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[Blake Short]

So i have always been the sound guy for the band... no big deal...

until i decided to dump my mackie cfx16 and buy a presonus 16.4.2AI!  Now that there is a lot more possible to do with this board... i'm kind of at a loss of what to do with it!  All i know is less is more in terms of achieving good sound.  I'm working on trying to not overmix my rig and I just need a better understanding of the mindset off a live sound engineer!  We do about 100+ shows a year in the MI/IN/OH area, so becoming a serious sound man is very high on my priority list because my ears and hands are in control of what the people are hearing which to me is just as big a deal as playing and singing the right notes!

Now, with that little bit of background (and hopefully not boring any of you!) I need some direction on how to understand what this new soundboard is allowing me to do.  At heart I am an analog guy, and anything digital mentioned to me i'll generally put my nose up in the air to it haha.  That being said, I know that not all digital things are bad and after much consideration I decided to get the presonus because it is basically everything that i need as a sound man for the next couple years doing smaller gigs and running sound for the band myself. (was going to put together an analog rig but everything is in this one counsel and it just seemed like the way to go, plus a very good friend of ours who runs sound for a living recommended this board to me)

SO, here I am prosoundweb!  I look forward to learning how to tackling this seemingly daunting task of being a great sound man haha and i know it wont be easy, but i have a good ear and i just need to be able to analyze in my brain what my ear is trying to tell me!

So far i have been working exclusively on monitor mixes and trying to understand feedback frequencies so we can have the stage loud enough so we can deliver a good show (cause if the band can't hear themselves or we are dealing with feedback, how can we even play a show worth listening to?)  I downloaded a little feedback trainer app for my computer and I have been working with that... I also downloaded a frequency analyzer for my iphone so that I can quickly adjust frequencies i need to for now, but i'm hoping to rely on my ears a bit more for that later in my career.

Anyways thanks for reading my little (or large!) introduction of myself and i'll be looking to pick your brains a lot here in the near future!

Blake Short
www.thewhistlestoprevue.com

[Rob Gow]

First things first


What instruments are involved
How many vocal mics?
How many monitors.

[Mark Jastrzebski]

It's cliche, but keep it simple.

When I was using analog, I had eight channels of compressors, eight channels of gates, and four effects processors. And I wanted more. I put gates on every drum. I put compressors on vocals, horns, guitars, bass, etc.. Everything I could. Going to digital was going to be great. Gate and compressor on every channel!

I've been using a digital console for three years now and I use gates on three channels and compressors on two channels. Just because you have all the stuff that comes with digital you don't have to use it.

The best thing about digital consoles, for me, is the speed that I can get set up and ready to go especially with a digital snake.

[Tim McCulloch]

There is no obligation to do things differently just because you're on a digital mixer instead of a steam-powered analog mixer.  Don't bother with compressors or gates (especially for bluegrass).

As for monitors, how freakin' loud do they have to be for the genre?  I do bluegrass gigs where the artists have us remove the monitors from the performance area.  YMMV and all that, but unless you've got some really stupid-wacky gain things happening, bad microphone choices/placement or really shitty monitors these things shouldn't be a major issue*.  Is there a trend in bluegrass to be as loud as a heavy metal band?  Not joking here - a couple years ago I had a Band Engineer (BE for short) who seemed to delight in making his act 12 dB louder than everyone else, and it became my job to deflect the unhappy ticket buyer's complaints.

* shouldn't be a major issue for folks with experience.  You're new, you get to make some mistakes first.

[Blake Short]

First things first


What instruments are involved
How many vocal mics?
How many monitors.

Ha!  Sorry should have mentioned that!

3 instruments: Electric upright bass which runs DI from his stage amp, Taylor 814 DI through fishman aura imager, and Grady F5 mandolin currently mic'ed with SM 57 but I am going to have a fishman M300 (piezo-ceramic) installed by the mandolin maker and I think i'm still going to want to send a stage mic to the FOH and use the m300 for monitor mix to help avoid feedback.  Also i'll be using the Radial tonebonez DI when i get the m300 installed on the mando.

3 vocal mics (2 OM2s and an SM58) and i'm looking to replace all of these for condenser vocal mics soon (been looking at beta 87a, and sennheiser e865 so far...)

Right now we run 2 monitors (on a QSC 1450) for 3 people, the monitors are JBL JRX112s, but i'm looking to pick up a third for bigger stages when necessary.  I've really been quite happy with the sound of these monitors when we ran the mackie cfx16 and things were less complicated as far as eq'ing goes.  I know they will still sound good if i can get these monitors dialed in (which also relies on me dialing in the eq settings for each instrument and vocal channel which i am not 100% confident in yet with the presonus)

also we run 2 JBL JRX115s for mains (on a PV2400), and the bigger clubs i recently borrowed a yamaha sub from a friend that I run on a bridged PV900 x-over at 125 per the amp i believe.

