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Author Topic: what in the world are they thinking ?  (Read 24287 times)

kristianjohnsen

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Re: what in the world are they thinking ?
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2011, 04:09:25 pm »

John, I get what you're saying and as Peter noted, there may be something lost in translation and editing but what in the article actually indicates the results are good, that the person doing this know what they're doing or that the people are happy with the results?  People assuming a good result due to the product without that actually being stated seems to reflect more on the marketing than on the product.
 
For example, "Sound professionals present were surprised by the performance of the slimline speakers." means that 'sound professionals' were surprised by the performance in some way.  However, we don't know who those people were and "surprise" is not inherently a good thing and I have been surprised many times by how bad some things sounded.  In fact this reminded me a bit of a comment Dave Gunness made at a trade show regarding how many 'pros' would listen just on axis and apparently never consider off axis response or how the speaker might interact in an array.  Given the comments made in the article and the absence of comments regarding coverage and interaction, one wonders is that perspective is reflected.
 
Although it is likely the impression that was intended, there is nothing in that marketing piece that actually says that qualified live sound pros or the audience were pleased with the overall audio results in that application, it actually seems to focus more on the visual aspect being what defined any success.

Good points Brian. I appreciate the technical discussion that this topic has created, but I am just confused why the original post suggests that there is no way that this system could possibly work. How exactly do we judge what is right or wrong when it come to something so subjective?

I guess my main point is that we should not be so quick to conclude that our fellow professionals in the field working night after night, successful in what they do with the equipment they choose, are making the wrong choices because a spec sheet says it wont work, or because someone disagrees with the choice.

The question also still remains, has anyone here actually heard this show using these speakers in the venues that they are playing? If an artist likes the sound of these speakers as monitors is he or she wrong for liking them?

John

When I design a system, the performance is not "subjective."  There are objective criteria to be met, often with a third party proof of performance evaluation.   If things don't work the way I said they would, we don't get paid.

That said, the issue presented by the OP is that, as pictured (and without further details in the article), this is not a "normal" deployment of the product.  There is no data showing measured results, no specific information regarding changes in processing or hidden switches that somehow make the K Array a stellar performer in the pictured application.

As neither the sound designer nor K or Sennheiser has posted to give us that information, I fully understand Mr. Young's skepticism.  He is not one to make public statements without careful consideration and, based on my knowledge of these types of systems I have no trouble accepting his premise.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

Considering the level of artists you work for I'm pretty darn sure you get plenty of chances to deploy gear as per VERY subjective opinions, too.  And the way I understand that level of the business, if those subjective criteria are not met, that's when you don't get paid...
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John Schimpf

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Re: what in the world are they thinking ?
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2011, 05:27:38 pm »

Good points Brian. I appreciate the technical discussion that this topic has created, but I am just confused why the original post suggests that there is no way that this system could possibly work. How exactly do we judge what is right or wrong when it come to something so subjective?

I guess my main point is that we should not be so quick to conclude that our fellow professionals in the field working night after night, successful in what they do with the equipment they choose, are making the wrong choices because a spec sheet says it wont work, or because someone disagrees with the choice.

The question also still remains, has anyone here actually heard this show using these speakers in the venues that they are playing? If an artist likes the sound of these speakers as monitors is he or she wrong for liking them?

John


When I design a system, the performance is not "subjective."  There are objective criteria to be met, often with a third party proof of performance evaluation.   If things don't work the way I said they would, we don't get paid.

That said, the issue presented by the OP is that, as pictured (and without further details in the article), this is not a "normal" deployment of the product.  There is no data showing measured results, no specific information regarding changes in processing or hidden switches that somehow make the K Array a stellar performer in the pictured application.

As neither the sound designer nor K or Sennheiser has posted to give us that information, I fully understand Mr. Young's skepticism.  He is not one to make public statements without careful consideration and, based on my knowledge of these types of systems I have no trouble accepting his premise.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc


Considering the level of artists you work for I'm pretty darn sure you get plenty of chances to deploy gear as per VERY subjective opinions, too.  And the way I understand that level of the business, if those subjective criteria are not met, that's when you don't get paid...

Well Kristen, I do as much as possible to make sure that what I am asking for is provided. And yes, of course my opinions are subjective! I like to think that I do a great job, and I am fortunate to keep working year after year. I like to think that a lot of my choices allow me to put on a better production that is easy for the crew to execute, and for the backline and sound companies to provide for.

Thank you for proving my point exactly. I am just trying to stick up for the poor guy that everyone is hammering on here. You know, the guy with the gig, that has the writeup on a major manufacturers website. The company obviously likes the fact that this equipment can be used in many different ways. Versatility is a big selling point, no?

