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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Robert Brock on June 15, 2016, 01:41:18 PM
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I've been doing studio work for years. I recently fell into doing live sound for some pretty large gigs for a national charity. After doing a few of these gigs I decided to start a company with a partner and go all in to live sound work. What I am finding is that mostly I'm wanted for doing outdoor gigs, so I want some advice on my equipment and possibly what else I should look into. Here's what I currently have:
( 8 ) upper cabs each with ( 2 ) 12" + horn - roughly 15" wide x 32" tall
600 watt program
96 dB/1w/1m
4 ohms
( 10 ) 18" front firing subs - roughly 24" cubes
1000 watts program
101 db/1w/1m
8 ohms
( 2 ) 12" + horn cabinets
400 watts program
8 ohms
I'm running the uppers with 2 inuke nu4-6000s, which are 4 channels each with 620/840 watts each channel at 4 ohms. I'm running the subs with 2 inuke nu6000s, which are 2200/3000 watts per channel at 4 ohms (2 subs per channel). The last 2 subs I run chained from the 2 single 12" cabs (they have low passed sub outs) from 2 channels of another I-nuke nu4-6000. The other two channels of that amp are used for monitors. I'm putting 4 tops side by side on each side of the stage (horns at about 7 feet from ground) and 10 subs side by side in a long line under the stage centered. I'm delaying the subs a couple ms to align with tops. The 2 smaller cabs are inboard of the stage stacks pointed inward as front fill.
I also have a dbx driverack pa2 that I'm using for mains. I have several comp/gates for drums, a few 31 band eqs that I use for monitors, and a Yamaha mgp32x board.
I've used this set up for very large DJ type gigs. It was pretty loud on commercial mastered music with the signal just barely tickling the clip lights on the amps....so I'm pretty confident in my cabs handling low crest factor audio. These gigs were 18hrs each...... continuous obnoxious music. I had my doubts about the behringer amps, but I was pleasantly surprised.
So doing calculations I'm worried about having enough spl for live sound reinforcement of a band. Knowing that my system can handle it (and my mixing skills) I plan to do buss compression and possibly a little limiting to bring up the RMS of the live band. So I'm interested in opinions of my setup, and what I may need to change or add to do what I'm trying to do....
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Deployed per your picture you have enough rig for 4 small gigs and the wrong rig for one big one.
Model numbers on your speakers might help with suggestions. The specs as printed above are fairly meaningless in learning what overall level you can achieve.
That said its always possible your clients requirements in terms of sound quality will accommodate a deployment like this...
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What is it about the deployment that is not good for a big gig? By big gig I'm referring to a coverage area of slightly wider than the stage, maybe 60 feet back.... probably not "big" by some of your guys standards...
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Unless the uppers are designed to be arrayed,
you will have to get them at the proper splay and height and aim
to prevent some nasty comb filtering.
with out model numbers its just a pretty picture
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What is it about the deployment that is not good for a big gig? By big gig I'm referring to a coverage area of slightly wider than the stage, maybe 60 feet back.... probably not "big" by some of your guys standards...
Your speakers likely have a horn dispersion of 90ºx50º or 60ºx40º or something similar. A speaker with a 90º horizontal pattern is designed to work by itself. If you place another 90º speaker beside it they must be 'splayed' so that they are covering two separate 90º sections of the audience, essentially giving you 180º of coverage.
Unless you're using 4 boxes with about 30º of horizontal coverage (which I'm fairly certain you're not) you gain very little in db but you gain a lot of interference. It's generally a very bad idea to array your speakers this way. There was a time when it was pretty standard to just pile up as many boxes as you had available, but the audio industry as a whole has come a long way since then. If you need it to be louder than what one or two of your current speakers per side can achieve, then you need to buy one or two louder speakers.
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Unless you have individual instruments assigned to each top, you are going to have HF cancellation/interference with the cabinets aligned like that...
If you have 90' horns in those cabinets, you may be able to get away with 2 a side, just for coverage, not volume.
To cover a small area, 1 or 2 60' tops a side, properly splayed is normal deployment, but for a larger area youll have to blast the b'jesus out of the people in front to get coverage in the back. Solution: raise the cabinets up and angle them down towards the back.
96db sen speakers really aren't helping either.
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What is it about the deployment that is not good for a big gig? By big gig I'm referring to a coverage area of slightly wider than the stage, maybe 60 feet back.... probably not "big" by some of your guys standards...
I would venture to believe two tops a side, splayed correctly with or w/o front fills would be more than enough for 40x60' area.
I own 2 inuke6000dsp and have had good luck with them too. They are pretty noisy so they get used only on subs at this point.
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(Was writing this before previous response, sorry for the sorta duplicate info.)
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The cabinets are literally no-name.... I bought the whole package (8 tops, 8 subs) second hand about 10 years ago. The specs I have are whats printed on the back, but no manufacturer info.
The horns look like 40x60... but with real world listening they are super directional. Probably due to poor/ cheap cabinet design I'm guessing. They are loud and clear directly in front, but reduce in level considerably when off axis. I was hoping this might actually be a benefit in this situation. I have used them in this configuration before--- I too was worried about comb filtering, but when walking around the venue it didn't seem bad at all--- and I'm pretty sensitive to the sound of that. I could hear some, but it wasn't huge nulls or anything, just slight change in tone while I was moving. To set the angles, I walked to different positions in the audience area and had a guy on stage aim the cabs while I listened to try and reduce overlap---- I know its not very scientific, but it sounded pretty even everywhere. They didn't look exactly like the pic above... that's just a cad file that I made to help me figure out stage layout on whatever size stage they are providing. I tried them 2 on top of 2, but i have no way to angle them down so the top two were so high I couldn't really hear them.
As far as my subs, I have not used them this way before. I read a lot about it, but there's tons of conflicting info out there. I'm pretty sure I want them together in the middle, but wasn't sure if I was better off like this, or stacking them 4 on 4.
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As far as my subs, I have not used them this way before. I read a lot about it, but there's tons of conflicting info out there. I'm pretty sure I want them together in the middle, but wasn't sure if I was better off like this, or stacking them 4 on 4.
I"d stack the subs 4 on 4, you have a long enough line under the stage to start seeing the length of the sub array affect the directivity rather than summing.
Your tops are a pretty old school setup. If it sounds good and you're making money, keep doing it, but if it were my rig I would consider going to two per side of a higher output speaker like the KF650Z. There aren't many situations where you could consider the KF650 light or small, but it would probably be lighter and take less pack space than all eight of your 2x12s.
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The horns look like 40x60... but with real world listening they are super directional. Probably due to poor/ cheap cabinet design I'm guessing.
So, I have to ask, why would you want to go any further in the discussion?
Can you at least open the cabs / pull the drivers to determine what components were used? As has already been said, they likely were not designed for running side-by-side as shown in your pic.
