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Title: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on September 13, 2006, 06:41:08 pm
Tom Benson is my area rep for the Dolby Lake Processor, and while I was squeezing one of those out of him he asked if I wanted anything else he reps, which happens to include Powersoft. I allowed as to how I might be convinced to take a pair of Digam K10 amplifiers on the road for a while, and he acquiesced.

If you've read the Wedge Fest Wrapup thread in the LAB, you'll know that we had the K10s there for power. On day one we started out using my normal monitor amps, the 500 watt per channel Crest CPX 2600, an amp that's been a real workhorse for me for the last few years. Sadly, when you're trying to get over 140dB out of a wedge, that amp starts to run out of juice around 130dB with most reasonably efficient wedges.

The Powersoft Digam K10, on the other hand, claims to produce 2,000 watts of power into an 8 ohm load, and an eye opening 12,000 watts into 4 ohms bridged. You've heard it said that you need to get 3dB more power to make a significant difference? Well, the K10 offers a whole 6dB more power over what I'm used to at 8 ohms, enough juice to turn most speakers to steam if you're not careful.

What's more impressive is that this amp is only 1U in height and, while a little deeper than your average amp (just under 18"), weighs less than 27lbs (12Kg). In the same 2RU that you'd previously been getting maybe 6 or 7Kw out of a modern switching amp, you can now pack 24,000 watts at a weight cost of just over 50lbs. Long gone are the days of 3RU 300 watt amps weighing 50+ pounds, indeed!

To accomplish this, they obviously need a ton of power reserve built into the amp and, as you can see from this photo from their website, it looks like a solid bank of capacitors and heatsink.
http://www.powersoft.it/files/images/m_120.jpg

After using the amps for the two days of Wedge Fest (and, fortunately, only sacrificing the voice coil of one wedge) I brought them home for a little, um, goofing around and photo taking.

The K10 offers Neutrik combo jack inputs (1/4" or XLR), Speakon outputs, RS-485 and (optional) ethernet control and monitoring, and a universal power factor corrected power supply with a funny CPC connector that must be rated for over 30A. I've just got generic 15A blade plugs wired on the end of my cables for power, which might be a little worrying until this next part... the amp's built in LCD interface with (optional) DSP.
My model doesn't have DSP, but the interface that is there lets you set everything from maximum voltage output (to keep from frying voice coils) to maximum current draw (to keep from tripping breakers) to clip limiters, input gates, input sensitivity, and extensive monitoring of current and voltage, both at the power supply and at the speaker outputs. The unit also has fault and temperature logging built in, plus more than the expected level of fault protection and a nice inrush current limiting feature to keep you from tripping breakers if you turn a bunch of these babies on at once. In short this is a lean, mean, power machine with a well thought out feature set and an extremely easy to use interface.

Here's a few exterior shots of the unit set up on my exclusive testing bench:
http://www.campuspa.com/images/k10/index-Thumbnails/0.jpghttp://www.campuspa.com/images/k10/index-Thumbnails/1.jpg
http://www.campuspa.com/images/k10/index-Thumbnails/2.jpghttp://www.campuspa.com/images/k10/index-Thumbnails/3.jpg

While it performed brilliantly at Wedge Fest, giving us the closest thing to unlimited power I have ever experienced, I'm getting ready to take these two amps out for a very real world test... powering a whole bunch of EAW SB1000 subwoofers for a three-week-long outdoor fair and festival at the Eastern States Exposition in MA. After beating them up for awhile, I'll take a bunch more photos and get right back to y'all!

[edit: Oops, I almost forgot! Here's a link to the manufacturer's product page which, by the way, renders awfully in Safari:  http://pro-audio.powersoft.it/an_series_list.php?use_in=53&a mp;a mp;id_menu=271&obj=12]
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Mac Kerr on September 13, 2006, 07:11:28 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Wed, 13 September 2006 18:41

Tom Benson is my area rep for the Dolby Lake Processor, and while I was squeezing one of those out of him he asked if I wanted anything else he reps, which happens to include Powersoft.
...And Optocore, and PRAM. You left a lot on the table there Bennett!   Laughing

Mac
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Phil LaDue on September 16, 2006, 01:44:46 pm
What kind of power connectors are those?
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on September 16, 2006, 08:36:10 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Wed, 13 September 2006 18:41

...Well, the K10 offers a whole 6dB more power over what I'm used to at 8 ohms, enough juice to turn most speakers to steam if you're not careful....While it performed brilliantly at Wedge Fest, giving us the closest thing to unlimited power I have ever experienced...

