Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Mike Karseboom]

For live music, especially outdoors, I am finding myself using more and more compression on more and more channels. 


I tend to do a lot of small festivals and street events with mostly rock type music where 75% of the bands are local level talent.  Many are quite good and put on a good show and might even have released their own CD or two,  but they don't tour and you probably have not heard of them.  These musicians sometimes exhibit poor control of their dynamics and I am pretty sure I am making them sound better when I help regulate their volumes.  But even with regional bands with extensive performance experience I am tending towards substantial compression on many inputs.
 
As soon as I start noticing a singer going on and off the mic or otherwise varying their volume, especially if it results in their voice alternately getting buried in the mix or going way over the top, I will start in with 2:1 compression.  If that does not adequately "fix" the problem I will gradually start getting more and more aggressive with the ratio and threshold to where many times they will be at 4:1 or even 5:1 and pretty much always in compression.


I'll do this on guitar, keys, and any other input that jumps around in volume in a "bad" (IMO) way.  A few songs into the set if things are mostly dialed in I will even compress the main mix, although only around 2:1 and only with peaks tickling the compressor.


In my opinion, this has generally resulted in a much more consistent mix, with clearly audible vocals and other instruments more present and distinct.  I know everything cannot be "forward" in the mix at once, but this is what it seems like. 


"If it sounds good it is good", and I think it sounds good and generally get very positive feedback from audience members (although maybe the bar has been set pretty low by some of the other providers?).


So I am looking for a reality check or shared perspective on using this much compression. Have I gone too far?  Would you choose more dynamics even if it meant various "voices" get lost regularly or occasionally jump up and step all over the rest of the mix?

[Tim McCulloch]

It seems you're doing the right things.

[dave briar]

Mike, I'm firmly in the "If it sounds good, it is".  I try to only use as much as needed but, like you, will at times use whatever is needed been if it is a lot. Disclosure however, I'm only a hobbyist.

   ...dave

[Luke Geis]

I too am becoming to find that more and more channels are becoming compressed. Shoot, I am even doing more group buss and master buss compression these days.

I am finding that the only way to gain control over a mix is to have dynamic control of it first. Everyone likes the idea of a dynamic live sounding mix, until they can't hear what they want to hear because that member is too quiet at that part of the song or someone else too loud ( usually the bassist ). The old school idea was don't be lazy and move a fader. Easy enough really, but I find that the song loses a lot of energy that way. As much as I hate mastered media, there is a reason they do it that way and it's for more than just volume. When done well you can add a lot of energy to the mix and have that in your face sound. The down side is that you can only listen to music that way for a while before it causes fatigue in your ears and in your emotion. The great thing is that most are only listening to a live band for an hour at a time. So I don't see a problem with trying to replicate live music as a mastered piece.

When you start getting dynamic control over everything it becomes easier to mix. As you get the dynamics nailed down, the mix really starts to gain energy too. I have found I can get a little more by using group compression on drums, vocals or whatever else has large dynamic range. I have recently started using master buss compression. Many say this is the live sound no no, but I have found I can really lock in a mix. Done well you can almost make the songs pump and breath in time and create a very polished sound. Aside form the higher average SPL ability you can then turn things down a little bit and have the PA just working the needed SPL in to get things on top. The mix still has the energy and power, but the PA is simply adding what isn't there now. Or you can rip peoples head off and go for the full on rock show.

If sounds good and right, it must be.........

[Helge A Bentsen]

It depends.

Last night I did a jazz trio in a club with a good pa and mixer, had my personal mic collection with me and the players were really, really good. 15 inputs, a fast attack comp to take the loudest peaks on the bass DI, nothing more. Not even a gate on 7 drum mics. Sounded awesome.

Other times I will do things that are pretty close to your description.

[John Roberts {JR}]

That's what compressors are for... If it sounds good it is good.

JR

PS: Compressing buses (not busses) can alter mix levels between stems more than compressing individual inputs. You shouldn't need to compress everything, but vocals  are obvious beneficiaries. Any player with poor dynamics control. 