[Tim McCulloch]

Ha!  Sorry should have mentioned that!

3 instruments: Electric upright bass which runs DI from his stage amp, Taylor 814 DI through fishman aura imager, and Grady F5 mandolin currently mic'ed with SM 57 but I am going to have a fishman M300 (piezo-ceramic) installed by the mandolin maker and I think i'm still going to want to send a stage mic to the FOH and use the m300 for monitor mix to help avoid feedback.  Also i'll be using the Radial tonebonez DI when i get the m300 installed on the mando.

3 vocal mics (2 OM2s and an SM58) and i'm looking to replace all of these for condenser vocal mics soon (been looking at beta 87a, and sennheiser e865 so far...)

Right now we run 2 monitors (on a QSC 1450) for 3 people, the monitors are JBL JRX112s, but i'm looking to pick up a third for bigger stages when necessary.  I've really been quite happy with the sound of these monitors when we ran the mackie cfx16 and things were less complicated as far as eq'ing goes.  I know they will still sound good if i can get these monitors dialed in (which also relies on me dialing in the eq settings for each instrument and vocal channel which i am not 100% confident in yet with the presonus)

also we run 2 JBL JRX115s for mains (on a PV2400), and the bigger clubs i recently borrowed a yamaha sub from a friend that I run on a bridged PV900 x-over at 125 per the amp i believe.

So bass, mando and guitar?  Is this a "power-grass" band?  Everything at 180 BPM, everything amplified on stage to rock and roll levels?

[Blake Short]

It's cliche, but keep it simple.

I've been using a digital console for three years now and I use gates on three channels and compressors on two channels. Just because you have all the stuff that comes with digital you don't have to use it.

hence why i said "less is more"... this applies to just about every aspect of life.  I'm not looking to use all that crap all the time... but i'd like to know why it's there and understand the mechanics of these tools.  what's the point of having a tool if you don't know how to use it?!?

So bass, mando and guitar?  Is this a "power-grass" band?  Everything at 180 BPM, everything amplified on stage to rock and roll levels?

no not everything is 180 BPM, but we are not what most people think of "bluegrass" aka gospel and the like.  We are more of a newgrass style group, but we influence from all kinds of stuff, rock, gypsy, folk, blues, and what not.  Yes everything is amplified on stage, yes i like to hear what I am doing on stage and so do the boys.

There is no obligation to do things differently just because you're on a digital mixer instead of a steam-powered analog mixer. 

this is true, however i am dealing with a new eq system on this board and i'm trying to understand how to use it properly, and things do not sound the same right out of the gate when going from mackie to presonus.

As for monitors, how freakin' loud do they have to be for the genre?  I do bluegrass gigs where the artists have us remove the monitors from the performance area.

the monitors need to be loud enough and not feeding back, period.    every room is different and requires different adjustments.  sure maybe that one gig the volume of the mains was good enough they could hear and didnt need monitors.  I acutally like to hear clearly what i am doing on stage because i am not a shy musician like many in the business, and if i can't hear myself or the person i'm singing harmony with... what good do the monitors do for me??  none... yes i understand that mics need certain placements and there are certain mics for certain jobs.

* shouldn't be a major issue for folks with experience.  You're new, you get to make some mistakes first.

i'm not trying to be defensive or rub anyone the wrong way, but Tim, you come off as a know it all and yes, i know you have more experience than me with this... but maybe you could try and not appear to be talking down to me because you know more about something than i do.  I know im going to and am making mistakes now... this is why i am here...

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Blake... 

Forget all the outboard apps and stuff.  Just use the FW connection to a MacBook and take advantage of the onboard SMAART feature.  It's one feature that makes the SLive really usable.

