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Author Topic: 2 15 with 2 inch horn or quasi three way  (Read 6997 times)

brad smith

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2 15 with 2 inch horn or quasi three way
« on: August 24, 2004, 09:47:29 am »

System consists of Peavey DTH 4215 and DTH 218 subs ran stereo three way with GPS 1500for the highs, GPS 3500 mids, and 2 GPS 2600 bridged for the lows through a TDM crossover. I was wanting some advice from people that know more than I do. Here's the question. Should I rewire the cabinet to make it a REAL bi amped cabinet by replacing the 4215 speaker plate and putting in a new speakon plug and have it wired only for a bi amp signal instead of the way Peavey designed it as a quasi three way. I was thinking of making it more like a JBL SR 4733 with the two 15's and the horn. I'm just really curious as to what other people have to say about the setup and what they would do. We play mostly small to mid sized clubs with the occasional outdoor show. This month were out side three times and I just want some opinions.

Thanks,

Brad
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Dave Rickard

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Re: 2 15 with 2 inch horn or quasi three way
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2004, 10:59:05 am »

http://www.peavey.com/media/pdf/misc/addingasub.pdf

is the web address for a .pdf article by Peavey that addresses this, in part.

If the link doesn't work, go to Peavey.com and click on "tech notes",  there is a list of articles there.

daver
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Dave
Yorkville dealer

"The wrong piece of gear, at the right price, is still the wrong piece of gear."

"If you don't have good stuff at each end of the signal chain, (mics and speakers) what you use in between is just turd polish."--Dave Dermont

brad smith

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Re: 2 15 with 2 inch horn or quasi three way
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2004, 09:41:48 am »

Would anyone try to rewire the cabinet or keep it the same way it is designed? I've read the article in the tech notes and am still not what I should do. I bought the system at a great price and I'm not 100% satisfied with the sound that is coming out of the system. Please give me some advice as what you would do. I would have preferred to buy a JBL 4733-4719 combination but I couldn't afford that system so I bought the DTH 4215-218 rig that has the quasi three way set up in the top cab. PLEASE give me your opinions on what you would do.

Thanks,

Brad
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Dave Rickard

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Re: 2 15 with 2 inch horn or quasi three way
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2004, 02:53:42 pm »

Brad,

Help me under stand your setup and I'll take a stab at it.

Are you running a 3-way crossover?  When you say 3-way is the horn receive it's own separate signal, and the DTH woof section is getting the mid band pass?  The real question: Do you any hi-pass on the woofer section of the DTH?  What are your crossover points?

daver
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Dave
Yorkville dealer

"The wrong piece of gear, at the right price, is still the wrong piece of gear."

"If you don't have good stuff at each end of the signal chain, (mics and speakers) what you use in between is just turd polish."--Dave Dermont

yam4000vca Jim Gould

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Re: 2 15 with 2 inch horn or quasi three way
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2004, 05:42:58 pm »

I will take a stab at this and I have not read the Peavey article so I could be missing something.
If you are all the time running this system with the subs I do not see any reason to make the top box run quasi 3 way.
Here is where the problem may be though by eliminating the Peavey cross over all together and going straight to the 15s and the horn.
There is a pretty good chance that there is more going on in that passive cross over for the hi end than you may be aware of. By bypassing that the results would be fine for the 15s I think but maybe create a problem that would give you less than the best result on the high end.
Depending on what kind of speaker management system you may have you could possibly get information from Peavey on what can be done.
Another option is to put the hi end through the passive any way. You are not going to loose much with the hi end going through that and whatever adjustments that are made there for the hi end you would still have.
In this way all you need to do is add another speakon for the 15s. Keep everything intact so if you wanted to run the box full range you could as well as having it factory if you decide to sell it down the road.
I have run other Peavey systems for people and that is the way I have done it. It seems I do recall something going on in that network that needs to stay there. Of course if you have the processing ability there are proably other ways.
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Dave Rickard

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Re: 2 15 with 2 inch horn or quasi three way
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2004, 06:46:38 pm »

Hi Jim,

As I understand this series, the DTH4215 cab is actually a 2.5 way system with a horn (separately biampable), and a 15 linked to another "sub" 15 which has a (hard-wired, non-bypassable) first order LP inductor @ 200 Hz.

