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[Jacob Robinson]

I am trying to persuade our church to do a PA overhaul so I have went out and gotten several quotes and the last one I got was almost 40% less than the others.  My question is what your opinion of the components that were chosen and the quality of the system as it might work together as a whole.  I know without more details about the acoustics of the church you cannot give too much feedback, but my question is more about the quality of products chosen.

Thank your for your opinions, (I hope this is allowed)

our church is approx.

30' x 75'
8' walls on sides, with gabled ceiling that are 14' in center
We have a full worship band and play a very wide variety of music

Here are the proposed components.

(1) Allen & Heath ZED-436  http://www.allen-heath.com/zed/zed436

(2) DAS Artec 28 (house speakers). . . . .http://www.dasaudio.com/index.asp?pagina=productos&subpagina=1&galeria=176&producto=476&numPagina=2&lang=en

(2) Bag End D10E-I (subs) http://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/2798-D10E-I%20Bag%20End%20specs.pdf

(2) FBT Verve 8M (stage monitors) http://www.fbtusa.net/FBTVerve8mmonitortc.html

(4) FBT Jolly 5RA (Monitors for instruments and individuals) http://www.fbtusa.net/jy5ra.html

(1) Bag End Infra  Processor http://www.bagend.com/bagend/downloads/inframxb.pdf

(1) Driverack PA+ http://www.dbxpro.com/PA+/

(3) Crown XTI-1000 amps http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XTi1000/?gclid=COW3ufGq_qYCFcIKKgodIy-4Zg

(1) Furman PSPROII power manager http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?id=PS-PRO_II

[John Fiorello]

Hi Jacob!

Can you give us something to compare this list to, like what was suggested by other designers?

Also, did you specify what type of equipment was used or did each designer choose equipment based on their measurements of the space?


Thanks!


JF

[Tom Young]

I am trying to persuade our church to do a PA overhaul so I have went out and gotten several quotes and the last one I got was almost 40% less than the others.  My question is what your opinion of the components that were chosen and the quality of the system as it might work together as a whole.  I know without more details about the acoustics of the church you cannot give too much feedback, but my question is more about the quality of products chosen.

I'm curious about the services offered by the competing contractors.

Do any of them base their designs on room modeling and/or did any of them conduct a site visit and attend a service or two ?

Do they provide measurement and optimization as part of their installation and commissioning ?

How about sound checks, training and follow up hand-holding ?

[Jacob Robinson]

Here are the other two competing quotes, it seems that they are all offering very different products with estimates from $11,000 to 23,000

Phase I
OPTION 1
 $5189.93 – 10% church discount = $4670.94
MACKIE ONYX 32.4
FURMAN PS-8R II
ALTO MAXIDRIVE 3.4
BELDEN MIC CABLE
MIDDLE ATLANTIC WALL PLATE / RACK
NEUTRIK CONNECTORS
LABOR

OPTION 2
$5809.94 – 10% church discount = $5228.95
ALLEN & HEATH GL2400 32
FURMAN PS-PRO II
DRIVERACK 260
BELDEN MIC CABLE
MIDDLE ATLANTIC WALL PLATE
NEUTRIK CONNECTORS
LABOR

Phase II
OPTION 1
 $3072.00 – 10% church discount = $2764.80
Personal Monitoring System
Hear Technologies System with 4 Mixers
2 Yorkville YX15P floor Wedges for Singers
Stands for Mixers
Cat 5 Cabling
Connectors
6 25’ Mic Cables
4 15’ Mic Cables
2 10’ Mic Cables
4 20’ Inst Cables
2 10’ Inst Cables
Labor

OPTION 2
$4894.00 – 10% church discount = $4404.60
Personal Monitoring System
Aviom System with 4 Mixers
2 Yorkville YX15P floor Wedges for Singers
Stands for Mixers
Cat 5 Cabling
Connectors
6 20’ Mic Cables
4 15’ Mic Cables
2 10’ Mic Cables
4 20’ Inst Cables
2 10’ Inst Cables
Labor
If only floor wedges are to be used a minimum of 4 YX15P’s are needed along with an ART
Headphone Amp $1700.00 – 10% church discount = $1530.00
I would also recommend the floor boxes be installed to reduce breakage of cat lines across
the platform if personal listening system is used see phase V pricing

