facing the audience. (again except the KLA's which were to one side of the stage facing around around 4 o'clock if 12 was pointed at the back of the stage and the center of the audience being 6 o'clock). But none of them, did any kind of optimizing per se. They may have added a bit of parametric EQ through the boards, but nothing drastic.

I'm very happy with the guy that is likely to get the job. And he seems to have very good relationships with most if not all of the bigger brands out there. I've seen and heard his work, so again I don't think we'll miss with whichever of his systems we go with. I've seen the EASE diagrams, and am comfortable with the coverage and levels of the systems.

As far as options that we've discussed. We've talked to, I believe 5 different companies about options. Where we are, it's at least 100 miles to a city large enough to have companies to talk to. And I think we've talked to most of them within 150+ mile radius. And one is out of Washington state, but I knew the guy before he went to work for that company. Anyway we've told them to give us what all options they think will work well for us. We've never asked to use a specific brand, or excluded a brand.

Company 1 is the one pushing the KLA, and pastor's "friend". That's the only reason his proposal is still technically in the running.

Company 2 is a national company that proposed the higher priced Danley system. He said he would price match any other proposals, but really only thinks the Danley would work in our room. Being as his Danley system was already one of the more expensive ones, I took that as, "anything else I price match will probably cost as much or more." So they're on the outside looking in.

Company 3 is a national company that started out with a bang in the first meeting we had. They brought in a team of people and really had some good things to say. I think we almost would have signed the contract that day, if they would have had one. They said they would give us good, better, best options for sound. Then they sent us a proposal for RCF that is the second highest proposal we've seen. Never mentioned any other options and then slowly quit communicating with us. So they kind of ruled themselves out.

Company 4 was also very similar to company 3, in that we really really like them and believe in what they do. It's only been a rep that we've talked to, so he maybe didn't wow us as much at the first meeting. However he has been fantastic. He's made several trips to talk to us. He did the most thorough check of what we already have to see what could possibly be reused (nothing, but I did appreciate him checking even after I told him nothing would be reusable). Their proposal was also for an RCF system. However it ended up being the highest priced one of all. So unfortunately, that one is not likely to be the choice. However it will be presented to the board. That's how much we like him and their vision.

Company 5 is the one we will probably go with. He has a smaller local company. He started as the other Danley proposal. But told us he could get anything. At first I thought company 4 was going to be the choice, but started talking to him again when I realized we might end up with the KLA system from pastor's friend since the price difference was so great. So he came back with the EAW and Martin system proposals. And it's worked out well, as his prices have ended up being really fantastic. Plus he's been very responsive and open to any questions or ideas we've had. I asked about Meyer, but he says he's not personally a huge fan. He doesn't deny they're fantastic, but at least to him, can be fatiguing when listening to them for extended periods. So only goes with them, when the client wants Meyer. He also mentioned looking at L'Acoustic and dB Tech, but said in his opinion, for the difference in price, they're not that much better sounding than the Martins. But if we thought we had the budget he would gladly provide a proposal for those. However if they're more than the Martin (and he said they will be), they're not likely to get approved. So I don't want to waste his time.

So we obviously don't have proposals from every speaker out there, but have allowed the companies to give us any option they wanted. In fact company 3 said their "best" option would probably be Meyer, but they ended up only providing the RCF option.

My point being we haven't intended to narrow the field. In fact I've tried to exhaust all the options I can find, short of emailing every integrator/speaker manufacturer I find on the internet. Do you feel like there is an option we are missing out on? I'll happily ask company 5 if they can look at those for us. And if he can't, I'll contact the company directly and find out who their local rep is and who they recommend us talking to. I don't want us to miss out on a compelling option. However I do feel like we've narrowed it down to options that everyone will be happy with.

I guess I'm just trying to get insight, if there's something that will make us happier in the long term, that we're not considering. Again I think we'll be happy with either. Just trying to not over look something. Again thanks. :)
Logged

Nathan Riddle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2052
  • Niceville, FL
    • Nailed Productions
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2019, 10:48:59 PM »

So far all the demos have been ground stacks of the speakers. With the exception kind of being the KLA. He had one or two of those on the ground with a sub, and then one up on some scaffolding. They've all been put just behind the center point on the stage facing the audience. (again except the KLA's which were to one side of the stage facing around around 4 o'clock if 12 was pointed at the back of the stage and the center of the audience being 6 o'clock). But none of them, did any kind of optimizing per se. They may have added a bit of parametric EQ through the boards, but nothing drastic.

