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Title: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 15, 2007, 08:22:44 pm
Well, after a day of fun, the results are in!

Since the other thread was getting a bit long, I figured I would start a new one here.

First off, I'd like to thank everyone who came out to hear the subs, brought subs and Jim for letting us play in his shop all day.  Subwise, nothing blew up and everything went fairly smooth. Though, in true LAB spirit, something did blow up. The PL9.0 went up idling before the beginning. Luckily Jim had a spare, so the day could go on.

We started the day off by just lining all the subs up and making noise. We ran them in pairs and in singles. We also later on in the day separated them into 2 groups big(LAB12, TFL21, TH115, LS1208, QW218) and small(mini, Growler, UCS1). Though some of the small guys were quite impressive.

index.php/fa/13020/0/

It was interesting hearing them all side by side. Each sub had their own certain characteristics that made them stand out.

We also took time in the beginning to measure them all. Each sub was measured in singles and then as a pair. Jeff Knorr has all the SMAART data, and hopefully he will be posting it soon.

Anyway, onto my reviews of them:

Lets remind you guys of what we judged them on:
-Sound Quality
-Size vs. output
-Overall output
-Overall Rating


First up, is the Growler:
I gave it 8's all around. One thing I noticed is that they have a lot of ass for their size, but not a lot of impact. They did well with dance music and sounded very "musical," but lacked impact from the kick hits. However, they do pack a good amount of output  for their size. When I had the dB meter out, they were doing ~118dB cont. with the PL9.0 blinking -10 every so often. We had to put a Yorkville TX4 on top of them to keep them from moving around too much. Everyone agrees that the plastic corners suck, and they can go without them. Out of the UCS1 and TH mini, they had the most "ass" to them. However, in singles, the output just disappears. I would NOT recommend running them 1 per side. They just lose a lot of the get up and go.

So, the Growlers get an "8" overall. I'd say they are pretty decent boxes for their size and cost.

Next up is the TH mini:
These guys were quite impressive! They are the size of a small trash can, but can keep up with the turbosound 21's! They had a VERY smooth sound, and put out a ton of sound for their size. They had a noticeable drop in the low reign, but it should be expected for their size. They kept right up with the Growlers in terms of output, but the growlers had a little more bottom end to them. I gave them a solid 10 on size to output ratio, as it was very impressive. They got a "7" overall, and would be great for band PA systems. I didnt get a chance to meter them with the dB meter, but I was pretty impressed over all.

Next up was the UCS1:
These guys are pretty solid subs. They are a little bigger then a Growler, and with that, they pack more punch. The Yorkville's had more in the 70-90hz range and I liked their sound. They didnt quite have the low low end that the Growlers did, but they were no slackers. They just hit harder. They were also able to do around 118dB cont, with the PL9.0 flicking -10. They are very good sounding subs, and I gave them an 8 on sound. But, only a 6 on size to output, as they still lack the overall get up and go. Overall I gave them a 6.5, as they are solid subs, but just lack in a few areas.

TH115:
You know, I was pretty disappointed with this one. For $2100, I was expecting more. Of course, there was only 1 there and it would have been nice to have a second... But for just one, I wasnt feeling it. But, with that said, they sound great. They went the lowest out of any single sub, and sounded the best by far. They have a very smooth sound, but lack in the midbass. DJ's would not like them. They got a 10 on Sound Quality, but I only gave them a 6 on output. When I measured the single sub, it was doing 112dB cont, with the PL9.0 flickering -10. Personally, I do not think they are worth the money. If you are looking for a very "musical" sounding sub that goes low, then it might be your ticket. But, one just wasnt as impressive as I thought it would be. I gave them a 7 overall.

Next up, The LS1208:
Yorkville screwed us over and only sent one, so we had to make due. But with that said, this was one of the more impressive subs of the bunch. For just a single unit, it packed a lot of punch and carried a lot of ass too. It had a little bit of a "woofy" sound to it, but I think with some EQ, that can be fixed. It had the most midbass out of any of the horn loaded subs. But, it completely blew me away. This is what I would consider the best bang for the buck sub of the bunch. I gave it a 7 on SQ, 8 on overall output and an 8 overall. For only $800, this was a very impressive sub. 2 UCS1's couldnt keep pace with it. I was getting ~120dB cont from just a single unit, with the PL9.0 flickering -10.

Next up, the QW218:
These guys did a pretty good job. They ran with the big boys pretty well, and had a surprising amount of get up and go. They blew the smaller subs away, but lost one on one with the larger subs. I was getting around 124dB cont. from the pair. I was pretty pleased with them, and for being a double 18, it was pretty cool. I gave them an 8 on Sound quality, 7 on output and an 8 overall.

Next up, The LAB12:
Hands down, the winner. Nothing could keep pace with them. They were topping out my dB meter(126dB) and making the room quake. They hit hard, go low and rattle your insides. They got a 9 on sound quality, 10 on output and 9 overall. If only they werent so friggen huge! These guys stole the show, as expected. If you go this route, make sure you have a big truck and lots of help moving them, as they are not small!

Finally, the Turbo 21:
Another sub that didnt impress me too much. Ive heard them before and think they do much better when you get about 6 or 8 of them. But a pair, well, it just wasnt anything to brag about. They sound good and have a smooth sound, but the TH mini's were able to get within a few dB of their performance. The 21's seemed to knock out the lower notes a little better, but in the 60hz+ range, it was a crapshoot. They got a 7 on SQ, 5 on output and 6.5 overall.

And that about sums it up! It was a fun day with lots of interesting results. I'll be posting pics soon, and I hope that as everyone gets home, they will be posting replies!




Evan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Owen Davis on December 15, 2007, 09:25:29 pm
Evan,
  Thanks for doing this and thanks for posting your results. I'm anxious to hear everyone else's impressions as well.

What about the Clair?

Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jeff Babcock on December 15, 2007, 09:55:08 pm
Wow!  That TH-Mini is TINY.... I knew it was small, but when you put it next to the others all at once it looks impossibly small to do what was reported.  Cool.  I have a feeling that these are going sell like hotcakes for Tom D.

LS1208 sounds good but is just such a beast, you're almost far enough size wise to just go up a notch to a Lab.

Too bad some of these were only in singles or pairs as some of the designs really benefit from going with a block of 4.  Although that would be rather impractical from a  shootout organization standpoint.

It's impressive that there are a number of such inexpensive subs out there now that can put out some quality LF, things have really come a long way in recent years!

Thanks Evan and others, wish I could've been there, sounds like a fun day.

Cheers
Jeff
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Phil LaDue on December 15, 2007, 09:57:58 pm
What's next...
Maybe a powered sub shootout?
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Steve Hurt on December 16, 2007, 12:06:24 am
Evan,

How far away was your meter when taking measurements?
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on December 16, 2007, 01:18:55 am
The meter was about 5-7 ft away... Evan can give you an exact distance.



My review is coming... I did majority of my listening about ~30-40ft away, I did listen to each sub at ~15ft.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Paul Magro on December 16, 2007, 01:53:09 am
  I'm not to clear on the sub pairing.  Some you say you had one, some you said pairs, and some you didn't say if it was a pair or a single?!  A little clearer on how many subs you were running when you made your observations would be good.  I also wonder how the output would change if you used the subs on their side vs. standing upright.  Without the exact output of the amp, "the PL9.0 blinking -10"  is a bit unscientifc.  I hope I don't sound like a downer!! Rolling Eyes
 Can't wait to see some measurements.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on December 16, 2007, 02:09:59 am
The TH115 and LS1208 are the only ones that didn't come with a significant other.  All the other subs had a mate.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on December 16, 2007, 03:32:11 am
Growler:  With all the talk about these, I was disappointed with them when compared to the UCS1s.  For dance style music the Growlers do hit hard, however for rock music I wasn’t impressed at all, most of the time it couldn’t reproduce the over-riding kick over the bas guitar.  I do have a couple complaints about the design: without having rubber feet on the bottom and/or side, how do you run these.  The plastic corners make these things look like DJ subs, I think we even broke one corner during the day moving them around.  We had to set a TX4 on top of the suns to keep them from moving around; with no weight on them, these walked around
Sound Quality: 7
Size vs output ratio: 8
Overall output: 7
Overall rating: 6


TH mini:  When firing these at 1 cluster there was nothing, it had output like a Yamaha club level, double them up and HOLY COW the came alive!  For their size, these things get loud. They don’t hit has low as the bigger ones but for a small show I would bring these, over the UCS1.  The mini’s had the biggest gain from single to double comparison.
Sound Quality: 9 (not for deep lows)
Size vs output ratio: 6 (singles), 10 (doubles)
Overall output: 9
Overall rating: 9


UCS1:  These had the fuller bass sound comparing to the Growlers and Minis.  They do hit hard for the semi-low stuff with the dance, they hit hard with the rock music and the sound was fuller with the Jazz music.  
Sound Quality: 9
Size vs output ratio: 9
Overall output: 9
Overall rating: 9


QW218:
Tough to say how these things are; 2 QW218s will get louder than 2 USC1, but 1 QW218 was about the same output as 2 UCS1s (playing the ohm to ohm rule).  My biggest complaint was the mobility factor, there isn’t a dolly board or tilt back wheels.
Sound Quality: 8
Size vs output ratio: 7
Overall output: 9
Overall rating: 8


TH115:  I wish there would have been a double so I could hear the difference in single vs double.  For a single box, they would work for smaller shows where two per side of the UCS1s would take up to much ground room.  I think the TH115 had slightly less out put than a pair of UCS1s, but would stomp a single UCS1.
Sound Quality: 9
Size vs output ratio: 10
Overall output: 8
Overall rating: 9


LS1208:  It’s a BIG CUBE and “now even lighter!”  It uses a Neo magnet now.  This sub did get loud, but once it got loud on the rock music it had a boomy bass sound, for the dance it does get low and you do know it.  Moving the LS1208 was the most stable tilt backs due to the dual handle set-up.  For my shows, these would not be practical due to the volume.  
Sound Quality: 8
Size vs output ratio: 7
Overall output: 8
Overall rating: 8


I am not rating these last two, because they are definitely in a league of their own for the ones above.

Turbosound 21”:
For having a biggest driver, they had the medium sized box; it was about the size of the TH115s.  I was impressed with the tightness of the biggest possible drive in a smallest possible box.  You could be bring these into a small bar and be fine with them and then turn around add 8 more and do a large festival.

LAB12:
Well we all know where these belong... outside for festivals or with dance/house music and rappers.  Yea one single was louder than the 2 QW218s, but add the second Lab12, the QW218 lost before the kick drum was even touched.  If you want stupid loud, these are the way to go.


I think if we had loaded the manufacture specs for each cab into the DSP it would have been a different story.  With the Growler you could find the missing part and add that with the EQ.  The Mini could of used a bump up in the lower part of the EQ and they would sound like they are hitting low. The LS1208 needs a good bit of EQ for rock shows to get them smooth, but for rap/hip-hop you would be fine.

Easiest to pack in the trailer would be the Mini’s.  4 of them are about the size of a UCS1.  The Growlers are small for much easier packs.  The USC1s have small footprint compared to the rest along with the QW218s.

Ground stacking:
QW218 would be the best when you ran them vertical with the 18 on-top of the other 18.  Next inline would be the LS1208.  And the UCS1 and TH115, they are about the same height.  As far as the Growlers and Mini’s, you would need a pole adapter or stand.  Two Growlers on their sides would give you the desired height to ground stack.  The UCS1 where the only sub  that had built in pole mounts.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 16, 2007, 04:16:23 am
1. What were the DSP settings, and why were they not changed for each sub.

2. What was the input power.

3. Was the amp run stereo or bridged mono.

4. Were all of the subs ever listened to at the same SPL or was it "This is what you get with this much power."

5. Will anyone be posting the street price of these boxes along with the model number AND manufacturers name for those who may be interested.

6. What was the test equipment used to measure the SPL, including the mike type.

7. What was the program material used to run the tests.

Thanks for running the tests!
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Mike Christy on December 16, 2007, 07:50:02 am
Aren't those minis CUTE!  Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results! The "system"
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 16, 2007, 07:52:53 am
Here is some info regarding the test/listening setup.

The subs were off of a PL9.0 one channel to drive subs.

The mains were off a Clair/Carver 2.0.  A yorkville TX4 was used most of the time for the full range-it was biamped.

Measurement mic (M30) was on the ground around 1M away-no exact distance as there was no reference in output voltage, just close enough so that the room did not become to big of a factor (which it did have some influence which will be seen).  Yes this is to close for "proper" measurement, and the physically larger cabinet will have an apparent advantage in level due to physical size and distance to the mic.

Jeff Knorr did the Smarrt measurements using Smaart 6, but is having an issue displaying the data, but it is saved and can be opened by others-except me-(got to figure that out) for know.

It was just a quick-let's put a decent voltage level without getting to obnoxious and do comparative measurements.  No compensation was attempted for different impedances, just a constant input voltage.

The listening was done starting in a group of 4 using a wireless switcher (I do not know if the outputs were shorted or no-I will check when I get back to the shop)  and various material was played.  Then by group decision (of those close by) one sub was taken out and replaced by another.  This went on throughout the day with different types of material being played at different times at different levels-kinda free form.