As far as my subs, I have not used them this way before. I read a lot about it, but there's tons of conflicting info out there.
Do you have the ability to set different delay intervals per sub (or pair of subs)? Have you thought about running a cardiod configuration? There are pros and cons to a center cluster. I'd expect a lot of rumble on stage from your proposed set up.
Dave
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Post some pictures of the speakers. We might know what they are. Also if it can be done safely you may be better off to stack the Mid/highs on on top of the other with the horns coupled. ( top boxes turned upside down)
Douglas R. Allen
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So, I have to ask, why would you want to go any further in the discussion?
Can you at least open the cabs / pull the drivers to determine what components were used? As has already been said, they likely were not designed for running side-by-side as shown in your pic.
Do you have the ability to set different delay intervals per sub (or pair of subs)? Have you thought about running a cardiod configuration? There are pros and cons to a center cluster. I'd expect a lot of rumble on stage from your proposed set up.
Dave
PICS would be nice.
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As I said, I just kind of fell into this. I definitely want to change what I'm using, I just happened to have this stuff so just kind of went with it. I'm just trying to maximize what I have to work with right now. The EAW cabinets are great, but are just out of my price range:) I am making some money, and I'm saving it up for upgrades (i have a day job too), but its going to take a while. Can anyone suggest any other cabinets to use in a 2-a-side configuration that might be a little more affordable? I saw a guy near me use some QSC powered cabinets that were putting out some healthy sound...
As far as cardioid sub configs-- I haven't explored that too much because my understanding is that you lose some of the subs' output to achieve the directional control. Have I understood that right?
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Any gain in SPL using 4/side will be negligible compared to the degradation of intelligibility due to pattern overlap. Your cabinets will only exhibit pattern control in the frequencies above the woofer/tweeter crossover. Below that...mud.
The only reason to use more than two/side would be for side fills.
One more issue to consider:
Liability insurance. If you don't have it, get it. Now.
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I definitely want to change what I'm using, I just happened to have this stuff so just kind of went with it. I'm just trying to maximize what I have to work with right now.
Understood. And I hope I didn't come off as a tool for my previous comment. It's just that you're "swimming" upstream until you at least find out what you've got!
Your cabs are probably copies of some established model. How good of copies remains to be seen. It's critical to try to identify what horns you have. Look for any identification/stamping at all and report back.
As for SPL, you mentioned "outdoors", but not all outdoor gigs are created equal. Wide open spaces or between buildings on a blocked-off downtown street? Do people want to be able to talk over the program material or have their bones rattled?
I think the general guidance here is to make what you have sound as good as it can - even if it's not as loud as running all your boxes together.
Dave
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As I said, I just kind of fell into this. I definitely want to change what I'm using, I just happened to have this stuff so just kind of went with it. I'm just trying to maximize what I have to work with right now. The EAW cabinets are great, but are just out of my price range:) I am making some money, and I'm saving it up for upgrades (i have a day job too), but its going to take a while.
The best thing to do, since you just 'fell' into this would be to STOP and put together a business plan. Do not just buy more gear because you have the money. If you go down that route, you will NEVER get to a point where you are making a profit. Never, because there's always more shiny gear to purchase. Most of us have been there, done that.
Determine the market you WANT to be in, then determine what you can charge in that market, and determine what gear fits that need and price. You may find that the market you want to work in simply can't afford what it takes to do it right, and you will end up struggling financially forever.
You say that you can't afford the EAW speakers, but when you step back and look at the true cost of the speakers, it works out to only a few dollars per show difference to have high end gear versus a pile of moderate quality stuff. Having the higher end gear will make it much, MUCH easier to get the higher paying quality jobs.
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The gigs that I've done so far were wide open, on a fold out trailer stage about 30x15 feet. I did a gig like that where I was playing wedding dj type music with 2 tops and 2 subs per side, all on stage. The music was plenty loud (commercial mastered), but then I had a band come on at night. I did some buss compression to try and bring up the rms, but they weren't really loud enough. Close, but not quite. On my next gig I brought all 8 tops, and 8 subs, but still had it on stage. It was noticeably louder. I'm thinking if I have the subs on the ground centrally located, that would be better, plus my tops would be lower, and not shooting 3 ft over everyone's head. When I tell you these cabs are directional, I really mean it. They shoot sound like a flashlight- very narrow coverage which I think is why I wasn't hearing much comb filtering with that config.
I took apart one of the cabinets once and I don't remember any markings on anything.... I think they are pretty generic. I'm not a layman as far as sound quality goes, and to my ears these actually sounds pretty good. I have a measurement mic, an rta, an spl meter and a tape measure. I can take whatever measurements on and off axis that might help you guys make recommendations as to how to use my stuff to the max.
Would it be helpful at all to stack 2 high on each side instead of 4 wide?
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One thing to ascertain would be the diaphragm/voice coil diameter of the HF units. That would give you a good idea of the quality of them and how hard they can be pushed.
With low end horns (photos would help here) it's likely that the HF is fairly directional but the closer you get to the crossover frequency the less pattern control there is. Also, I'd suspect that budget no-name/homebrews have a fairly high crossover point which means that there is definitely interference between all the 12's next to each other, in both planes.
While it may play loud, and not have a severe swishing sound walking across the coverage, it will affect intelligibility. This is kind of the next layer of improvement in SR. If you were able to get an impulse response for this rig it would probably look like a mess. As people have said, it may serve the purpose for the gigs you are doing. But to build a business and go against someone with something as simple as an SM80/TH118 rig may be an uphill battle. All the outdoor gigs I have booked this summer are because after dealing with folks with piles-o-boxes, I did one show and everyone remarked that they could hear (and understand) the words.
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The gigs that I've done so far were wide open, on a fold out trailer stage about 30x15 feet. I did a gig like that where I was playing wedding dj type music with 2 tops and 2 subs per side, all on stage. The music was plenty loud (commercial mastered), but then I had a band come on at night. I did some buss compression to try and bring up the rms, but they weren't really loud enough. Close, but not quite.
One thing to understand coming to live sound from the studio is that it's easy to get loud with no open mics. With experience you'll close the gap between playback and live. Don't get carried away with compression. Live is live and does not deserve to be iSquash-ed.
On my next gig I brought all 8 tops, and 8 subs, but still had it on stage. It was noticeably louder.
If all operating parameters were equal you would realize a 3dB increase in output. Any "noticeable" increase is likely subjective.
Would it be helpful at all to stack 2 high on each side instead of 4 wide?
If you do, stack the upper cabs horns down to keep the HF drivers close by each other. And don't forget to strap them securely.
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I appreciate everyone taking their time to help me out.... I know i must seem like a moron trying to use crap cabinets and all- but I'm definitely not on the level of the rest of you:) I mostly do dj stuff and the dreaded karaoke.... and the live sound thing just kind of progressed from there. Just to put it into perspective, most of the live gigs I've done were for high school rock bands for a hundred people or so..... most of them were happy to have noise coming out of a box. I'm going to keep progressing and upgrading to better cabinets and see where it goes.
