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Author Topic: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install  (Read 7687 times)

John Rosborough

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Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« on: April 20, 2011, 08:57:53 pm »

I am in the process of updating my sound equipement at my chruch. I plan on working with a small budget of about $10,000. The church is small 35 x 70 feet. But as I research and plan I have several concerns. Equipment List: Mackie 1604, Sennheiser e835 mics (6) for Prase Team, Shure PGX Wireless (2) pulpit and soloist, Shure Easyflex EZG12 gooseneck mic (pulpit podium), dbx 1231 GEQ (3), dbx 160A comp/lim (2 and more in the future as I include drums and things to be recorded), 10in custom made Bill Jenkins monitors (2) (Ohhh yeah!), Crown xti2k amps (3), Tascam cd RW 901 recorder, and a Denon DN 4500 dual player.

Concern#1: Members who sit in the front rows get blasted with the sound, but the members in the back of the santuary get very little sound... Is getting two pairs of speakers (one pair for the front half, and one pair for the back rows) a good solution to this problem?

Concern#2: I dont't plan on using hanging choir mics (ceiling fan placement), but I've been hearing a lot of great things about Audix microboom mics... Does anyone know if these mics will be a great solution?

Concer#3: I really want to add a sub in the sanctuary, but really don't have a place for them. Has anyone had any problems placing subs under the pulpit (vibrations, boomy lows, etc)?

Concern#4: I am tossed between buying a Mackie 1604 and a Presonus 16.4.2. Has anyone received positive feedback on the Presonus?

Concern #5: Speakers???? Looking at Peavey Sanctuary series and JBL's AC series. I'm looking at speakers pushing 500w program.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 09:08:35 pm by John Rosborough »
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Minister John

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2011, 09:27:55 pm »

I am in the process of updating my sound equipement at my chruch. I plan on working with a small budget of about $10,000. The church is small 35 x 70 feet. But as I research and plan I have several concerns. Equipment List: Mackie 1604, Sennheiser e835 mics (6) for Prase Team, Shure PGX Wireless (2) pulpit and soloist, Shure Easyflex EZG12 gooseneck mic (pulpit podium), dbx 1231 GEQ (3), dbx 160A comp/lim (2 and more in the future as I include drums and things to be recorded), 10in custom made Bill Jenkins monitors (2) (Ohhh yeah!), Crown xti2k amps (3), Tascam cd RW 901 recorder, and a Denon DN 4500 dual player.

Concern#1: Members who sit in the front rows get blasted with the sound, but the members in the back of the santuary get very little sound... Is getting two pairs of speakers (one pair for the front half, and one pair for the back rows) a good solution to this problem?

This is one way to do it.  However, you'll be ahead of the game if you can have the proper speakers flown so as to somewhat ameliorate the difference between front and back listeners.  How much ceiling height do you have to work with?  Using delay speakers (time-aligned with digital delay) can seemingly help out, but there will be other issues with multiple sound sources despite the time-alignment........which will only be aligned in a small area where the measurement is taken.

Quote
Concern#2: I dont't plan on using hanging choir mics (ceiling fan placement), but I've been hearing a lot of great things about Audix microboom mics... Does anyone know if these mics will be a great solution?

They are very good mics.  The primary concerns, though, will be the amount of sound coming from the choir for the mics to pick up as well as how the choir is utilized.  If you're trying to get a choir presence along with an amplified ensemble using area mics can be somewhat problematic.

Quote
Concern#3: I really want to add a sub in the sanctuary, but really don't have a place for them. Has anyone had any problems placing subs under the pulpit (vibrations, boomy lows, etc)?

If you're placing a sub in close proximity to a speaking mic you'd be well advised to use "aux fed subs" so you can route only the keys, kick and other sources needing LF reinforcement and keep ALL voice mics completely out of the subs.
Quote
Concern#4: I am tossed between buying a Mackie 1604 and a Presonus 16.4.2. Has anyone received positive feedback on the Presonus?

I have used the Mackie and own and use a Presonus.  The Presonus would definitely be my preference between the two.

Quote

Concern #5: Speakers???? Looking at Peavey Sanctuary series and JBL's AC series. I'm looking at speakers pushing 500w program.