When all of the subs had been gone through, we started bringing back different subs to hear against other subs at will.

During measurement the subs (measured singly and pairs that were available) were by themselves and the others a good distance away (say 20 times the distance to the mic).

When listening- the unused subs were that same distance away.

It was very unscientific, but lots of fun to be able to hear some the subtle (and not so subtle) difference between these.

We did not get stupid loud and see what the subs sounded like when really pushed-which would reveal some interesting aspects, there was nobody really asking for that-but I know Evan would have like it Smile .

Except for the lack of restrooms (Hey the side of the building worked well for all of us-we ain't proud Laughing ), the facility and "catering"-complete with a subshootout cake with flaming sub and a "to scale" drawing of Evan was good.

I think the only thing that went on as scheduled was the day it was held Smile .

Thanks again for hosting this.

Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on December 16, 2007, 08:48:41 am
Maybe I missed it in the reading but I see a Clair ML18 in the picture but no reviews.? Did it fail or just not tested?

Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Peter Etheredge on December 16, 2007, 09:14:48 am
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sat, 15 December 2007 19:22

Well, after a day of fun, the results are in!

index.php/fa/13020/0/




Thanks for the reviews guys, I've been looking into upgrading my subs and all of these are right up my alley so this shall certainly help in deciding which set to go with.

One question though... what the hell is with the horn sitting on top of the SLS920?  Laughing
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: The Guy on December 16, 2007, 10:06:59 am
Evan thought the M200 wasn't sufficient, so he decided to add another 2" JBL vintage radial horn for more HF crispness! Laughing
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: The Guy on December 16, 2007, 10:26:26 am
Thanks again to all who came out.  Despite having a fever of about 102 for most of the day, I still managed to have a decent time.  I loved hearing all the different stuff, and look forward to getting to play with some of the Danley minis at some point out on a show.

Apologies for the non-hospitable nature of our Warehouse (lack of bathrooms, etc.)  I should've gotten a Porta-John for outside! Razz   Maybe for the next one we will have an actual bathroom installed.

I'll post more findings in a bit, so stay tuned.

-JB

Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Rob Spence on December 16, 2007, 10:56:50 am
Thanks for the reviews Matt and Evan.

One thing I find interesting (or humerous) is that you both liked the sound (more or less) of the biggest boxes there Smile

This seems to corrolate with common wisdom about needing lots of subs for lots of sound.

I wonder if a comparison of square feet of frontal area would result in similar sound feel? Perhaps take 2 of the LABs or 2 of the LS1208s for the square feet and match it with the other subs?
Hmmm, how many minis or Growlers to make up that frontal area? What would it do?

Anyway, thanks for doing this. I enjoyed the NYC shootout and understand how hard it is to get non-controversial results in a couple of days let alone one.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 16, 2007, 11:47:50 am
Douglas R. Allen wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 08:48

Maybe I missed it in the reading but I see a Clair ML18 in the picture but no reviews.? Did it fail or just not tested?

Douglas R. Allen


After listening to it in the "first round" no one really had an interest to keep it in the mix. They got set off to the side and not really used again throughout the day.

Bob Leonard wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 04:16

1. What were the DSP settings, and why were they not changed for each sub.

2. What was the input power.

3. Was the amp run stereo or bridged mono.

4. Were all of the subs ever listened to at the same SPL or was it "This is what you get with this much power."

5. Will anyone be posting the street price of these boxes along with the model number AND manufacturers name for those who may be interested.

6. What was the test equipment used to measure the SPL, including the mike type.

7. What was the program material used to run the tests.

Thanks for running the tests!



Bob-
1. DSP settings were pretty simple: HPF @ 90hz, LPF @ 20hz. No EQ, no limiting, just there for a crossover. As Ivan said, we didnt really care enough to fiddle around with the DSP. It was just for listening.

2. Input was an ipod into a Souncraft mixer into the DR480 into the PL9.0 into Ivan's switch into the subs. Very simple.

3. Stereo, just 1 channel

4. "This is what you get with this power."

5. Sure, Ill do it later today.

6. Rat Shack SPL meter at about 4' from the cabs. They used an earthworks mic to measure the cabs earlier in the day though.

7. Whatever we felt like playing. Everyone had ipods, so we played rock, techno, jazz, rap and country and more.


The whole shootout was setup to be just a fun time. Nothing too in depth, just a solid listening test.

index.php/fa/13024/0/

Everyone who came got to hear the subs and we got to have some fun. Thats all that matters. Smile




Evan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Scott Hibbard on December 16, 2007, 11:52:22 am
Evan,

Thanks for hosting and arranging the event as well as sharing your observations.  Having attended the NYC event in Jan. I think things might have been a little different had there been (2) TH-115's and (2) LS1208's.  The TH-115's were among the best at the NYC event (in my opinion) along with the TH-215. I'm sure you guys would have felt that way had there been 2 of the "loners" there.  Regardless I was happy to see the UCS1 and the mini performed well.  The LS1208 is indeed a large animal but as you experienced capable of some serious output (you should hear them in multiples of 4).  

P.S. Ivan...I wish the TH-Mini had a built-in pole mount.  

Glad you guys had fun,

ScottH
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Matthew Moser on December 16, 2007, 12:03:05 pm
good job evan, it was a fun day. I'll agree with you on the labs. During the smaart session they sounded comparable to a jumbo jet engine. As my first LAB event, I had a great time.
~Matt
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Rob Spence on December 16, 2007, 12:11:01 pm
Scott Hibbard wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 11:52


P.S. Ivan...I wish the TH-Mini had a built-in pole mount.


Hmmm, maybe a bracket that spans a pair of them with a pole mount on it? I suspect a single doesn't have the stability to have a pole mounted top up there.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Steve Hurt on December 16, 2007, 12:13:34 pm
Quote:


index.php/fa/13024/0/
Evan


My wife came in and asked me what I was laughing at.

That cake is awesome!
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 16, 2007, 12:27:21 pm
Hey guys!
I've decided to post what my findings were:

Clair ML18: (pair)

I'm on the same boat as the other people in what I found in the Clair and why we took it out of the mix... I just have numbers for this sub:

SQ: 7
Size V. Output: 7
Overall Output: 7.5
Overall Rating: 7

JTR Growler: (review of a pair)

I found these very impressive for their size! They went lower than I expected and did have some good low punch, especially for the rap and dance... I agree that you may have to dial in more kick with some playing around.  Very smooth sound which really impressed me and I really liked, since I will take good sound over a couple of db any day!  They where fairly efficient with the same power compared to other subs,  In all I was impressed what they did for their size!

SQ:  8.5
Size V. Output: 8
Overall Output: 8.5
Overall Rating: 8.5

TH-Mini: (Pair)

First let me say, if you were to do a blind test of these and crank them for someone for a bit, and then take away the curtain, I think that many people would have a hard time believing that, that sound came from these!  They are tiny!  They can go loud and are fairly smooth sounding.  They have a nice midbass but do lack that low punch... of course because of their size!  They lacked the punch from a kick a little more than the Growlers did... but they definitely held their own for their size!

SQ: 8
Size V. Output: 9.5
Overall Output: 8
Overall Rating: 8.25

Yorkville USC1: (a pair)

I was more impressed with these than I thought I would be, since I haven't heard tons and tons of praise form people.  They do have very nice punch to them when you put some nice kick drum through them.  They could get loud and 2 of them did well against 1 LS1208!  I thought they put out what they should for their size.  But did kinda sound like they would just run out of gas!

SQ: 8
Size V. Output: 6.5
Overall Output: 7.5
Overall Rating: 7.25

TH-115: (single)

I was excited to hear this one... I think it did live up to my expectations... but not $2100 worth! (I agree with Evan on that point!)  I would have been nice to hear them as a pair but Ivan said it would just get louder because of the tapped horn.  Did have nice smooth punch to it but it almost sounded strained.  I don't no if something way slightly off... There was a weird noise from inside that we couldn't figure out where it was coming from... but in all it is a Danley product so it definitely was some presence to it!

SQ: 9
Size V. Output: 7
Overall Output: 8.5
Overall Rating: 8.5

Yorkville LS1208: (single)

This sub definitely made its presence known right when you fired it up!  Very efficient when given the same power that the other were getting, for being only 1!  It had a lot of punch... but the only thing that annoyed me was the midbassy boomy sound.  It was not as punchy as the TH-115 though... it did get low though, it seemed to be in the top 2 of the bunch in regards to how low it got! Big!!

SQ: 7.5
Size V. Output: 6
Overall Output: 9
Overall Rating: 7

Labsub: (pair)
I don't think I have to repeat what has already been said!  It is crazy loud as single and just runs away when in a pair! Crazy Efficient and got low!  But it is huge, compared to what I could handle!  It had lots of impact and the sound quality was good... but not as smooth as the Growlers or 115s which is a bit of a minus for me...

SQ: 8
Size V. Output: 5
Overall Output: 9.5
Overall Rating: 8

Peavey QW218: (Pair)

Definitely got low... and did have a good amount of impact... not  as smooth sounding as the Growlers... 1 QW218 seemed to have just about the same amount of impact as 2 Growlers.

SQ: 8.5
Size V. Output: 7
Overall Output: 8.5
Overall Rating: 8

Turbo21: (Pair)

These didn't really suit me to much... it had a slight bit of a boomy sound... although not as much as the 1208.  It got low but lacked that punch that I like!  They are comparable to 2 QW218s

SQ: 7
Size V. Output: 7
Overall Output: 7
Overall Rating: 7

In all this was a great experience! Thanks Evan and Jim for setting this up!  It was great meeting everyone and I would love to meet up again!  I learned a lot!

And as I heard a couple people say..."You wouldn't be disappointed taking any of the subs home that we showcased today!"

Take Care and Thanks!
Phil Lewandowski!
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Brandon G Romanowski on December 16, 2007, 01:00:00 pm
    You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Scott Hibbard on December 16, 2007, 01:17:46 pm
Rob - that's a good idea esp. for larger mains.  I would think however the TH-MINI could easily support a smaller active cab without any issues (i.e. something under 50 pounds)

Hope you are well Rob,
ScottH

Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 16, 2007, 01:42:19 pm
Steve Hurt wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 12:13



My wife came in and asked me what I was laughing at.

That cake is awesome!


My cake decorating skills are almost as good as my TRX-122 modification skills. I think my TReX-122 wedge took the prize on the unofficial wedge shootout. Laughing

P.S. As a side note I used that wedge for a bar band I work with that night. No Complaints! It might sound better when I order the DE200 or BMS HF for it.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 16, 2007, 01:46:39 pm
brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 13:00

    You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys.


Apples to oranges man.

Show me processor settings for these subs, oh wait, their arent any! Rolling Eyes




Evan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 16, 2007, 02:12:08 pm
It didn't hit me untill I saw it in Evans' photo, but that might be one of my old ones.  I had a good pile of them that I used back when I had rental company in that area (NO VA-MD DC) back in the 80's.  I had painted all of them white-I wish I had taken a closer look at the paint job Laughing
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 16, 2007, 02:20:47 pm
Rob Spence wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 12:11

Scott Hibbard wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 11:52


P.S. Ivan...I wish the TH-Mini had a built-in pole mount.


Hmmm, maybe a bracket that spans a pair of them with a pole mount on it? I suspect a single doesn't have the stability to have a pole mounted top up there.


That is precisely why the mini doesn't have a ple mount.  If you put a small cabinet on it, no problem, but if you put a heavier cabinet on it, it could easily fall over if hit-opening up liability issues.  It was greatly debated.

You can also put one on yourself (you can buy just the pole cup), but if you want to go that route-contact Danley to find out where you can put it-don't just cut a hole-you might hit something Shocked .
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!TH115 Buzz
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 16, 2007, 02:28:50 pm
I wasn't aware of the "weird sound" out of the TH115 early on-you had to get up close to it to hear it.

Later we found out what it was.  the screws holding the grill on have plastic washers under them.  The screw had become ever so slightly loose on one fo them and the washer was buzzing around.  A turn of the screw driver fixed it. Smile
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Brandon G Romanowski on December 16, 2007, 02:34:57 pm
     By apples and oranges you must mean subs with DSP and subs without DSP.

I guess its just low end though. right Evan?  Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Dan Kok on December 16, 2007, 02:40:05 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 12:46

brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 13:00

    You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys.


Apples to oranges man.

Show me processor settings for these subs, oh wait, their arent any! Rolling Eyes




Evan


For TH-115s, how about here:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/Danley%20TH-115%20Spec%20 Sheet_r2.pdf
where it says:
"Recommended signal processing: 20 Hz highpass @ 24 dB/Octave"
- and -
"Crossover: Low pass 100 Hz"

If you contact them they say:
"Hi pass @ 25 Hz 24 dB/Octave Butterworth, low pass is contingent on your tops, but I'd use the same crossover/slope. We usually roll them off at 60-70 Hz but they are fine up to 100-150 Hz.   The subs are flat so no equalization is required but you can adjust to taste."

The TH-115s have rising frequency response starting at 80 Hz.  Others here have mentioned that they hear a "honk" at the upper end.  I high pass at 25 Hz and cross at 75 Hz as per a recommendation from Langston Holland.