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You will be fine, everyone starts somewhere. You just happened to start in a much larger atmosphere on your own then most. Your ears are your most important tool. If it sounds good, it sounds good. Others have already pointed out the comb filtering issues sub power alley etc, so just keep an eye on that. I don't know what kind of income you are pulling in from these shows, but a pro system to rock the size your talking about is pretty spendy. Factors to look at for potential gear to purchase:
Deploymment: How many guys are you going to hire or work with. There are some loud great sounding boxes, but they weigh a ton and take specialized equipment and setups to fly if needed.
Powered or unpowered: You can mix and match. For example, you can amp your subs as they are low anyway and power hungry. Myself, I like powered boxes as they(decent ones) are usually designed so the crossover point, power distribution, alignment is optimized for the best sound and efficiency.
Cost: Buying a whole new system of that size can be costly. If you can find someone selling some nice pro box setups, you can save a lot. I see some decent setups hit craigslist once a year or so. DB, EAW etc.
Running a digital board will make your life a lot easier. With the low cost out there right now for the soundcraft expression, x32, A&H etc, I would put that high on my list if I were you.
I know this is superficial, but from a business perspective, the look of your system and setup is important. It always has to sound good, but if it looks good as well you will get higher paying gigs.
Power distribution. This is important. A good distro box and requiring the venue or promoter to supply you with enough amps on a common ground keeps your system quiet and running.
I know I've forgotten some other things, It's been a long day, but these are a few things to keep in mind as you are looking to grow and purchase more gear.
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I'm thinking if I have the subs on the ground centrally located, that would be better, plus my tops would be lower, and not shooting 3 ft over everyone's head. When I tell you these cabs are directional, I really mean it. They shoot sound like a flashlight- very narrow coverage which I think is why I wasn't hearing much comb filtering with that config.
Would it be helpful at all to stack 2 high on each side instead of 4 wide?
Actually, having the horns 3 feet over everyone's head is not a bad place to be. Lots of highs get blocked or absorbed into the waterbags (crowd) and the ground when the horns are not at least 7-8 feet off the ground. Usually, the higher the better, but then it is better to angle the speakers down to aim them in the direction of people's ears, not to shoot them over the crowd. We have speaker poles with tilting adapters to accomplish this in our rig.
I agree with other comments, that if you must have 4 mid/highs a side, stack 2 normally, and then stack the other two flipped on their tops to couple the horns together. Speakers usually array better vertically than horizontally. But then they will be near impossible to tilt down, and will need extra strapping or whatever to keep the whole mess from toppling down at a show.
If you are doing bigger indoor or outdoor shows, some of the cheapest (but heavy) used speakers you could get that would have a good reputation would be the LAB subs (lots of them floating around used, but only look for good build quality-they are DIY) and something like Community SLS 960's or EAW KF650's on top. These are designed to sound good when used in multiples (say 4 bass bins and 2 tops per side) and could cover a few thousand people depending on your desired SPL and coverage area. You might find 8 LABs and 4 of the aforementioned tops for less than $10k total if you look around, but then you'd need a good sized cube van or trailer to haul them around with. Just an idea for an upgrade that you'd notice a difference with. The advantage for your current system would be that you can more easily break it down into a small system if you need it for little places.
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Have you tried this setup yet to see how it sounds? Perhaps offer your services for a charity gig without the high expectations of a paying gig as a way of testing it out.
You can also experiment a bit such as turning half of it off to see what the difference is.
If the cabinets are DIY or just unidentified, no one will know what it will sound like just by looking and speculating. Only you can decide that by trying it.
Steve.
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In this video you can see how this guy inverted the mid/highs for more even coverage and less comb filtering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cIUeaIIpcU
Douglas R. Allen
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In my previous life as a sound provider-I used to do the same type setup with 4 tops per side.
There was a local venue of 2500 seats that I did all the time-with all different types of music-with the setup-so I knew well how it worked in the room.
I got a call to do a wedding reception in the same room.
They did not want it loud and had a limited budget.
So I took out 1 stack per side (instead of 4 per side).
The horns were 90* in the cabinets. Everything else was front loaded.
Both myself and my other main sound person were amazed at how much clearer and cleaner the single stack was vs the 4 we normally took out.
It wasn't as loud-but sounded MUCH better.
This was my start to understanding how speakers interfere with each other.
With loudspeakers-LESS IS MORE! Unless you just want to look cool----------- Then do whatever looks best.
I always try to use AS FEW loudspeakers as I can get away with-NOT as MANY.
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Perhaps the most important thing I've picked up from Ivan is to use the least amount of speaker possible. I often take out only one, especially on speech only jobs.
OTOH -I have seen numerous rigs (and not dual PAs) that should have had obvious comb filtering, but in reality had none that was noticeable to me. Again, if it sound good, it is good.
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OTOH -I have seen numerous rigs (and not dual PAs) that should have had obvious comb filtering, but in reality had none that was noticeable to me. Again, if it sound good, it is good.
The location of comb filtering depends on the frequency, so it tends not to be highly audible with program except as a loss of perceived fidelity and intelligibility. It is quite audible with pink noise - you will hear "wooshing" in the noise when you walk around. Things are a bit more complicated indoors as indirect reflected sound will fill in the holes, but will arrive later also reducing fidelity and intelligibility.
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There is a very easy way to tell exactly how much comb filtering there is. Next time you have this full rig up, play a 2-5khz sine wave at any reasonable level and walk across the dance floor area. You should hear what sounds like a fluttering of that tone. If you stop moving it will stop fluttering. Then mover your head around a little as you stand still. You may hear it start to flutter again? This is comb filtering and is the interaction of the speakers working against one another. You will more than likely find as you turn more and more speakers off that this effect gets lower and lower. If you only had one speaker on, you would not hear the effect, only the change in spl as you come in and out of the coverage area.
If you do the same thing with a lower pitch tone perhaps around 200-500hz, you may notice that it doesn't do the fluttering as much. This is because the wavelength is bigger and the speakers that reproduce that frequncy are closer in relationship to that wavelength. As you get lower and lower in pitch you will find the speakers begin to act more as one and there will be less and less comb filtering. When the speakers centers are within 1/4 of a wavelength they begin to mutually couple and no longer have comb filtering effects. When the speakers centers are beyond 1/4 - 1/2 wavelength they begin to interfere with each other and comb filtering becomes evident. This is why less is more.
As to why the SPL seemed to go up when you had more speakers. Well when you double the speakers, you essentially double the power. This means a 3db boost in output. So while there is a lot of comb filtering occurring, there is still 3db more output where there is addition. Comb filtering not only nulls output, it also couples or adds ( by up to 3db ) the output.
