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Author Topic: Epoxy abuse?  (Read 8260 times)

Kevin Unger

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Epoxy abuse?
« on: December 29, 2009, 03:42:04 PM »

I saw this picture in another thread:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/fa/27059/0/




Is everyone sealing the entire cab with epoxy? It's completely overkill if so; the plywoods already a composite board...

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Art Welter

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Re: Epoxy abuse?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2009, 08:05:24 PM »

No, and that picture also has unnecessary rounding fillets in the bends.
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: Epoxy abuse?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2009, 06:48:16 AM »

Is it epoxy or some kind of clear varnish?

Douglas R. Allen
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Duane Silveira

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Re: Epoxy abuse?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2009, 05:23:52 PM »

It almost appears that the first turn has been rounded using fiberglass resin.
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Art Welter

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Re: Epoxy abuse?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2009, 05:39:53 PM »

Duane Silveira wrote on Wed, 30 December 2009 15:23

It almost appears that the first turn has been rounded using fiberglass resin.


I recall from previous posts that the fillets and the coating use West Systems epoxy. Functionally, epoxy is not much different from polyester resin.

The attention to detail is commendable, though the actual sound output ends up being less due to slightly shortening the path length. Adds useless weight too..

As the OP has correctly noted, the use of epoxy for this application is completely overkill.

But, hey, it’s only time and money Laughing .
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sheldon harris

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Re: Epoxy abuse?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2010, 01:14:44 PM »

well, some folks do try to build as strong as possible.i think the builder is not only concentrating on sealing, but strength as well

if you ever had speakers fall off a truck,forklift,scaffold etc.you might understand(if we cant pick it back up and put it back where it was intended, it has to go. that is the reason why some hi end stuff has metal skeleton bracing on the insides as well(epoxied and screwed to the wood that is epoxied and screwed.)

i saw a really hi end line array rig, fall from 25 feet, the lower cabinets were about 8 feet from the ground, most of the drivers survived, but unfortunately almost every seam of the boxes were split open! the owner himself exclaimed that he did not believe those joints were glued with enough epoxy.

expensive and time consuming yes, but might help hold together a big moving mass coming to a sudden and abrupt stop

my.02
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Art Welter

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Re: Epoxy abuse?
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2010, 01:41:40 PM »

sheldon harris wrote on Fri, 01 January 2010 11:14

well, some folks do try to build as strong as possible.i think the builder is not only concentrating on sealing, but strength as well

if you ever had speakers fall off a truck,forklift,scaffold etc.you might understand(if we cant pick it back up and put it back where it was intended, it has to go. that is the reason why some hi end stuff has metal skeleton bracing on the insides as well(epoxied and screwed to the wood that is epoxied and screwed.)

i saw a really hi end line array rig, fall from 25 feet, the lower cabinets were about 8 feet from the ground, most of the drivers survived, but unfortunately almost every seam of the boxes were split open! the owner himself exclaimed that he did not believe those joints were glued with enough epoxy.

expensive and time consuming yes, but might help hold together a big moving mass coming to a sudden and abrupt stop

my.02


I have built and destroyed many cabinets.
I have used various types of glue and epoxy.
A water resistant yellow glue creates a joint stronger than plywood.
As should epoxy.

Dropping cabinets will concentrate stress in the joints, and as your example shows, the wood  will break at the joints. More epoxy alone wouldn’t save a cabinet falling eight feet, and the stress relief of the cabinet falling apart is what saved the drivers.

If you are planning to drop cabinets long distances, using a metal skeleton bracing would be a valid use of epoxy, as wood glue does not stick to metal.
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Tim Padrick

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Re: Epoxy abuse?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2010, 10:07:26 AM »

The epoxy, when thin enough, does indeed strengthen the plywood.  The builder of the pictured box did some destruction testing, and found that when coated with thin epoxy, the plywood held together several plies farther in than when not coated.  He also used the epoxy (mixed with black pigment and finely chopped glass) to paint all of the visible surfaces.

Kevin Unger

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Re: Epoxy abuse?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2010, 08:05:09 AM »

Tim Padrick wrote on Tue, 05 January 2010 15:07

The epoxy, when thin enough, does indeed strengthen the plywood.  The builder of the pictured box did some destruction testing, and found that when coated with thin epoxy, the plywood held together several plies farther in than when not coated.  He also used the epoxy (mixed with black pigment and finely chopped glass) to paint all of the visible surfaces.



epoxy and polyester resins are two completely different things, and could get mixed up easily in this discussion.

The glass fine fibre you speak of was most likely cab-o-sil. NASTY stuff, wear a proper full face mask at all time when using it. Cotton flock would have been a better choice (I've never used it with pigment) as it'll have a stronger bond. a thick cotton/resin mix is perfect for bonding/joints; usually applied through a funnel bag (like decorating a cake)


I can see some huge problems with an epoxy resin used to thick and cracking due to lack of support (support that would be their if a few layers of fiberglass were their) The crack could potentially chip, no fun at all.


I've never used anything buy PL glue on cabinets, as the expansion aspects of it are perfect, and even butt joints are strong enough for any abuse it would see.


(My former employment was composite tool and die for lockheed, Kinda weird to see some of it applied here)
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Karl Bruhn

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Re: Epoxy abuse?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 12:35:15 PM »

I'm the builder of these boxes. I've owned and used many different subs and I've troubleshooted many a strange noise coming from subs. Many of the noises have been joints that vibrate due to a glue joint failure. So when building these boxes, I wanted to eliminated these kinds of problems. These are version 2 boxes from peter Sylvester's site which contain instructions for using West Marine Epoxy systems.

This stuff is used to build and repair boat hulls which are subject to extreme vibration. I had a gallon to work with. The raw mix is quite thin and wicks deep into the wood. It goes on like paint, but soaks in much deeper. The additive is also West fiber filler which looks like a powder. The filler adds considerable strength to the epoxy and also thickens to any desired consistency.

The procedure is to mix a batch with and one without filler. First brush the thin on both surfaces so the glue wicks deep into the wood, then the thickend mix to add strength at at the joint surface. The results were way beyond my expectations. On a test piece of two 12" square pieces of plywood butt jointed together, It took a sledge hammer to break them apart and it did not break at the joint. The wood panels were destroyed, but joints were still intact. This stuff makes the joint stronger that the wood itself. The mix with filler gets super hard. Hitting hit with the claw of a hammer barely makes a mark, like hitting a rock. I've since used it on all may boxes, racks, and cases. For cases and racks, no additional bracing is needed making the finished product lighter and stronger.

These boxes have been moved and used on close to 500 shows now and still look new except for a few dings. They are still rock solid even after some drops. The decision to coat the inside and outside of all surfaces was originally to make the things completely waterproof. Besides it's easy to apply the raw mix. Plus the coated wood is stiffer. But after comparing them side by side with others built by someone else using other glue, I noticed another big difference. Running at full power, my boxes had much less vibration when touching them with your hand. They vibrate much less than the top boxes. The others almost walked across the floor. I first though mine were unplugged. This means much of the acoustic energy was getting converted into vibration (mechanical energy) meaning less output. How much, I don't know, but the difference was very noticable.  

Try this stuff and you'll be amazed. The secret is the West filler material mixed in with the epoxy. And the raw mix is aborbed into the wood fibers giving it some of the same properties as the filler mix. These boxes will survive long after others have fallen apart.
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