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[Tim McCulloch]

Wondering if the OP has any income stream from this audio "business", or if they're simply subsidising shows by providing free kit/labour?

It wouldn't be the first time...

When I do free or significantly reduced fee work it's been because the work is new to me - I did a video switching gig for a small NFP fundraiser, something I'd never done before - and because I'm not sure my work is worth a "real" fee.  Once I'm sure of the value I can add, I charge appropriately for that value.

I suspect Tsun is working along those lines, and subsidizing his own work is part of paying the tuition at Ye Olde Skool of Harde Knockz.  The trick is knowing when one is moving from tuition to client subsidy.

[Brian Jojade]

I'm not sure my work is worth a "real" fee.  Once I'm sure of the value I can add, I charge appropriately for that value.

People leave a TON of money on the table because of this mentality.

At the pace that technology advances, if you only got paid once you had enough experience, you'd never get paid!!

It's the value of the service to the client that matters.  Some clients don't put any value on production. You'll never make a dime on them.  Others are happy that you know how to work an electrical outlet and pay a fortune for the simplest things, even if you've never done it before.

Some of my best paying jobs have been doing things I've never done before, and I priced the service high enough I though the client would say no.

Subsidizing production businesses with other income is VERY common in this industry and it makes it much harder on the business in general.  Having to compete with someone that doesn't need to turn a profit is way harder than fair competition.

[Tim McCulloch]

People leave a TON of money on the table because of this mentality.

At the pace that technology advances, if you only got paid once you had enough experience, you'd never get paid!!

It's the value of the service to the client that matters.  Some clients don't put any value on production. You'll never make a dime on them.  Others are happy that you know how to work an electrical outlet and pay a fortune for the simplest things, even if you've never done it before.

Some of my best paying jobs have been doing things I've never done before, and I priced the service high enough I though the client would say no.

Subsidizing production businesses with other income is VERY common in this industry and it makes it much harder on the business in general.  Having to compete with someone that doesn't need to turn a profit is way harder than fair competition.

Indeed.  And I *do* charge well for the services I provide.  I can defend my fees in the marketplace without exceptions and "what ifs". In fact I think I've raised my day rates to the point that I'm not getting as many phone calls as I once did, but I'm making more so I must be at the right price.

I think it's important, Brian, to separate out my personal "tuition" for things I don't know, vs bidding on work for the company.  I can factor in the price of people who know far more than myself, make a profit for the company and exceed client expectations.  And you can bet that in that scenario, whatever job I do will be a full-priced position on the call sheet.

Mostly the folks that continuously give stuff away that should be charged for are at the entry or exit points of their careers.  I'm reaching the latter but see no virtue in free work.  In fact, folks seem to offer me more and I'm not impolite enough to refuse their money.

[Bob Stone]

Indeed.  And I *do* charge well for the services I provide.  I can defend my fees in the marketplace without exceptions and "what ifs". In fact I think I've raised my day rates to the point that I'm not getting as many phone calls as I once did, but I'm making more so I must be at the right price.

I think it's important, Brian, to separate out my personal "tuition" for things I don't know, vs bidding on work for the company.  I can factor in the price of people who know far more than myself, make a profit for the company and exceed client expectations.  And you can bet that in that scenario, whatever job I do will be a full-priced position on the call sheet.

Mostly the folks that continuously give stuff away that should be charged for are at the entry or exit points of their careers.  I'm reaching the latter but see no virtue in free work.  In fact, folks seem to offer me more and I'm not impolite enough to refuse their money.

Some people also do it for the fun of it, aka a hobby...getting out, use some cool toys, see a show that you can partake in, etc. and honestly there's nothing wrong with that. There is the place in the market for the high end top dollar production folks and a place for the few bucks in the pocket to pay for beers when it's not your primary source of income.

[Scott Holtzman]

Some people also do it for the fun of it, aka a hobby...getting out, use some cool toys, see a show that you can partake in, etc. and honestly there's nothing wrong with that. There is the place in the market for the high end top dollar production folks and a place for the few bucks in the pocket to pay for beers when it's not your primary source of income.

By doing that you are taking that call away from people that need the money.  Even if it is a club call.  Lot of kids out there need those $300 hits, two or three of them a week and they are making a living in the business.


If you are rolling for less than 3 or 4 hundred I don't even know what to say.  You are subsidizing the band, beating up yourself and your gear, probably not carrying insurance so what happens when someone gets hurt and God forbid can't perform their day job?


I have a stagehand that fell off a riser on a Van Halen local call.  Turned out he didn't have workmans comp in that state.  My hand is wondering who is going to pay for his rehab?

[Brian Jojade]

Some people also do it for the fun of it, aka a hobby...getting out, use some cool toys, see a show that you can partake in, etc. and honestly there's nothing wrong with that. There is the place in the market for the high end top dollar production folks and a place for the few bucks in the pocket to pay for beers when it's not your primary source of income.

The problem is that those that are doing it as a hobby are charging less than realistic rates. That creates a supply that artificially lowers the prices that those that want to make a living at this next to impossible.

There's one thing to be a part timer and not work enough to have it as a sole source of income, but each show looked at on its own should be profitable, safe and legal.

[Bob Stone]

By doing that you are taking that call away from people that need the money.  Even if it is a club call.  Lot of kids out there need those $300 hits, two or three of them a week and they are making a living in the business.

Welcome to a free market...if someone wants to get $300 which covers their basic costs for a fun night out playing with sound equipment, why should we look down on them? They're enjoying themselves and price does not automatically equate to level of service provided.

The problem is that those that are doing it as a hobby are charging less than realistic rates. That creates a supply that artificially lowers the prices that those that want to make a living at this next to impossible.