I'm very happy with the guy that is likely to get the job. And he seems to have very good relationships with most if not all of the bigger brands out there. I've seen and heard his work, so again I don't think we'll miss with whichever of his systems we go with. I've seen the EASE diagrams, and am comfortable with the coverage and levels of the systems.

As far as options that we've discussed. We've talked to, I believe 5 different companies about options. Where we are, it's at least 100 miles to a city large enough to have companies to talk to. And I think we've talked to most of them within 150+ mile radius. And one is out of Washington state, but I knew the guy before he went to work for that company. Anyway we've told them to give us what all options they think will work well for us. We've never asked to use a specific brand, or excluded a brand.

Company 1 is the one pushing the KLA, and pastor's "friend". That's the only reason his proposal is still technically in the running.

Company 2 is a national company that proposed the higher priced Danley system. He said he would price match any other proposals, but really only thinks the Danley would work in our room. Being as his Danley system was already one of the more expensive ones, I took that as, "anything else I price match will probably cost as much or more." So they're on the outside looking in.

Company 3 is a national company that started out with a bang in the first meeting we had. They brought in a team of people and really had some good things to say. I think we almost would have signed the contract that day, if they would have had one. They said they would give us good, better, best options for sound. Then they sent us a proposal for RCF that is the second highest proposal we've seen. Never mentioned any other options and then slowly quit communicating with us. So they kind of ruled themselves out.

Company 4 was also very similar to company 3, in that we really really like them and believe in what they do. It's only been a rep that we've talked to, so he maybe didn't wow us as much at the first meeting. However he has been fantastic. He's made several trips to talk to us. He did the most thorough check of what we already have to see what could possibly be reused (nothing, but I did appreciate him checking even after I told him nothing would be reusable). Their proposal was also for an RCF system. However it ended up being the highest priced one of all. So unfortunately, that one is not likely to be the choice. However it will be presented to the board. That's how much we like him and their vision.

Company 5 is the one we will probably go with. He has a smaller local company. He started as the other Danley proposal. But told us he could get anything. At first I thought company 4 was going to be the choice, but started talking to him again when I realized we might end up with the KLA system from pastor's friend since the price difference was so great. So he came back with the EAW and Martin system proposals. And it's worked out well, as his prices have ended up being really fantastic. Plus he's been very responsive and open to any questions or ideas we've had. I asked about Meyer, but he says he's not personally a huge fan. He doesn't deny they're fantastic, but at least to him, can be fatiguing when listening to them for extended periods. So only goes with them, when the client wants Meyer. He also mentioned looking at L'Acoustic and dB Tech, but said in his opinion, for the difference in price, they're not that much better sounding than the Martins. But if we thought we had the budget he would gladly provide a proposal for those. However if they're more than the Martin (and he said they will be), they're not likely to get approved. So I don't want to waste his time.

So we obviously don't have proposals from every speaker out there, but have allowed the companies to give us any option they wanted. In fact company 3 said their "best" option would probably be Meyer, but they ended up only providing the RCF option.

My point being we haven't intended to narrow the field. In fact I've tried to exhaust all the options I can find, short of emailing every integrator/speaker manufacturer I find on the internet. Do you feel like there is an option we are missing out on? I'll happily ask company 5 if they can look at those for us. And if he can't, I'll contact the company directly and find out who their local rep is and who they recommend us talking to. I don't want us to miss out on a compelling option. However I do feel like we've narrowed it down to options that everyone will be happy with.

I guess I'm just trying to get insight, if there's something that will make us happier in the long term, that we're not considering. Again I think we'll be happy with either. Just trying to not over look something. Again thanks. :)



Looks like you've done this the correct way!