[George Dougherty]

For live music, especially outdoors, I am finding myself using more and more compression on more and more channels. 


I tend to do a lot of small festivals and street events with mostly rock type music where 75% of the bands are local level talent.  Many are quite good and put on a good show and might even have released their own CD or two,  but they don't tour and you probably have not heard of them.  These musicians sometimes exhibit poor control of their dynamics and I am pretty sure I am making them sound better when I help regulate their volumes.  But even with regional bands with extensive performance experience I am tending towards substantial compression on many inputs.
 
As soon as I start noticing a singer going on and off the mic or otherwise varying their volume, especially if it results in their voice alternately getting buried in the mix or going way over the top, I will start in with 2:1 compression.  If that does not adequately "fix" the problem I will gradually start getting more and more aggressive with the ratio and threshold to where many times they will be at 4:1 or even 5:1 and pretty much always in compression.


I'll do this on guitar, keys, and any other input that jumps around in volume in a "bad" (IMO) way.  A few songs into the set if things are mostly dialed in I will even compress the main mix, although only around 2:1 and only with peaks tickling the compressor.


In my opinion, this has generally resulted in a much more consistent mix, with clearly audible vocals and other instruments more present and distinct.  I know everything cannot be "forward" in the mix at once, but this is what it seems like. 


"If it sounds good it is good", and I think it sounds good and generally get very positive feedback from audience members (although maybe the bar has been set pretty low by some of the other providers?).


So I am looking for a reality check or shared perspective on using this much compression. Have I gone too far?  Would you choose more dynamics even if it meant various "voices" get lost regularly or occasionally jump up and step all over the rest of the mix?

The general idea is do no harm.  If the compression on the channels isn't obvious and giving an overcompressed sound, then it's doing its job.  In my book, that's to make things sound more polished and cohesive, taming the changes you wouldn't or couldn't adjust for.

It will often also help on smaller and/or undersized PA's.  In my experience touring festival sized shows, a more heavily compressed mix actually sounds better on a marginally adequate system as you keep drivers out of distortion.  Translate the same thing onto a large Vertec or l'acoustics rig and you're better off backing all the compression down since the rig can handle the dynamics.

[David Buckley]

There is a saying from long, long ago, that with music, dynamics is life, so, in principle, compression robs music of "life".  Of course, that is far too broad a brush, but there is a line between "keeping the dynamics under control" and "compressing the hell out of the music".  Where that line is depends on many factors, but probably the most important are the style of music, and the "quality" of the musicians.  If the band is a top 40s cover band, then the expectation is that the music will be processed to within an inch of its life.  A bluegrass band, much less so.

So let your ears be the guide, but always be questioning.

Where I part company from OP is:

...I will even compress the main mix, although only around 2:1 and only with peaks tickling the compressor.

Now this is where it gets scary.  Putting a normal compressor or limiter on the main mix will, if the gain reduction lights come on, result in "ducking".  Effectively, the loudest thing will stay put, and everything else will drop in level.  This generally sounds horrible, unnatural, "forced", and thus bad, unless that is the specific effect you are trying to achieve!

A multiband compressor on the main outs is not a tool without its place, and if you are after that "polished" sound, may get you closer to what you want.  Heck, turn it up and you can get that 80s AM radio sound...

[John Chiara]

There is a saying from long, long ago, that with music, dynamics is life, so, in principle, compression robs music of "life".  Of course, that is far too broad a brush, but there is a line between "keeping the dynamics under control" and "compressing the hell out of the music".  Where that line is depends on many factors, but probably the most important are the style of music, and the "quality" of the musicians.  If the band is a top 40s cover band, then the expectation is that the music will be processed to within an inch of its life.  A bluegrass band, much less so.

So let your ears be the guide, but always be questioning.

