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Author Topic: Is it overkill or just awesome?!  (Read 4770 times)

Jason Shroyer

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Is it overkill or just awesome?!
« on: February 17, 2012, 01:13:56 pm »

Hello,

   My first post so be gentle.

   We are working with a local AV group to design and install all equipment for our new brewpub (now under construction). I had some experience running live sound in the late 90's but have been out of the game since.
   
   I would like an evaluation and any recommendations you would have for our set up as it stands. The central idea with this system is to have distributed, high fidelity sound throughout the space. The AV group is also focused on the networking of the system and the ability to play house music and TV audio through the system.

   Here are the main components:

   (8 Tannoy VX8's
   (2) Klipsch KI-215's
   (2) QSC K12's
(All speaker pairs will have their own zone)
   (1) Crown CTs8200
   (1) Crown CTs2000

   Mackie ProFX16
   DBX  Drive Rack 260
   (2) DBX Zone Pro 1260
   (4) DBX ZC Keypads

   ProCo  SMC0804FBQ-100 Signal Snake

   Thank you very much for your input!

   J.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Is it overkill or just awesome?!
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2012, 01:54:40 pm »

Jason, without knowing anything about the space itself or exactly what you're trying to do, it's difficult to comment.  I can also think of a multitude of ways to deploy the equipment listed that may or may not serve your needs, so it's not just a matter of what is being provided but also how it is being used.
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Scott Carneval

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Re: Is it overkill or just awesome?!
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2012, 02:49:38 pm »

Hello,

   My first post so be gentle.

   We are working with a local AV group to design and install all equipment for our new brewpub (now under construction). I had some experience running live sound in the late 90's but have been out of the game since.
   
   I would like an evaluation and any recommendations you would have for our set up as it stands. The central idea with this system is to have distributed, high fidelity sound throughout the space. The AV group is also focused on the networking of the system and the ability to play house music and TV audio through the system.

   Here are the main components:

   (8 Tannoy VX8's
   (2) Klipsch KI-215's
   (2) QSC K12's
(All speaker pairs will have their own zone)
   (1) Crown CTs8200
   (1) Crown CTs2000

   Mackie ProFX16
   DBX  Drive Rack 260
   (2) DBX Zone Pro 1260
   (4) DBX ZC Keypads

   ProCo  SMC0804FBQ-100 Signal Snake

   Thank you very much for your input!

   J.

One thing stands out immediately...you mentioned that each speaker PAIR will have it's own zone...I see a potential for 15 zones between your pair of ZonePro's and the DR260 but you only list 6 pairs of speakers.  Unless I'm missing something, you should be able to use only one ZonePro for the whole system. 

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Brad Weber

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Re: Is it overkill or just awesome?!
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 10:06:04 am »

One thing stands out immediately...you mentioned that each speaker PAIR will have it's own zone...I see a potential for 15 zones between your pair of ZonePro's and the DR260 but you only list 6 pairs of speakers.  Unless I'm missing something, you should be able to use only one ZonePro for the whole system.
I would guess that the DR260 is for the K12s and KI-215s as the main system, with the eight VX8s being either fills and/or for the house music and TV audio.  However, I'm not sure if the eight VX8s "pairs" for each zone are two speakers in parallel or if they were actually thinking of trying to have stereo pairs in each zone.  If the latter, then you would need two ZonePro units, which makes me think that may be what they had in mind although my experience is that in most venues stereo distributed systems is usually not practical or necessarily desired.

The other thing that jumped out to me was the Mackie ProFX16 and the 8x4 stage box.  Eight inputs and the ProFX16 suggests more than a DJ but a rather limited live sound capability.  And I'm not sure why four returns to the stage with no monitor provisions noted.

FWIW, despite what ProCo says in its marketing, I don't see much of a place for the SMC0804FBQ-10 in installed systems.  With a stage box on one end and connectors on the other it would be difficult to pull through conduit, or just to pull in general, and the specs for the cable do not indicate it is rated for being run in walls, above ceilings or in plenum spaces.  And if I was going to go through the effort I would consider installing a larger snake so you could handle more inputs if needed.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Is it overkill or just awesome?!
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 10:13:16 am »

Jason, without knowing anything about the space itself or exactly what you're trying to do, it's difficult to comment.  I can also think of a multitude of ways to deploy the equipment listed that may or may not serve your needs, so it's not just a matter of what is being provided but also how it is being used.

  +1  The poster needs to hire someone that is licensed, knows codes and exactly what they're doing...

   HAmmer
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Jason Shroyer

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Re: Is it overkill or just awesome?!
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 07:59:31 pm »

Jason, without knowing anything about the space itself or exactly what you're trying to do, it's difficult to comment.  I can also think of a multitude of ways to deploy the equipment listed that may or may not serve your needs, so it's not just a matter of what is being provided but also how it is being used.

Sorry for that.

The total space is approx. 41ft X 130ft (5,300sq ft). The public space is approx. 35x75 and holds 140 patrons.

The ceiling is 18ft tall and has some awesome exposed beams and trusses.

