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Author Topic: X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions  (Read 11881 times)

Aaron Talley

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X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions
« on: October 02, 2013, 12:03:18 PM »

Has anyone figured out any fixes for this. I see that there are lots of posts about it but no solutions.

We have been using x32 consoles for about 9 months with no issues with analog snakes.

We added the s16 stage racks for a tour. We are using shielded cat5e.
We had no problems during prep or 4 weeks of it being set up in the shop.
Got to the third show and it was really bad.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2013, 12:22:48 PM »

Has anyone figured out any fixes for this. I see that there are lots of posts about it but no solutions.

We have been using x32 consoles for about 9 months with no issues with analog snakes.

We added the s16 stage racks for a tour. We are using shielded cat5e.
We had no problems during prep or 4 weeks of it being set up in the shop.
Got to the third show and it was really bad.

I have an X32 and S16.  Never had a problem with popping noises, but the symptoms you describe are usually the result of 1 or more items losing work clock sync.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2013, 12:33:54 PM »

I would ask Behringer for advice.

I am not aware of a specific smoking gun but have seen suggestions that the inter-connect cable can be important and sensitive to handling (bending?).

It sounds odd that bending a wire could have much effect on electrical current flowing in the wire, but there is HF digital data with perhaps important time relationships.

Sorry about the vague advice, Behringer should be more specific and more helpful.

JR
 
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Mac Kerr

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Re: X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2013, 12:46:33 PM »

Has anyone figured out any fixes for this. I see that there are lots of posts about it but no solutions.

We have been using x32 consoles for about 9 months with no issues with analog snakes.

We added the s16 stage racks for a tour. We are using shielded cat5e.
We had no problems during prep or 4 weeks of it being set up in the shop.
Got to the third show and it was really bad.

As Tim mentioned, it sounds like a sync problem, but it could also be a cable problem. I didn't see any mention of shielded CAT5 in the manual, did Behringer recommend it? For most uses shielded and unshielded may be interchangeable, but not necessarily for all. I would try regular CAT5e, and check your existing cable for kinks or places where the twist may have come apart inside.

Mac
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 12:49:53 PM »

As Tim mentioned, it sounds like a sync problem, but it could also be a cable problem. I didn't see any mention of shielded CAT5 in the manual, did Behringer recommend it? For most uses shielded and unshielded may be interchangeable, but not necessarily for all. I would try regular CAT5e, and check your existing cable for kinks or places where the twist may have come apart inside.

Mac

Joe Sanborn from Behringer support mentioned it several times in the X32 thread over at soundforums.net and he also says that STP CAT5e is specified in the owner's manual.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Aaron Talley

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Re: X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2013, 01:00:40 PM »

We were using un-shielded cable and switched because of this post

Hi Guys,

Most of these types of problems are cable related.  As Jan indicates below you must use shielded CAT-5 cables.
While unshielded cables many work at one gig, they may not work properly at another show due to interference. It is the same general principle as balanced mic lines.


I wanted to share this information directly from Jan Duwe:

Jan DUWE
Assistant Manager, Conceptual Engineering
MUSIC Group Services EU GmbH

I'd like to take the opportunity to advise on some statements/postings which were made in the course of this discussion. First of all, Behringer did not and does not endorse the use of UTP (unshielded) CAT5 cable for two reasons. On one hand the international regulations, i.e. FCC and EN, are very strict about radiated electro-magnetic interference, and we can only ensure reasonable dB margins when even the tiniest contributions are controlled--here shielding actually makes a difference. And on the other hand, there may be common mode interference by extreme spikes from neighboring lighting cables for example, which we rather do not want to allow entering the console at all. Of course, the receiver's CMRR will prevent mis-interpretation, but it is definitely sage to prevent any sort of uncontrolled HF noise penetrating the console, if there are so simple means for achieving it. (Needless to say, when we are talking about shielded TP, the shield obviously needs to be reliably connected to ground on both sides)

