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Author Topic: Old auto-former lighting system  (Read 4799 times)

Tom Bourke

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Old auto-former lighting system
« on: May 11, 2004, 10:38:28 PM »

I was recently asked to look at an old stage at one of the local schools.  It is one of those stage in the gym kind of stages.  The lighting system is 3 rows of strip lights over the stage controlled by a mechanical auto former system, at least I hope it is auto former and not rheostat.  There are no front lights other than the foot lights.  I turned on the system and about 12 out of 80 or so lights came up.  The control system has 20 or so dimmers and a switching matrix (multi-position rotary switches) and breakers for routing.  The whole system is 8 ft long and 6 ft tall.

My initial thought was that if they wanted to resurrect this stage they would need to replace the dimming system with something modern and add some front lights.  However I am now having second thoughts on that.  The intended use for the stage is Junior high band  and choir performances.  No theater or other complex lighting needed.  I am thinking it may be cost effective to repair the system as is.  And ether use the foot lights or add some front lights (there are extra circuits in the strips for spot lights.)  I run another theater in the district and I know there are instruments available to put there.  From looking at it I am thinking that replacing lamps (standard light bulbs up there) and fuses plus some cleaning may go a long way toward getting it usable.  Even if I only get 1/2 the strip lights working that would be enough.

So do any of you have any thoughts on resurrecting the system?  Also, what about using the foot lights?  I have very little experience using them on stage.  If I can get them working would it look good on the band or choir?


BTW it was a cool felling to pull the 2 ft long master fade lever and watch all the handels move!!!
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Brian Ship

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Re: Old auto-former lighting system
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2004, 11:50:10 PM »

You have walked back in time for certain.  This place must be quite the museum.  Take and post lots of pictures.

Dimmers no matter how old need maintinence.  If such thing can be serviced by someone experienced in what's needed byond a vacuum than they might again be safe to use.  For parts, Vara-Light/Dimatronics/Hub Electric (Old parts Dist., ??? Owned by Altman) 6207 Commercial Rd. Crystal Lake, Il. 60014.  (815)455-4400 would be the primary location for parts on them.

Same with the cyc and foot lights.  Often the wiring in them will be toast between lamp bases and wiring.  Look especially at how melted away or charred that lamp base is.  Lots of work to do might be the norm, but the parts are standardized and otherwise easy to replace or fabricate.  Leviton might become your best friend as a lamp base supplier for them given it's going to take a blow torch to melt the solder/lead off the terminals.  250c TGGT heat wire will be a suitable replacement for the asbestos you will probably find.  The foot lights once you clean out the duck poop (oops, my own experience) should also be similar in problems to the cyc lights.  Given they are A-Lamps, you might also be able to upgrade to PAR or R lamps still.  Often such fixtures are very able to take a more efficient reflector type lamp.

Your system is probably also going to be un-grounded, but most likely the wiring to it is going to be in excellent condition as long as you don't move it a lot.  Same with any internal asbestos wiring.  If you don't need to move it it might not be needed to be changed.  Long debate.

Still if your idea is to design with such a system after it's saved from rust under dust bunnies, it should still work the same as when installed.  It's also possible and Ron Hebbard would be an expert on this along with most details about old systems, to make your dimmers dual manual and analog thus DMX controlled.  Foot lights might give a more ghastly effect thus should be kept on a low level, strip lights more a wash and also harsh shadows but good illumination once supplemented by side lights and more directional lighting.

Main cautions I would have is electrical safety in both being non-grounded and archaic in code compliance or safety such as holes patched people can stick their fingers into and get shocked.  Plus the rigging of the entire system.  Be very careful with the rigging, such details might be in good shape but could also be just as interesting as the circuits that don't work.  Along with improvements in technology and electrical standards, rigging standards have also improved be it counterweight or dead weight.

