ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 22   Go Down

Author Topic: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II  (Read 59035 times)

Paul Bell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1009
    • http://pbellsound.com/
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2007, 08:15:15 pm »

On one of these threads, there were a few questions for me:

The EM Acoustic Quake cabinets did die. The guys on the console were wondering who cut the bass during the listening test. I was standing near Mark. Somebody by the amps said that the amp was still putting out. Both cabinets went south. Being buried in a nine foot horn and behind a foam grill, the smoke was never seen. The boys who brought them said no problem, they have re-cone kits in stock.

The space has two inch acoustical sheets covering the entire ceiling backed by sealed rubber sheets. The stage has the same on all three walls. The far upper rear wall also has the same. The lower rear wall and the two side walls are bare concrete or block. Rough surfaces for that "CBGB" look.

Hope this answers some questions.

Next!

Paul Bell
Logged
Paul Bell
PBell Sound New York City
paulATpbellsound.com
User/provider for:
McCauley, BASSMAXX, APB DynaSonics, QSC, Ashly, DBX, Rane Digital, Rapco, Faital Pro

Michael Hedden Jr.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2007, 09:11:41 pm »

 Has a shootout for tops ever been organized?[/quote]

We have a substantial inventory of competitors full range loudspeakers that we regularly do comparisons for customers in a double blind test format.  (precise level matching and behind a scrim).  It is pretty amazing the mental gymnastics we have seen from folks that have a hard time facing the fact that maybe some designs are significantly better than others.  One guy told us after picking our loudspeaker three times which was in his world the "wrong" box, "well your box really has too much low end for me anyway"!
Seriously it is very telling the differences you hear between loudspeakers that may actually appear to have similar frequency responses.  You develop a real appreciation for just how hard it is to quantify a very complex thing.  We'd love to participate in a full range shootout as long as it isn't only about loud and painful.  

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs
Logged

drewgandy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 588
    • http://gandymethod.com
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2007, 02:22:17 am »

I'm looking for some comment about what concepts and ultimately time and effort was put into the crossover between the boxes and the in house system for the listening tests.  From what I understand, for testing the boxes were 8 feet from the stage?  I assume the hangs are much closer to the stage so there was probably a good gap between the systems.  I've found that what you do in that critical crossover range can create some different "perception" effects for the whole system.

drew
Logged

Tom Young

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2620
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2007, 07:47:50 am »

I haven't yet seen a group photo of the attendees. So here you go:

index.php/fa/7799/0/
Logged
Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Chris Hinds

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 575
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2007, 08:26:29 am »

Any names to go with faces?  The only guy I recognise is Bennett of course!

Regards

Chris

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II-Cardoid subs
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2007, 09:14:10 am »

There has been some discussion regarding the "cardoid" subs that were present and some confusion on the terms.  Like with full range boxes terms can have different meanings to different people.  

Take the term Active.  In days of old when you were discussing active vs passive loudspeakers you were talking about whether or not the cabinet had a passive crossover in it.  The active part was the electronic crossover before the amplifiers.

Today active can still mean that, or it can mean that there is an amplifier built into it.  It is just how you look at it.

In regards to cardoid subs, there were several in attendance.  It all depends on how you define "cardoid".  The only "active" cardoid (using other loudspeakers to cancel out rear radiation) was the EONA 618.  It would have been good to have the Meyers there, but for some reason they weren't.  Maybe next time.

The EONAs did a very good job of knocking down the rear radiation.  Was it completely gone, no, but the reduction in level was significant, and I would not expect it to be completely gone. In audio it is all a matter of how much.  Just like horn cutoffs, teh sound is not gone, just a good bit lowerer, and some cabinets have a harder cutoff than others.

One of the other "passive" cardiod subs (in my opinion) was the Tripp.  When walking behind them, the level was quite a bit lower than in front.  Was it as much as the EONA, I am not sure (as the Tripp came first), but I would say they were in the same ballpark. The time between listening was a fair bit, so your ears tend to forget very quickly.  We were also in a small room, which will greatly affect what what you hear bouncing around.

No measurements of this were taken, as it would probably be futile in the room we were in to try to get an decent data of that type.  That is best reserved for outdoor measurement.

There were some cabinets in which the rear radiation was just about equal to the front and others had various degress of cancellation to the rear.

Just like with a cardoid mic,  You have your "basic" models in which the ports on the rear of the capsule cancel out the front and you get a cardoid pattern, you can take an omni mic and put it on a boundary and it will also have rear rejection.  How much depends on several factors.

I think the term Cardoid generally refers to active cancellation type subs, but just wanted to point out that there are others that do a good job of it without the added loudspeakers in the rear.  Are they better or worse, I don't know, just different.

There are also various configurations in which you use delay, polarity and physical placing of the cabinets in order to achieve this effect.  This starts to be a large (physically) array, but can be effective if you have the space, the number of cabinets and the knowledge in order to make it work properly.

And with ANY of the above mentioned methods, it is all frequency dependant.  While the truly passive (no electronics) subs will generally have a linear pattern control (as you go higher, you get more rejections) both of the active (built in or DSP based) methods are good only over a particular bandwidth.  Out side of that (high and low) you will have less control over the pattern.

So the real trick is to only have the cabients freq response centered over where the greatest cardoid action is happening or vice versa, determine the freq band if interest and adjust the cardoid action to be centered over this range.
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Wil Davis

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 69
    • http://www.k1wd.com
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2007, 12:15:32 pm »

Hey Chaps!  

I had a wonderful time in NYC;  it was nice to meet you all, and great to get a chance to hear some amazing gear.  I also learned a helluva lot;  overall a great experience,  thanks again to you all, esp.  Paul & Co. and Bennett & Co. and Dave… and Ivan…  and Mark…  and John…  and Mike…  and Eliot… and…

Here are some of my pics, not quite as newsworthy as those of Paul's Uncle Ray, but they might give those of you who couldn't make it, an idea of what it/we looked like:  

http://www.k1wd.com/misc/stuff/NYCShootOut2007/

So, when's the next one?

- Wil
Logged
"……………………" - Marcel Marceau

Tim Morin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 162
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2007, 12:33:02 pm »

I agree, we would also be intersted in a shootout of this type. the problem will be that most of these are mostly about loud and painful. I have read threads about the NY sub shootout and most of the fuss is who's cabinets were the loudest. I have not seen any threads on the musicality of the subs as that is truly what determines which of these manufacturers will be on a major tour or install in the future. just my 2 cents.
Logged

Michael 'Bink' Knowles

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4279
    • http://www.binkster.net/index.shtml
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2007, 12:57:27 pm »

Very nice photos, Will. By far the best capture of the venue and the atmosphere.

I'm surprised by the very small amount of hearing protection in evidence. Most of the testing was reasonable volume, eh?

-Bink
Logged
Michael 'Bink' Knowles
www.binkster.net

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: NYC Subwoofer Shootout 2007 Results Part II
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2007, 01:24:48 pm »

Depends on what you call "reasonable" Laughing . On the second day typically 130-140dB 16' from cabinets.  A fair number of us had them hanging around our necks, but I would say that most of the time we didn't use them.  The listening tests were-for the most part-short, with a long break while cabinets got swapped out.

The mains were backed down a bit, so we didn't get the "Icepick in the forhead" effect. Very Happy
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 22   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.033 seconds with 18 queries.