[Robert Weston]

hence why i said "less is more"... this applies to just about every aspect of life.  I'm not looking to use all that crap all the time... but i'd like to know why it's there and understand the mechanics of these tools.  what's the point of having a tool if you don't know how to use it?!?


no not everything is 180 BPM, but we are not what most people think of "bluegrass" aka gospel and the like.  We are more of a newgrass style group, but we influence from all kinds of stuff, rock, gypsy, folk, blues, and what not.  Yes everything is amplified on stage, yes i like to hear what I am doing on stage and so do the boys.

this is true, however i am dealing with a new eq system on this board and i'm trying to understand how to use it properly, and things do not sound the same right out of the gate when going from mackie to presonus.

the monitors need to be loud enough and not feeding back, period.    every room is different and requires different adjustments.  sure maybe that one gig the volume of the mains was good enough they could hear and didnt need monitors.  I acutally like to hear clearly what i am doing on stage because i am not a shy musician like many in the business, and if i can't hear myself or the person i'm singing harmony with... what good do the monitors do for me??  none... yes i understand that mics need certain placements and there are certain mics for certain jobs.

i'm not trying to be defensive or rub anyone the wrong way, but Tim, you come off as a know it all and yes, i know you have more experience than me with this... but maybe you could try and not appear to be talking down to me because you know more about something than i do.  I know im going to and am making mistakes now... this is why i am here...

Blake - for "sound people" new to the arena (such as yourself), I usually suggest posting your location.  By doing this, perhaps someone on the forum is near you and can stop by to help you with your system.  It's exponentially easier to learn about about that stuff (gates, compressors, limiters, etc...) by watching someone setup it up while you can ask questions. 

The Presonus board does a lot, and sometimes the "learning" can get lost in all the ideas/suggestions that are posted here.  Many of us have our own ways of setting things up (but in the end, the results are almost identical).  What you may want to try, is to ask one a question a week; give us time to answer you and ask you other questions.  Without having all the information, it's hard to develop a correct solution.

Try not to take anything personal on the board (unless the person responding to you knows you personally!!).  There's a lot of talent on the board and each of us have a different way of communicating our knowledge.

[Tim McCulloch]

hence why i said "less is more"... this applies to just about every aspect of life.  I'm not looking to use all that crap all the time... but i'd like to know why it's there and understand the mechanics of these tools.  what's the point of having a tool if you don't know how to use it?!?


no not everything is 180 BPM, but we are not what most people think of "bluegrass" aka gospel and the like.  We are more of a newgrass style group, but we influence from all kinds of stuff, rock, gypsy, folk, blues, and what not.  Yes everything is amplified on stage, yes i like to hear what I am doing on stage and so do the boys.

this is true, however i am dealing with a new eq system on this board and i'm trying to understand how to use it properly, and things do not sound the same right out of the gate when going from mackie to presonus.

the monitors need to be loud enough and not feeding back, period.    every room is different and requires different adjustments.  sure maybe that one gig the volume of the mains was good enough they could hear and didnt need monitors.  I acutally like to hear clearly what i am doing on stage because i am not a shy musician like many in the business, and if i can't hear myself or the person i'm singing harmony with... what good do the monitors do for me??  none... yes i understand that mics need certain placements and there are certain mics for certain jobs.

i'm not trying to be defensive or rub anyone the wrong way, but Tim, you come off as a know it all and yes, i know you have more experience than me with this... but maybe you could try and not appear to be talking down to me because you know more about something than i do.  I know im going to and am making mistakes now... this is why i am here...

I'm trying to suss out your experience level and what conditions you're up against.  Mostly it looks like inexperience, and that's why I said "you get to make mistakes."  Mistakes are how we learn, by fixing/correcting whatever made the bad noise or didn't make enough good noise.

I work with an act that is labeled "bluegrass" but could just as easily be a speed metal act if you changed 2 instruments... with all the SPL issues that come with a metal act.  I've worked with numerous acts that were so quiet that getting enough level in the house before feedback was the challenge.  That's a pretty broad spectrum, and figuring out where your band sits in that spectrum is useful to the rest of us in helping find some solutions with you.

Based on your reply I take it you perform in the band.  That presents operational issues for you and is another reason I suggest that you not jump in with compressors and gates right away.  As to the difference in sound between your old and new mixers, it's simple - they *are* different.  Despite science and precision technology, every manufacturer implements EQ differently.  Some of the differences aren't so big and others far from subtle; the change from Mackie to Presonus probably qualifies as the latter.  There's no magic bullet or secret sauce, you'll need to start from scratch.  This is an issue band engineers have to face when they don't carry a mixer with them - on a different desk every day, they're expected to make each performance sound as much alike as possible.  With any luck, you'll only have to do this once and then brush it up from time to time.

I already have some ideas of what *might* be happening, but until we learn more I'll refrain from posting my speculation.  And yeah, I've been doing this for 30 years, over 20 of that mixing bluegrass for 75 folks or 5,000 folks... I've got a head start on you and much of what I do instinctively is not stuff you would know to do.  I'm not trying to be condescending but perhaps overestimated your experience level.

[ProSoundWeb Community]