Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Michael Hedden Jr.]

TrevorMilburn wrote on Tue, 19 February 2008 09:52

Mike, just interested - because of the removal of the passive 'crossover'(sic) and the DSP'ed signal being used on the active SH50 (or any other Danley speaker) how different is the sound between the  powered & unpowered versions? I can understand how DSP tweaking could produce small, noticeable differences between two such speakers, but I would have thought that if the difference was really marked then then Danley would have been pushing only the powered version. I have read posts from Tom both here and elsewhere about the design of the 'crossover' network in his designs and it seemed at the time to offer a viable,passive, alternative to a fully active system - has this changed? Regards, Trevor

Trevor,
No it hasn't changed.  We simply had an issue with a network that has been resolved.
If it was all about what is in my best interest I would indeed only sell the self powered versions, shoot if it where all about our interest we'd hop on the line array band wagon as it results in tons more cabinets being sold.  I happen to know that there are thousands of folks out there that already have power amplifiers and I don't think it is good stewardship to force you to buy mine.  I also know that in many installations it isn't the most cost effective solution to force the self powered box.  We have chosen to give you a choice and whichever version you chose will perform stunningly.

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.

[Tom Danley]

Hi Mitch, Trevor

“OR....as in my case, you could just have almost any male singer sing through the P.A. and there would be plenty of immediately noticeable distortion. Not so difficult to reproduce really.”

Yeah, it would have been way way easier to find the problem if all they all had a problem.   It wasn’t until Ivan was able to make one of the new boxes do it that it could be reproduced “on the bench” for troubleshooting.  My boxes (older ones) wouldn’t do it.

As Murphy’s law would dictate, the “last” change I made to the crossover (the revision which caused this to be an issue) was one which had a small favorable impact in the response / phase and electrical power handling was added (and I remember thinking, “this is small it won’t be an issue”) near the end of the revision process.  

I have to say to our four ( I believe four customers had this problem) customers that had units that acted up, I am sorry to have let you down.  Our goal is to produce the best sounding speakers you can buy at any price, at a good price, obviously anyone having a problem is especially undesirable.
Anyway, again I am sorry there was a problem with this, for me it serves as a reminder about making “small changes” to a previously stable system.

Hi Trevor
These are a little different than normal speakers and there isn’t a range of choices in alignment.    By that I mean that in a normal speaker the highs mids and lows are too far apart to add coherently, so when two (separated) sources are out of phase, the sound still radiates somewhere, one just produces an interference pattern.   This is partly how one can use a range of filter types with a normal speaker.
Inside the Synergy horn, all the sources are less than a quarter wavelength apart and add coherently so if two of these sources are out of phase, the produce a HUGE cancellation notch and the little sound comes out.
This coherent addition means that one has to deal with each ranges acoustic phase and amplitude and this leaves a small range of options and none of them involve normal (like Mrs Butterworth’s syrup filters, Linkwitz Riley etc) filter approaches.  Bessel’s with EQ and delay can work well

The bottom line is that with conventional DSP filters, one follows a similar transfer function as the passive unit with the advantages that one isn’t concerned with the load impedance curve (a major hassle in designing passive filters) and one has time delay much “EQ” available,  each point of which costs 2 or 3 parts in a passive version and time delay only possible by moving the drivers..

Best,
Tom Danley

present at a cow tipping event once in the way old days.

[John Chiara]

Tom Danley wrote on Tue, 19 February 2008 10:45

Hi Mitch, Trevor “OR....as in my case, you could just have almost any male singer sing through the P.A. and there would be plenty of immediately noticeable distortion. Not so difficult to reproduce really.” Yeah, it would have been way way easier to find the problem if all they all had a problem.   It wasn’t until Ivan was able to make one of the new boxes do it that it could be reproduced “on the bench” for troubleshooting.  My boxes (older ones) wouldn’t do it. Best, Tom Danley present at a cow tipping event once in the way old days.

