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Author Topic: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please  (Read 1600 times)

frank kayser

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Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2019, 06:45:40 pm »

First in all of the pro audio forums it's the same , 100+ views and VERY little help , C'mon if you can help a bit by shedding some light for someone please don't pass us by . Now my ? I know most of the 600mhz is gonna be prohibited in 2020. OK , my ? is what do you do with the units that you have on that band? are they paperweights ? What happens if we just continue to use them ? Will the imperial storm troopers come and haul us away with our IEM's hanging from our ears ? I have heard that if you live in bigger cities interference may be much more that in smaller cities .Also it seems that there is a SMALL portion of the 600mhz that will remain open , what if your device can use those Freq. ? Will that work ? . Please , If you know anything on this subject , share the knowledge ,,Thanks


Unfortunately, there is very little help to be had with that equipment.  Neither you nor I was asked if it would be OK to sell off those frequencies.  However, as unlicensed transmitter operators, we were much like squatters there - using it as long as "no one owned it".  The new owner wants to make money with his bright, shiny new purchase.  Yeah, anyone with equipment in the 600mhz band is taking a financial bath.  I have a friend with around 8 channels with al the supporting equipment, and the manufacturer is basically offering $75/channel towards new equipment. That's about $600 for over $8K of perfectly good radio equipment that he would normally have to replace.  No crystal ball when he purchased; just a bad guess.


Rilely Casey has all the correct answers in the first response post. 


Following the rule of law is always optional.  Speed, and hope there's no RADAR, or someone watching. Hope you don't get into an at-fault accident where speed was a factor.  Fine as long as someone don't come a-knockin'.


Insider trading makes few folks lots of money, and no one knows, until they do.  Then they pay.


Continue to use the frequencies will not bring storm troopers.  Lawyers.  And hope to God you did not interrupt some emergency communication where someone's life is in danger, or..., or...  Seems like a victimless crime, or something a mega-corp can suck up.  It's not. 


We are a country of laws, and laws are what keep us safe, profitable, food in our bellies, and roof over our heads.  Sometimes following the laws cause pain, trouble, incarceration, or just loss of money.  Unfortunately, we have to suck it up. 


Breaking laws has consequences not only to you, but to others.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2019, 08:49:52 pm »

If you search the wireless forum you will find a link to a map of the US and turn up dates for the 600Mhz cellular license.  My market (Cleveland OH) just started coming up and it is already busy and essentially unusable. 

Do you really want to be doing a wedding gig and in the middle of the groom's drunkalog the mic cuts out?

The reason you are getting a combination of BS and snark (and a few tidbits of wisdom) is the following:

1 - This forum especially has very high expectations of users, that certainly includes and intelligent subject, you failed out of the gate on that one.

2 - If you hang out in the wireless forum you will see some of the top RF engineers in the country on the highest earining arena tours actually take the time to answer questions.  To be able to tap that resource, to me, is frankly humbling.  It's the same in the audio forum but the RF forum in here is truly a special place.

3 - Your question was not one seeking knowledge.  You outright asked for emotional validation if you can get away with breaking the law. 

4 - The way you are approaching this makes my guess you are probably a musician in the band or a sound guy for a cover band or other type of local production that plays in bars and other makeshift venues.

RF is one area you just can't cheap out with and get any results.

Your quoting Scott makes it look like you are taking him to task.  Was that your intention?
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2019, 09:11:08 pm »

Danny, it's a case so sad, too bad.

For all intents and purposes the unlicensed use of the 600mHz band is no longer permitted (except for a couple of *very minor* exceptions).

Congress directed the FCC to free up under-utilized spectrum assignments and commercialize those to the benefit of the US treasury.  That's what started the whole digital TV thing, the reassignment of TV station channels, and the auction of the 700mHz band about 10 years ago.  That wasn't enough and the RF carriers and content producers/providers want more Orange Is the New Black in your pocket size device.  More shopping.  More up-streaming of content, too, as they can harvest useful info about you to sell to advertisers and less wholesome folk... but I digress.

Riley summed it up pretty well.  There are 2 possibilities, maybe 3.  First, you continue to operate and as more mobile devices use the 600mHz band the less reliable your mics will be; second, your wireless mics/IEM systems cause interference to a licensed service (like mobile) and TMobile or whomever is able to pinpoint you.  This will result in a NastyGramģ from a corporate attorney.  Do it to them a couple more times and you could hear from the FCC.  The result of that could involve 5-figure fines *per offense* and confiscation of offending equipment.  Or third, you could continue to operate for an indefinite period of time without consequence until #1 or #2 happens.

So that's the why and what, Danny.  Sorry but you own some paperweights unless you put them on ebay and sell them internationally.  It's probably less hassle to put them in the E-waste recycle bin.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Russell Ault

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Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2019, 02:54:20 am »

How many times are you in an environment where other wireless mics and IEM systems are competing with you for the same bandwidth?

Years ago I was working a big convention at a large hotel at Disney World. I discovered that some how 2 wireless systems were tuned to the exact same frequencies. I don't remember how I found this out because they weren't interfering with each other because they were far enough apart in that facility.

Honestly, every December.