No need for the personal attack btw. You don't have any idea who you are talking to.

John

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Chris James

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Re: what in the world are they thinking ?
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2011, 07:01:33 pm »

So if the original question was "what in the world are they thinking?" maybe the answer is from one of their Kobra specs....or am I missing something?
The spec sheet says:
"The KK50vb moves the goal post even further from the competition with its patented (pending) variable beam engineering. All Kobra systems have the ability to be mounted in the traditional vertical manner or horizontally making them all but invisible installations such as TV studios ,places of worship ,etc .The KK50vb has another advantage: it can change the coverage from the usual 7 to an amazing 120 at the mere flick of a switch. This ability coupled with its diminutive size and weight make this an unparalleled line array system that is perfect for almost any venue from small clubs to large outdoor events.

I think all the Kobra series have this technology, I dont know for sure but I have heard an install, they work fine, sound much like any other hi passed front fill, they have installed them in what is considered one of the finest concert halls in North America for acoustics the George Weston Recital hall in Toronto to augment an L'acoustic sound system. They are extremely particular about everything that is installed into that venue so draw your own conclusions.
http://www.tocentre.com/georgeweston
Maybe the patent pending is the reason for the lack of explanation on how they work but they do work.



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Brad Weber

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Re: what in the world are they thinking ?
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2011, 10:17:03 pm »

So if the original question was "what in the world are they thinking?" maybe the answer is from one of their Kobra specs....or am I missing something?
The spec sheet says:
"The KK50vb moves the goal post even further from the competition with its patented (pending) variable beam engineering. All Kobra systems have the ability to be mounted in the traditional vertical manner or horizontally making them all but invisible installations such as TV studios ,places of worship ,etc.The KK50vb has another advantage: it can change the coverage from the usual 7 to an amazing 120 at the mere flick of a switch. This ability coupled with its diminutive size and weight make this an unparalleled line array system that is perfect for almost any venue from small clubs to large outdoor events.
As already noted, what is referenced in the article are the KK50 and the KR200 and not the KK50VB.  Even if the KK50 was the KK50VB, that would not be relevant to the KR200, so I think we can probably drop the 'flood' aspect of the KK50VB as being relevant other than that some may have thought it was relevant without verifying it.
 
I think all the Kobra series have this technology, I dont know for sure but I have heard an install, they work fine, sound much like any other hi passed front fill, they have installed them in what is considered one of the finest concert halls in North America for acoustics the George Weston Recital hall in Toronto to augment an L'acoustic sound system. They are extremely particular about everything that is installed into that venue so draw your own conclusions.
http://www.tocentre.com/georgeweston
Maybe the patent pending is the reason for the lack of explanation on how they work but they do work.
The KR200 that the article notes was used for the larger venues is not even part of the Kobra series, it is part of the Red Line series intended for portable use and the stated nominal pattern is 100 horizontal by 10 degrees vertical for the KK50 and 100 degrees horizontal by 7 degrees vertical for the KR200.  Neither seems to have any reference to or option for a wide pattern operating mode.
 
As far as some of the K-Array products being used successfully elsewhere, like any speaker, just because a model provided good results when properly applied for an application does not mean that every similar model applied in any manner would provide similar results in every application.  Even the best product can be poorly applied and I believe that the whole point of the OP was the application of the product and how two speakers oriented such that they have a horizontal pattern that is not only quite narrow at some frequencies but that also varies significantly with frequency, especially for the KK50, would serve successfully for front fill.  One has to think the resulting level and response would vary significantly throughout the seating area covered by the front fills.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 10:01:02 am by Brad Weber »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: what in the world are they thinking ?
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2011, 12:03:16 am »

No need for the personal attack btw. You don't have any idea who you are talking to.

John

That was probably pointed my way, John.

I'm all about giving the artist what they need to be presented in the artistic manner they desire, and I've done some silly things (that I tried to talk them out of) because, as Kristian points out, that's what we're hired to do.

Regardless of how this deployment sounds, if the artist is happy with it; if whomever signs the cheques is happy...

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

kristianjohnsen

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Re: what in the world are they thinking ?
« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2011, 01:40:50 am »

Good points Brian. I appreciate the technical discussion that this topic has created, but I am just confused why the original post suggests that there is no way that this system could possibly work. How exactly do we judge what is right or wrong when it come to something so subjective?

I guess my main point is that we should not be so quick to conclude that our fellow professionals in the field working night after night, successful in what they do with the equipment they choose, are making the wrong choices because a spec sheet says it wont work, or because someone disagrees with the choice.

The question also still remains, has anyone here actually heard this show using these speakers in the venues that they are playing? If an artist likes the sound of these speakers as monitors is he or she wrong for liking them?