Nevertheless, I think we are all in accord with a couple of crucial facts:
> For good reasons the X32 has got the best available CAT5 connectors using orginal NEUTRIK Ethercon.
> It has got one of the most robust networking interfaces, which is 100% Klark Teknik FPGA based SuperMac technology, the same as MIDAS.
> AES50's physical layer is 100 MBit Ethernet based, all proven and mature technology for many years.
> AES50 provides extremely solid clock propagation, superior to many other networking standards (which is why it was chosen by MKT in the first place).
> The X32 has successfully passed all the international certifications, which includes radiated and received electro-magnetic interference.
> The S16 and X32 (... and P16) are performing flawlessly, are set up with ease and have absolutely no inherent communication issues
> Considering roughly ~35k units (X32 and S16) out there, working in all sorts of venues, simple and insane applications, operated by skillsets from seasoned audio pro's to absolute beginners...
And what we are talking here about is less than a handfull of non-reproducible glitches...

People who have followed us during the market introduction of X32 and S16 know that we are considering customer concerns v e r y seriously, and I garantee we are doing our best to spot any room for improvement. In this case however, it seems there are outside factors, fairly unrelated to the products, that generally would deserve attention. There are many recommendations and best-practices, which apply to basically every digital sound reinforcement system, digital networking or mixing console in the audio world:
> use the same power lines for all audio equipment
> preferably use power line filters and/or a quality UPS with integrated filters
> prevent running audio and lighting or other high-current or switched-mode equipment from the same outlet etc.

These general precautions have helped improve the reliability in many applications throughout the industry, and using the S16 / X32 is no exception to these rules.

The people who had visited us at WNAMM13 in January, might have noticed how easily we had setup a system of 13 X32 consoles (including the first prototypes of the new models) with all sorts of Wifi routers attached and Protools PC feeding the multitracks. Everything was working 5 days in a row in an odd tradeshow environment, without the slightest glitches whatsoever. ;-)


I hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
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Mac Kerr

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Re: X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2013, 01:09:11 PM »

Joe Sanborn from Behringer support mentioned it several times in the X32 thread over at soundforums.net and he also says that STP CAT5e is specified in the owner's manual.

I just went through the manual and could not find that reference. The post about EMI interference is maybe misleading, as shielding does not reject the noise from power cables that they seem so worried about, twist does.

Shielding does change the electrical characteristics of the cable, which may or may not have an impact on performance.

If the current cable is not working, I'd try an alternative. Test with a short cable and see if the problem is still there. Test with UTP and see if the problem is still there. Test with another run of STP and see if the problem is still there. Test with solid core if you are using stranded.

Mac
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 01:11:35 PM by Mac Kerr »
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Scott Wagner

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Re: X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2013, 01:34:34 PM »

Keep in mind that even though the cable may pass a continuity test, that does NOT mean that it's "ok" to transmit network traffic.  It's possible that you have a bad cable.  I don't know of any inexpensive CATx certification testers that work.  The Fluke that I often use is around $6k.  Does anyone have any experience with less expensive certification equipment?
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Bob Leonard

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Re: X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2013, 02:19:54 PM »

There are many low cost TDRs on the market that work quite well. Purchasing cable made by reputable manufacturers, and more specifically made in the USA, will help to insure connectivity. Belden is my recommendation as their cable is tested for more than continuity, and I suspect other US manufacturers adhere to this practice as well.

I remember this issue cropping up, and for some reason it seemed to just go away. Just like Mac, I went through their manuals and found no mention of specific cable type. The post referenced above? Well it appears to be good sales speak to me, nothing more.

If I were the OP I would use the standards posted by Soundcraft when choosing my cable type. They don't appear to be having connectivity problems with their stage boxes.
 
Until Behringer publishes specifications similar to those published by Soundcraft below, it appears all bets with Behringer are off.



 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 02:23:49 PM by Bob Leonard »
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2013, 02:40:00 PM »

While that quote from company reps seems pretty authoritative and includes good general advice, their ultimate characterization of this as a handful of non-reproducable glitches means either they do not know what is going on, or know and choose to live with it because it is impractical to change.

You should follow their advice and if your glitches actually are re-producable, you need to change something, or expect the same result.

Good luck.

JR
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Re: X32 with S16 cracking and popping solutions
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2013, 02:40:00 PM »


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