Sorry if we seemed a bit peevish, but we're accustomed to "I bought this 'insert guitar center speaker' and had my friend install it can you help us" and "we want a system installed to seat 1500 people at RAWK volumes for $500, oh and we'll only accept Meyer and it's gotta be installed by our pastors wife's brother. (I write this trying to be comical, not mean spirited).

Anyways, I'd narrow it down to 3 integrators (tell one of them you're 99% sure you're going with them). And a single design. Say bring me your best quote.

Go with installer 5 and the Martin or EAW system. You'll be happy and you won't waste any installers times or your own spinning wheels.


Logged
I'm just a guy trying to do the next right thing.

This business is for people with too much energy for desk jobs and too much brain for labor jobs. - Scott Helmke

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7530
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2019, 11:31:09 PM »

So far all the demos have been ground stacks of the speakers. With the exception kind of being the KLA. He had one or two of those on the ground with a sub, and then one up on some scaffolding. They've all been put just behind the center point on the stage facing the audience. (again except the KLA's which were to one side of the stage facing around around 4 o'clock if 12 was pointed at the back of the stage and the center of the audience being 6 o'clock). But none of them, did any kind of optimizing per se. They may have added a bit of parametric EQ through the boards, but nothing drastic.

I'm very happy with the guy that is likely to get the job. And he seems to have very good relationships with most if not all of the bigger brands out there. I've seen and heard his work, so again I don't think we'll miss with whichever of his systems we go with. I've seen the EASE diagrams, and am comfortable with the coverage and levels of the systems.

As far as options that we've discussed. We've talked to, I believe 5 different companies about options. Where we are, it's at least 100 miles to a city large enough to have companies to talk to. And I think we've talked to most of them within 150+ mile radius. And one is out of Washington state, but I knew the guy before he went to work for that company. Anyway we've told them to give us what all options they think will work well for us. We've never asked to use a specific brand, or excluded a brand.

Company 1 is the one pushing the KLA, and pastor's "friend". That's the only reason his proposal is still technically in the running.

Company 2 is a national company that proposed the higher priced Danley system. He said he would price match any other proposals, but really only thinks the Danley would work in our room. Being as his Danley system was already one of the more expensive ones, I took that as, "anything else I price match will probably cost as much or more." So they're on the outside looking in.

Company 3 is a national company that started out with a bang in the first meeting we had. They brought in a team of people and really had some good things to say. I think we almost would have signed the contract that day, if they would have had one. They said they would give us good, better, best options for sound. Then they sent us a proposal for RCF that is the second highest proposal we've seen. Never mentioned any other options and then slowly quit communicating with us. So they kind of ruled themselves out.

Company 4 was also very similar to company 3, in that we really really like them and believe in what they do. It's only been a rep that we've talked to, so he maybe didn't wow us as much at the first meeting. However he has been fantastic. He's made several trips to talk to us. He did the most thorough check of what we already have to see what could possibly be reused (nothing, but I did appreciate him checking even after I told him nothing would be reusable). Their proposal was also for an RCF system. However it ended up being the highest priced one of all. So unfortunately, that one is not likely to be the choice. However it will be presented to the board. That's how much we like him and their vision.

Company 5 is the one we will probably go with. He has a smaller local company. He started as the other Danley proposal. But told us he could get anything. At first I thought company 4 was going to be the choice, but started talking to him again when I realized we might end up with the KLA system from pastor's friend since the price difference was so great. So he came back with the EAW and Martin system proposals. And it's worked out well, as his prices have ended up being really fantastic. Plus he's been very responsive and open to any questions or ideas we've had. I asked about Meyer, but he says he's not personally a huge fan. He doesn't deny they're fantastic, but at least to him, can be fatiguing when listening to them for extended periods. So only goes with them, when the client wants Meyer. He also mentioned looking at L'Acoustic and dB Tech, but said in his opinion, for the difference in price, they're not that much better sounding than the Martins. But if we thought we had the budget he would gladly provide a proposal for those. However if they're more than the Martin (and he said they will be), they're not likely to get approved. So I don't want to waste his time.

So we obviously don't have proposals from every speaker out there, but have allowed the companies to give us any option they wanted. In fact company 3 said their "best" option would probably be Meyer, but they ended up only providing the RCF option.

