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Author Topic: L  (Read 2568 times)

Matt Jordan

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L
« on: May 20, 2023, 01:09:56 AM »


l
« Last Edit: February 21, 2024, 05:08:50 PM by Matt Jordan »
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Matt Jordan
     Maxxsounds Audio co. Boise, ID
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Give the people what they want, they will give you what you want.

Art Welter

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Re: Lab 12 in a JTR Growler
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2023, 02:45:12 PM »

Refurbing a club install, and found a blown driver in one of 8 JTR growlers on sub duty there. First smoked driver in nine years. The staff over at JTR tells me there are no direct replacement drivers any more and suggested a lab 12 as a drop in. Has anyone tried this? Thanks, ~Matt
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,124749.0.html
Jeff Permanian wrote the 2010 Growler handles "126.5 volt (2000w at 8ohm), logarithmic, sine wave sweep with 3db of compression."

A LAB 12 may "drop in", but has about half the power rating of the original Growler driver, and half the excursion and -6dB power handling of the later driver.
If the amps are actually delivering 126.5 volts, the LAB 12 would probably be toasted, they have around 3dB of thermal compression at around 50 volts.

Have you cut the driver open and determined that the voice coil actually smoked? Could be broken tinsel leads or a bad crimp connection.
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Matt Jordan

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Re: Lab 12 in a JTR Growler
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2023, 04:09:30 PM »

Nope, I have never done speaker surgery.

Have you cut the driver open and determined that the voice coil actually smoked? Could be broken tinsel leads or a bad crimp connection.

[/quote]
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,124749.0.html
Jeff Permanian wrote the 2010 Growler handles "126.5 volt (2000w at 8ohm), logarithmic, sine wave sweep with 3db of compression."

A LAB 12 may "drop in", but has about half the power rating of the original Growler driver, and half the excursion and -6dB power handling of the later driver.
If the amps are actually delivering 126.5 volts, the LAB 12 would probably be toasted, they have around 3dB of thermal compression at around 50 volts.

Have you cut the driver open and determined that the voice coil actually smoked? Could be broken tinsel leads or a bad crimp connection.
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Matt Jordan
     Maxxsounds Audio co. Boise, ID
       www.maxxsoundsaudio.com





Give the people what they want, they will give you what you want.

Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Lab 12 in a JTR Growler
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2023, 09:01:46 AM »

I think I'd try to find the biggest, meanest 12" sub driver I could. Faital Pro do a couple that might be worth a look. IIRC, Celestion have just released one as well.


Chris
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Lab 12 in a JTR Growler
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2023, 12:20:27 PM »

I think I'd try to find the biggest, meanest 12" sub driver I could. Faital Pro do a couple that might be worth a look. IIRC, Celestion have just released one as well.


Chris
That could be a big mistake.

Horns can be VERY picky about which drivers are used in them.  The design is around the driver and cabinet together.

Very often a "better" driver may give less performance, because it is not suited for the particular horn in question.

Often a "wimpier" driver will give better overall results.

I remember years ago trying to substitute a top of the line JBL driver in place of a stamped frame square magnet Eminance in a folded horn.

The much cheaper eminance walked all over the JBL.

But in a front loaded cabinet the results would be totally different.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Lab 12 in a JTR Growler
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2023, 01:55:47 AM »

Ivan,

Given that we're talking about drivers that'll handle 2KW@8ohm, I think we're outside the realm of using wimpy drivers.


I can imagine a couple of examples where a cheap driver might outperform a more expensive one, but those are relatively obscure cabinet designs operating without EQ. All of the modern cabinet designs do benefit from higher-end drivers. Otherwise, I'd expect to find the occasional square magnet in a Danley design  ;)

Chris
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Lab 12 in a JTR Growler
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2023, 08:28:45 AM »

Ivan,

Given that we're talking about drivers that'll handle 2KW@8ohm, I think we're outside the realm of using wimpy drivers.


I can imagine a couple of examples where a cheap driver might outperform a more expensive one, but those are relatively obscure cabinet designs operating without EQ. All of the modern cabinet designs do benefit from higher-end drivers. Otherwise, I'd expect to find the occasional square magnet in a Danley design  ;)

Chris
When I say "wimpier" I just meant "Less powerful"-at least in terms of wattage capability.  It could just be a half power (-3dB) model that could outperform a "stouter" model.

I won't say model numbers, but in one of the Danley designs, Tom originally wanted to use a "less powerful" driver because the model said it would work better, and cost less.

When the prototype cabinet was built, we tried the original "wimpier" driver and a more stout driver (that is used in other models).

The model was correct, the "wimpier" driver did indeed outperform the "better" driver.

However we went with the "better" driver for a number of reasons, none of which had anything to do with actual performance, and more to do with availability, lead times etc.

I'm just saying that in horns, "better" is not always better.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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John Halliburton

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Re: Lab 12 in a JTR Growler
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2023, 10:07:52 AM »

I think I'd try to find the biggest, meanest 12" sub driver I could. Faital Pro do a couple that might be worth a look. IIRC, Celestion have just released one as well.


Chris

Having known Jeff since our days at Sound Physics Labs, and helping him in the early days, and owning some Growlers(built some too), I'd say if Jeff can't replace or recone the original, some of the really beefy autosound drivers are probably the way to go.  As Ivan said, horns tend to be more "selective" of the driver match up, so it may be a trial and error situation for sure.

Best regards,

John
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Re: Lab 12 in a JTR Growler
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2023, 10:07:52 AM »


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