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Author Topic: Video question.  (Read 727 times)

Al Rettich

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Video question.
« on: May 15, 2024, 01:49:03 PM »

Recently, I was asked to give audio support to a local community who showed a Star Wars movie on May 4. No issues with audio, but the Blu Ray player that was going through a ATEM switcher, wouldn't output video. Hook it directly up to the LEDD wall processor, no issues. Going through the ATEM didn't like it. They ended up playing it off a computer. I've always heard that the new media wouldn't play if there items downstream. So how does one get around this?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Video question.
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2024, 02:30:51 PM »

Recently, I was asked to give audio support to a local community who showed a Star Wars movie on May 4. No issues with audio, but the Blu Ray player that was going through a ATEM switcher, wouldn't output video. Hook it directly up to the LEDD wall processor, no issues. Going through the ATEM didn't like it. They ended up playing it off a computer. I've always heard that the new media wouldn't play if there items downstream. So how does one get around this?

Don't use HDMI outputs.  SDI, NDI, even analog component video

The Black Magic ATEM Mini have the "smart" guts on input #1 - so all the EDID has to pass through it (along with scaling and other resolution/color space info).  Moving the DVD playback to another input may fix the issue or it may not.  But the issue is EDID/copy protection baked into the HDMI standard.
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Brian Jojade

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Re: Video question.
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2024, 02:46:34 PM »

You likely were running into the HDCP copy protection of the blu ray disc.  Essentially, to comply with the standards, the video signal has to go from the player to the TV with no splitting and no recording capabilities.

If you convert the signal into an analog signal, that would strip the digital copy protection out (albeit from a single generational quality loss that you probably wouldn't notice).

However, stripping copy protection brings in the whole discussion of legality of what you're doing.  In order to play Star Wars in a public setting (ie, anywhere except a private residence), permission is REQUIRED.

The real way to 'get around' this is to work with the copywrite owner and get a version that can be used for your purposes. 
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Brian Jojade

Jonathan Kok

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Re: Video question.
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2024, 03:59:36 PM »

Most Blu-Ray video will require all devices between the player and the display to be HDCP compliant (High Definition Copy Protection - ie- the downstream devices tell the upstream devices, 'Hi, I'm not a recording device, and I promise I'll block any of my output signals that I can't verify aren't recording devices'). Hollywood Movies? 1000%. ATEM switchers are NOT HDCP compliant. As such, the Blu-Ray player will BLOCK video output.

Same thing would happen if you were to try to play ANY HDCP content through an ATEM switcher off ANY device. I'm actually surprised that they were able to play it off a computer - was it a ripped disc, or did they download a ripped version and play that? The official Star Wars Blu-Ray should not have worked.  One thing I could think of is that it was a DVD. For a PC, whether HDCP is required on its output is dependent on what is being played. No HDCP? It'll go through the ATEM no problem. HDCP? Black screen.  For the Blu-Ray player, it may force HDCP full-time, irrelevant of content being played.  DVD's don't have HDCP, so it would play on the PC, but wouldn't on the Blu-Ray player.

How to get around this? Get an HDCP-compliant video switcher, and make sure your signal-chain from player to display is HDCP compliant.  Keep in mind that HDSDI CANNOT be HDCP compliant. However, some switchers (Roland, for example) have both HDMI and SDI outputs, with HDCP compliance available (and can be turned on/off). If you had used that, then the HDMI output would have had video (assuming all downstream devices are HDCP compliant), while the SDI output would not. This is because the Roland switcher can ask, and verify, if the connected HDMI devices are HDCP compliant. But it can't do that with the SDI devices. Since it doesn't know, it blocks output.

CATx based HDMI extenders are typically HDCP compliant.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 04:01:53 PM by Jonathan Kok »
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Erik Jerde

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Re: Video question.
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2024, 09:06:19 AM »

Recently, I was asked to give audio support to a local community who showed a Star Wars movie on May 4. No issues with audio, but the Blu Ray player that was going through a ATEM switcher, wouldn't output video. Hook it directly up to the LEDD wall processor, no issues. Going through the ATEM didn't like it. They ended up playing it off a computer. I've always heard that the new media wouldn't play if there items downstream. So how does one get around this?