Disclaimer: I own four TH-115s and I admit I'm disappointed to read Evan's lukewarm review.  I don't know how to get from "I was pretty disappointed with this one." to "But, with that said, they sound great. They went the lowest out of any single sub, and sounded the best by far."  I also wonder if there would have been so much concern for "mid-bass" (arguably, not what a subwoofer is for) had the tops been a model without a known mid-bass deficiency.

I'm sure the event was fun and I apologize in advance for the wrath this will likely bring down, I'm just trying to understand the results.

--
Dan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 16, 2007, 02:45:57 pm
Dan Kok wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 14:40



Disclaimer: I own four TH-115s and I admit I'm disappointed to read Evan's lukewarm review.  I don't know how to get from "I was pretty disappointed with this one." to "But, with that said, they sound great. They went the lowest out of any single sub, and sounded the best by far."  I also wonder if there would have been so much concern for "mid-bass" (arguably, not what a subwoofer is for) had the tops been a model without a known mid-bass deficiency.

I'm sure the event was fun and I apologize in advance for the wrath this will likely bring down, I'm just trying to understand the results.

--
Dan




Hey!
I also was impressed mby the 115 but not as impressed as I thought I would be!  It stood out but not as much as I thought it would.
I think it would have helped to have a second to get the same 2 to 2 although 2 would just make the Danley's louder and wouldn't have much effect beside that. We did do comparisons of 1 Danley to 1 of everything else and like I said it didn't stand out as much as I thought it would! I think that is what Evan meabt by his statements!

Take Care!
Phil Lewandowski
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Scott Smith on December 16, 2007, 02:53:14 pm
brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 13:00

    You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys.

Testing proceedures can certainly be an issue of debate.

I personally prefer the method of giving each sub the same exact signal, and see how they actually compare.  While crude, it would tell a fair story.  Of course, as we know, many cabs will require some DSP or EQ'ing to bring them to life, so more advanced testing would have accomplished this.

There are so many ways the subs could be compared.  Comparing 1 sub against 2 doesn't seem fair, however if the subs are small and would likely be used in pairs per side, then this may fair after all.

I would think a sweep from 20hz-90hz with db measurements would be the most accurate.

It's clear some did better in the low end, and some in the upper end.  Higher output seemed to go hand in hand with cab size.  Everything seems to be a trade off.

What would be most important to me would be the most output with the least amount of power, with size and price considerations.  Thanks for the test results.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Dave Barker on December 16, 2007, 02:54:49 pm
I also own 6 of the TH-115's (OK so I might be slightly prejudiced) and was at the shootout.  I think that where the Danleys truly do shine and something that we never did was put the gas to any of the cabinets.  I do believe this would have revealed some things about some of the cabinets that we didn't hear.  One thing about the Danley's is that when pushed they just sound better, they don't break up they just get louder.  

During the test the single box was at a lower overall level but it also went noticeably lower then any of the other boxes and had what I felt anyway the best and cleanest sound.  Whether 2100.00 per box is a lot, I don't know, I bought mine after the NY shootout where they throttled boxes that cost 2 & 3 times as much.

The Lab Subs are amazing boxes though.  They are efficient, powerful and huge.  I remember then from at Evans last get together shaking tiles off the ceiling.

Pretty much the same feelings on the other boxes as what has been expressed.

Thanks again to Evan for putting everything together and to Jim for hospitality.

Dave Barker

Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Vic Cowles on December 16, 2007, 02:56:23 pm
Thanks for posting this shootout and your opinions.  I am guilty of questioning peoples opinions on this board. After all Evan, I like Growlers how come your not gonna buy em???? I'm going to try and change that. The why didn't you do that and the why didn't you do this thing is BS.  This shootout was done the way it was. Everyone there has an opinion.  If I want to test differently I'll set it up myself. However, I won't.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results! Not so easy
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 16, 2007, 02:57:03 pm
Let's look at the facts.  If you were to do a "proper alignment" with the full range box-exactly how would YOU do it.

The only way would be to have a go bit of time and a bunch of DSP presets that you would switch in as needed.

That could be done-with time, except when you started putting up several subs together and the full range box (which was just used for reference sub level was higher (level wise) than it should have been anyway) is a different physical distance from each box.

Since it was a SUB listening party, what level would you run the subs at?  If you make them flat with the top-then that is no fun Laughing .  So if you are going to have the subs a bit higher than the top-exactly what would that number be?

The plot thickens that since you would be using a DSP with alignment, then the difference in sensitivity of the various cabinets would be lost.  That can be both a good and bad thing.

It is good if they all have the same output level (or very close) which would allow you to hear the actual tonal differences between cabinets, rather than the added SPL of some cabinets clouding up what you are hearing.

It is bad because the sensitivity is completely gone and all cabinets would appear to have the same level with a given input.

It is easy to argue both ways.

And you also  have to keep moving the top box around to sit on top of the particular subs-which gives various different listening positions.  We were switching cabinets and if somebody had to keep running around with the top cabinet, it would again throw things off.

And if you were to use a DSP, do you start to correct for certain things in the particular cabinets response?  Like a boost/cut here and there, but what the cabinet actually "sounds" like, get lost.

What are the limits of what would be done as far as "alignment".

I personally had no problems with the way the DSP was setup-Jim choose the parameters.

It was more of a "see what each cabinet sounds like by itself" NOT a "see what each cabinet souunds like when aligned to the top box" kind of thing, because everybody used different tops, so the various alignments would be different for each user.

Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on December 16, 2007, 03:01:12 pm
brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 13:00

    You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys.


I think you should take the test for what it's worth. As someone who is just reading the reviews and wasn't there, I feel that this was a perfectly appropriate Lounge-level test. While there are plenty of us with nice amps and nice DSP, a significant portion of the Lounge folk are going to be using analog crossovers.

I view these tests in this manner: What would happen if I swapped out my subs, without doing a complete system overhaul? This is a very useful perspective for me, since our systems go out the door in a dozen different configurations.

"All things being equal, here is how they rate."

We expect subs to sound better with proper settings, amps with just the right power rating, in different cluster sizes and room positions.  That's what we get when we tweak and optimize and usually spend more money to build the system up around the cabinets we select.

This series of listen tests was a baseline comparison between models.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 16, 2007, 03:46:20 pm
That was the intention of the shootout.

I will also add that there was no attempt to compensate for different wattage because of different impedances.

The dual driver subs that were present were the labs and the Peavey 2x18".  So people have to remember that twice the "wattage" was "applied" to those cabinets.  Everything was switched using the same voltage-ie input signal level.

And also when listening to subs (at this level of play) is how many can you hookup to a particular amplifier.  You could hook up more of the single driver subs-resulting in a 6-12dB increase over a single cabinet for a given amplifier size.  

When evaluating subs- it is about several things.  Sound, how many can you transport, how many can you hookup to existing amplifiers, and the TOTAL of all of these is how loud will it get?

It is NOT just about a single sub, unless that is all you intend to use.  So many variables.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Steve Hurt on December 16, 2007, 05:21:58 pm
I've really enjoyed reading this thread!  

Being able to read people's comments on subs I'm very familiar with (Growlers) helps me understand their comments on other subs.  Very glad the Growlers were included!  fwiw, I agree with a lot of comments on the Growlers (both the positive and not so positive ones)

For instance:
evan  -edited-

 a lot of ass for their size ....  but not a lot of impact
..... very "musical .....  lacked impact from the kick hits
they do pack a good amount of output for their size.

and
Matt Vivlamore -edited-

 ... most of the time it couldn’t reproduce the over-riding kick over the bas guitar.

and
Phil Lewandowski edited-

I found these very impressive for their size! They went lower than I expected and did have some good low punch.....


Even though I wasn't at the shootout, my feelings about the Growlers are similar in most areas.  My $.02:

Loud for their size - Lots of low end - Sound good
Need tiltback corner cutout and wheels (like the UCSI wheel design)
Needs rubbber feet and pole cups (I added feet and pole cups.  Growlers are available new w/pole cups)
I mentioned having some trouble getting the kick out front in a thread a while back and it was (correctly) suggested that properly time aligning them helps this a lot.
Still, I agree that the Growler kik is more "pillow-y" than a 728 double 18 front loaded kick.

And then there was this comment:
evan

However, in singles, the output just disappears.


I use them in singles all the time and they are more than loud enough for the job so I guess I just need less output.
If the sound that I'm getting (and is more than enough for the job) is "dissapeared", then ..... well ........ .......
I really HAVE to try them center coupled some time just for fun!!! Smile

Thanks for doing this shootout!!!
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Rob Spence on December 16, 2007, 05:25:06 pm
It seems to me that some folk are confusing crossover settings with  what are commonly called "DSP" settings which I take to mean using the parametric EQ to smooth out a cabinet response and also use some delay if needed to align the cabs.

Evan did say what crossover settings they used.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Victor Kouli on December 16, 2007, 05:47:38 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 11:47

Bob-
1. DSP settings were pretty simple: HPF @ 90hz, LPF @ 20hz.

Evan

=====================

You meant quite opposite (HPF @ 20Hz/LPF @ 90Hz), did you?
Smile

Victor
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 16, 2007, 06:05:10 pm
I refer to DSP settings as everything from EQ to crossover filters to limiting to level to delay and more-as that is what you use a DSP for.

It is not a single function device and the power of a DSP is what allows you to get the most precise alignment of a loudspeaker system-if done correctly Very Happy .  If not you can really screw things up a lot more than with analog.

It is all in how you use the tool.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Mike Christy on December 16, 2007, 06:11:21 pm
I wish I was in MD Saturday, I am really sorry not to meet everyone and enjoy the party. Hats off to everyone who put time in and lent their expertise to make it happen, especially the bakery  Laughing

With regard to Steve's comments,

I have used Growlers as singles recently, and I too find them adequate for some applications, especially corporate parties. I have yet to have anyone tell me to turn it up, no matter what the gig, even rock gigs with only 2 cabinets.

With that statement, the system is what it is, if the subs are the limiting factor in SPL with regard to overall spectral balance, then it is what it is. My job is to provide quality sound, not necessarily to blow everyone out of the room, although  I feel it is my job to translate the bands energy via the PA, and proper high levels of SPL are important for this.

But as center coupled I find a pair of Growlers work wonderfully, and I really regret setups where they have to be separated.

If the output of a specific pair of subs is not at the require SPL, then another set are are probably required. I think this is probably true no matter what the brand.

I'm a little confused by the kick comments at the listening party since there was no live kick drum/mic setup and it was all pre-recorded music played through the system. How can one differentiate between and tag one set of subs as "DJ" subs or live sound subs with only recored music as a reference?

Correct me if I am wrong, but front load reflex speakers will always have more "presence" associated with them with respect to horn loaded. With that said, I find it difficult to compare the two different animals, one is apples, one is oranges, neither are bad, both are good. And the kick will sound different through each.

The fact that the Growlers fill a nitch exceptionally well, are scalable, and run neck and neck with much high priced and better regarded subs - all without much DSP processing - really says a lot about Jeff's engineering efforts.

Great job in MD guys, Evan, Jim and others, I have enjoyed reading the comments. Sorry for the ramble, snowed-in days are boring...

Mike
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Scott Smith on December 16, 2007, 06:18:32 pm
What interest's me is what single sub outperformed the double 18 sub?  And if so, what was the trade-off?  Price?  Size?  At a truly comparable 4 ohm load, how do 2 Growlers compare to a double 18 cab?

The bigger boxes went lower, or got louder.  So how much SPL do the smaller boxes sacrifice for their size?

Were DB measurements taken at different frequencies for each cab?
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 16, 2007, 07:00:41 pm
Mike Christy wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 18:11

I wish I was in MD Saturday, I am really sorry not to meet everyone and enjoy the party. Hats off to everyone who put time in and lent their expertise to make it happen, especially the bakery  Laughing

With regard to Steve's comments,

I have used Growlers as singles recently, and I too find them adequate for some applications, especially corporate parties. I have yet to have anyone tell me to turn it up, no matter what the gig, even rock gigs with only 2 cabinets.

With that statement, the system is what it is, if the subs are the limiting factor in SPL with regard to overall spectral balance, then it is what it is. My job is to provide quality sound, not necessarily to blow everyone out of the room, although  I feel it is my job to translate the bands energy via the PA, and proper high levels of SPL are important for this.

But as center coupled I find a pair of Growlers work wonderfully, and I really regret setups where they have to be separated.

If the output of a specific pair of subs is not at the require SPL, then another set are are probably required. I think this is probably true no matter what the brand.

I'm a little confused by the kick comments at the listening party since there was no live kick drum/mic setup and it was all pre-recorded music played through the system. How can one differentiate between and tag one set of subs as "DJ" subs or live sound subs with only recored music as a reference?

Correct me if I am wrong, but front load reflex speakers will always have more "presence" associated with them with respect to horn loaded. With that said, I find it difficult to compare the two different animals, one is apples, one is oranges, neither are bad, both are good. And the kick will sound different through each.

The fact that the Growlers fill a nitch exceptionally well, are scalable, and run neck and neck with much high priced and better regarded subs - all without much DSP processing - really says a lot about Jeff's engineering efforts.