So it sounds like you may have a 40 X 60 box. This coverage is only for the horn portion of the box. If so, then two boxes splayed together will produce 120* of horizontal coverage. This is usually more than enough. If you can get the faces of the speaker to touch and get the needed splay, then you can reduce comb filtering for more of the mid range. These are 15" speakers it sounds like and that means that at best, the centers will be roughly 16" apart. This means that you won't have mutual coupling until about 200hz. This means above 200hz you will have comb filtering to some degree and below 200hz it should mutually couple until around the crossover point which will then be another topic. This is dependent upon sub placement and other factors.
I have been recently saying this to myself and clients: One sound, one source. The more of each you have the worse things get.
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If you do the same thing with a lower pitch tone perhaps around 200-500hz, you may notice that it doesn't do the fluttering as much. This is because the wavelength is bigger and the speakers that reproduce that frequncy are closer in relationship to that wavelength. As you get lower and lower in pitch you will find the speakers begin to act more as one and there will be less and less comb filtering. When the speakers centers are within 1/4 of a wavelength they begin to mutually couple and no longer have comb filtering effects. When the speakers centers are beyond 1/4 - 1/2 wavelength they begin to interfere with each other and comb filtering becomes evident. This is why less is more.
Indoors, once you get that low you will hear the room modes with a sine tone rather than the speakers interacting. The frequency below which that happens depends on room geometry.
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I agree with other comments, that if you must have 4 mid/highs a side, stack 2 normally, and then stack the other two flipped on their tops to couple the horns together. Speakers usually array better vertically than horizontally. But then they will be near impossible to tilt down, and will need extra strapping or whatever to keep the whole mess from toppling down at a show.
I've flipped speakers over and done this, but only two per side. It would seem that a dual 12 or dual 15 would put the woofers significantly out of time alignment and depending on how far away you were from the PA the time difference would change. further away the delay differences less but as you get closer the top woofer may be feet away from the bottom cab woofer(s). Is that somehow less destructive than horizontal combing?
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I've flipped speakers over and done this, but only two per side. It would seem that a dual 12 or dual 15 would put the woofers significantly out of time alignment and depending on how far away you were from the PA the time difference would change. further away the delay differences less but as you get closer the top woofer may be feet away from the bottom cab woofer(s). Is that somehow less destructive than horizontal combing?
If you're close enough for that to make a difference you'll have other, more serious problems.
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If you're close enough for that to make a difference you'll have other, more serious problems.
So the two outermost woofers being as far as 6 feet from each other on the vertical plane is no more destructive, or less than if they were 6 feet away from each other on the horizontal?
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So the two outermost woofers being as far as 6 feet from each other on the vertical plane is no more destructive, or less than if they were 6 feet away from each other on the horizontal?
In general, this is true in my understanding. The more critical frequencies for audible comb filtering are in the horn range, and we are trying to reduce the effect by coupling to the extent we can. The conical pattern of the mid woofers will have some overlap and destructive interference, but no worse than the side arrayed version. When vertically aligned, the mid-high cabinets come closer (albeit imperfectly) to a line source.
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This is all such great information, I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out. Right now all of this rig is in storage, so far I've only used it a few times this year- I have some smaller stuff that I use for the dj and karaoke gigs. In the next week or two I'm going to grab all the stuff and set it up in my back yard. I have some multitrack audio from the studio that I can run through it to simulate a band (not compressed to shit) and try some different set ups. I liked the video someone posted showing the guy putting two tops at 90 degrees with two vertically on top, top one upside down. That seems like a good compromise to reduce iterference and still get spl from 4 a side. I noticed that that guy put his subs all in a line across the front, like I had in the cad file in the first post. Is it better to do this (I have ten) or do 5 on top of 5? When I set it up I'll try different ways and see what is better I guess, I would just like to know the reasoning behind it....
Also, I've been looking at specs of speakers, trying to get an idea of what's out there in my price range. I looked at the qrx212/75 as an upgrade to my current boxes. When I do the math with the sensitivity and the peak wattage, I get the same max spl figures they show. My question is when I look at jbl, they have much lower sensitivity figures and when I do the math I get much lower spl numbers than they are showing. Are they just bullshiting or am I not getting something? I'm using the (log (peak wattage)x10)+sensitivity.....
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Also, I've been looking at specs of speakers, trying to get an idea of what's out there in my price range. I looked at the qrx212/75 as an upgrade to my current boxes. When I do the math with the sensitivity and the peak wattage, I get the same max spl figures they show. My question is when I look at jbl, they have much lower sensitivity figures and when I do the math I get much lower spl numbers than they are showing. Are they just bullshiting or am I not getting something? I'm using the (log (peak wattage)x10)+sensitivity.....
Can you put some context to this? What sensitivity/wattage/spl figures are you using? What JBL model?
What is your budget? Once we know that we can recommend some speakers that will work for you.
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At this point I'm just poking around to see whats out there. This is one that I looked at:
http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=193
It shows 102db for the sensitivity and 2600 watts peak. When I do the math:
(log(2600) X 10))+102 = 136db max
They list 135 or 136 db max depending on where you look.
Now with this one:
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/portable-market/srx800-passive-series/srx835#Specs
They list 95db sensitivity and 3200 watt peak
(log(3200) X 10)) + 95 = 130db max
They list it at 137db max - how is that possible?
Anyway, I'm looking to get 4 tops that i can run 2 a side and have enough spl for smallish outdoor live band reinforcement (with my current subs). I'd like to keep it in the area of $5-6000 if its possible. any suggestions would be great.
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Anytime you run 2 per side it should really be for wider coverage as you will NOT get more coherent output covering the same space.
With that budget I would get 2x SM80 (1 per side) and call it a day. The specs on paper are somewhat conservative (or they're just 'accurate' and others are exaggerated, depending on how you look at it) but they will outperform any QRX or SRX by a wide margin.
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The area I'm trying to cover is roughly 50' wide by 100' deep from stage. I'm doing mostly rock bands in this context, so I generally want it loud. I'm not sure what is considered normal for that, but I'm thinking 100-110 db in the back? At 110 I think k I need like 140 up front, which seems crazy..... for 100 i think I need 130 up front. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
The stages are usually like 4-5 feet high, so id put the subs on the ground like I asked about before, and probably stack the tops directly on the stage. With dual speaker cabs like I have now that puts the horns between 7 and 8 feet high.
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The area I'm trying to cover is roughly 50' wide by 100' deep from stage. I'm doing mostly rock bands in this context, so I generally want it loud. I'm not sure what is considered normal for that, but I'm thinking 100-110 db in the back? At 110 I think k I need like 140 up front, which seems crazy..... for 100 i think I need 130 up front. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
SPL numbers with other "pieces" of information are pretty much worthless.
You MUST state the weighting and time constant for them to mean anything.