My point being we haven't intended to narrow the field. In fact I've tried to exhaust all the options I can find, short of emailing every integrator/speaker manufacturer I find on the internet. Do you feel like there is an option we are missing out on? I'll happily ask company 5 if they can look at those for us. And if he can't, I'll contact the company directly and find out who their local rep is and who they recommend us talking to. I don't want us to miss out on a compelling option. However I do feel like we've narrowed it down to options that everyone will be happy with.

I guess I'm just trying to get insight, if there's something that will make us happier in the long term, that we're not considering. Again I think we'll be happy with either. Just trying to not over look something. Again thanks. :)

Like Nathan I too see church's waste so much money because of "pastor's friends" and as he pointed out members donating money trying to do the design.

Being a local company I am predisposed to working local.  Sounds like you have a team that you are aligned with.  That's really more important that the gear they put in.  That being said Martin vs. EAF that's a real tough one.   Both make great stuff.

Just to let you know what a battle this is my home church built a new facility, three video walls, nice new building blah blah.  Anyway they bought 4 KLA's aside because the donor was a QSC fan (I have a large QSC rental inventory too, not KLA's though) the congregation thought the 4 boxes hung too low and they put 2 side by side, it's sound like total ass.  I joked at Easter with my whole extended family I was going to climb up and turn two off!  Anyway I have nothing to do with production at my church home and am only cordial to the tech director.   

Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Nathan Riddle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2052
  • Niceville, FL
    • Nailed Productions
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2019, 12:19:59 AM »

Like Nathan I too see church's waste so much money because of "pastor's friends" and as he pointed out members donating money trying to do the design.

Being a local company I am predisposed to working local.  Sounds like you have a team that you are aligned with.  That's really more important that the gear they put in.  That being said Martin vs. EAF that's a real tough one.   Both make great stuff.

Just to let you know what a battle this is my home church built a new facility, three video walls, nice new building blah blah.  Anyway they bought 4 KLA's aside because the donor was a QSC fan (I have a large QSC rental inventory too, not KLA's though) the congregation thought the 4 boxes hung too low and they put 2 side by side, it's sound like total ass.  I joked at Easter with my whole extended family I was going to climb up and turn two off!  Anyway I have nothing to do with production at my church home and am only cordial to the tech director.

Jeeeez. Ewwwww. Sounds like you should "get involved" you have gifts...use 'em! ;) Paddling up stream builds arm strength  ;D
Logged
I'm just a guy trying to do the next right thing.

This business is for people with too much energy for desk jobs and too much brain for labor jobs. - Scott Helmke

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7530
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2019, 12:26:23 AM »

Jeeeez. Ewwwww. Sounds like you should "get involved" you have gifts...use 'em! ;) Paddling up stream builds arm strength  ;D

Hmmm...point taken...
Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Matt Edmonds

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2019, 12:51:40 AM »



Looks like you've done this the correct way!

Sorry if we seemed a bit peevish, but we're accustomed to "I bought this 'insert guitar center speaker' and had my friend install it can you help us" and "we want a system installed to seat 1500 people at RAWK volumes for $500, oh and we'll only accept Meyer and it's gotta be installed by our pastors wife's brother. (I write this trying to be comical, not mean spirited).

Anyways, I'd narrow it down to 3 integrators (tell one of them you're 99% sure you're going with them). And a single design. Say bring me your best quote.

Go with installer 5 and the Martin or EAW system. You'll be happy and you won't waste any installers times or your own spinning wheels.

Cool. Glad to know. I was definitely trying to make sure we cover all the bases. I want our church to have a system that isn’t lacking. This will be the first time in its almost 40 years of existence that it will have a proper sound system. So I’m excited. :D

And no worries, I never thought anyone had an off putting attitude.   I get it. I also work as a motorcycle mechanic. And often times someone will come in and ask me a tech question. I’ll spend 30 mins explaining the answer. Then they’ll respond with, that’s not what my cousin said. Or the guy on YouTube said this.

And then I’ve seen it many many many times in churches, where things are bought and replaced 4 times before they do it right. Heck that’s essentially what my church has been doing since before I started helping with sound. And even when I started helping with that, we had a member who was doing video, and purchased/ donated a bunch of equipment. It’s hard for the church to say no to free, but it’s a mess. He’s not there anymore and so it’s next on our list after getting the sound sorted. So that’s definitely what I’m trying to avoid.