John


When I design a system, the performance is not "subjective."  There are objective criteria to be met, often with a third party proof of performance evaluation.   If things don't work the way I said they would, we don't get paid.

That said, the issue presented by the OP is that, as pictured (and without further details in the article), this is not a "normal" deployment of the product.  There is no data showing measured results, no specific information regarding changes in processing or hidden switches that somehow make the K Array a stellar performer in the pictured application.

As neither the sound designer nor K or Sennheiser has posted to give us that information, I fully understand Mr. Young's skepticism.  He is not one to make public statements without careful consideration and, based on my knowledge of these types of systems I have no trouble accepting his premise.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc


Considering the level of artists you work for I'm pretty darn sure you get plenty of chances to deploy gear as per VERY subjective opinions, too.  And the way I understand that level of the business, if those subjective criteria are not met, that's when you don't get paid...

Well Kristen, I do as much as possible to make sure that what I am asking for is provided. And yes, of course my opinions are subjective! I like to think that I do a great job, and I am fortunate to keep working year after year. I like to think that a lot of my choices allow me to put on a better production that is easy for the crew to execute, and for the backline and sound companies to provide for.

Thank you for proving my point exactly. I am just trying to stick up for the poor guy that everyone is hammering on here. You know, the guy with the gig, that has the writeup on a major manufacturers website. The company obviously likes the fact that this equipment can be used in many different ways. Versatility is a big selling point, no?

No need for the personal attack btw. You don't have any idea who you are talking to.

John

Wholy smokes, John!

First of all, my name is Kristian, Kristen is a girl's name (here at least).

I was responding to Tim McC, that's why I qouted his last post and additionally made the part I was responding specifically to into "bold lettering".

I was in fact in agreement with you all along (and I believe I managed to be that without making a personal attack towards Tim McC):
What I was pointing out was that even if most pro audio designs are supposed to "measure flat in every seat" and all that - very often, if the artist, producer or just the guy writing the check decides on something that makes that "perfect" design impossible, then that's what going to be the new "correct" for that gig.  If it gets the job done sucessfully, it's good.

So the request for no personal attacks goes right back at'cha.  I have no idea who you are, but let us know, now that you started down that road.  For the record:  I'm a audio nobody running a small sound co in a small city in Norway.

Kristian Johnsen
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John Schimpf

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Re: what in the world are they thinking ?
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2011, 08:37:16 am »

Well Kristen, I do as much as possible to make sure that what I am asking for is provided. And yes, of course my opinions are subjective! I like to think that I do a great job, and I am fortunate to keep working year after year. I like to think that a lot of my choices allow me to put on a better production that is easy for the crew to execute, and for the backline and sound companies to provide for.

Thank you for proving my point exactly. I am just trying to stick up for the poor guy that everyone is hammering on here. You know, the guy with the gig, that has the writeup on a major manufacturers website. The company obviously likes the fact that this equipment can be used in many different ways. Versatility is a big selling point, no?

No need for the personal attack btw. You don't have any idea who you are talking to.

John


Wholy smokes, John!

First of all, my name is Kristian, Kristen is a girl's name (here at least).

I was responding to Tim McC, that's why I qouted his last post and additionally made the part I was responding specifically to into "bold lettering".

I was in fact in agreement with you all along (and I believe I managed to be that without making a personal attack towards Tim McC):
What I was pointing out was that even if most pro audio designs are supposed to "measure flat in every seat" and all that - very often, if the artist, producer or just the guy writing the check decides on something that makes that "perfect" design impossible, then that's what going to be the new "correct" for that gig.  If it gets the job done sucessfully, it's good.

So the request for no personal attacks goes right back at'cha.  I have no idea who you are, but let us know, now that you started down that road.  For the record:  I'm a audio nobody running a small sound co in a small city in Norway.

Kristian Johnsen

Sorry Kristian, I misunderstood.

John
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Mac Kerr

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Re: what in the world are they thinking ?
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2011, 11:05:23 am »

Wholy smokes, John!

First of all, my name is Kristian, Kristen is a girl's name (here at least).

That's OK, he seems to think Brad is Brian as well. ;-)

Mac
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Lee Richard

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Re: what in the world are they thinking ?
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2011, 06:27:07 am »

Another goof after some reading, an article on Ziogiorgio about the KR400S being used at the Lincoln Center in New York. The article quotes:
 "With the K-array, the sound dispersion is 120 degrees horizontally, and only seven degrees vertically. This allows you to reach every audience member with greater precision." 

After reading the manual, the specs are:
Coverage           
Horizontal 90
Vertical mechanically variable  6-20

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: what in the world are they thinking ?
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2011, 06:27:07 am »


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