So, if Brad is using a 3-way crossover prior to the amps and sending the mids and highs to the 4215's, he has eliminated that second "sub only" 15 by HP-ing before the LP.  The article says add subs to this system by sending full range to the 4215 and only LP-ing your subs.  For biamp operation *only the horn* is separated, so a midband to the 15's still eliminates that second "sub" woof.

Brad,

Is this what you are doing?  Does any of this make sense?

Dave
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Dave
Yorkville dealer

"The wrong piece of gear, at the right price, is still the wrong piece of gear."

"If you don't have good stuff at each end of the signal chain, (mics and speakers) what you use in between is just turd polish."--Dave Dermont

Mike MacWillie

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Re: 2 15 with 2 inch horn or quasi three way
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2004, 07:43:53 pm »

I believe what he wants to do is remove that inductor, and have the two 15's running the same frequency range. I don't see why it isnt possible.. Not sure what the response would be like though.
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brad smith

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Re: 2 15 with 2 inch horn or quasi three way
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2004, 09:24:34 pm »

I'm using a TDM crossover crossing over at about 150 and 1800 if I remember right. Everything is cased up and in the trailer. I'll know for sure where at Friday night. Peavey responded to my question about the crossover question. When it is bi amped there is still an inductor in line with the bottom 15 so it is a quasi three way when either bi amped or ran full range. I talked to a guy that does regional sound using a JBL 4733-4719 rig several cabs and he suggested the idea of switching the wiring. I'm ready to try something else. Anybody know where I can get a speaker plate that will mount on the back of that cab. Peavey told me that they did not have any left. Back to the rig. Ran three way with three different signals with the crossover. I sometimes feel that I'm not getting the most of that system and am ready to try anything. HELP ME PLEASE> I really appreciate the opinions. One of the best ways to learn. Also, what kick drum setting does anyone suggest for a D4. Currently using the fusion tuned all the way down.

Thanks again, this is a great tool for people like me,

Brad
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Mac Kerr

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Re: 2 15 with 2 inch horn or quasi three way
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2004, 10:36:37 pm »

The tech paper that daver posted the link to explains pretty clearly why should not remove the inductor on the second 15" driver. It also explains why you should not cross over to a real sub at a frequency as high as 150Hz. The inductor is there to roll out one of the 15's above 300Hz where there would start to be a lot of comb filtering in the mids because of the adjacent drivers. This same technique is used in the Meyer line arrays.

The paper also explains that if you cross over to subs at 150 as you have, you are only using the double 15's from 150-300Hz as 1 of them rolls out at 300 for the reason explained above. If you low pass your subs at 85-90Hz and let you DTH-4's run with no high pass on the 15's, or high passed at 40Hz you will be getting almost 2 more octaves out of the double 15's, and your subs will only be working at real "sub" frequencies. You should have more low end this way, and still avoid the comb filtering by letting one of the 15's go away at midrange frequencies.

Since from your description you have not yet tried the manufacturer's recommended method for setting up these speakers, you should give that a try before you modify the speakers with possibly detrimental results.

Mac Kerr
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yam4000vca Jim Gould

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Re: 2 15 with 2 inch horn or quasi three way
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2004, 11:27:34 pm »

I am understanding of the way the box is to work in its factory setup.
My idea was basically to just turn it into a standard dual 15 box when being used with subs.
As far as any comb filtering going on between the 15s in that box I am sure some of that exists but myself and many others have run dual 15 boxes(I use a dual 15 on the lower mid on a 4way system now)and notice no terrible results from it.
I was more concerned about things that could be being done to the high end than worrying about the 15s.
In this case I think I would cross them over lower than 150hz. I think 100hz would be good. I would also go a bit lower between the horn and the 15s. 1800hz seems a bit high to me with 15s.I think I would try between 1200hz and 1600hz there.
As usual the ear has to be the final judge of all this.
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