Great job in MD guys, Evan, Jim and others, I have enjoyed reading the comments. Sorry for the ramble, snowed-in days are boring...

Mike



Mike,

I have to agree that the kick comments that I made and a couple other poeple made, couldn't be judged by the pre-recorded music.  I guess what you could say is that the Growlers didn't shine as much getting that kick through in a pre-recorded track. But as you say that will be very different than putting a live mic'ed kick though it!

Take Care!
Phil Lewandowski
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound on December 16, 2007, 07:11:30 pm
Hi Guys,

My take from the shootout is available here (including the SMARRT6 files available for download), http://www.cobrasound.com/MDSubwoofers

I will hopefully be adding the measured frequency responses of each sub soon.

One thing I would like to add here is that the listening tests were not performed at matched SPL or matched input power so that may or may not impact some listeners' results.  Also, I think many of the subs present would sound even better with further EQ and DSP tweaks.  We were basically testing and listening to the raw unmodified output.

Jeff
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Dan Kok on December 16, 2007, 07:55:51 pm
Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 18:11

Hi Guys,

My take from the shootout is available here (including the SMARRT6 files available for download), http://www.cobrasound.com/MDSubwoofers

[...]

Jeff


Interesting there's a TSW-718 in your picture.  At one time I _really_ wanted those, now not so much.  Was their fate similar to the Clair sub?

Thanks,

--
Dan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Raj Sookraj on December 16, 2007, 08:02:27 pm
How can we view those Smarrt files?
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 16, 2007, 08:10:00 pm
You have to use Smaart V6, I have not figured out a way to use V5, but have a question out there and waiting.

I just downloaded the 30 day trial of V6 and it works fine-to view the files anyway Laughing
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Phil LaDue on December 16, 2007, 08:10:12 pm
Never mind.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 16, 2007, 08:11:25 pm
The measurements are in Jeff's files, but I don't think they were even listened to.  Basically high sensitivity, but drop off sharp at a fairly high freq for a sub.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results! Mind games
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 16, 2007, 08:12:11 pm
The particular SPL that you listen at can really affect what you "think" you hear.

A couple of years ago Mike and I were listening to what should have been identical subs.  One on each side of an amp with the same signal driving both sides of the amp.  They did not have same "tonality".  After checking several things we noticed that the input attenuation on one side was down between .5 and 1dB-one click.

When we adjusted that, the "tonal issues" went away.  I was amazed that such a small difference in level could affect the sound.

It is really easy to play "mind games" that really mess with your head without you realizing it.

I would like to try the same type setup we had, but with the output levels matched-as best as possible with different freq responses.  I wonder how much the responses would change from people?  Of course matching levels would be purely subjective and open to ridicule.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Duane Massey on December 16, 2007, 08:12:27 pm
Actually, I would prefer a test done exactly the way you did it. No EQ, no tweaking, just the same signal to each box without adjusting for the box's deficiencies or anomalies. I'd much rather have a box that sounds really good with no tweaking than one that needs lots of electronic massaging to sound acceptable.

I really wish there was something like this done in our area, but geography is not very friendly in Texas when it comes to getting a lot of people together for an affair like this.

Good job, guys, and thanks.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Chris Davis on December 16, 2007, 08:21:57 pm
Duane Massey wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 20:12

Actually, I would prefer a test done exactly the way you did it. No EQ, no tweaking, just the same signal to each box without adjusting for the box's deficiencies or anomalies. I'd much rather have a box that sounds really good with no tweaking than one that needs lots of electronic massaging to sound acceptable.

I really wish there was something like this done in our area, but geography is not very friendly in Texas when it comes to getting a lot of people together for an affair like this.

Good job, guys, and thanks.


+1
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: The Guy on December 16, 2007, 11:11:31 pm
Dan Kok wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 19:55


Interesting there's a TSW-718 in your picture.  At one time I _really_ wanted those, now not so much.  Was their fate similar to the Clair sub?

Thanks,

--
Dan



Hi Dan,

The TSW718 sensitivity was very high...similar to the LAB sub.  I guess they didn't get included because Evan didn't originally have them on the shootout schedule.  I just had them in my shop and wanted to throw them in the mix.

-JB

Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Dan Kok on December 16, 2007, 11:32:22 pm
Jim Bowersox wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 22:11

Dan Kok wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 19:55


Interesting there's a TSW-718 in your picture.  At one time I _really_ wanted those, now not so much.  Was their fate similar to the Clair sub?

Thanks,

--
Dan



Hi Dan,

The TSW718 sensitivity was very high...similar to the LAB sub.  I guess they didn't get included because Evan didn't originally have them on the shootout schedule.  I just had them in my shop and wanted to throw them in the mix.

-JB




The Smaart graph of the TSW-718 does look impressive but I didn't read that anything was done to make sure the results were normalized across all of the subs tested so I wasn't sure what to think.  Something is going on at 59 Hz in all of those graphs.

I like the sound of the TSW-718, I've heard guys get it just right with a MA5K on four of them in a bar and they have this great "Brraaap" sound on the kick drum.  I'm going to guess they're probably not the most accurate what with the short horn and all but it's a very pleasant kick sound.

--
Dan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jim Duyck on December 17, 2007, 12:01:11 am
i wonder if the LS1208 would've had less SQ issues if it had been high passed higher...in doing some homework, i saw that the TH115 spec sheet recommended 20 Hz HPF.  I don't know all of the boxes, but I bet a good portion of them are recommended at higher settings...I don't just know of many situations where I would ever implement a 20 Hz HPF in a live band setting - even with the Danley's - but I'm the kind of guy how'd give up a few Hz's for a few dB's...if that makes sense.

I agree that there was no sense in applying any EQ to boxes, and i think there's no question that these subs should be able to run to 90 Hz (or any reasonable fixed frequency chosen for a shootout) without issues, but maybe using manufacture's HPF specs might help highlight what each box was designed to do, as opposed to asking, say - a TH mini to do that low, low stuff off a PL9.0!!!  Or a slightly more conservative fixed number like 30 Hz if you still want it to be easier to plug and play, but where a box capable of going lower would still show it.  kind of middle of the road or something

thanks, though, for the vast array of boxes to compare and contrast

i don't want to be part of nit pick gripe session - maybe just a simple thought for some other time down the road. Cool
Title: shootout?
Post by: Tim Duffin on December 17, 2007, 01:11:54 am
did you or did you not use a Wattmeter to compute how much power was going to each sub --- Also, did you remember to put a shorted speakon into the other subs so that they weren't acting as a dynamic load and changing the sound because of sympathetic resonances of the other boxes?

From just reading the methodology, the only thing you tested was the impedance of the various woofers.  Since Labsubs have lower impedance, they obviously were louder than everything else simply because they were getting more power, even though the blinky lights were the same.


If you have the time, I would like to see what all these woofers did when they had the EXACT same measured amount of power.

T
Title: Re: shootout?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 17, 2007, 01:18:16 am
bummer...

JR
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Dave Rickard on December 17, 2007, 02:02:51 am
brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 11:00

    You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys.


Of course boxes sound better with corrective DSP applied.

Perhaps you can host the next one and show everyone how to do it "right"?
Title: Re: shootout?
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 17, 2007, 02:02:53 am
Here are my thoughts. I was running the switcher and assisting with swapping out subs so I didn't do a score card:

-Some people ask about DSP settings, and why we didn't change them for every sub. I think lately everyone is determined to DSP the crap out of everything instead of just making a good sounding box to begin with (Hey remember when manufacturers used to try and do that  Laughing ). DSP's are great tools but minimal DSP would be a better way to show the "True" nature of a box and point out any design flaws or weirdness. Ivan told us about a Danley box that is designed with physical pieces inside of it to optimize the sound as opposed to electronic correction, Glad to hear somebody is making a good sounding box straight out of the package  Smile  

-The Clair ML-18's we tested I don't think were terribly impressive because of the way they were done side by side with a bunch of horns. Obviously they are not going to be as efficient being a low sensitivity front loaded box, but if anyone recalls when I fired a pair of them up after during playtime and turned down the mains so you could hear what they were doing to the building they seemed a little more impressive. I like them for what they are, and used in the right application with a decent amount of power behind them they sound good especially for a single 18" box.

-I will disagree with the negative review of the Turbosound 21" subs. Again, they sounded lame compared to some of the other subs when applied with the same wattage but when we did they "Crank them up and see how loud they get" test they were a force to be reckoned with. Do about a stack of 6 of them and they will pummel you with low end.

-I was not overly impressed with the TH-115 but I thought it sounded nice, the output just didn't seem there compared to some of the others, but I would definitely be willing to bet they are impressive in groups of 4.

-I liked the growlers, some killer output for a small box, but moving them was slightly awkward, and they started walking around when cranked. I think some ergonomic issues are all that need to be addressed on these.

-LS1208: How does it fit through a doorway???

-Danley mini, Very neat little sub, I see lots of potential for install use in a house of worship or theater setting where size is important.

-QW-218, Granted they were getting more power, but if we were to pretend that available wattage wasn't an issue I was surprised at how well they held up next to some similar class horn loaded boxes.

That's about it. Good to see and meet you all.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results! A little note
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 17, 2007, 07:58:54 am
For those playing along at home with the measurements.

Just a quick statement about the measurement process.  The call of the day was a SUB shootout/quick measurement.

There are a couple of full range boxes in Jeffs files.  The mic setup was fine for subs, but not so much for full range measurement-which was a last minute "while we are at it" sort of thing.

The actual mic was about 1/8" off of a small (2x2"?) piece of cardboard on the floor.  This was done to protect the mic and wouldn't matter for subs, but will produce squirrelly stuff on the top end response of the full range boxes.

Jeff just used a quick auto align and that was it-no effort was really put into getting an "accurate" measurement-due to conditions of the space-ie indoors.
Title: Re: shootout?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 17, 2007, 08:07:55 am
This was LISTENING party, not a measurement party.  BIG difference.

The whole measurement process took probably 1/2 hr once we got started.  It was just a comparisom based on a given input voltage.

How do you figure we tested impedance?  I don't see anything that suggests that.

What type of "watt meter" do you suggest for this?-I am not aware of any.  Wattage is based on impedance and input voltage, with the impedance varying quite a bit-so actual wattage will be very different depending on freq.

And how would you suggest we produce the exact same wattage to each loudspeaker?  Would that be based on the minimum impedance point in the curve? or maybe the rated nominal impedance? or maybe an average across the band-but exactly what if the band of interest?  

Which ever way you choose-there will be people who will complain about the method used.  You can't please everybody.

It is not so easy to do/determine with consistant results between different cabinets, but is real easy to want others to do.
Title: Re: shootout?
Post by: John Halliburton on December 17, 2007, 09:14:13 am
I'm curious, when listening to the subs, was each(or each pair) brought out to the same spot in the warehouse, without any of the other subs sitting next to each other like the picture shows, and was the listening position(I'm assuming the mic distance is the same)for each person at the time of auditioning consistent?
I can't help but wonder about this, since these things can easily influence the sound one hears-room modes.  I realize what the event was, but this is fairly simple to accommodate.

Any more pictures?

BTW, Evan, it used to be that 90% of the subs from Tom weighed more than a LAB Sub, while being the same size(45x45x22.5), which is same dimensions as the old Clair S4 tops.

Sorry I couldn't make it.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: shootout?
Post by: The Guy on December 17, 2007, 09:24:16 am
Regarding DSP settings:

The subs were initially HPF'd at 20Hz but then later raised to 30Hz, as some of the little guys were obviously not happy with trying to reproduce 20.  The LPF was set at 80 with a 24dB per octave slope.  It seems that some people are causing a stink about not using the "recommended DSP" for these subs, but in reality, we were doing what the manufacturer suggested.  The Danleys, Peavey, Turbo TSW721, LS1208, and UCS1 do not have any "supplied DSP" settings that I'm aware of, just HPF and LPF filters.  I know for a fact that the LAB subs do not have any published tunings (although I do have filters that I use in the larger blocks to get the midbassyness under control.)

John:
When measuring the subs, we did have them sitting alone in the same place for every sub (marked on the floor with tape.)  Other subs were nowhere to be found.  When we started listening and comparing, we had a line of them set up.  Granted I know this could cause changes in room response, etc, the idea was to be able to switch between them as quickly as possible (instantaneously, actually, thanks to Ivan's remote relay switcher!)  Had we had to stop and move subs around, I don't think this effect could've been achieved nearly as well.  Switching back and forth quickly was actually extremely effective at comparing subs.  

-JB

P.S., Tim:
The LAB subs are a nominal 4 ohm cabinet, same as the QW218 boxes or any other dual-driver sub.  I wish you had brought out your Wattmeter and your shorted speakons though to make this more official.  As always, thanks for your Monday Morning Quarterback advice.


Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Steve Payne on December 17, 2007, 09:41:54 am
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sat, 15 December 2007 20:22


Finally, the Turbo 21:
Another sub that didnt impress me too much. Ive heard them before and think they do much better when you get about 6 or 8 of them. But a pair, well, it just wasnt anything to brag about. They sound good and have a smooth sound, but the TH mini's were able to get within a few dB of their performance. The 21's seemed to knock out the lower notes a little better, but in the 60hz+ range, it was a crapshoot. They got a 7 on SQ, 5 on output and 6.5 overall.