Again, speaker choice will depend on placement options.  This gets back to the question of ceiling height.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2011, 10:46:38 pm »

I am in the process of updating my sound equipement at my chruch. I plan on working with a small budget of about $10,000. The church is small 35 x 70 feet. But as I research and plan I have several concerns. Equipment List: Mackie 1604, Sennheiser e835 mics (6) for Prase Team, Shure PGX Wireless (2) pulpit and soloist, Shure Easyflex EZG12 gooseneck mic (pulpit podium), dbx 1231 GEQ (3), dbx 160A comp/lim (2 and more in the future as I include drums and things to be recorded), 10in custom made Bill Jenkins monitors (2) (Ohhh yeah!), Crown xti2k amps (3), Tascam cd RW 901 recorder, and a Denon DN 4500 dual player.
That tells us something about the existing equipment and your budget but you haven't told us anything about your services, the type of music involved, the instruments involved, what the space is like other than overall floor dimensions, what problems you're trying to address, your goals and so on.  Basically, the information focuses on the equipment itself rather than the purpose of and goals for the system in general, thus providing a very limited basis for any system and equipment assessment or recommendations.
 
Concern#1: Members who sit in the front rows get blasted with the sound, but the members in the back of the santuary get very little sound... Is getting two pairs of speakers (one pair for the front half, and one pair for the back rows) a good solution to this problem?
Don't know enough about the space, the goals, etc. to say.  One thing to possibly consider is that if the goal of having two mains up front is stereo then that means all listeners covered fairly equally by both channels, which can get much more complex to actually achieve if you introduce fills and multiple speakers.

Concern#2: I dont't plan on using hanging choir mics (ceiling fan placement), but I've been hearing a lot of great things about Audix microboom mics... Does anyone know if these mics will be a great solution?
To be direct, a great solution for what?  You haven't indicated that you have a choir or where it is located or how that relates to other things on stage, so I'm not real clear on the purpose for these mics or what you are trying to do.

Concer#3: I really want to add a sub in the sanctuary, but really don't have a place for them. Has anyone had any problems placing subs under the pulpit (vibrations, boomy lows, etc)?
You have not noted bass, kick, keys, etc. being relevant so is a sub required?  And if it is then without knowing the stage size, arrangement, etc. it's difficult to say whether such a location would be feasible or effective.  In general, a subwoofer in such a location can have some challenges and will almost always have the aspect that those seated in the front row right in front of the sub will get a lot of bass while those further back may get much less.

Concern#4: I am tossed between buying a Mackie 1604 and a Presonus 16.4.2. Has anyone received positive feedback on the Presonus?
There is lots of positive and negative feedback available on the StudioLive boards.  A SL 16.4.2 will provide onboard processing which may eliminate needing some of the existing outboard processing and/or planned some of the otherwise planned processing.  The SL boards do have scene store and recall, however they do not have motorized faders so their scene recall may work fine for some people while it does not work well for others.
 
Concern #5: Speakers? ??? Looking at Peavey Sanctuary series and JBL's AC series. I'm looking at speakers pushing 500w program.
How much power the speakers 'push' is not usually really a factor, how much sound they output and where they output it usually matter much more.  So may factors such as size, weight, mounting options, etc.  Again, not enough information to know what you're really trying to do or what is practical in order to offer an informed response.
 
 
I'm sorry if my comments come across as rude or unresponsive, but the point is that there simply is not sufficient information provided for making informed decisions or comments regarding specific equipment.  The way I look at this is simple, if the goal is simply having certain equipment and if that alone defines a successful result then starting with defining that equipment makes sense.  However, what typically defines a successful or acceptable result is more along the lines of providing certain functionality, addressing specific issues, obtaining some desired performance, supporting a defined vision or defined goals of the church in general, etc., and if that is true then start with defining those goals and expectations first and let the equipment selection follow using that information as a basis.
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John Rosborough

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2011, 12:42:46 am »


Concern#1: Members who sit in the front rows get blasted with the sound, but the members in the back of the santuary get very little sound... Is getting two pairs of speakers (one pair for the front half, and one pair for the back rows) a good solution to this problem?

This is one way to do it.  However, you'll be ahead of the game if you can have the proper speakers flown so as to somewhat ameliorate the difference between front and back listeners.  How much ceiling height do you have to work with?  Using delay speakers (time-aligned with digital delay) can seemingly help out, but there will be other issues with multiple sound sources despite the time-alignment........which will only be aligned in a small area where the measurement is taken.