YOU, may have an idea what you mean-but others don't or they may use a different "standard".
For example, you can take the same band/song and get up to a 30dB difference in SPL-depending on how you measure it- Fast/slow/peak A or C weighted etc make a BIG difference in what " simple number you give
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So then can you give me specifics of what I should be shooting for given a rock band in an outdoor venue roughly 50ft wide by 100ft deep. Please take no offense to this, but just telling me I'm wrong isn't really helping...
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I'm figuring audio with a crest value of probably 12db, since I'll probably be using a little buss compression. With rock music using that spec, how loud do I need to be for a venue the size I just listed? People giving me suggestions on speakers is great, but I also want to know the math/ science behind the choices so I can make informed desicsions on my own if the parameters change.
I'm trying to learn..... I know there are people here that can get a gig like this and know immediately what equipment they want to use and how well it will work. I'm trying to get to that point.... understanding what I need to accomplish and how to use the specs or whatever to figure out how to get there.
I'm trying to avoid the dreaded situation where I set everything up and then realize (too late) that it's not loud enough for the environment that I am in. I don't just want to thbrow money at it and get way too much rig.... I want to understand how to figure this stuff out.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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So then can you give me specifics of what I should be shooting for given a rock band in an outdoor venue roughly 50ft wide by 100ft deep. Please take no offense to this, but just telling me I'm wrong isn't really helping...
Channeling Ivan...it depends.
Rather than guessing according to the minimal information provided you will likely be informed bit by bit of the relevant info required. Internet ping-pong takes a while, so you'll have to endure a long time-line in learning what basics apply. Best is to find an experienced sound person in your area, hire them for a couple of gigs and get schooled on-site for your SPECIFIC requirements.
Such things as deployment, power/processing and basic live mix techniques will all come into play. Compromises WILL have to be made and applying them to best effect is not something you can get quickly and free over the Nintershnet.
Again, the best way to learn is from a live teacher. HIRE HELP and pay attention. If you're going to do it as a business you don't want your clients to suffer through the steep learning curve ahead of you. Any rep you get starts with day one.
Don't forget the liability insurance...
Edit: simultaneous post
Get your speakers up high, point them down at the audience. This will even out the SPL over the area a good bit. You'll find this difficult with the speakers you have, but scaffolding is helpful. With your horns 7' in the air pointing straight out you'll have it hot up front..which may be OK or not so much. The sad fact is you'll only get your "rock level" sound out to about 50' even if you elevate the speakers and aim them at the 50' median.
Forget mix compression as a way to make it louder. You'll lose dynamics and overall headroom. This ain't the studio.
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I can appreciate what your saying about working with an experienced sound guy... that's probably good advice. In my situation, running the system is not really the problem. I'm basically confused on how much/what kind of speakers to bring. maybe I could phrase the question differently:
A client asks you to provide sound for a rock show at a wide open outdoor event. the coverage area is 50' wide by 100' deep. what are you going to bring and why?
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I can appreciate what your saying about working with an experienced sound guy... that's probably good advice. In my situation, running the system is not really the problem. I'm basically confused on how much/what kind of speakers to bring. maybe I could phrase the question differently:
A client asks you to provide sound for a rock show at a wide open outdoor event. the coverage area is 50' wide by 100' deep. what are you going to bring and why?
Too many variables and a whole lot of undefinable subjective terminology.
What SPL over how much of the area? Where does it have to be loud? Do you need the same SPL over the entire area? What else is making noise in the are? Heavy highway traffic? Carnival rides? Other stages?
Once you decide which larger system you're going to rent (yours won't do it mostly because it's basically an indoor system) will you have enough power on site to run the rig?
A WAG given your description of your gear would be that you need something flyable with 2x-3x the output you'll get with your no-name traps.
Sorry, but if you want to use what you have, set your mix position 50' out and take your 4 extra tops 2/side in line with the stage mains, set up two more sections of scaffolding at 55-60' and run delay stacks to un-wimp the sound at the back.
Or get the presenter to move the stage to the side so it'll be 50' deep and 100' wide. Then you'll stand a chance.
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Ok, so I've pretty much moved on from the speakers that I currently have. I'm looking toward what I should be getting. The 100ft deep venue is probably pretty extreme, its more likely in the 50-60ft range. I would say that people at that distance would not be expecting ear splitting levels. with the types of events I'm talking about, flying cabs is not an option. It needs to be more like this video an earlier poster put up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cIUeaIIpcU
This appears to be a much larger coverage area than what i am referring to. What i am looking to do is a configuration similar to what I posted originally, but with higher output speakers?, between 2 and 4 a side. Background noise will be limited to basically what people are capable of making---- no rides or heavy traffic.
I know clients don't generally know technical aspects of sound, they are relying on the sound company to know. so when presented with a requirement like I laid out above---- rock bands-50x50 coverage area-- ground stacks only--- what would be your go to system. Im trying to get ideas of what people would use with these constraints so I know in what direction I should be looking as far as upgrading my equipment.
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If you're going to keep changing the requirements this is a waste of time. You'll do what you'll do.
Good luck, BE INSURED FOR LIABILITY. To do less is criminal.
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sorry for wasting your time, you are obviously very busy and important. I do have insurance, by the way.
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maybe I could phrase the question differently:
A client asks you to provide sound for a rock show at a wide open outdoor event. the coverage area is 50' wide by 100' deep. what are you going to bring and why?
A system for AC/DC for that size is quite different than a system for the "local rock band down the street at their first gig".
Also the budget is very different.
Without a budget as a "target", it is easy to suggest an overkill system. But that may not be realistic for you or your client.
What are they willing to spend for the show?
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sorry for wasting your time, you are obviously very busy and important. I do have insurance, by the way.
Event liability or just your equipment?
Is all your AC cabling event rated?
Do you know how to check the power for safe operation? You're dealing with peoples lives here.
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Id like to get 2 or 4 tops with a budget of around $5000-$6000.
I don't mean to change the requirements--- its just that with the foldout stage you cant hang anything. After my post about 100 ft, i thought a bit more about it.... the stage was 28 feet wide at the gig that i wasn't quite loud enough. the crowd wasn't 4 stage-widths away from it... so i revised it to 50-60 ft. which is more representative of what I'm trying to prepare for.
I believe my subs are loud enough, that didn't seem to be much of a problem. what I'm getting at is, for instance, the 2-12 ev cabs I put a link up for earlier--- those I'm expecting to be possibly twice as loud as the cabs I currently have. If I were to use 2 a side, either splayed properly to reduce interference, or stacked (as someone mentioned) with the top one upside down, does it appear that I may be loud enough for my requirement? I understand the concept of raising the cabs and pointing downward as a way of attempting to equalize the distance between the front and the back--- so i may be able to stand mount them somehow---I have the ability/resources to make custom stands if need be. I could probably get the horns 10-12 feet high under those circumstances- but I would rather stack them on the stage (horns probably 8 feet high) as its less complicated and let people move where they want to based on their preferred listening level (if its crazy loud up front.)