Phase III
OPTION 1
$2474.98 – 10% church discount = $2227.49
AUDIX D6 KICK MIC
KICK MIC STAND
WALL TREATMENT BEHIND DRUMS
2 AT 3000 HANDHELD MICS
1 GALAXY HEADSET FOR PASTOR(TO BE USED WITH EXISTING BODY PACK)
1 HEADSET MIC FOR KEYS VOCAL
4 HOSA OR EQUIVALENT DI’S
LABOR

OPTION 2
 $3003.99 – 10% church discount = $2703.60
AUDIX DP7 MIC KIT
ALL OTHER EQUIPMENT THE SAME
LABOR

Phase IV
OPTION 1
$4778.00 – 10% church discount = $4300.20
2 YORKVILLE NX750P SPEAKERS (FLOWN)
2 YORKVILLE NX720S SUBS (SET ON PLATFORM)
FLYWARE
RELAYS
CONNECTORS
LABOR

OPTION 2
$5558.00 – 10% church discount = 5002.20
2 QSC K SERIES TECHNOLOGY SPEAKERS
2 QSC K SERIES TECHNOLOGY SUBS
FLYWARE
RELAYS
CONNECTORS
LABOR

Phase V
OPTION 1
 $3683.90 – 10% church discount = $3315.51
8 Mystery Floor Boxes
2 Speakers for Perimeter w Volume Controls
70v Amp
Labor


OPTION 2
 $3953.90 – 10% church discount = $3558.51
8 Mystery Floor Boxes with Power
3 Speakers for Perimeter w Volume Controls
70v Amp
Labor

OPTION 1: $1869.87       OPTION 2: $2321.97

[Brad Weber]

Tom beat me to it, but how they came up with the equipment listed and what they plan to offer beyond the equipment (testing and adjustments, training, documentation, system warranty, etc.) is part of the value represented by a bid.

The other aspect I often encounter is what the bidders were provided as input or direction.  It's interesting to talk to the bidders on a project and ask their impression of what is wanted, you can find that sometimes you'd think they're talking about totally different projects.  What happens is that the different bidders, depending on who they talk to and when, can get significantly different impressions of what is desired.  To get more of an 'apples-to-apples' comparison, it usually helps to do what you can to make sure that all bidders are working from the same information.  It also helps anyone reviewing the bids to have that same information.

That seems to potentially be a factor here.  I get the impression the list you noted with two options for each phase is actually from one bidder and I'm not sure what the phases represent since that does not seem to be reflected in the other bids.  However, I'm seeing is things like one bid with apprarently no wireless mics, one bid with two wireless mics and two lower cost headset mics and one bid with eight wireless mics including two Countryman E6s.  Some bids with speakers and amps and some with powered speakers, the latter of which seems to include no speaker processing and which would require power that you may have to provide at additional cost.  A CD recorder/player in one bid that does not appear in the others.  One bidder that addresse stage boxes when the others do not appear to.  And so on.  There seem to be a number of fairly significant differences but which is most 'right' or most responsive is impossible to assess without knowing the basis of the bids and what you want.

I've had several churches hire me to help them review the bids they received when situations like this arose.  I had one church where the bids included a simple equipment list and total price from one bidder and a complete and very thorough bid package from another with information on the proposed process, work schedule, payments schedule, qualifications, warranty, system concept and even predicted system performance.  The difference in price was not that great but as in probably the majority of these situations it turned out that what was really being asked was not which bid was the best value but rather could the low bid be absolutely ruled out or not.  Which are you really asking?

[Jacob Robinson]

Here is basically the story of how this process has went so far. . .In December of 09 I talked with the board of our church about getting a new PA system and they told me to get some bids, so I started in the yellow pages and scheduled a meeting with Sound Force the designer pushed wireless mics to clean up the stage area from cords and was using the Bose Speakers as mains and monitors simultaneously (I have never seen this type of design which made me skeptical)  approx $18,500


Then six months later I was given the name of the person who I met with and suggested the phases so that the budget could be swallowed a little easier.  I am not totally for "phases" because if some in the congregation are wondering why we need new equipment they may never notice much of a change in quality if it is introduced gradually over time.  This estimate seemed to be more involved from an installation standpoint with all of the floor boxes (those would be added when stage carpet is replaced) He also suggested personal monitoring system to keep stage volume down (but i am not sure how the band and vocalists will adapt to PMS and how to use them)  aprox $23,000+