This has me curious. My first boxes..6 of them..all had the problem..I replaced all 6 crossovers and all 6 of them had the same problem..than I got 6 new boxes and they all had the same problem. I must have been on the wrong end of the list or something. As Mitch said, the problem was apparent with any male vocalist of any volume or body.

John

[John Chiara]

[quote title=Michael Hedden Jr. wrote on Tue, 19 February 2008 08:55]

TrevorMilburn wrote on Tue, 19 February 2008 09:52

.  We have chosen to give you a choice and whichever version you chose will perform stunningly. Mike Hedden Danley Sound Labs, Inc.

????...a curious post in this thread. I hope it is true..now.

[John Roberts {JR}]

[quote title=John Chiara wrote on Tue, 19 February 2008 12:58]

Michael Hedden Jr. wrote on Tue, 19 February 2008 08:55

TrevorMilburn wrote on Tue, 19 February 2008 09:52 .  We have chosen to give you a choice and whichever version you chose will perform stunningly. Mike Hedden Danley Sound Labs, Inc. ????...a curious post in this thread. I hope it is true..now.

If TD was not on site where the boxes were being built I could imagine some lag in catching this problem, as units in his lab were clean.

I have been bit before by a vendor problem where the engineering samples we approved were all wonderful.. even if not an overt bait and switch, it was unpleasant to unwind with production lines humming along and product in customers hands.  

I hope the early adopters of Tom's work aren't punished for their support, as Danley joins the long list of companies who experienced product glitches.

Stuff happens..

JR

[Tom Danley]

Hi John

The issue was the revision in the crossover and some drivers being enough different for it to be an issue.  That is why many units didn’t show at all, some after use.
If it had been universal with “any male vocalist of any volume or body” it would have shown up in more than four applications.  
In your case, being the first incidence for this problem to show up, it was against a backdrop of many units working happily.
The boxes I had for example had an earlier generation crossover, before the revision was made.  
As you’ll recall I was pretty sure it was going to be a signal level problem as every past time there was a distortion issue, that is what it turned out to be garbage in = garbage out.  
With your recording background that seemed less like a possibility and was why Tom Young came out to see and yes there really was a problem.
I wish we had been able to identify and resolve the problem faster or that I could have left out the revision that inadvertently caused it in the first place but i didn't.
Yes, the issue is fixed.
Best,

Tom

[Dan Kok]

Michael Hedden Jr. wrote on Sat, 16 February 2008 10:55

We do have new models coming soon [...] the first being the SH46. Thanks, Mike Hedden Danley Sound Labs, Inc.

Mike,

Any chance the SH46 form factor will allow easier portable use, I.E. be nicely stackable on top of some TH-115s at perhaps 22.5 inches wide?  The SH50s are quite wide compared to the average trap cabinet.

Thanks,

--
Dan

[Ivan Beaver]

It is 22.25" wide.  Still being worked on, but should be available before to long-actually two different versions of the same basic cabinet (hopefully ), for different output usages.

[Pascal Pincosy]

Ivan Beaver wrote on Tue, 19 February 2008 14:22

It is 22.25" wide.  Still being worked on, but should be available before to long-actually two different versions of the same basic cabinet (hopefully ), for different output usages.

Is there ever going to be a turnkey rigging solution for the SH-50 and the SH-25? Or are you guys just going to keep coming out with new speakers without finishing the old ones?

[John Chiara]

Pascal Pincosy wrote on Tue, 19 February 2008 17:59

Ivan Beaver wrote on Tue, 19 February 2008 14:22 It is 22.25" wide.  Still being worked on, but should be available before to long-actually two different versions of the same basic cabinet (hopefully ), for different output usages. Is there ever going to be a turnkey rigging solution for the SH-50 and the SH-25? Or are you guys just going to keep coming out with new speakers without finishing the old ones?

Burn....

[ProSoundWeb Community]