Given Ron has not posted on the new forum yet, you might hit him up off the old one.  Otherwise if I can be of help you can contact me amongst hopefully many others with similar and better things to investigate or look into with your captured history.  Dropped a dimmer similar to the one you describe once.  I do believe that it broke thru part of the floor.  Still have some dimmers and especially knobs to those I took apart for spare parts or just to fit into a dumpster.  Fun and interesting things.
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Rob Timmerman

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Re: Old auto-former lighting system
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2004, 09:35:45 PM »

When does the stage date from?  If it's before about 1940, the dimmers are probably resistance dimmers; autotransformer dimmers didn't come out until 1938-1939, and electronic dimming came out in the 1970s.  The gauge of the wiring is probably appropriate, just be careful about the insulation, which is likely asbestos, rubber, or woven cloth.  That said, the wiring is probably in conduit, which would make replacement easy.

I've worked with similar systems, where the rigging was unsafe (dated from the thirties, single crosby on backwards, etc.), the multicable going to the electrics had a bad (likely shorted) circuit, and no proper strain-relief, and the (disappearing) footlights BADLY needed vacuuming.  Make sure that the system is safe, both electrically and mechanically.

You DON'T want footlights to be your only source of frontlight, as, in my experience, footlights are only good for lighting curtains and making people look unnnatural.  Plus, footlights get kicked/stepped on.  Put some actual front light in, but place it such that it won't be in the eyes of musicians looking at the conductor downstage center.  

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Tim Padrick

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Re: Old auto-former lighting system
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2004, 05:47:18 AM »

I cannot imagine that you could repair one of the old fixtures for the cost of a new low-end par can with lamp (some of which are grounded and UL listed).  I would think the labor cost for just cleaning and testing the old dimmer system would be as much or more than the cost of the required number of "weekend warrior" grade dimmer packs.  Disconnect the feeds to the old dimmer system (for safety) and leave it in place for nostalgia.  Strip out the old wiring and fixtures, and install new, safe stuff that can be run and serviced by any normal young lighting pup.    

Tom Bourke

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Re: Old auto-former lighting system
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2004, 01:11:02 PM »

The building was opened in 1953 so I think I am in the auto-former range.  I am also planing on having the rigging inspected by a local rigging company I trust.  It is simple I beam overheads with winches on the electrics.  If it cant be made serviceable I will have all of it removed and replaced with dead hung pars and drapes.

I will post pics of whats there asap.

Tom B
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Brian Ship

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Re: Old auto-former lighting system
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2004, 09:10:40 PM »

Ah' but a single parcan is only going to give one color and light in one area as per a PAR can.  A strip light is a completely different animal.  For a wall of light the PAR will do a good job given projection distance.  This very much does depend upon projection distance also - the strip light being the king of short throw washes in covering a large area in an even wash of light.  For overhead wash of light covering the stage, even a lot of PAR fixtures would both leave a lot of holes as an overhead light and not have the "feel" of a strip or cyc wash.  Grounding a fixture is easy, it's a question of the wiring feeding it once that's done.  This wiring might need to be replaced given inspection and it's no longer permissible to attach an outside grounding conductor to a cable.  The grid also needs to be grounded by todays's standards, and could be a solution.

On the other hand, and your point of man-hours is very valid, especially if they require re-wiring due in part to extra personal safety precautions that will be necessary. American DJ does sell some cyc lights that are extrememly cheap in cost and would also fit premis of a wash of light as an alternative to the strip lights - especially if you went with 375w HIR lamps.  Will such fixtures last as long as these obviously did, or will they fall apart given it's ADJ' is the main question verses labor.  They would at least be lighter in weight - me expecting these are some 20' long strip lights that take an entire crew to move and are a true meaning of dead hang.  Colortran, Stand, Altman and L&E, ETC amongst others make better or at least more dependable products.

Still for the purpose of the space, given a lot of supplemental lighting, it would be a shame to just toss out the strip lights.  They are simple and provide a lot of use.