Quote

The church is a two level building. From what general contractors have told me, there's nothing to attach flown speakers to inside the sanctuary. Believe me, I would love to fly them. But it's been ruled out. So I have benn considering mounting speakers to the side of the wall. I am aware of the time delay issues when using multiple speakers, but with all the restrictions inside the sanctuary, I'm not sure what else to apply.
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Minister John

John Rosborough

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2011, 01:26:03 am »

Concern#2: I dont't plan on using hanging choir mics (ceiling fan placement), but I've been hearing a lot of great things about Audix microboom mics... Does anyone know if these mics will be a great solution?

To be direct, a great solution for what?  You haven't indicated that you have a choir or where it is located or how that relates to other things on stage, so I'm not real clear on the purpose for these mics or what you are trying to do.
 
They are very good mics.  The primary concerns, though, will be the amount of sound coming from the choir for the mics to pick up as well as how the choir is utilized.  If you're trying to get a choir presence along with an amplified ensemble using area mics can be somewhat problematic.

Let me paint you the picture. The choir area will be used for a choir. The choir area size is roughly 15 x 15 feet. The musicians are placed about 5 feet from the choir area to the left. The choir area is about 3 feet behind the pulpit area. The ceiling in the choir area is about 7 feet. I have a pic to download, but even cropped it's kinda big, so if you guys want to see let me know.

The style of singing will be Gospel and Bluegrass. The size of the choir will vary: sometimes there are 8, but during our concerts it could be 20-25. Due to the size of the sanctuary, if singing acapella, the song is great. However, once the Leslie Organ kicks in, drums, and at times the bass, the voices are drowned out.

So I would like to purchase mics that can solve ALL concerns: Provide a choir presence during concerts; make those 8 little girls sound great (even if I have to provide reverb), and NOT be drowned out by the band.

So if area mics are problematic, whic mics do you believe are better ones?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 02:11:06 am by John Rosborough »
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Tim Padrick

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2011, 01:42:00 am »

I like the Presonus.  If you decide that it does not fit the budget, get an Allen & Heath MixWiz (older used models available for as little as $400) - it's a Much better mixer than the Mackie.
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John Rosborough

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2011, 02:15:26 am »

I like the Presonus.  If you decide that it does not fit the budget, get an Allen & Heath MixWiz (older used models available for as little as $400) - it's a Much better mixer than the Mackie.

Thanks Tim, I will add the MixWiz to my planning. BTW are you currently using the Presonus? If so, what venue, church, clubs, etc?
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John Rosborough

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2011, 02:36:48 am »

Concer#3: I really want to add a sub in the sanctuary, but really don't have a place for them. Has anyone had any problems placing subs under the pulpit (vibrations, boomy lows, etc)?

You have not noted bass, kick, keys, etc. being relevant so is a sub required?  And if it is then without knowing the stage size, arrangement, etc. it's difficult to say whether such a location would be feasible or effective.  In general, a subwoofer in such a location can have some challenges and will almost always have the aspect that those seated in the front row right in front of the sub will get a lot of bass while those further back may get much less.

If you're placing a sub in close proximity to a speaking mic you'd be well advised to use "aux fed subs" so you can route only the keys, kick and other sources needing LF reinforcement and keep ALL voice mics completely out of the subs.

Yeah, dialing in aux fed subs was going to be my prefer setup. But let's talk about the results of having subs in that size church. The members in the front rows will get the majority of the lows. Is there a solution to that?

The reason I'm asking about subs is that I really want to control all sound in the church. I want to DI box the bass, guitar, and keys; then send them a mix thru monitors, and have all sound go thru the house.

Also, recording is within my future plans, so wanted to mic the drums for that, but also have the drums come thru the house as well.
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Minister John

John Rosborough

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2011, 02:46:10 am »

Concern #5: Speakers???? Looking at Peavey Sanctuary series and JBL's AC series. I'm looking at speakers pushing 500w program.

Again, speaker choice will depend on placement options.  This gets back to the question of ceiling height.

Well in that part of the sanctuary the ceiling is about 12 feet high. We have steps that lead to the pulpit/choir area which will go up 3 feet, and another 1 foot step into the choir area.
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John Rosborough

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2011, 03:25:23 am »

Here's a picture of the inside of the sanctuary:
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Minister John

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Re: Seeking sound advice (no pun) for my church install
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2011, 03:25:23 am »


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