We are planning on having live music once or twice per week (but at least once per week). Acts will generally be solo/duo acoustic acts and frequently trios with percussion. Occasionally we will have full 4 or 5 piece bands.

On the off days we will be streaming music or playing audio for an occasional sporting event on cable/pay-pay-per-view.

The Tannoy VX8's will be used to distribute sound evenly throughout the space. The QSC K12's will function as mains for the larger acts with live percussion.

All of the feed back helps! Thanks!
J.
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Jason Shroyer

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Re: Is it overkill or just awesome?!
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 08:39:05 pm »

I would guess that the DR260 is for the K12s and KI-215s as the main system, with the eight VX8s being either fills and/or for the house music and TV audio.  However, I'm not sure if the eight VX8s "pairs" for each zone are two speakers in parallel or if they were actually thinking of trying to have stereo pairs in each zone.  If the latter, then you would need two ZonePro units, which makes me think that may be what they had in mind although my experience is that in most venues stereo distributed systems is usually not practical or necessarily desired.

The other thing that jumped out to me was the Mackie ProFX16 and the 8x4 stage box.  Eight inputs and the ProFX16 suggests more than a DJ but a rather limited live sound capability.  And I'm not sure why four returns to the stage with no monitor provisions noted.

FWIW, despite what ProCo says in its marketing, I don't see much of a place for the SMC0804FBQ-10 in installed systems.  With a stage box on one end and connectors on the other it would be difficult to pull through conduit, or just to pull in general, and the specs for the cable do not indicate it is rated for being run in walls, above ceilings or in plenum spaces.  And if I was going to go through the effort I would consider installing a larger snake so you could handle more inputs if needed.

Thanks for the great feedback! (nice pun)

I will bring up your snake concerns to the designer. Do you have a specific recommendation for a replacement? That would help a ton.

The signal will leave the mixer into the DR260 and then into the two Zone Pro units in series for the VX8's run as stereo pairs. Additional outputs will be used from the DR260 into the K12's. All speaker pairs will be set as an individual zone.

J.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Is it overkill or just awesome?!
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 12:59:08 pm »

I will bring up your snake concerns to the designer. Do you have a specific recommendation for a replacement? That would help a ton.
The acts and bands you plan on supporting will drive many aspects of the system including the number of inputs and what monitoring may be appropriate.  Eight inputs and the ProFX16 may be fine for a simple acoustic solo, duet or trio, but would likely be limiting for much more than that.  Also consider how an acoustic performance may relate to the 75' deep audience space, you may be relying more on the sound system for people further from the stage.

Your equipment list didn't seem to have anything for stage monitors other than possibly the four snake returns, but maybe you just didn't address the equipment related to that.  Even smaller acoustic acts may want some stage monitoring.

The signal will leave the mixer into the DR260 and then into the two Zone Pro units in series for the VX8's run as stereo pairs. Additional outputs will be used from the DR260 into the K12's. All speaker pairs will be set as an individual zone.
Two aspects to possibly consider.  One is that simply having left and right speakers does not make for stereo reproduction.  If some people hear mostly just the left channel audio and others mostly just the right then that is not only not stereo, it's probably less desirable than mono.  The other aspect is how much acoustical separation there is between zones.  The bottom line is whether 'stereo' reproduction will be realistic in most of the public areas.

Somewhat related is how and where the plan to mount the VX8 speakers.  You mentioned having an 18' ceiling with exposed beams and trusses.  The VX8 is a nominal 90 degree conical coverage, so how and where do they plan to mount those speakers in order to provide 'stereo' coverage for the 35'x75' public space?  I'm not saying it is not possible, but you may want to verify what is planned.
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Jason Shroyer

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Re: Is it overkill or just awesome?!
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 05:43:32 pm »

The acts and bands you plan on supporting will drive many aspects of the system including the number of inputs and what monitoring may be appropriate.  Eight inputs and the ProFX16 may be fine for a simple acoustic solo, duet or trio, but would likely be limiting for much more than that.  Also consider how an acoustic performance may relate to the 75' deep audience space, you may be relying more on the sound system for people further from the stage.

Your equipment list didn't seem to have anything for stage monitors other than possibly the four snake returns, but maybe you just didn't address the equipment related to that.  Even smaller acoustic acts may want some stage monitoring.
Two aspects to possibly consider.  One is that simply having left and right speakers does not make for stereo reproduction.  If some people hear mostly just the left channel audio and others mostly just the right then that is not only not stereo, it's probably less desirable than mono.  The other aspect is how much acoustical separation there is between zones.  The bottom line is whether 'stereo' reproduction will be realistic in most of the public areas.

Somewhat related is how and where the plan to mount the VX8 speakers.  You mentioned having an 18' ceiling with exposed beams and trusses.  The VX8 is a nominal 90 degree conical coverage, so how and where do they plan to mount those speakers in order to provide 'stereo' coverage for the 35'x75' public space?  I'm not saying it is not possible, but you may want to verify what is planned.
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Re: Is it overkill or just awesome?!
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 05:43:32 pm »


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