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Author Topic: Summed Bass, Puzzling!  (Read 8611 times)

Canute J. Chiverton

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Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« on: April 05, 2014, 01:15:48 pm »

I am puzzled somewhat by a recent occurrence. I was doing a Karaoke Show last night. Equipment being used was all Sources connected to DJ Mixer .....whose main outputs went to Allen & Heath ZED 12FX Live Mixer...whose ouputs went to DBX 166 to DBX 1231 EQ to Bose Controller/Controller (Settings..two way with summed Bass) to Crown Amp for Bose 802s tops (Mids & Highs) & Crown amp for Single 18" Summed Bass.

Here is what puzzles me, Up to the point the Stereo Signals enters the Crossover, they are supposed to be separate so all controls Left and Right should work independently and thus change Signal Volume. When I use the Master Left and Right from the Allen & Heath to add Signal Output The Tops/Bose 802s Left and Right respond but only the Left side when pushed up or pulled down will affect the Summed Bass. Why is it then that when I push up  or pull down the right side of the A&H Outputs that the Bass is hardly affected, It is almost non existent. I would think that the Crossover gets Bass Frequencies before they are summed. Any explanation to this phenomenon? Hopefully I have explained in detail.

Second, The Bass amp is a Crown XTi 4000, should I send both L & R Signals to it from the Xover and set the amp to Sum them to one bridged side? Can the Amp do that?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 01:22:24 pm by Canute J. Chiverton »
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Canute J. Chiverton

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Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2014, 01:51:24 pm »

I am puzzled somewhat by a recent occurrence. I was doing a Karaoke Show last night. Equipment being used was all Sources connected to DJ Mixer .....whose main outputs went to Allen & Heath ZED 12FX Live Mixer...whose ouputs went to DBX 166 to DBX 1231 EQ to Bose Controller/Controller (Settings..two way with summed Bass) to Crown Amp for Bose 802s tops (Mids & Highs) & Crown amp for Single 18" Summed Bass.

BTW Here is the Rig In question:This is for Two way Applications or to be added to another Rack I have when I do Three way Configurations.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 01:57:11 pm by Canute J. Chiverton »
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Canute J. Chiverton

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Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2014, 12:37:03 pm »

Maybe the thread should be moved to the Live Sound Board since most DJs don't use Live Mixers and many of those who do Karaoke only use those Tiny Mic Mixers! Mods, is it possible to move the Thread to another appropriate Forum?
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2014, 09:46:59 pm »

The cynic in me reads "Bose Controller" and immediately thinks... well there's your problem, but then I look at the whole gear list and besides thinking that you have waaaaaaaaaaaaay to many pieces in the signal chain it becomes obvious that if you have one miswired interconnect that will put the signal out of polarity with the other channel and mono sources like bass will cancel instead of sum in the Bose controller.
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Canute J. Chiverton

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Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2014, 10:14:12 pm »

The cynic in me reads "Bose Controller" and immediately thinks... well there's your problem, but then I look at the whole gear list and besides thinking that you have waaaaaaaaaaaaay to many pieces in the signal chain it becomes obvious that if you have one miswired interconnect that will put the signal out of polarity with the other channel and mono sources like bass will cancel instead of sum in the Bose controller.
It works well when it is not summed and two subs, left and right are deployed. Those units are there because sometimes Small Bands use this Rig.Minus the DJ stuff on the Right Rack/Station
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2014, 10:39:09 pm »

It works well when it is not summed and two subs, left and right are deployed. Those units are there because sometimes Small Bands use this Rig.Minus the DJ stuff on the Right Rack/Station

So as I suggested above check each interconnect to make sure the hot and cold signal wires aren't switched inside a connector somewhere.
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Canute J. Chiverton

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Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2014, 11:10:12 pm »

So as I suggested above check each interconnect to make sure the hot and cold signal wires aren't switched inside a connector somewhere.
I will do that and report back, I just find it weird that it responds this way.  If I have it in stereo any right or left channel Fader in the Chain will affect the Level of bass from the corresponding side all the way to the Bass speaker.  I would think that by the very nature of the Controller/Xover getting a Stereo feed in that it will then sum both left and right Bass frequencies from thereon.  I will test what you advised and report back.

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Mac Kerr

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Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2014, 11:11:29 pm »

I will do that and report back, I just find it weird that it responds this way.  If I have it in stereo any right or left channel Fader in the Chain will affect the Level of bass from the corresponding side all the way to the Bass speaker.  I would think that by the very nature of the Controller/Xover getting a Stereo feed in that it will then sum both left and right Bass frequencies from thereon.  I will test what you advised and report back.

If turning down either the left or the right channel makes the bass increase, you have a cable with reversed polarity.

Mac
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Canute J. Chiverton

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Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2014, 12:56:20 am »

If turning down either the left or the right channel makes the bass increase, you have a cable with reversed polarity.

Mac
Mac, First thanks for moving the Thread. Again this is what happens.
Increasing the Volume (Master Faders) on the Live Mixer......left Channel going up = Increase in Volume in Left Tops and Summed Base.
Right Channel going up = Increase in volume in Right Tops only, not in Summed Bass.
If I turn down the Left Master Fader completely,  it will take all the Summed Bass with it! Only right tops will remain!
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Geoff Doane

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Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2014, 08:07:38 am »


Increasing the Volume (Master Faders) on the Live Mixer......left Channel going up = Increase in Volume in Left Tops and Summed Base.
Right Channel going up = Increase in volume in Right Tops only, not in Summed Bass.
If I turn down the Left Master Fader completely,  it will take all the Summed Bass with it! Only right tops will remain!

It seems obvious to me that your "summed bass" is really just the left channel bass.  I tried, without success, to find a flow diagram for the "Bose controller", but the only thing that showed up was some DSP device they now have.  I can't tell for sure, but it doesn't look like the silver thing above the Crown amps in your picture.

I would carefully go over your controller settings/patching to confirm that it is operating as intended.

GTD
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Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2014, 08:07:38 am »


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