Evan



For the record, we have used TFL780/TSW721's for a very long time.  As you said - more sound much better.  They work great when deployed per their design.  A couple of these speakers should be viewed as elements of a bass system - not as a pair of bass speakers.  The proper use of these speakers dictates that a pair be laid on their side with the mouths coupled.  Now stack another pair on top of these with the same orientation.  Repeat.  A block of four just begins to take advantage of the intended coupling.  When you have six or eight boxes stacked  three or four high, you will have a very efficient and usable bass system.  This is the way they were designed to be used.  Plugging in a couple of them and saying that they are "nothing to brag about" is  equivilant to plugging in a pair of world class line array boxes and saying you're not impressed.

This is a minimum sized bass stack that will begin to perform as designed.  It is not likely you would complain about the bass capability of this system.

index.php/fa/13035/0/
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound on December 17, 2007, 10:17:45 am
I've updated my post at http://www.cobrasound.com/MDSubwoofers with the frequency response graphs for your enjoyment.

Jeff
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Winston Gamble on December 17, 2007, 10:43:25 am
Sounds like a good time was had, and thanks for doing it.
It's pretty amazing how many people can come out of the woodwork with suggestions of how to do things right, but some how they never manage to actually do it themselves.

I do have a comment and a question. The comment is in response to the following.
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 01:22

 TH115:
You know, I was pretty disappointed with this one. For $2100, I was expecting more. Of course, there was only 1 there and it would have been nice to have a second... But for just one, I wasnt feeling it. But, with that said, they sound great. They went the lowest out of any single sub, and sounded the best by far. They have a very smooth sound, but lack in the midbass. DJ's would not like them. They got a 10 on Sound Quality, but I only gave them a 6 on output. When I measured the single sub, it was doing 112dB cont, with the PL9.0 flickering -10. Personally, I do not think they are worth the money. If you are looking for a very "musical" sounding sub that goes low, then it might be your ticket. But, one just wasnt as impressive as I thought it would be. I gave them a 7 overall.

Evan


I find it interesting that Evan wasn't impressed with the sub that he say's, "went the lowest and sounded the best by far". This made no sense to me until I assumed that it must be purely the effect of the sticker shock which I understand plays a very big role for a small purchaser like Evan and most of us here in the lounge myself included. It is important to note that the only other commercial product in it's performance range namely the Bassmax line come at the same price premium and if the Labsub were to be manufactured and marketed I would expect it to be just as spendy.

My question Evan is in regards to the TH-mini. Small and loud is currently my area of interest (I'm still trying to fit everything into a 5x10 trailer) and I don't have an issue with lack of response below 45hz for our blues band small club PA application. I'm curious how you would compare your impression of the mini to your previous small Yorkville sub experience as the mini carries a "small" price premium as well over other smallish subs.

Thanks, Winston.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Scott Smith on December 17, 2007, 10:47:16 am
Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 10:17

I've updated my post at http://www.cobrasound.com/MDSubwoofers with the frequency response graphs for your enjoyment.

Jeff

They all seem to have the same bump at around 60hz.  Is this because of the room?
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 17, 2007, 10:57:30 am
Scott Smith wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 10:47

Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 10:17

I've updated my post at http://www.cobrasound.com/MDSubwoofers with the frequency response graphs for your enjoyment.

Jeff

They all seem to have the same bump at around 60hz.  Is this because of the room?


Yes!  We did see that pop up in all of them and figured it was from the room.

Phil!  
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results! A little note
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 17, 2007, 11:06:41 am
Hi Ivan: thanks for trying to keep it real.

One problem that I can imagine if trying to apply corrective EQ is that pesky old Q or bandwidth discrepancy between different EQ implementations. The AES standards body is supposed to be working on this, but until this gets cleared up, any mfr that publishes a recommended curve, needs to also specify the platform that curve was generated with (or perhaps multiple platform presets).

As far as I can see, the center frequency and amount of boost/cut will track between platforms. Only the Q or shape of the boost/cut applied can vary. This can lead to a less flat corrected response.

JR
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ryan Lantzy on December 17, 2007, 11:45:33 am
Winston Gamble wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 10:43


I find it interesting that Evan wasn't impressed with the sub that he say's, "went the lowest and sounded the best by far". This made no sense to me until I assumed that it must be purely the effect of the sticker shock which I understand plays a very big role for a small purchaser like Evan and most of us here in the lounge myself included. It is important to note that the only other commercial product in it's performance range namely the Bassmax line come at the same price premium and if the Labsub were to be manufactured and marketed I would expect it to be just as spendy.



I've never listened to the TH-115 in an environment conducive to "judging."  That said, I see where Evan is coming from on this.  At the Lounge level (and even between lounge and lab) price has a lot to do with perceived value.

The TH-115 is a bit on the pricey side, compared to many of the subs there.  Not that the TSW21 was cheap, but it can be had for a  reasonable price now since the only source is used.  

The best way I can think to compare subs fairly (number of boxes, etc) is by price.  How many boxes to get you with in say 10-20% the price of another set of boxes.  

Obviously, I could by many more cheap subs and then I'd have a lot of boxes.  However, that is another way to rate then... price vs. size.  And since the field would be normalized on price, it's an apples to apples thing.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 17, 2007, 12:27:38 pm
I will attempt to try and answer this as unbiased as possible-I personally LOVE the TH115.

After listening to all the various subs in the same situation, the best thing I can come up why Evan (and others) may not have been impressed with the TH115 is because of its "lack" of "sound".

By this I mean it really did not have a character to it that others had.  For example, the labs had an "aggressive" sound to them that would be great for metal/hard rock.  The labs were the most "fun" cabinets there-probably why Evan liked them Laughing .  The Yorkvilles had a more "wooly" sound, fairly deep but lacking in detail/punch.

The TH115 seemed "bland" by comparisom and just did a good job of reproducing what went into it, without adding a sound of its own.  It did seem lifeless as compared to others.

So the real question is what are you looking for a sub to do, accurate reproduction or have a particular tone of its own?

There is no "right" answer and it really depends on what you are looking for.

Also to remember that during some tests there was a single TH115 against 2 labsubs.  In that case the labs were getting 4 times the power the TH115 was and had twice the cabinet/4 times the cones, so the shear output was quite a bit more.  

Now if there had been 4 TH115's (same wattage/impedance and just about the same cubic volume, I think there would have been some very different results posted Very Happy
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jim Duyck on December 17, 2007, 12:55:03 pm
or almost 12 Growlers in the same $$$ ballpark on the deal i got... Rolling Eyes

i definitely agree price is no doubt a large factor in the lounge arena...biggest bang for your buck does go a long way here...

however, i'd love to hear the danley's some day, too...

and, fwiw, i'd never noticed how compact (thin) the qw's are...minus the 80's logo, they do look rather pro...of course, i've only seen carpeted peavey boxes in person.  me and alot of the public, i bet...more power to the versa array folks then...

and to think what folks' options were at lounge level, 10 years ago... Cool
Title: Re: shootout?
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on December 17, 2007, 01:02:56 pm
Tim Duffin wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 22:11

did you or did you not use a Wattmeter to compute how much power was going to each sub --- Also, did you remember to put a shorted speakon into the other subs so that they weren't acting as a dynamic load and changing the sound because of sympathetic resonances of the other boxes?

From just reading the methodology, the only thing you tested was the impedance of the various woofers.  Since Labsubs have lower impedance, they obviously were louder than everything else simply because they were getting more power, even though the blinky lights were the same.


If you have the time, I would like to see what all these woofers did when they had the EXACT same measured amount of power.

T

"lay off the pipe, crack whore!"

It was a "listening" event.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 17, 2007, 01:18:30 pm
Ivan Beaver wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 12:27

I will attempt to try and answer this as unbiased as possible-I personally LOVE the TH115.

After listening to all the various subs in the same situation, the best thing I can come up why Evan (and others) may not have been impressed with the TH115 is because of its "lack" of "sound".

By this I mean it really did not have a character to it that others had.  For example, the labs had an "aggressive" sound to them that would be great for metal/hard rock.  The labs were the most "fun" cabinets there-probably why Evan liked them Laughing .  The Yorkvilles had a more "wooly" sound, fairly deep but lacking in detail/punch.

The TH115 seemed "bland" by comparisom and just did a good job of reproducing what went into it, without adding a sound of its own.  It did seem lifeless as compared to others.

So the real question is what are you looking for a sub to do, accurate reproduction or have a particular tone of its own?

There is no "right" answer and it really depends on what you are looking for.

Also to remember that during some tests there was a single TH115 against 2 labsubs.  In that case the labs were getting 4 times the power the TH115 was and had twice the cabinet/4 times the cones, so the shear output was quite a bit more.  

Now if there had been 4 TH115's (same wattage/impedance and just about the same cubic volume, I think there would have been some very different results posted Very Happy


Ivan,
I have to agree with you on this!  I was impressed by the 115 but not as impressed as I thought coming into this thing.  I think it would have helped to have at least 1 more there.  I have to say I did like the flat response of it and how good it sounded...(as I noted in my review)...but I think from my point of view I couldn't rationalize spending $2000 on 1 because it isn't in my budget!  If I did have that money (and truck space) I do believe 2-4 115s would be on the top of my list!

Take Care!
Phil Lewandowski
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 17, 2007, 01:23:36 pm
I recall an exchange with TD a couple years ago now, on this very subject. It will be difficult to educate listeners to what "clean" sounds like. In fact there is probably a preference due to familiarity, for the current state of technology and practice in the marketplace. I wrestled with tolerance of amplifier clipping.

While this is probably not the proper thread for marketing advice I'd search out some musical source to demo, for educational purposes, where the added distortion clearly sounds bad. This may not be that easy to do since human hearing often perceives harmonic overtones as the root note. Sometimes the brain will even perceive a lower difference phantom fundamental note if it only hears the distortion. If you can't come up with an example where the clean response is important to that customer base you have over engineered the tool for that market.

I am a fan of linearity, but if the benefit is not perceived by the customer, they will not pay up for it. This is not a matter of charts and measurements,. There needs to be some smoking gun musical demos. The only musical sound source in this frequency range that does not routinely generate harmonic overtone series is the common membranophane (drum). The overtone series which actually varies with relative tension between batter and resonant heads is commonly on the order of 1.7x. Clearly not a harmonic. Some special tom heads with added mass (dots) at the center try to pull the overtone closer to 2x with limited success.

Perhaps a listening test between a real kick drum, and recording of said drum played though the sundry speakers would highlight the artifacts introduced by woofs with harmonic distortion. Note: don't use a tympani for this demo since they do operate with a (near) harmonic series of overtones.

The customer is always right, so the Danley may just not be the best choice for price sensitive entry level systems, despite measurable superiority, if this superiority can't be proved with demos.

JR
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jim Duyck on December 17, 2007, 05:06:03 pm
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 12:23

The only musical sound source in this frequency range that does not routinely generate harmonic overtone series is the common membranophane (drum). The overtone series which actually varies with relative tension between batter and resonant heads is commonly on the order of 1.7x. Clearly not a harmonic. Some special tom heads with added mass (dots) at the center try to pull the overtone closer to 2x with limited success.

Perhaps a listening test between a real kick drum, and recording of said drum played though the sundry speakers would highlight the artifacts introduced by woofs with harmonic distortion. Note: don't use a tympani for this demo since they do operate with a (near) harmonic series of overtones.JR


at first i thought, "wow...he sure knows a lot about drums..."  and then i followed the link in your signature Shocked

dang...that's pretty crazy stuff!
Title: not my kind of party
Post by: Tim Duffin on December 17, 2007, 08:22:13 pm
Ivan Beaver wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 05:07

This was LISTENING party, not a measurement party.  BIG difference.

The whole measurement process took probably 1/2 hr once we got started.  It was just a comparisom based on a given input voltage.

How do you figure we tested impedance?  I don't see anything that suggests that.

What type of "watt meter" do you suggest for this?-I am not aware of any.  Wattage is based on impedance and input voltage, with the impedance varying quite a bit-so actual wattage will be very different depending on freq.

And how would you suggest we produce the exact same wattage to each loudspeaker?  Would that be based on the minimum impedance point in the curve? or maybe the rated nominal impedance? or maybe an average across the band-but exactly what if the band of interest?  

Which ever way you choose-there will be people who will complain about the method used.  You can't please everybody.

It is not so easy to do/determine with consistant results between different cabinets, but is real easy to want others to do.




First, what the hell is a listening "party" and how can you make any conclusions based on your very unscientific and obviously biased results.  Fact is, you could see which subs were playing and therefore everyone who liked a particular brand was automatically biased and heard whatever they wanted and whatever made them happy about the subs that they liked.  "the silver subs sounded better because they sounded more shiny"

Second.  saying some versions of some speakers are "louder" really doesn't show anything-- the testing impedance bit which I wrote was in jest...as in:  'you tested nothing but found that the impedances of woofers are different, thus some are "louder"'

Third.  Um, seriously, you have never seen a wattmeter before?  Hmmm... I question your experience with electronics.  The way that you do it is by computing the voltage x current for specific frequencies only.  So, you would play a continuous 50hz (for instance) tone and use your handy laptop interface (or ammeter for laypeople) to figure the amount of current flowing into a speaker over unit time.  One could get 'all scientific up in this piece' and do it for 10 seconds and then divide by 10 to get more accurate 1 second wattage, or just wing it and make sure that the values are similar for similar amplifier output voltage.  And yes, they make actual wattmeters which allow you to see how much power is going through it and into the load.  