ATEM doesnít support HDCP.  Need a better switcher if youíre going to do this sort of thing.

Honestly, playing back from a blu-ray player is kinda hokey for a professional event.  Iíd rip the video and play it back from a proper media server.  Thatís much more reliable than a disc player.
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Al Rettich

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Re: Video question.
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2024, 01:59:42 PM »

This was truly their first attempt. Somewhere they got ahold of a video file, loaded it up into Media Master 6, which would play audio, but not video. Then they went back, got a blu ray player, came out of it via HDMI, into a BlackMagic HDMI to SDI converter going into the ATEM PRO. Same issue. No video, just audio. They took the file from MM6, onto a PC and it played fine.
ATEM doesnít support HDCP.  Need a better switcher if youíre going to do this sort of thing.

Honestly, playing back from a blu-ray player is kinda hokey for a professional event.  Iíd rip the video and play it back from a proper media server.  Thatís much more reliable than a disc player.
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Video question.
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2024, 08:13:22 AM »

Ö[G]ot a blu ray player, came out of it via HDMI, into a BlackMagic HDMI to SDI converter going into the ATEM PRO. Same issue. No video, just audio.
SDI is not HDCP-compliant, either, as it doesnít allow for the handshake to be consistently/constantly communicated.

Quote
They took the file from MM6, onto a PC and it played fine.
It seems like the player was outputting with HDCP all the time (as it should), but the content itself may not have required HDCP encryption, and thus it worked through the computer.
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Craig Hauber

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Re: Video question.
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2024, 01:07:43 AM »

Most Blu-Ray video will require all devices between the player and the display to be HDCP compliant (High Definition Copy Protection - ie- the downstream devices tell the upstream devices, 'Hi, I'm not a recording device, and I promise I'll block any of my output signals that I can't verify aren't recording devices'). Hollywood Movies? 1000%. ATEM switchers are NOT HDCP compliant. As such, the Blu-Ray player will BLOCK video output.

Same thing would happen if you were to try to play ANY HDCP content through an ATEM switcher off ANY device. I'm actually surprised that they were able to play it off a computer - was it a ripped disc, or did they download a ripped version and play that? The official Star Wars Blu-Ray should not have worked.  One thing I could think of is that it was a DVD. For a PC, whether HDCP is required on its output is dependent on what is being played. No HDCP? It'll go through the ATEM no problem. HDCP? Black screen.  For the Blu-Ray player, it may force HDCP full-time, irrelevant of content being played.  DVD's don't have HDCP, so it would play on the PC, but wouldn't on the Blu-Ray player.

How to get around this? Get an HDCP-compliant video switcher, and make sure your signal-chain from player to display is HDCP compliant.  Keep in mind that HDSDI CANNOT be HDCP compliant. However, some switchers (Roland, for example) have both HDMI and SDI outputs, with HDCP compliance available (and can be turned on/off). If you had used that, then the HDMI output would have had video (assuming all downstream devices are HDCP compliant), while the SDI output would not. This is because the Roland switcher can ask, and verify, if the connected HDMI devices are HDCP compliant. But it can't do that with the SDI devices. Since it doesn't know, it blocks output.

CATx based HDMI extenders are typically HDCP compliant.
If I absolutely must then I run the disc player directly to the projector/wall/whatever and use it to switch between the sources.  I'll run the output of my ATEM into one input then the disc player to a second and using a remote extender/cable/rs-232 switch between the 2 for HDCP disc playback.  Fade to black, hard switch then start disc.  helps if you have your projector set to no logo and black for no signal moments.  Yes it isn't flawless, but as others here have said if you insist on a disc then that's what you get.
Lately I've been exploring Crestron DM matrix switching for larger distributed events.  It seems to do a good job handling handshake and HDCP while allowing distribution to multiple different type displays simultaneously.  Even still the disc player isn't going thru the Atem or Roland.

As far as "permission"? -It's Star Wars and that's now Disney so the answer is just "no" so don't waste your time.  (Nevermind that it's been out now for 47 years and everyone has seen it by now anyways -lol)
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Craig Hauber
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Re: Video question.
¬ę Reply #7 on: May 20, 2024, 01:07:43 AM ¬Ľ


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