As far as insurance, I have 1/2 mil liability policy. At the gigs I have done I have required a licensed electrician inspect/setup the power and distro box, and i run multiple 10 gauge cables from there to my meager (so far) power requirements. I haven't had any problems in that department so far...
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---I have the ability/resources to make custom stands if need be.
I'll beat someone else to it. Unless you've got some type of engineering degree, don't do this. No amount of money saved is worth risking injury to yourself or others.
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I'll beat someone else to it. Unless you've got some type of engineering degree, don't do this. No amount of money saved is worth risking injury to yourself or others.
Yep
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I actually do--- and my day job is I run the manufacturing division of a multinational, multimillion dollar company. That's the only reason I mentioned it...
I agree that normally it wouldn't be a good idea:)
And to be honest, I don't really want to....unless it's deemed absolutely necessary for whatever reason.
Also someone mentioned it's different for acdc vs local band..... I'm doing local bands- no big name stuff:)
The whole reason I started this was really less about the money and more about my buddy and I having fun and having something to do in our spare time. If it builds into a big profit company then great.... but if it doesn't I'm ok with that too. It all kind of snowballed from a couple charity events that I did for American Cancer society. I'm a cancer survivor and though it would be a good thing to give back in the way of FREE services for those events. We had so much fun doing it that we decided to start a little llc to keep going with it- we decided any money we made would get reinvested in it. So far it's been going well doing dj and karaoke stuff mostly. As a studio guy I wanted to get into live sound, so I did a few gigs and here we are, in case anybody was curious how I ended up here:)
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And actually, the only reason I have all these speakers is because a guy I knew was down on his luck and needed money so I bought it all from him even though at the time I had no idea what I was actually going to do with any of it
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Robert...
The QRX boxes are nice and have the HF asymmetrically oriented at about 10 degrees down requiring less tilt, but they are still rated by the manufacturer for medium sized rooms, i.e. indoor usage. You're probably right that they'll be better than what you have, but probably not twice as loud. "loudness" is a bit of a nebulous term. Bottom line is that for a sound to be PERCEIVED as twice as loud it requires a 10dB increase in output. The math says that 3 or 6 dB will have twice as much energy, but to the listener it's gonna take 10.
I think what you need to look for in any multiple cabinet setup is pattern control/array-ability. This basically means horn-loaded cabs with pattern control as low as you can get it, allowing you to use multiple cabinets/side with less overlap over a greater frequency range and consequent improved fidelity/intelligibility.
EAW, Community and others can be found used. Newer stuff? Check out the previously mentioned Danley gear and remember that the fewer cabs you can use to achieve the desired SPL, the better it should sound.
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The EV QRX 212's do have installed fly points and track that are designed for safe speaker rigging in the air, and that's a start if you want to go that route.
Before I would consider designing a custom frame or yoke for the purpose of raising speakers (and I am a licensed professional engineer and have access to a bunch of licensed structural engineers), I would contact a company like Polar Focus, once I decided what it was I intended to do, and see if there is a commercially available system that would do what I wanted, and was already engineered with safety features in mind. They could tell you how to safely rig everything and to stabilize whatever lift system you go with.
Once you start elevating everything, there are lots of advantages. However, the cost of the stands and the rigging can easily be equal or greater than the cost of the speakers, depending on the weight of what you are raising and the height and maneuverability you want.
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I appreciate the thoughtful response, that's exactly the kind of information I've been looking for. The reason I got "twice as loud" was just from doing the math. Based on the limited specs on my current cabs, which very well may be inflated, compared to the qrx cabs there seem to be about a 10 DB difference in Peak output.
looking on the net I came across this:
Billfitzmaurice.com
They have horn loaded cabs like what I believe you're referring to. According to the specs they have some pretty crazy sensitivity and output, so it might be a viable option considering my manufacturing capabilities at possibly a lower monetary investment on my part. It might be fun/rewarding to build my own cabs too.....Unless it's all crap and just marketing hype.
Otherwise, I'll keep checking the 2nd hand market.... I might get lucky.
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I think thats good advice.... the diy option was just a passing thought. The whole stand rigging stuff just seems like it going to be too much involved.... no longer much fun. I could be wrong, but I think that is probably a step up from where I'm trying to be... I think I'll leave that to the big boys. I'm happy doing the smaller gigs.... I think if I can get a system that can be stacked like I mentioned and get reasonably loud sound for local rock bands outside I would be happy... assuming that's possible. I like the idea of horn loaded cabs so I can cluster together like I was originally failing at.
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I appreciate the thoughtful response, that's exactly the kind of information I've been looking for. The reason I got "twice as loud" was just from doing the math. Based on the limited specs on my current cabs, which very well may be inflated, compared to the qrx cabs there seem to be about a 10 DB difference in Peak output.
looking on the net I came across this:
Billfitzmaurice.com
They have horn loaded cabs like what I believe you're referring to. According to the specs they have some pretty crazy sensitivity and output, so it might be a viable option considering my manufacturing capabilities at possibly a lower monetary investment on my part. It might be fun/rewarding to build my own cabs too.....Unless it's all crap and just marketing hype.
Otherwise, I'll keep checking the 2nd hand market.... I might get lucky.
Ahem...
BF is generally considered BS...crap and marketing hype. Maybe OK for home use, not pro.
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Id like to get 2 or 4 tops with a budget of around $5000-$6000.
I don't mean to change the requirements--- its just that with the foldout stage you cant hang anything. After my post about 100 ft, i thought a bit more about it.... the stage was 28 feet wide at the gig that i wasn't quite loud enough. the crowd wasn't 4 stage-widths away from it... so i revised it to 50-60 ft. which is more representative of what I'm trying to prepare for.
I believe my subs are loud enough, that didn't seem to be much of a problem. what I'm getting at is, for instance, the 2-12 ev cabs I put a link up for earlier--- those I'm expecting to be possibly twice as loud as the cabs I currently have. If I were to use 2 a side, either splayed properly to reduce interference, or stacked (as someone mentioned) with the top one upside down, does it appear that I may be loud enough for my requirement? I understand the concept of raising the cabs and pointing downward as a way of attempting to equalize the distance between the front and the back--- so i may be able to stand mount them somehow---I have the ability/resources to make custom stands if need be. I could probably get the horns 10-12 feet high under those circumstances- but I would rather stack them on the stage (horns probably 8 feet high) as its less complicated and let people move where they want to based on their preferred listening level (if its crazy loud up front.)
As far as insurance, I have 1/2 mil liability policy. At the gigs I have done I have required a licensed electrician inspect/setup the power and distro box, and i run multiple 10 gauge cables from there to my meager (so far) power requirements. I haven't had any problems in that department so far...