There's one thing to be a part timer and not work enough to have it as a sole source of income, but each show looked at on its own should be profitable, safe and legal.

Safe and legal yes, profitable? meh...that's on each individual. My day job pays me enough that if I want to bring my rig out for pennies because it'll be a fun show, damn right I'll do it if I darn well please. That's not to say I don't hire out at good market rates most of the time and have all the legal things in order, just means you can't set the rate I work for and if you lose the job because of it, that's not my problem. People spend wayyy more on some hobbies (fishing/boating, golf, travel, etc.) than I have in all my rig and if I want to treat providing sound as a hobby rather than a business sometimes and you lose the job because of it, that's again not my problem.



And for the record, my rig is perfectly lounge worthy...K12.2 + KS112 mains (and some SRX718's if I need more bottom end), 4 x K8.2 monitors and 2 x CP8's, Soundcraft UI24r, full mic pack with Shure SLXD wireless, and all the appropriate stands, cables, snakes, cases, etc. to make it work. I can and do bill out $2000/day or $200/day, just depends what the event is and how I'm feeling

[Scott Holtzman]

Welcome to a free market...if someone wants to get $300 which covers their basic costs for a fun night out playing with sound equipment, why should we look down on them? They're enjoying themselves and price does not automatically equate to level of service provided.

Safe and legal yes, profitable? meh...that's on each individual. My day job pays me enough that if I want to bring my rig out for pennies because it'll be a fun show, damn right I'll do it if I darn well please. That's not to say I don't hire out at good market rates most of the time and have all the legal things in order, just means you can't set the rate I work for and if you lose the job because of it, that's not my problem. People spend wayyy more on some hobbies (fishing/boating, golf, travel, etc.) than I have in all my rig and if I want to treat providing sound as a hobby rather than a business sometimes and you lose the job because of it, that's again not my problem.



And for the record, my rig is perfectly lounge worthy...K12.2 + KS112 mains (and some SRX718's if I need more bottom end), 4 x K8.2 monitors and 2 x CP8's, Soundcraft UI24r, full mic pack with Shure SLXD wireless, and all the appropriate stands, cables, snakes, cases, etc. to make it work. I can and do bill out $2000/day or $200/day, just depends what the event is and how I'm feeling

Y'all aren't falling me.  Yes you can go out and do those gigs at a loss.  You are subsidizing the production at that point.  My problem is you are taking the show away from someone that feeds their family with work.  You are also devaluing the work.  Once a band knows you will do a show for xx if you aren't available they get a quote and think they re being ripper off.


You talk about MI level gear, it is perfectly suited for lounges.  What if something breaks?  How many rigs do you own? Are you destroying a personal vehicle transporting the gear?  You didn't mention insurance, what if someone gets hurt?  What is the plan if you get sick?  The one person one rig business model is full or liability issues. 

[Bob Stone]

Y'all aren't falling me.  Yes you can go out and do those gigs at a loss.  You are subsidizing the production at that point.  My problem is you are taking the show away from someone that feeds their family with work.  You are also devaluing the work.  Once a band knows you will do a show for xx if you aren't available they get a quote and think they re being ripper off.


You talk about MI level gear, it is perfectly suited for lounges.  What if something breaks?  How many rigs do you own? Are you destroying a personal vehicle transporting the gear?  You didn't mention insurance, what if someone gets hurt?  What is the plan if you get sick?  The one person one rig business model is full or liability issues.

You are assuming that show would spend the money on hiring in a top dollar production company. Most of the events I do at the pennies rate is where there wouldn't otherwise be any production and I'm attending anyway. I honestly don't care if I take the show away from someone feeding their family, if they don't have a viable business model because other people are doing those gigs, then they don't have a viable business model period....there must be demand for that $ rate in that market to make a viable business.

If something breaks I swap out the gear, might lose a monitor mix or I might not have as much processing as I switch to a backup analog desk, but the show would go on. I also have a few contacts that I can borrow gear last minute from or have them fill in for me. Insurance is covered, liability policies are relatively cheap. In the end though, as mentioned above, I'm not doing critical shows for pennies, so if all else fails, the event goes on without a mic and some background music, but it's not the end of the world.

Also, there are PLENTY of one person one rig businesses out there that have survived for ages, there's nothing wrong with that, to talk down on those operators (many of whom are on this forum) isn't a very professional thing to do on your part if you keep deciding to try to occupy some moral high ground.

[Scott Holtzman]

You are assuming that show would spend the money on hiring in a top dollar production company. Most of the events I do at the pennies rate is where there wouldn't otherwise be any production and I'm attending anyway. I honestly don't care if I take the show away from someone feeding their family, if they don't have a viable business model because other people are doing those gigs, then they don't have a viable business model period....there must be demand for that $ rate in that market to make a viable business.

If something breaks I swap out the gear, might lose a monitor mix or I might not have as much processing as I switch to a backup analog desk, but the show would go on. I also have a few contacts that I can borrow gear last minute from or have them fill in for me. Insurance is covered, liability policies are relatively cheap. In the end though, as mentioned above, I'm not doing critical shows for pennies, so if all else fails, the event goes on without a mic and some background music, but it's not the end of the world.

Also, there are PLENTY of one person one rig businesses out there that have survived for ages, there's nothing wrong with that, to talk down on those operators (many of whom are on this forum) isn't a very professional thing to do on your part if you keep deciding to try to occupy some moral high ground.

You skipped over the insurance part.


Not occupying any moral high ground, personally I don't work in the lounge space.  We have a few clients that do play a couple of lounge dates a year and we do cover them as part of the relationship, we don't do them at a loss either. 


I was speaking up for the folks that do work in that space.  It sucks to have to compete against someone who doesn't care about profit and subsidizes their operation either with cash or equity. 

[ProSoundWeb Community]