By isolating specific, narrow band frequencies and then computing the amount of power flowing through a woofer system only at that frequency, you can effectively eliminate any measurement bias related to dynamic impedance.  Then, if you are still ready to get all scientific, you can plot the different points for the different freq values, connect the dots and get --ready for this?---curves, yes I said 'curves' which show the output in acoustic watts vs electical watts and graphically see which systems have higher output at specific frequencies and power levels.  Of course you would need to graph a different set of curves for every arbitrary power level that you arbitrarily chose to measure.  Then, you would need to do it for variable frequencies-- meaning that you would now have 3 variables in 3 dimensions or what some of those wierd 'scientific speaker people' would call a waterfall plot.

Contrary to your statement, it is possible to measure something in a scientific manner which silences naysayers in every circumstance, it just requires more effort and resources which aren't typically available to those who would make those claims.  The fact that you aren't aware of consumer wattmeters kind of bugs me-- ever heard of the kill-a-watt?  


And yes, before you get all googly, I am aware that this device is for static loads.

T
Title: Re: not my kind of party
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on December 17, 2007, 08:35:25 pm
Tim Duffin wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 17:22

First, what the hell is a listening "party" and how can you make any conclusions based on your very unscientific and obviously biased results.


You are missing the point.

There are (at least) 2 aspects to every purchase:

1. The scientific - Right tool, right spec, right ROI - etc.
2. The visceral - factors that are hard to quantify, and hard to agree on. But they exist nevertheless.

I happen to appreciate the effort these guys took to let us in on their efforts.

So it isn't fully scientific? Who cares. Listening down at LDI to a bunch of systems was no more scientific.

We know the biases and backgrounds of most of the people. Now we get their honest impressions.

Sheesh - what more do want?


(edit - spell check first)
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Scott Smith on December 17, 2007, 08:49:23 pm
Phil Lewandowski wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 13:18

Ivan Beaver wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 12:27

...Also to remember that during some tests there was a single TH115 against 2 labsubs.  In that case the labs were getting 4 times the power the TH115 was and had twice the cabinet/4 times the cones, so the shear output was quite a bit more.  

Now if there had been 4 TH115's (same wattage/impedance and just about the same cubic volume, I think there would have been some very different results posted Very Happy


... I think it would have helped to have at least 1 more there...

I find it disappointing that the "listening" results could be so skewed by how many boxes were present.  If you were comparing "pairs", then that's how they all should have been compared in my opinion.

Also...a 60hz bump on every cab?  This (to me) yields much of the test tainted.  The boxes should have been tested outdoors.

Without accurate db readings or fixed voltage readings, much of the test is simply subjective.  But that's fine...it appears to have been a "casual" listening party for general purposes.

I certainly appreciate the "effort" that went into this shootout, but I'm not sure it answered enough questions.  I also commend the guts to put a critique out there with such a tough crowd.
Title: Re: not my kind of party
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on December 17, 2007, 08:55:55 pm
Tim Duffin wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 01:22

First, what the hell is a listening "party" and how can you make any conclusions based on your very unscientific and obviously biased results.  Fact is, you could see which subs were playing and therefore everyone who liked a particular brand was automatically biased and heard whatever they wanted and whatever made them happy about the subs that they liked.  "the silver subs sounded better because they sounded more shiny"


Tim, a "listening party" is where a bunch of people sit around and listen to subwoofers. Duh! Attendees also get to check out fit and finish, ease of use, etc and examine a bunch of speakers that you can't see at your local banjo store. Personally I would take peoples opinions on sound quality/quantity from this event with a grain is salt.

Quote:

Second.  saying some versions of some speakers are "louder" really doesn't show anything-- the testing impedance bit which I wrote was in jest...as in:  'you tested nothing but found that the impedances of woofers are different, thus some are "louder"'


Exactly. Thus Evan and everyone else who commented that this or that sub was louder than another is talking right out their asses.

Quote:

By isolating specific, narrow band frequencies and then computing the amount of power flowing through a woofer system only at that frequency, you can effectively eliminate any measurement bias related to dynamic impedance.  Then, if you are still ready to get all scientific, you can plot the different points for the different freq values, connect the dots and get --ready for this?---curves, yes I said 'curves' which show the output in acoustic watts vs electical watts and graphically see which systems have higher output at specific frequencies and power levels.  Of course you would need to graph a different set of curves for every arbitrary power level that you arbitrarily chose to measure.  Then, you would need to do it for variable frequencies-- meaning that you would now have 3 variables in 3 dimensions or what some of those wierd 'scientific speaker people' would call a waterfall plot.


Come on Tim.  Rolling Eyes This event was a simple hang out and listen to speakers event. Doing this much work was well beyond the scope of the shootout and is, IMO a wholly unreasonable request on your part.
Title: Re: not my kind of party
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 17, 2007, 09:07:03 pm
Tim Duffin wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 20:22



First, what the hell is a listening "party" and how can you make any conclusions based on your very unscientific and obviously biased results.  Fact is, you could see which subs were playing and therefore everyone who liked a particular brand was automatically biased and heard whatever they wanted and whatever made them happy about the subs that they liked.  "the silver subs sounded better because they sounded more shiny"

T



Tim,
I have to say that I was there and this was a huge help!  Just listening to a speaker helps so much in deciding what to purchase!

I have to agree that for the people not in attendance this makes it a lot harder to judge what we heard!  But I think for all in attendance it worked great!  

I agree that because we didn't try and match any kinds of wattage that was going into the subs, you can't say anything about volume!  That is why in my review I tried to stay away from saying one was louder than the other!  I really tried to focus on other aspects of their sound.  

That is what I believe why it was labeled a "listening party".
To listen to bunches of kinds of music through bunches of different subs! And it was worth the 12 hours of driving to me!

Take Care!
Phil Lewandowski  
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 17, 2007, 09:19:09 pm
Scott Smith wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 20:49

n that's how they all should have been compared in my opinion.

Also...a 60hz bump on every cab?  This (to me) yields much of the test tainted.  The boxes should have been tested outdoors.




It was a bit chilly up here for that Scott. A pleasent 30 something degrees with the threat of an ice storm. Smile

I think people are taking this shootout too seriously. Nobody there had a lab coat and clipboard and Jim's shop does not contain a special anechoic chamber. It was just an opportunity to hang out with friends and put some subs side by side and see what they could do. Y'all need to chill and take it for what it is.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 17, 2007, 09:22:43 pm
Tom Manchester wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 21:19

Scott Smith wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 20:49

n that's how they all should have been compared in my opinion.

Also...a 60hz bump on every cab?  This (to me) yields much of the test tainted.  The boxes should have been tested outdoors.




It was a bit chilly up here for that Scott. A pleasent 30 something degrees with the threat of an ice storm. Smile

I think people are taking this shootout too seriously. Nobody there had a lab coat and clipboard and Jim's shop does not contain a special anechoic chamber. It was just an opportunity to hang out with friends and put some subs side by side and see what they could do. Y'all need to chill and take it for what it is.
And it was for the people who attended it, like the NY shootout. It was not for all of you who are complaining that it wasn't the way you wanted it. Everyone who has the ideal way to run an event like this please let us know when you are doing it so we can attend. Or maybe we'll just wait for your measurements.

Mac
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: The Guy on December 17, 2007, 09:25:46 pm
I guess if we had consulted with Duffin before this, we could've installed one of these in between the speakers and the amp:

index.php/fa/13040/0/

We could've had someone count how fast the wheel was spinning while we were thumping away with a certain sub, and record the results.  I think we'd ALL be singing a different tune for sure then!  Tim, quit pissing on the picnic and listen to the music for once.

-JB

P.S.: I want to install one of these in my distro and bill Visiting BE's for the amount of electricity they use during their band set.

Title: Re: not my kind of party
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on December 17, 2007, 09:42:18 pm
The subs had pretty close power ratings, except for a few of them.  They had a possible watts of 1800 at 8 ohms and 3200 at 4 ohm from the PL9.0.

8 Ohm cabs
Clair ML18 - 300 watts at 8 ohm (according to the website)
JTR Speakers Growler - 1000w program at 8 ohms
Yorkville UCS1 - 1000w program at 8 ohms
Turbosound 21" - 1200w program at 8 ohms
Yorkville LS-1208 - 1200w program at 8 ohms
Danley TH-mini - 1400w program at 8 ohms
Danley TH-115 - 2000w program at 8 ohms

4 Ohm cabs
LAB12 - 1600w program at 4 ohms
Turbosound TSW-718 - 1600w program at 4 ohms
Peavey QW218 - 3200w program at 4 ohms

Granted the best way to test each of the subs would of been infront of a crowd of ~200 screaming body bags with a live band.

We listened to subs in singles and doubles (ones that where present).

Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Scott Smith on December 17, 2007, 10:00:45 pm
Well...I am a believer of "run whatch'a brung".  Again...I appreciate the "efforts" that went into this endeavour.  Rigid scientific results can take a back seat to the obvious fun, friendship, and fellowship that went into this event.  
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Owen Davis on December 17, 2007, 10:23:12 pm
Christ, I can't believe the amount of abuse Evan and the rest of y'all are having to take for doing this!   Try to do something cool, fun, and informative and sure enough someone has to come in and bitch & moan.

For my part, I want to thank all you guys for posting your results/impressions/findings/etc.  I think there is a ton of great and useful info there for those of us who weren't lucky enough to be able to attend.  No I don't take any of it as gospel-word.  I understand that this wasn't about exact science.  I realize this was a listening party.  I get it that the "results" are entirely subjective.  I understand the limitations and compromises in the process.  I still think it's useful.

I also understand that this wasn't done for me.  The folks who did this did it for themselves, and they figured, "what the hell, while we are at it, let's let some other folks in on what we found out".  They weren't under any obligation to the rest of us to do an ultra-scientific study according to our specifications and provide us with "the truth".  I think it's pretty cool that they did what they did.

That does bring up my only criticism/complaint about the whole thing - and that is the fact that the meeting wasn't close by to me so that I could attend!  You bastages!!  (you probably didn't even save me a piece of the cake, did you?)

So, really, thanks guys for doing this and for letting all of us in to your little party - at whatever level works for you.  It's appreciated.

od.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound on December 17, 2007, 10:23:12 pm
Hi Guys,

As has been stated, this was all just for fun and very casual.  We're not trying to push any measurements or results on anybody.  We tried to make our measurements consistent between boxes so that they could be a common reference point to the other boxes that were there in THAT room.

Take the results and opinions from people that were there with a grain of salt and move on.

If someone wants to step up and host an all out measurement event, I'm all for it and will gladly bring some toys to the party.

Jeff "would gladly rock the party with enough of any of the subs that participated" Knorr Smile
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: The Guy on December 17, 2007, 10:48:20 pm
Jeff has an excellent point that I think we all heard....all of the subs present at the Shootout (Listening Party) were decent and quite useable for most situations.  Of course some were tailored for different applications, but all were good products and all of them made some thump!

-JB

Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Brandon G Romanowski on December 17, 2007, 11:37:31 pm
You know... I feel  like I started all the pissing an moaning about the DSP, and I certainly did not mean to. This is a really cool thing you guys did. I only wish I knew a dozen people in Buffalo who would set up a bunch of subs listen to them fill out score cards and call it a party. Also i know that regardless of DSP you guys got a good feel for each of those cabs.

          Thanx for the insight  

                   B*Rad
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 18, 2007, 01:43:21 am
Tom Manchester wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 21:19


I think people are taking this shootout too seriously. Nobody there had a lab coat and clipboard and Jim's shop does not contain a special anechoic chamber. It was just an opportunity to hang out with friends and put some subs side by side and see what they could do. Y'all need to chill and take it for what it is.



+100

I try to do one nice thing for the LAB community and it starts a pissing match.... Rolling Eyes

Here's what it comes down to: we wanted to hear all the subs everyone always talks about on the LAB in one place at one time. Then we were nice enough to post our reviews of the said subs online and even some data. Sure, it's not perfect, but everyone's meaning of "perfect" is different... This was a very casual event and should be taken with a grain of salt, unless you were there. But, at least now you have some reviews of the subs to look at and hopefully it will help some people when they buy their next subs.

If you dont like the way we did things, then get over it. Go host your own damn event and tell us how your measurements are better than ours and how your data is perfect.

Until you host something "better," and post your results, shut up. Shit or get off the can. But dont tell me how we should have done it. I could care less. Whats done is done.





Evan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Dave Rickard on December 18, 2007, 01:53:41 am
Theodore Roosevelt, "Man in the Arena" Speech given April 23, 1910
26th president of US (1858 - 1919)

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.