You seem to have your shit together for someone that doesn't know how to pick speakers or price or gigs. You are charging enough to have a licensed electrician and making money? That's quite a few levels up the rung.
I think the question about budget and bands is valid. So many events are different sizes. I have found that I generally work for the band not the event so if the band plays certain venues and does a few outdoor shows. You seem to be going at it a different way. You want to market yourself to the event?
In that case the budget question is so relevant. A church carnival is not going to pay what the city pays for the concerts in the park. For outdoor shows of the size you mention one provider in town with hang a dozen Nexo boxes a side, another would bring their D&B (they do all the Rock Hall work)
WRT video, I think that may have been a promotional video but anyway if you look closely they splayed the bottom speakers real far and reverse stacked the center stack. Best case they are only getting 3 more DB for using double the speakers so the question I propose is wouldn't it be less expensive to get a single box with more capability? It will sure sound better.
The modularity is a bit of a trap. Great 12" powered boxes for the bar gigs are sub $800.00 No $800 speaker is capable of any type of array. If you buy at speaker that at least claims to have the ability to array you will be spending 3 times that. So you have less inventory but have spent more money.
It is best to have your powered SoS inventory and have a good set of larger speakers for the bigger gigs. the SM-80's are well thought of, maybe the powered SRX835P's
Your subs can be modular across your inventory. Subs couple well.
I am just repeating in a different order what everyone else has told you.
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Horn loaded subs do work. The snail things BF comes up with aren't for sound reinforcement.
The JTR Orbit shifter and Danley Th118 mentioned are examples of horn subs that do work. There are a few DIY plans out there like the guy who came up with his own version of the Th18 or Art Welter's Keystone sub. These are nearly the size and weight of a 2-18 but you save the cost of the 2nd driver. Good 18" drivers are ~$400. There's a reasonable amount of woodworking involved as well. You don't want to go to all the trouble of building one of these and then putting a $200 driver in them and not getting the full potential performance. A possible size/weight/output DIY compromise is the Cubo Sub. I have four of these. A bit peaky at 60Hz. Efficiency somewhere between the true tapped horn subs and a ported box. Less complex horn path to build as well. The only DIY tops I could envision working for you would be Peter Morris' DIY mid/high. Although the drivers for that cost a fortune and you still have to deal with DSPs and crossovers.
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In regard to the outdoor events that I have done.... they were for big charities. My roll was to host the event, play music, run karaoke, make announcements, run contests and races, etc., and run sound for a couple bands all during a super long, all night, 18 hour gig. As far as the electrician, I didn't pay him... I told the organizers that I required it and they had it all setup. I got there in the morning when the electrician was there and made sure he understood what I wanted, just in case the organizers relayed the message wrong....
I may have misunderstood something, but when the idea of horn loaded cabs came up, I thought we were talking about tops to get more pattern control allowing multiple cabs to be deployed together. I see the last two posters referring to subs.... am I wrong about that?
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I like the idea of horn loaded cabs so I can cluster together like I was originally failing at.
DO NOT assume that just because it is a "horn cabinet" that you can array them. At least in a way that actually works.
Here is a starting tip for arrayability.
What are the rated angles of the horn and what is the angle the cabinet is cut at?
The cut angle needs to be 1/2 of the rated pattern.
So if the rated angle is 60*, then the horn walls need to be 30*.
Also to be arrayable, the horns need to be large. If they are not large-then there is no pattern control as you go down in freq.
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Hi Robert, I'll try to throw a constructive two cents into the pot here, but after watching this thread grow all day I've noticed a few inconsistencies with what I think you're trying to achieve. Allow me to paste a few of your responses together. I am in no way trying to misconstrue what you've said, put words in your mouth, or take what you've said out of context - more just summarize what your needs seem to be so far... And no, this isn't in perfect order - just trying to consolidate all of this in some semblance of logic.
The gigs that I've done so far were wide open, on a fold out trailer stage about 30x15 feet. I did a gig like that where I was playing wedding dj type music with 2 tops and 2 subs per side, all on stage. The music was plenty loud (commercial mastered), but then I had a band come on at night. On my next gig I brought all 8 tops, and 8 subs, but still had it on stage.
.... the stage was 28 feet wide at the gig that i wasn't quite loud enough. the crowd wasn't 4 stage-widths away from it... so i revised it to 50-60 ft. which is more representative of what I'm trying to prepare for.
So is this a fair 'average stage' for you?
Would it be helpful at all to stack 2 high on each side instead of 4 wide?
If I were to use 2 a side, either splayed properly to reduce interference, or stacked (as someone mentioned) with the top one upside down, does it appear that I may be loud enough for my requirement?
Id like to get 2 or 4 tops with a budget of around $5000-$6000.
Anyway, I'm looking to get 4 tops that i can run 2 a side and have enough spl for smallish outdoor live band reinforcement (with my current subs).
I've pretty much moved on from the speakers that I currently have. I'm looking toward what I should be getting.
What i am looking to do is a configuration similar to what I posted originally, but with higher output speakers?, between 2 and 4 a side.
You seem very fixated on the number of speakers per side. I didn't copy every quote, but at least half of your replies so far involve language like "4 per side, 2 per side, 2 on 2 per side, etc.". As others have already tried to explain, this isn't how you generally size a system. You might be surprised just how well a single speaker per side will work when said speaker is chosen correctly for the job at hand.
I have the ability/resources to make custom stands if need be.
As far as insurance, I have 1/2 mil liability policy. At the gigs I have done I have required a licensed electrician inspect/setup the power and distro box, and i run multiple 10 gauge cables from there to my meager (so far) power requirements. I haven't had any problems in that department so far...
As far as the electrician, I didn't pay him...
Oh dear... I sure hope someone paid your electrician! As others have already told you with strong emphasis, don't make custom stands. I'm an engineer at my day job too, and even still this would never be an option to me. I'm glad to hear you have insurance, but this is a great way to get to use it... Are all your cables code compliant for use in live entertainment?
I bought the whole package (8 tops, 8 subs) second hand about 10 years ago.
And actually, the only reason I have all these speakers is because a guy I knew was down on his luck and needed money so I bought it all from him even though at the time I had no idea what I was actually going to do with any of it
The EAW cabinets are great, but are just out of my price range:) I am making some money, and I'm saving it up for upgrades (i have a day job too), but its going to take a while.
The whole reason I started this was really less about the money and more about my buddy and I having fun and having something to do in our spare time. If it builds into a big profit company then great.... but if it doesn't I'm ok with that too. It all kind of snowballed from a couple charity events that I did for American Cancer society. I'm a cancer survivor and though it would be a good thing to give back in the way of FREE services for those events.