Where I part company from OP is:
Now this is where it gets scary.  Putting a normal compressor or limiter on the main mix will, if the gain reduction lights come on, result in "ducking".  Effectively, the loudest thing will stay put, and everything else will drop in level.  This generally sounds horrible, unnatural, "forced", and thus bad, unless that is the specific effect you are trying to achieve!

A multiband compressor on the main outs is not a tool without its place, and if you are after that "polished" sound, may get you closer to what you want.  Heck, turn it up and you can get that 80s AM radio sound...

Modern mixed music is compressed. If you learn how to use it effectively you will be ahead of the game. In most live situations the much overused term 'dynamics' makes quiet things too quiet and loud things too loud. if you are mixing larger shows you are trying to approach a recording quality production, therefore mastery of the same tools is valuable. Side chained comps can help a lot to make a mix more musical. I would learn all I could with 'normal' mono or stereo comps before going the multi band route. I have moved away from multibands in the studio except for 'fixing' canned musical tracks.

[Luke Geis]

My feeling is this.......... Most people don not listen to live music day in and day out. They have a very little reference to run with. Some attend live shows often and will have an idea of the difference between what a good mix and a bad one is. Now most peoples ability to tell a polished live sound from one that is not, will be based on their experience. Most are happy with the fact they can hear everything. The only other point of reference for most is what they hear on the car radio. What do most people hear? Highly compressed media that is squeezed to within an inch of it's life.

Lets take a step back. An Audiophile is one that will pride themselves in their ability to hear distinct nuances in music and will critique a mix and tear it apart for it's dynamics, sonic character and overall depth and reality. The right for them to critique and tear apart a mix goes about as far as their ability to produce with their own ability what they feel is the worlds gift of music. In less sharp words, they have no real right to critique something that they themselves have no ability to create. However this is what people have a propensity to do, critique and reference against, without ability to produce on their own. Hippocrates is tell ya...... We need them though............

This ties in greatly with what you ask when someone asks you for more of something in the mix...... What is your relation to the band member? Most of what people desire to hear is based on what they desire to hear. What makes a good mixing engineer is one that can make 7 out of 10 people happy. A great one will have everyone on their backs waiting for belly rubs. I desire to make a live mix sound as realistic as the next guy, but then I realize that the talent going into the PA is not as good as the talent that made the reference material what it is  and being referenced against. Most bands do not sound great on their own basically. They sit on the backs of giants to get them there. A good musician writes his own material, a great one steals his........ Well how many bands do you think needed a great engineer/producer to get them that sound?

When it comes to compression and ones ability to mix there must be at least a few questions. What is my goal? What is my purpose? Design, integration and optimization is how I put it. The entire existence of a sound engineer is how they design a system or a mix, how they integrate equipment or skills and how they optimize the systems ability or the overall mix? You can it work either way, but in the end it's design, integration and optimization.

So, when I go to a show what do I expect? I expect to hear a polished mix where I can hear everything and feel that the mix is realistic sounding and true to life while at the same time being bigger than life. I could care less if the vocals are on top of the mix, can I hear the words? I do not care if the kick is making my ribs sore, does it sound like a desirable kick and does it match the style of music? It goes on and on. I could care less how much or little compression is used to get it there, does it sound right? A great mix is one you can walk away from saying that it sounded great. It can be as dynamic as the waves in the ocean, I don't care. Did it sound good, that is the question?

So going back to the beginning, How much compression is ok and where is it ok? It doesn't matter as long as it sounds good. What sounds good? I have only had a small number of shows where I could say that it gets no better than it is right now ( with or without compression ), but just tonight I had a musician of 35 years say that I had some of the best sound he has every heard! I was not happy with my work tonight and felt it could have been much better. It's all reference and it is not keeping it simple, it's adding your own amount of magic sauce to the mix. Some are able to walk into a poop show and walk out with a grin, others walk into a poop show and walk out covered in poop........ If I walk into a poop show, I'm going to polish that turd till I walk out with a white smile..... At least on my face

[ProSoundWeb Community]