Anyway thanks again to all. I feel like either of the two most likely options will be winners. I’ll report back once the decision has been finalized.
Logged

Matt Edmonds

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2019, 06:50:15 PM »

Well to anyone interested, the votes have been cast, and we are going with the EAW system. The vote actually happened a week or so ago, and install should happen next week. I appreciate the helpful replies and guidance. I may try to post some pics.

And one last part to the story. After the board had voted, pastor mentioned he wasn't looking forward to calling "his friend" and letting him know. But a couple of days later I get a phone call from Pastor. He had talked to his friend (and apparently pastor told him exactly what we're going with), and his friend called Pastor back and told him something wasn't right. There was no way in the world he or anyone else could buy the speakers, let alone install them, for the price we were getting. So something was fishy. At this point I almost admire his dedication to undermining every option we looked at. Anyway I priced out the speakers online. He's wrong, and apparently pays more than I would have to, without me calling in and asking for (and probably getting) a better price.

Anyway again Thanks.
Logged

Tommy Shannon

  • Marketplace
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 54
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2020, 06:40:20 PM »

Well to anyone interested, the votes have been cast, and we are going with the EAW system. The vote actually happened a week or so ago, and install should happen next week. I appreciate the helpful replies and guidance. I may try to post some pics.

And one last part to the story. After the board had voted, pastor mentioned he wasn't looking forward to calling "his friend" and letting him know. But a couple of days later I get a phone call from Pastor. He had talked to his friend (and apparently pastor told him exactly what we're going with), and his friend called Pastor back and told him something wasn't right. There was no way in the world he or anyone else could buy the speakers, let alone install them, for the price we were getting. So something was fishy. At this point I almost admire his dedication to undermining every option we looked at. Anyway I priced out the speakers online. He's wrong, and apparently pays more than I would have to, without me calling in and asking for (and probably getting) a better price.

Anyway again Thanks.

So... it's been 9 months since you made the choice to go with the EAWs. How's it working for you?
Logged

Matt Edmonds

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2020, 08:28:38 PM »

Hey Tommy. Thanks for asking. I'm still loving them. I have done a bit of my own tuning of the system and am liking it even more. The integrator had an EAW tech come in and tune it. However due to scheduling conflicts, I don't think they got it to 1000% where they wanted it. The system was just finally getting turned on when he arrived, and then he had a plane to catch that evening. They all stayed later than I could, as I had to get to work in the morning. And it really didn't matter on my end, as it was hard for me to be partial, because it just sounded so much better. But as I've lived with it and listened to it more and more, I wanted to tweak a few things. And really there wasn't much done to it. They had a cut around 200 hz and another around 8k, I think. I saved the initial setting they left us with. I dialed back the 200hz cut a bit to give it a touch more fullness. And realized it was probably there because we need acoustic treatment. So I didn't go to far. And the highs were just a little lacking so I added a hi shelf of about 2.5dB at around 10k, and deepened the cut they had just a dB or so. Gave it just a bit more top end sparkle without getting harsh. About the only complaint I hear from our congregation, is it being too loud, but that usually just means the subs are up too much. I can normally bring them down a dB or two and everyone is happy again.

The integrator has talked about bringing back in the EAW tech to do a class for local church sound techs. I think he wants to also use that time dial it in a bit more, if needed, while we're all together again. If we do have the class I'll post here. Just in case there's someone that will be in the area and would like to attend. But I don't know when that will be with the current situation.

As far as events go, we did get to host a concert with 3 different acts. They all ran sound into our system. This was before I had made any tweaks. They were all very complimentary and seemed very happy with the sound. I know there wasn't any complaints from any attendees that I heard. And that's a first for any concert in our building. Including when they bring their own system. We had more concerts scheduled, but haven't been able to have them. And it may be a bit before we do.

So long story longer, so far so good. Two thumbs up.
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Opinions on EAW Radius RSX208L and Martin WPM for church
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2020, 08:28:38 PM »


Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.047 seconds with 22 queries.