Right now all of this rig is in storage, so far I've only used it a few times this year
So basically, piecing all of this together, you need a decently large sound system, have limited experience deploying said system, have no plans to make the investment back, and would only use this system a few times a year? Everything about this screams "rental" to me. Use the system you have for the jobs it can handle, and rent or subcontract out the sound system for the jobs it can't. That way you won't be dropping thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars into a system that will hardly be used, you'll be able to observe others deploying the system you think you want and can learn from them, and will have the benefit of being able to choose the right rig for each gig instead of trying to shoehorn what you can afford into a one system fits all situation. I really don't mean for this to come off in a negative connotation! We all have to start somewhere!
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To the OP
I have a QRX212 system. Most times I use 2 per side. I bi-amp the cabinets.
For years I placed them on scaffold with the horns up at about 8' and they were splayed at an angle I determined as best compromise using the spectrograph of SMAART.
Of late, I am using some crank stands with t-bars and brackets that set the splay using the built in fly track on the speakers. I now get the horns up to 11-12' with a little tilt down (the fly track position does the tilt). Makes for more even coverage (and, incidentally easier deployment).
That all said, I can't make Rock & Roll levels for a large outside space with these. I can make good sound pretty loud at 50' feet out. Indoors, the rig is killer.
One common reference is that if you have a rig that works well indoors, it will take 4 times that for outdoors as you have to compensate for the lack of reflections.
As others have said, you need to figure out how loud you need it at what distance. Then you can calculate what the speakers need to be.
If the speakers can pole mount and safely tilt down a bit, then it is not too expensive to get 13' crank stands. Taller goes up in price.
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Regarding getting the QRX212 up in the air:
(http://audiopyle.com/QRX212_totem.jpg)
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To the OP
I have a QRX212 system. Most times I use 2 per side. I bi-amp the cabinets.
For years I placed them on scaffold with the horns up at about 8' and they were splayed at an angle I determined as best compromise using the spectrograph of SMAART.
Of late, I am using some crank stands with t-bars and brackets that set the splay using the built in fly track on the speakers. I now get the horns up to 11-12' with a little tilt down (the fly track position does the tilt). Makes for more even coverage (and, incidentally easier deployment).
That all said, I can't make Rock & Roll levels for a large outside space with these. I can make good sound pretty loud at 50' feet out. Indoors, the rig is killer.
One common reference is that if you have a rig that works well indoors, it will take 4 times that for outdoors as you have to compensate for the lack of reflections.
As others have said, you need to figure out how loud you need it at what distance. Then you can calculate what the speakers need to be.
If the speakers can pole mount and safely tilt down a bit, then it is not too expensive to get 13' crank stands. Taller goes up in price.
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What crank stands do you use? Where did you get them?
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What crank stands do you use? Where did you get them?
Global ST132 from Mike Pyle.
I got a K&M top hat from Mike and had a custom t-bar made.
Mobility wheels idea from Michael Christy.
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Regarding getting the QRX212 up in the air:
(http://audiopyle.com/QRX212_totem.jpg)
How do you get them up there?
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How do you get them up there?
I would guess they attached the speakers to the top plate of the truss using M10(?) screws into the fly points on the bottom of the speaker while on the ground, and then just tilted the whole assembly upright.
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I would guess they attached the speakers to the top plate of the truss using M10(?) screws into the fly points on the bottom of the speaker while on the ground, and then just tilted the whole assembly upright.
He has L-track parts with female threads. Yes, he bolts it up, then stands it up. He described it a while back in another thread.
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The EAW cabinets are great, but are just out of my price range:) I am making some money, and I'm saving it up for upgrades (i have a day job too), but its going to take a while. Can anyone suggest any other cabinets to use in a 2-a-side configuration that might be a little more affordable? I saw a guy near me use some QSC powered cabinets that were putting out some healthy sound...
This past weekend we brought out our older EV T252+/EAW SB850r system for a show in a park for about 1000 people. It is very similar to what you have, dual 15" top cabs with a 1.4" 60/40 exit horn trapezoid cabinets. The subs are dual 18" 2000 watt RCF P300/P400. We set it up with (2) EV/EAW cabs per side and it sounds great for DJ/Jazz/Blues at a moderate level. It should be noted that we are using all Crown MacroTechs on this system. This little system is great for what it does, but I won't do anything bigger then what we did this weekend.
Best advice is figure out where you reasonably want to go show wise and create a reasonable upgrade plan to get there.
Bill
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This past weekend we brought out our older EV T252+/EAW SB850r system for a show in a park for about 1000 people. It is very similar to what you have, dual 15" top cabs with a 1.4" 60/40 exit horn trapezoid cabinets. The subs are dual 18" 2000 watt RCF P300/P400. We set it up with (2) EV/EAW cabs per side and it sounds great for DJ/Jazz/Blues at a moderate level. It should be noted that we are using all Crown MacroTechs on this system. This little system is great for what it does, but I won't do anything bigger then what we did this weekend.
Best advice is figure out where you reasonably want to go show wise and create a reasonable upgrade plan to get there.
Bill
Bill...
Small world. My concert rig is 4xT-251+'s over 4x SB-180's all driven with MacroTechs. Great fidelity with the nice, open EV sound. As you say, great for jazz, 'grass and power acoustic performance. Good SPL out to 100' for street fests where you have 2 story buildings on either side. I'd hit peaks up to 103dBA 75' out for kickin' R&B, but I'd need another 10dB headroom for rock.
I don't do rock...
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Bill...
Small world. My concert rig is 4xT-251+'s over 4x SB-180's all driven with MacroTechs. Great fidelity with the nice, open EV sound. As you say, great for jazz, 'grass and power acoustic performance.
Dick, sounds like a great system. We are sending the (4) T252s and (4) SB850s to a 4th of July show in Kentucky. We have done this one for several years and in the time that we have we have paid for the T252s and the SB850s that go with it. Like I said this system doesn't work all of the time, only 4 or 5 times a year, however, it has paid for itself several times over.
We do some good sized Rock shows, 3,000 - 6,000 people, but depending on where we are it is the EAW KF850/SB1000 system or the EAW KF730/SB1000 system. It's all about the right tool for the job.
Bill
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Global ST132 from Mike Pyle.
I got a K&M top hat from Mike and had a custom t-bar made.
Mobility wheels idea from Michael Christy.
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Hey Rob, do you have any pictures of this setup? I've got the same cabs and have been trying to figure the best way to get them higher. Feel free to PM me.
Thanks, Mike
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Hey Rob, do you have any pictures of this setup? I've got the same cabs and have been trying to figure the best way to get them higher. Feel free to PM me.
Thanks, Mike
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Here is one. Might need a higher res pic though.
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Hey Rob, do you have any pictures of this setup? I've got the same cabs and have been trying to figure the best way to get them higher. Feel free to PM me.
Thanks, Mike
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Here is a closeup. I have since added 4" of chain to the hang so I can launch em off cable cases.
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