Then about 3 months ago a gentle called me out of the blue and said he had heard that we were looking for a new PA and went on to tell me that he had an PhD in Acoustic Research (not sure if that was a salespitch or not, but I have seen some of his work in very large churches who seemed very pleased with their end product) He is the one who suggested putting the two DAS 28's in (I liked that idea because of their lower profile when flown horizontally)


With all three quotes training and and full installation was included beyond that they had a very vague ideas to work because I didn't want to restrict the system that could be designed.  I just basically told all three that we have a very contemporary worship band and that we wanted a 32 channel mixer and stay around 10 - 15 grand...I realize that all three quotes are very different, which makes it very hard to compare apples to apples.

I would love to do the install myself and save the church, but I have no experience in the design or initial setup portion of a complete overhaul like this. . . Does anybody have anyone have any suggestions of how we should progress from here?

I understand this is a difficult question to ask people who have never visited our church, but I appreciate any and all responses. 




Below I posted a picture of our current dinosaur of a mixer a Peavey MS 1621

[Frank DeWitt]

There has been some real good input here. especially Tom's questions.

Let me add, what are you trying to fix?  Are there parts of the room that can't hear, or cant understand the spoken word?  Is the stage volume to loud?  Is the mix bad? do you need more channels? 

Answers to these questions could have a big effect on what get's done, or on what get's done first.  For instance, lets say that spoken word sounds great, A CD sounds great, but there is way to much stage volume.  Then step one might be in ear monitors.  The IEMs might drive getting a new snake, and a new board,

OR

If a CD sounds bad, and a lot worse over here then right there, then maybe you need acoustic treatments or new speakers.

Frank

[Jacob Robinson]

Problems we currently have:

Only 2 monitor mixes
Two few channels; 16 inputs, but only 13 work
Outdated and low quality speakers produce lots of volume, but little clarity
Amps that choose when they want to work, you never know when one will cut out or it might work to perfection. 

all major components are 20+ yrs old, mics and CD recorder are new though

[Frank DeWitt]

Problems we currently have:

Only 2 monitor mixes
Two few channels; 16 inputs, but only 13 work
Outdated and low quality speakers produce lots of volume, but little clarity
Amps that choose when they want to work, you never know when one will cut out or it might work to perfection. 

all major components are 20+ yrs old, mics and CD recorder are new though

OK with this info, you have a place to start.  But first, why am I going off in this direction.

You don't have a specification, therefor your quotes are all over.  That would be OK if you had one person you really trust, but you don't seem to have that either.

The first part is not to hard.  You want more monitor mixes and more auxes, so you need a new board and a new snake (To use with or instead of the old one.)

On the board you need to decide if you want to go analog or digital, and high end or low end.  You can get opinions on this forum or the lab lounge forum on boards.  There have been some good threads lately.

The speakers are much more difficult. They could lack clarity because they always did, or because one driver is blown, or because they are in the wrong place in the room, or because the room needs work.   I would start with these speakers and use this as a way to get some good sound fast, and a way to get to know an expert.

If there is one of the vendors you are leaning towards, you could ask them to rent you speakers (and amps) for one Sunday as a demo.  This would show you a few things. (assuming it results in good sound)  1 It's not the room. 2 The guy knows how to chose speakers.

If there isn't a vendor who will do this or you don't feel comfortable with this route then you really need to find an expert.  You can ask on this list (give your location) and on ChurchSoundCheck.com and see who you can find.

An expert will do the things Tom asked about.  They will base their designs on room modeling,  They will conduct a site visit and possibly attend a service or two.
They will provide measurement and optimization as part of their installation and commissioning. (Paraphrased from Tom)

Your quotes show 4 to 5K on speakers.  If you get them wrong, you need to start over.  I would start with the speakers (and amps) because you need them the most, but I would find and use an expert.

BTW  Amps usually work or they fail.  If they are going in and out, I suspect the speakers, or wiring.

Frank

[Jacob Robinson]

I would love to find someone who I can trust.   Should i post my location in this thread, open a new topic, or a new topic and under a different section?


We are a smaller church in:

Germantown, OH (40 miles north of Cincinnati and 15 miles south of Dayton)
I am looking to get advice/a contractor to completely overhaul our PA $10,000 would be a target budget, but I do realize that that may not be feasible.

Thanks again,
Jake

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