On the dimmers, these dimmers at least in part have lasted 51 years and still work to a certain extent.  With some care and parts, one might expect at least 3/4s of them at least could work again without much effort.  Low end dimmers are uusually lucky to last ten years and require the same constant maintinence.  Plus part of being economical is in being low amperage normally 10 amp in rating.  In other words, given three banks of 20' strip lights 6" on center with four circuits and at least 150w lamps, that's 2,250w per dimmer on four dimmers. This would necessitate a 2.4Kw dimmer package for the overheads.  At very least a NSI system if not one better known for their dimmers.  This being a school system install, name brands and reliability are much better to be using and that means money.

Yes, I would in the long run replace the dimmers and provide a simple light board, (think of the floor space you would open up) but for a band concert, where the levels are pre-set and someone just needs to turn an all be it large knob, such a system could be made to work for now in a cost effective way.

The strip lights I might save given their purpose has not changed, even consider chopping them up into 6' sections to make it easier to move them should the space be used for other things and you need the light pipes, but the dimmers that labor and parts - plus safety should be balanced against the cost of a completely new system as an immediate verses long term goal.  As long as the equipment is safe to be using, it does not really matter how ancient it is - especially if it's simple enought to use.  Think junior high school - twisting a large knob verses what might happen if the same student had to program cues at the last minute.  For the upgraded system, I would go with an architectural based system with preset cues and various panels around the space for easy cue setting and activation, much less perminant easy to use light levels available to press go by way of both teacher and student.  This would be a lot of money to be budgeted for.  If you expect your school system to eventually invest in a theater program in the space, you might coordinate the architectural system with a DMX one for direct control by way of light board in the future.  A little more money, but certainly worth it.  Until such a time, the more simple and easy to use you can make it, the better the job you will have done given inadiquate supervision and training otherwise.  Buying some dimmers and light board and plopping them into the space would be counter productive if you are the only one able to use them to effect and that's not your primary job.

Strip lights depending upon how bad they are could go or stay, but the control of the system I would were I there, prefer to stay simple to use than very expensive to install modern but also easy to use.  A few cues to program a few looks with, a few pre-sets beyond that, all accessable thru wall panels spread around the theater.  Until such thing is in the budget, if the current system can be made to function sufficiently and safely, why not keep using it?  If 50 some odd years ago it was able to do it's task, why would it not be today much less another 50 years from now?

Once the dimmers are replaced as probably advisable for an architecturally based - not necessarially theater based control system, I would ensure at least some of the dimmers made their way along with pictures to the college that's the theater lighting museum I forget the name to, or at least some of them made their way to the high school along with various exempilary parts as visual museum of how it used to be done.  This is education the students necessary to pass on to them.

In the long run I expect it's very much a question of just how much time and cost it will take to bring the system up to at least 1950's standards supplemented by what's necessary to have for compliance today verses budget to improve and upgrade it to something just as easy to use but very expensive.  This in addition to front lighting and specials that by today's standards will be necessary and add ever so much to the concept to the space.  

The floor pocket I might disconnect for now and just seal up and leave in place without any work.  It's value is marginal if on a budget.  Best not to mess with it for now I expect.  Later, might be an interesting project and that's also the key to doing all of this - as a project for you in gaining a theater space with such a feature usable at times per your design or need, plus your own development.  Front curtin lighting a good option otherwise to service the floor pocket with the rest of the lights.  Still it can probably wait a while given front lights will be able to at least do something.

Can't wait for the pictures.

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Tom Bourke

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Re: Old auto-former lighting system
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2004, 02:27:50 AM »

Pictures are up!  Here is a page I threw together to show the old system.  I will edit for spelling and such in the next few days. Enjoy and pleas post any and all comments you have!

Tom B

http://tjbaudio.com/DCEJH/
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I have a mild form of Dyslexia that affects my ability to spell.  I do use spell checking to help but it does not always work.  My form of Dyslexia does not affect my reading.  Dyslexics of the world untie! <a href="http://www.cwalv.com" target="_blank">http://www.cwalv.com</a>
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