(Does anyone else see Robin Williams saying this because of "Night at the Museum?)  Laughing

Evan,

Don't let a couple of armchair critics ruin this for you.  
I'm glad you guys had fun.  Wish I could've been there.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Elliot Thompson on December 18, 2007, 04:36:09 am
We need to keep in mind Evan, started this topic in the “Lounge” and posted results in the Lounge. If he was planning anything highly technical he would’ve created this topic in the “Product Reviews: Sound Reinforcement” forum.

From my analysis, this get together was more laid back than many are accustomed to reading in regards to the usual Subwoofer Shootout expressed on the LAB. Purely for the Small DJ/Garage type band. Which I’m assuming, is the reason both topics started in the lounge. The dead giveaway is the amount of boxes used. Let’s be honest. Anyone who’s that critical on measurements, listening opinions and, so forth, is not going to be toting one bass cabinet at their gigs.

It’s that very reason why the Danley TH 115 sounded “okay” but not “fantastic” to a few who attended. As far as I remember, the TH 115 was always promoted using four cabinets with the bare minimum or two. Many of those boxes at the Maryland Shootout were designed to be used in groups whereas, a Reflex (Peavey QW 218) don’t require multiple boxes to extend its low frequency response.

With the exception of the TH Mini, members of the board reviewed all of those subs at one time or another. So there are plenty of users that can give you the technical mumbo jumbo if need be.

If Ivan is very nonchalant about the whole affair then, it should tell you that this wasn’t as technical as the armchair critics are trying to make it.

Best Regards,
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!Measurement-Smeasurement
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 18, 2007, 08:28:16 am
For the arm chair quarterbacks, if you read back when Evan first mentioned the shootout, I suggested making some QUICK response captures just for reference.  I knew they would not be "tech data", but could be useful in some ways-which they do help explain some things that we "thought" we were hearing-even I was fooled-untill I saw the data.  

I appreciate Evan allowing the time to take some quick shots.

For those who are hung up on data, let me say this.  Data doesn't tell you what a particular product "sounds like".  It can help, but is not the end all.  I have played with boxes that have identical responses (even after setup to within 1/2dB) yet sound TOTALLY different.  You can't pull that from the data.

At first I was not going to go, but later decided to go and am glad I did.  It gave me chance to listen to various type and manufacturers of subs side by side being switched out quickly.  Yes there are issues with having subs side by side, but how would the naysayers plan on listening to various subs quickly if you have to move them around.  The mind has a short sound "memory"

How many of us that run monitor consoles will often tell the "guy" (road manager/tech etc) to hold on a second when we know we have done all that can be done for the monitor mix in question, and duck down to the amp racks for a couple of seconds and then pop back up and ask "How's that?" and they say fine.  Yet we have done nothing!  It works most of the time.

Yes the room was not "perfect", but was representative of many venues in size.  Yes the "bump" at 60ishHz is a room mode-deal with it.  You do in real life-right?

Yes, nothing is "perfect"-whatever that is Confused .  It was very worthwhile for me.  How often do you get to listen to that many different subs and just "play" with them.  Yes the music selection varied thoughout the day as did the levels.  But it was very informal and anybody could listen to whatever they wanted in whatever configuration.

I don't think anybody went away saying-I wish I had heard this next to that-unless they simply forgot to mention it during the event.

If people want it done in a different way, then they are more than welcome to do one on their own.  They provide the venue, the test gear, arrange shipment (both to and from the event) of loudspeakers, provide food drink (thanks again Evan, Jim and Tom and girlfriends and others involved) etc.

If it gets to "sterile" it gets boring quick.  This was intended to be fun and it was.  

A lot of what went on goes beyond just listening to subs.  When you get a bunch of audio guy together, there are lots of conversations, questions, answers and such that people walk away with a lot better understanding of "audio stuff" than hopefully they walked in with.

So Tim, when are you going to host an event-I wonder how many people will turn out to yours?

Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!Measurement-Smeasurement
Post by: Dave Barker on December 18, 2007, 08:43:10 am
Heck I still can't believe nobodys even brought up the Monitor Wedge listenting party that we had with the new Danley wedge.

That should keep things going!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!Measurement-Smeasurement
Post by: Bill Staley on December 18, 2007, 09:45:04 am
I have been very interested in the TH-115.  I currently have four EV MTL-1X's and am considering selling all four to get two of the TH-115's.  My main concern is portability and saving packing space in the trailer.  Based on reviews I had read over the past few months it seemed perhaps two of the TH-115's could keep up with or surpass the output of four MTL-1X's.  For those of you who were there can you confirm if this is true or not?

I'm not crazy about the pricetag, but if I can find two boxes to take the place of four boxes I would most likely be willing to pay the premium to make it easier on my back and take less space in the trailer.  I cannot find anybody in my area with the TH-115's so I am mainly going off of what other people who have heard them are saying.

FYI, my main application is 200-300 seat clubs doing rock/metal/country bands.

Thanks
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!Measurement-Smeasurement
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 18, 2007, 11:13:30 am
Dave Barker wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 08:43

Heck I still can't believe nobodys even brought up the Monitor Wedge listenting party that we had with the new Danley wedge.

That should keep things going!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think the 2 Carvin wedges and the Yamaha Club series blew it away Laughing

No seriously though, I think it (the Danley) sounded very hi-fi and had decent output, but I think the sheer driver size of the microwedge would take it to school in an SPL contest.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!Measurement-Smeasurement
Post by: Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound on December 18, 2007, 11:45:58 am
Hi Bill,

Looking at the specs of the two different models, it looks like you'd be able to pull that off (switching from four MTL-1X's to two TH-115's).  The TH-115's would definitely give you much more low-bass than you're currently getting out of the MTL-1X's.  They're also about 20 LBS or so lighter.  Overall max SPL should be with fairly close depending upon frequency and power available.

Where are you located?

Jeff
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!Measurement-Smeasurement
Post by: Michael Hedden Jr. on December 18, 2007, 12:27:12 pm
Tom Manchester wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 16:13

Dave Barker wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 08:43

Heck I still can't believe nobodys even brought up the Monitor Wedge listenting party that we had with the new Danley wedge.

That should keep things going!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think the 2 Carvin wedges and the Yamaha Club series blew it away Laughing

No seriously though, I think it (the Danley) sounded very hi-fi and had decent output, but I think the sheer driver size of the microwedge would take it to school in an SPL contest.


Don't underestimate the power of a large horn!
Based on the Radian published specs the maximum continuous output of either the 12" or 15" version of the microwedge is 123-124dB which is right in line with ours.  
http://www.radianaudio.com/products/micro/rmw-1152.php?viewT =micro&viewC=rmw-1152


Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!Measurement-Smeasurement
Post by: Bill Staley on December 18, 2007, 03:47:47 pm
Jeff,

PM sent.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!Measurement-Smeasurement
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 18, 2007, 05:03:25 pm
Michael Hedden Jr. wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 12:27



Don't underestimate the power of a large horn!
Based on the Radian published specs the maximum continuous output of either the 12" or 15" version of the microwedge is 123-124dB which is right in line with ours.  
 http://www.radianaudio.com/products/micro/rmw-1152.php?viewT =micro&viewC=rmw-1152


Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.


Hey Mike, I think my eyes are what decieved me on this one. You guys need to foam back that grill and paint a picture of a 15" and 2" driver on it  Razz
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!Measurement-Smeasurement
Post by: Aaron McQueen on December 18, 2007, 05:18:33 pm
Tom Manchester wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 17:03

Michael Hedden Jr. wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 12:27



Don't underestimate the power of a large horn!
Based on the Radian published specs the maximum continuous output of either the 12" or 15" version of the microwedge is 123-124dB which is right in line with ours.  
  http://www.radianaudio.com/products/micro/rmw-1152.php?viewT =micro&viewC=rmw-1152


Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.


Hey Mike, I think my eyes are what decieved me on this one. You guys need to foam back that grill and paint a picture of a 15" and 2" driver on it  Razz


I mentioned that to Jeff when I saw it.  I think some musicians may feel the same way and not accept it.  I thought it sounded great though.  It gave me an idea of what the SH100 would sound like combined with the TH-mini.  I'm considering this setup.

In case someone missed what we are talking about, Danley had a new wedge there. It's based on the SH-100B and uses the same driver and horn.

I was only there for the first few hours so I'm not going to comment on all the subs.  I was there to hear the TH-minis and the Growlers.  The minis did not disappoint for their size.  The Growlers sounded fine but the fit and finish needed some work.  I helped stack one and it was a little awkward.   The USC1 surprised me.  And the TH-115's went very low a were very smooth compared to the others I heard.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!Measurement-Smeasurement
Post by: Michael Hedden Jr. on December 18, 2007, 05:26:16 pm
Hey Mike, I think my eyes are what decieved me on this one. You guys need to foam back that grill and paint a picture of a 15" and 2" driver on it  Razz [/quote]

Already in the works, well foam grill that is!  
You are correct that looks can definitely affect perception.  The most extreme example I ever saw was a Magnavox stereo speaker I found left over from some old component stereo system.  Looking through the grill cloth it appeared to be a two way design with a soft dome tweeter and a 8" woofer.  One day I took the grill off and found the woofer was actually a 4" driver with a silver colored stenciled frame painted on the baffle that was made to look like an 8" through the grill!  It gets better, what appeared to be the soft dome tweeter was actually a stenciled/painted frame and where the soft dome should be was only a hole, no driver at all! Shocked
No breakup modes here!

Merry Christmas,

Mike Hedden
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on December 18, 2007, 05:34:56 pm
Winston Gamble wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 10:43

....It is important to note that the only other commercial product in it's performance range namely the Bassmax line come at the same price premium and if the Labsub were to be manufactured and marketed I would expect it to be just as spendy...

Without a doubt, Winston.

The Danley saves you all that time and tools (and uncertain results due to possible builder error), and allows us to buy tapped-horn performance right off the shelf.

By the way, kudos to Mr. Kirkendall for hosting this event, and I understand the informal format (is that an oxymoron?), sorry I couldn't attend due to prior commitments. I only question whether, going forward, we can have a proper LAB get-together without go-kart racing.  Laughing
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jim Duyck on December 18, 2007, 06:47:47 pm
to give those who didn't see it an idea what it looks like, do any of you fine folks have a pic of the new Danley wedge???  thanks.  
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 18, 2007, 07:14:00 pm
Jim Duyck wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 18:47

to give those who didn't see it an idea what it looks like, do any of you fine folks have a pic of the new Danley wedge???  thanks.  


index.php/fa/13058/0/

Tom's modded TRX wedge, Danley wedge and Microwedge





Evan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 18, 2007, 07:41:34 pm
Pictures: here





Evan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!Measurement-Smeasurement
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 19, 2007, 08:26:29 am
The tweeter "dome" is actually just a piece of wood.  Talk about your "hard dome tweeter". Laughing
index.php/fa/13075/0/
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 19, 2007, 08:45:52 am
Here is a closer shot.  Data should be up on the website soon.  It may not look like it, but the whole front is a horn.  The next ones will have a foam backing behind the grill.

index.php/fa/13076/0/
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Dave Dermont on December 19, 2007, 09:10:23 am
Mike Butler (media) wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 17:34

 I only question whether, going forward, we can have a proper LAB get-together without go-kart racing.  Laughing


Hey, my new house gig is about a mile from Mohegan Sun at Pocono Downs, a slot parlor & horse track.

Racing reopens March 31. Should we schedule the get-together before or after that date?
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 19, 2007, 09:23:05 am
Dave Dermont wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 09:10

Mike Butler (media) wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 17:34

 I only question whether, going forward, we can have a proper LAB get-together without go-kart racing.  Laughing


Hey, my new house gig is about a mile from Mohegan Sun at Pocono Downs, a slot parlor & horse track.

Racing reopens March 31. Should we schedule the get-together before or after that date?


How about an 18" raw driver shootout?
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 19, 2007, 02:36:07 pm
Dave Dermont wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 09:10

Mike Butler (media) wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 17:34

 I only question whether, going forward, we can have a proper LAB get-together without go-kart racing.  Laughing


Hey, my new house gig is about a mile from Mohegan Sun at Pocono Downs, a slot parlor & horse track.

Racing reopens March 31. Should we schedule the get-together before or after that date?


Is that In PA?  If so I might be able to attend sonething there!

Phil!
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: SteveKirby on December 19, 2007, 02:50:52 pm
Bob Leonard wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 08:23


How about an 18" raw driver shootout?

In T18's?   Cool
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jeff Babcock on December 19, 2007, 05:50:57 pm
I would suggest that the next lab get together not be a "shootout".  What about just getting people together fairly informally, and have people each bring some interesting pieces of gear that others might want to see and play with....

Off the top of my head something like this.....
Dude #1 brings APB Prorack and a Dolby Lake or similar stuff
Dude #2 brings SPL Transient Designer and some other less common processors
Dude #3 brings LS9/M7CL/PM5/Digi-Venue or similar
Others bring Misc tops and subs, misc fx, gates, comps, mics etc.

Almost like a Mini-tradeshow, but without all the hype and crap about tradeshows... just real people bringing their favourite toys to check out and let others play around with.

It would need SOME organization to keep it from becoming a free for all, but not a lot and I'd bet MANY would be interested.....