I did a Christmas party last year in a hotel that was hosting probably six or eight other parties. The group I was working for had no RF issues, but a band playing one of the other parties had tuned one of their mics to the same frequency as the hotel-provided lectern mic for our room. It was a set-and-forget by the hotel's in-house A/V, and the lectern mic's switch was set to turn the thing on and off (not just AF mute), so needless to say as soon as the announcements were finished the mic was switched off and the receiver captured onto the mic in the other room.

Digital wireless with its in-built error detection tends to fail to silent, and so is a little more forgiving in these sorts of environments (especially if you're using better gear than most of the other people in the building), but FM is FM is FM, companding be damned. I'd be very wary of relying solely on the capture effect to make sure my group's IEMs are picking up the signals they're supposed to be.

-Russ
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Kevin McDonough

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Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2019, 05:39:13 am »

hey

just as a help to the OP and to posters in general, the UK is probably a good idea to look at in terms of international markets you may sell to.

We've also had our own similar problems with the government selling off frequency spectrum, but in our case it was 700MHz they sold off and we are still able to use 600MHz.

In particular, if its a fairly wide ranging tuning set you have, that reaches from the high 500MHz into the 600MHz band, that'll be even more attractive to us. We have a special band at our channel 38 (606-614) called our shared licence spectrum. This is much cheaper for us to use as we can just pay a single yearly fee for unlimited use, we don't have to buy it on a per use case as we do with higher up in the 600MHz range.

(I believe from memory you don't actually use those frequencies, your spectrum allocation uses that as a buffer zone between adjacent users? But if your equipment tunes wide enough that it tunes through that range anyway, we can make use of it).

Plus, in addition to the fact we use 600MHz, we also obviously speak English which makes communication easy, and our shipping is pretty reliable, most of the same operators you have (UPS, FedEx etc) all happily deliver over here too.

k
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2019, 07:37:38 am »

Probably worth noting that documenting your intent to use illegal gear on the internet probably wonít help your lawyer when their lawyer shows up... 

If replacing 600 MHz gear isnít financially an option, it may be time to have a hard look at those business finances... are you charging enough for your services?  Are you setting aside funds for asset replacement? 


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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2019, 10:09:17 am »

Honestly, every December.

I did a Christmas party last year in a hotel that was hosting probably six or eight other parties. The group I was working for had no RF issues, but a band playing one of the other parties had tuned one of their mics to the same frequency as the hotel-provided lectern mic for our room. It was a set-and-forget by the hotel's in-house A/V, and the lectern mic's switch was set to turn the thing on and off (not just AF mute), so needless to say as soon as the announcements were finished the mic was switched off and the receiver captured onto the mic in the other room.

Digital wireless with its in-built error detection tends to fail to silent, and so is a little more forgiving in these sorts of environments (especially if you're using better gear than most of the other people in the building), but FM is FM is FM, companding be damned. I'd be very wary of relying solely on the capture effect to make sure my group's IEMs are picking up the signals they're supposed to be.

-Russ

Thank you for enlightening me. I canít believe that I forgot about what normal people have to deal with. I donít consider myself special, just abnormal.  :o

Most of the time when I have been using wireless systems we are usually the only ones in the venue, we have taken over the whole place. There were times when doing corporate work that there may have been a bunch of breakout rooms but there were all ours. So we had control of the frequency coordination, but the time I mentioned with 2 systems on the same frequency they were so far apart in the venue it wasnít a problem. Iím not doing those type of events anymore (I stopped doing them when we still had 700MHz) but if I was I might have to take into account how to overlap the tuning with taking into account the locations in the venue to fit enough channels in.

I need to find out how the changes (loss of 600MHz and the repack) are going to affect a church I am working with now on some up upgrades. In a recent install the wireless manufacturer had given the sound company a frequency coordination for the location that took into account the repack but it looked like it didnít take into account what the present landscape was. I merged the 2 together and it all looked fine. But we will see what happens when it all switches over.
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Dave Garoutte

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Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2019, 01:07:22 pm »

I sold off all my B-channel Senny stuff as soon as I learned about the repack.
Ebay has an international reach.
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frank kayser

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Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2019, 09:36:28 pm »

Probably worth noting that documenting your intent to use illegal gear on the internet probably wonít help your lawyer when their lawyer shows up... 

If replacing 600 MHz gear isnít financially an option, it may be time to have a hard look at those business finances... are you charging enough for your services?  Are you setting aside funds for asset replacement


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Cailen,
In the real business world, no doubt you're absolutely on target


Speaking as a Lounger and for most intents and purposes, a hobbyist, my business model is admittedly broken, and those normal, proper business concerns, like asset replacement, are not (but should be) on my radar.  Having hardware "obsoleted" hurts, hurts hard, but we just have to suck it up, regardless of our (non)functioning business model.  As Dave said, sell when you smell trouble.   


I love the wiz-bang tech, the challenge of the show, and the folks who appreciate my work. My business model?  Not so broken that a four-year degree in business, minor in accounting, and 20 years of therapy couldn't fix.
frank
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Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
¬ę Reply #18 on: May 23, 2019, 09:36:28 pm ¬Ľ


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