Just my 2c
Jeff
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 19, 2007, 06:26:58 pm
Jeff Babcock wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 17:50

I would suggest that the next lab get together not be a "shootout".  What about just getting people together fairly informally, and have people each bring some interesting pieces of gear that others might want to see and play with....

Off the top of my head something like this.....
Dude #1 brings APB Prorack and a Dolby Lake or similar stuff
Dude #2 brings SPL Transient Designer and some other less common processors
Dude #3 brings LS9/M7CL/PM5/Digi-Venue or similar
Others bring Misc tops and subs, misc fx, gates, comps, mics etc.

Almost like a Mini-tradeshow, but without all the hype and crap about tradeshows... just real people bringing their favourite toys to check out and let others play around with.

It would need SOME organization to keep it from becoming a free for all, but not a lot and I'd bet MANY would be interested.....

Just my 2c
Jeff



Sounds like my first get together. I always try to get all the best gear together for one big show and have everyone rock out. It's always fun seeing all the latest and greatest toys come together on the gig and do an amazing show.




Evan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ryan Lantzy on December 19, 2007, 09:45:17 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 18:26

Jeff Babcock wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 17:50

I would suggest that the next lab get together not be a "shootout".  What about just getting people together fairly informally, and have people each bring some interesting pieces of gear that others might want to see and play with....



Sounds like my first get together.


Hmmm...  I have a pretty cool gig for this next summer that might work.  Should be the last weekend in July.  West-Central, PA.  It's a pretty sizable outdoor event.  Basically, it's a town picnic in the evening, about 2000-3000 people, open to the public, BYOB (I think).  Band plays, Fireworks, Band plays some more.

Whaddya think?  As long as it doesn't rain, it could be pretty cool.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Chris Semler on December 20, 2007, 12:08:03 am
I'm kinda late with this but....

I was very impressed with the lack of coloration that the TH115 had It was the most hi-fi of all the subs there. But I agree that the low end extension would not really be so necessary in most lounge type rock gigs. Had we listened to music where the low end extension was really needed I think the crowd would have been more impressed.

This was also my first time hearing the labs. I was actually surprised by the amount of coloration that they added to the sound. From descriptions I had read I expected them to be much more transparent. I am probably nit picking here because my expectations were so high. The output was incredible!

The LS1208 was probably my least favorite sub there. It just added to much of it's own sound due to panel resonance. The strange thing was that it appeared to have adequate bracing perhaps this particular one was a lemon.

The UCS1 did sound very good but much less output than the LS1208

The QW218 sounded very good as well. There is just something about front loaded 18's. I would have really liked to have been able to compare it to the versarry 218 and maby an sb850 for reference. It would have been nice to hear it back and forth with the UCS1 some more. I was not able to really decide which I liked better.

It also seemed to be a tough decision between the growlers and the mini's I would probably choose the growlers unless I was stuck driving a compact car to gigs. It is really a matter of if the reduced size is worth the loss of the lower frequency's. But the mini's were so small that what they did was extremely impressive.


I was really impressed with the Danley wedge it sounded so good! It was very smooth and natural sounding. I really liked hearing it sitting on top of the 2 mini's. The foam really needs to be in there to keep people from hearing with their eyes.

The day was a very good time as well thanks Evan and Jim.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on December 20, 2007, 12:51:00 am
Ryan Lantzy wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 18:45


...2000-3000 people, open to the public, BYOB (I think).  Band plays, Fireworks, Band plays some more.

Whaddya think?  As long as it doesn't rain, it could be pretty cool.

Hmm, Johnstown, PA... definitely not when it's raining...
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 20, 2007, 08:06:25 am
The Growler/mini comparisom is an interesting one.  I also thought the Growlers had more low end when listening to them.

The interesting thing is when you look at the measured responses.  Part of what your ear hears is relationships, not so much absolutes.

Yes the Growlers had a little (1 1/2dB or so) more low freq below 50Hz than the minis did.  But above 55Hz the minis were that much or more louder (up to about 110hz).

But the ratio of the lower response (below 50Hz)to the upper response 50-100hz is greater with the minis, making the growlers seem to a much greater  low freq output than they actually have-in relation to the minis, because of the lower upper bass output.

Is this good or bad-it just depends?  Our ears are falling off in response at this point, so the extra bump may be good-maybe not, it just depends on where you need louder output-above or below 50Hz.

As always when choosing subs, a person has to take into account all the issues including sound quality (with low freq extension), sound quantity (sensitivity and power handling), size, price, fit/finish etc.

Different people need different needs-there is no one size fits all.

That is why events like this that allow people to hear/see a good variety of subs together and in various combinations are useful.

And the only way a person can judge for themselves is to be there. Laughing

Only so much can be gathered by looking at spec sheets (if enough proper data is supplied on it-not just numbers)-the ear is the final judge.

EDIT-clarity
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Rob Spence on December 20, 2007, 09:42:54 am
One thing I really liked about this event since I couldn't attend was the photo of all the subs in a row.

That had lots of value in an of itself!!!

At NY, I got to help move all the subs and got a good idea as to how hard they were to move (the four man lifts were a bit over the top).

Anyway, sure was nice to see the sizes. Evan, Tom, Jim and the rest of you, thanks for doing it!
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on December 20, 2007, 09:53:12 am
Geez...I spent three years with my last 4 subs.  I finally decided to upgrade from those 4 LS808's to something notably better.  I looked and listened, compared prices, looked at the competition's subs, calculated trailer space, etc.  I thought I did all the homework I needed.  Now you guys have me wondering if my new (to me) 1208's were the right choice or not.

Were the 1208's notably worse, or just not the favorite of the group?  Having read a lot of the older threads they seemed pretty well liked by most  that heard them (for their price range), up until this shootout.  I now question myself and thats not a good feeling two weeks after purchase.  Seems like Evan might be the only one that liked them much.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 20, 2007, 09:57:38 am
Are they doing the job for you?  If so, then fine.  Don't worry about it.

Get your moneys worth out of them, THEN look at something new.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Scott Smith on December 20, 2007, 09:59:27 am
Stuart Pendleton wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 09:53

Geez...I spent three years with my last 4 subs.  I finally decided to upgrade from those 4 LS808's to something notably better...Now you guys have me wondering if my new (to me) 1208's were the right choice or not...

Popular subs on this forum may be more like fashion...what's "in" this year may be "out" next year.  Of course people's needs change too.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Mike Christy on December 20, 2007, 10:11:23 am
Stuart,

Those 1208s were on my top 5 list, if they were 72#s lighter I may own some now myself ( Ill bet the Neo drivers help with that figure ). I cant believe that you made a bad decision. Pump some juice through them suckas and make them work for ya!

Mike
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on December 20, 2007, 10:12:49 am
They do the job, so not an issue.  It just makes me question my ears.  My customers and I like them so they aren't going anywhere.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound on December 20, 2007, 10:13:01 am
Hi Stuart,

Have you had a chance to use the LS1208's on some real gigs yet?  How did they perform?  How do you think they faired vs. the LS808's that you were running?

I wouldn't write the LS1208's off.  I think they offered quite a bit of bang for the buck and wouldn't hesitate to hook them up in a live rig to see what they can do.

There have been negative posts about the LS808's too but it sounds like they have done the trick for you in the past (we've used the LS808's ourselves with some great results).

If they work for you, that's all that matters.  Smile

Jeff
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on December 20, 2007, 10:14:42 am
I got mine used (can't even tell since it was so little) for $1200 a pair.  Bought an iTech 6000 to power them so they get juiced up.  Thanks. Now I don't feel as bad.  Cool
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on December 20, 2007, 10:18:44 am
The 1208's have already been fired up a few times live.  I get more from the pair of them than I did from 4 of the 808's.  They go lower, and my regular club owners and bands said they "feel" the difference sine they actually rattle the building structure.  They do the trick for me and aren't going any where, but you always wonder if you made the right choice (especially after seeing they didn't fair as well as I though they might have) at the shootout
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Dave Rickard on December 20, 2007, 10:23:11 am
Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 08:13

I wouldn't write the LS1208's off.  I think they offered quite a bit of bang for the buck and wouldn't hesitate to hook them up in a live rig to see what they can do.

There have been negative posts about the LS808's too


+1.

I recall one of the attenders commenting that they would use any of the subs at the shootout and be just fine. (rough paraphrase)
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: hiep nguyen on December 20, 2007, 10:44:45 am
what happen to the LA400? I thought someone bring at least 1 to the shootout.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Josh Oswald on December 20, 2007, 10:50:13 am
A few pages back, Even mentions that the contributor bringing the LA400 couldn't make it, so it was scratched from the lineup.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 20, 2007, 10:50:58 am
Hiep Nguyen wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 10:44

what happen to the LA400? I thought someone bring at least 1 to the shootout.


Hey!
That was me that was going shove one in my backseat... but I thought better to not travel from Cleveland with this think in my backseat since we were only going to have one!

I'm sorry! I wish we would have been able to compare 2 of these also!

Phil Lewandowski
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 20, 2007, 12:17:43 pm
Stuart Pendleton wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 10:18

The 1208's have already been fired up a few times live.  I get more from the pair of them than I did from 4 of the 808's.  They go lower, and my regular club owners and bands said they "feel" the difference sine they actually rattle the building structure.  They do the trick for me and aren't going any where, but you always wonder if you made the right choice (especially after seeing they didn't fair as well as I though they might have) at the shootout


Well, Im getting ready to order 4 of these, so that must tell you something. Wink

They were one of the loudest subs there, but did have a little bit of a "sound" to them. I think with a little EQ they can get very rockin'. Hell, for the price, you cant beat them IMO.




Evan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on December 20, 2007, 06:33:44 pm
Phil Lewandowski wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 14:36

Dave Dermont wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 09:10

Mike Butler (media) wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 17:34

 I only question whether, going forward, we can have a proper LAB get-together without go-kart racing.  Laughing


Hey, my new house gig is about a mile from Mohegan Sun at Pocono Downs, a slot parlor & horse track.

Racing reopens March 31. Should we schedule the get-together before or after that date?


Is that In PA? If so I might be able to attend sonething there!

Phil!

Must be, it's the only Poconos I've ever heard of (Wilkes-Barre area).  Laughing

Of course, whenever anyone around my area says Mohegan Sun, we think of the original one in CT (second largest casino in the world).
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Scott Deeter on December 20, 2007, 08:26:02 pm
One question from me Rolling Eyes
At the shootout, did anyone notice the TH-Mini's doing the "Sub Walk-Dance" Razz  like the Growler's have been reported to do?
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Scott Hibbard on December 20, 2007, 08:42:20 pm
Stuart,

My first exposure to the LS1208 was a club installation (perm) and after I EQ'ed/powered them properly (bridged QSC MX3000a's at the time) they had substantial output (emphasis on substantial). So much so that 4 of them outran (very easily) the rest of the PA.

Last year I purchased (6) UCS1B's but did so because I am very much into matching tops/bottoms within a manufacturer's series/line.  Had I purchased Elite tops, you can bet I would have purchased LS1208's.

Enjoy them and let them make you $$$ at the same time.  Look at it this way - you could have done A LOT, LOT WORSE!!

ScottH
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 20, 2007, 09:01:16 pm
Scott Deeter wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 20:26

One question from me Rolling Eyes
At the shootout, did anyone notice the TH-Mini's doing the "Sub Walk-Dance" Razz  like the Growler's have been reported to do?


Nope! They stayed in place just fine.





Evan
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 21, 2007, 07:48:46 am
The minis have recessed rubber feet that just barely stick out of the bottom-so they don't get knocked off easily.  That helps keep them in place.

We also did not hit any of the cabinets what I would consider "hard".

I have not had a chance to play with them really loud to notice, but what I have done has been on a carpeted surface-so that may not count.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jim Duyck on December 21, 2007, 09:25:56 am
FWIW, I picked up a bunch of low-pile berber-type carpet samples from a store cleaning out their back storage... Rolling Eyes ...hey, it wasn't techically in the dumpster... Rolling Eyes ....anyways, we slip those under our Growlers when we center cluster them on their sides in front of a low stage and it's just perfect from keeping them from walking just fine.  and you can make it to where they're not even visable.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Jon Pejtersen on December 21, 2007, 11:15:15 am
Damn..!

Those TH-mini are cute..!  Surprised
Thumbs up for Tom Danley!

6 (3 per side) of these are about the same size as my dual-18's.
http://www.cadaudio.dk/cad218.htm
(Danish Manufactored design, that are the best frontloaded dual-18 I have ever heard)
>Not the "deepest" dual-18 subs, but they are very tight, loud, and thump deep notes to my satisfaction (DJ'ing)  

I do think 3 TH-mini could outperform one CAD-218. >but so does their pricetag to say the least, in the amount of 3 vs 1

But I would love to have a compact flexible system like that. If I should move to the States, those would be highest on my wish-list for subs.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Matt Harris on December 25, 2007, 05:51:39 am
Thanks for doing the shootout guys. I hate the La400s  werent there but otherwise a very cool thread. Any shootouts happening in the southeast i'll be happy to bring my pair of Deuces to.
Title: Re: Maryland subwoofer shootout results!
Post by: Dave Muddiman on December 26, 2007, 02:33:20 am
If this happens again, I'd like to be involved, and can offer a sub for comparison.