...and the closest thing to stupid loud most of us have experienced! Very Happy  That amp is scary! Oh well, too deep for my rack.  Laughing

Have fun at the Big E, Bennett, looks like you'll have plenty of power for it, maybe I'll see you up there and retrieve my pimp cane.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bill Eborn on September 17, 2006, 09:17:58 am
I think that is a propriatary Powersoft connector. I've never seen another quite like it. Can anyone confirm or deny?
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Iain_Macdonald on September 17, 2006, 02:49:37 pm
Bill Eborn wrote on Sun, 17 September 2006 14:17

I think that is a propriatary Powersoft connector. I've never seen another quite like it. Can anyone confirm or deny?


A CPC mains connector. Industrial use version of a MIL type connector. In common usage.

Iain.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Tom Bensen on September 19, 2006, 10:00:01 pm
Hi All,

Thanks Bennett for the kind words regarding Powersoft and for your continued Road Test.  I will be following the thread as you post.  We are all happy to answer any questions any of you may have regarding the technology "under the hood".
The power connector is not proprietary and as Ian pointed out, is readily available.  Amphenol also has them.

Enjoy.

Tom Bensen
VP Sales and Marketing
Powersoft Audio USA, Inc.
tombensen@msn.com
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on September 23, 2006, 04:33:00 pm
As promised, I took the K10s out on the road to handle sub duty at "The Big E", a.k.a. the Eastern States Exposition, one of the top 10 fairs in the United States. They're driving 6 EAW SB1000s (3 each) as the center cluster of a subwoofer system to cover 7,000 screaming country fans three times a weekend. The SB1000s are backing up two clusters of 4 Ramsdell horn loaded single 18" subs powered by Crest Pro 9200s, which are delayed in order to modify the polar pattern of the center cluster to cover the sides of the arena, which is quite wide.

I set up the amps using the front panel controls, letting them know they're each on a 20A breaker and getting their gain matched to the Crest amps (which required a little math, since the Crests are set to 40x gain, while the PowerSofts set their gain in decibels. For future reference: 40x = 32dB). We then powered the whole PA up, walked the arena to make sure that my coverage bet panned out, and left the PA to the headliner for their 8:00 p.m. show.

Hours later Scott, one of the owners of the sound company that had hired me for this event, and I wandered under the stage to check on the K10s. At first glance we thought they might not have been patched in correctly, but then we discovered that even while we were using a good amount of our amps up on deck we had so much headroom left on the Powersofts that the LED ladders weren't even lighting up except on extremely hard kick hits, and even then we were only lighting the first few lights. This is for sub coverage for 7,000 people! "That's sick. Everyone should have these." was the remark from Scott.

So far, so good! I wish I had the DSP and ethernet control options for these amps, but I think that at that point I might have to answer to the United Nations council on nuclear weaponry. We'll see what Lee Ann Womack's engineer has to say tonight.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Scott "Dragon" LaRochelle on September 26, 2006, 10:34:33 pm
Hi Guys, Bennett is not kidding about these things!  When I first saw them I was like " ya ok were going to put these on sb1000's " ? Unbelievable is all I have to say about these things...  

Scott LaRochelle
SCL Sound Systems
Chicopee, MA
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on September 28, 2006, 03:41:09 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Sat, 23 September 2006 16:33

We'll see what Lee Ann Womack's engineer has to say tonight.

I spent a good half hour under the stage talking with George Olson, Lee Ann Womack's monitor engineer. He was incredibly impressed with the Powersoft amps and wasn't quite ready to believe me until he went out front and ran some tracks through the rig... hearing is indeed believing! Looks like they'll do what they promise.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Mike Palmer on September 28, 2006, 05:38:18 pm
Coolness Benett..

I did a demo with George for Leann at the  Mirage in Vegas with Microwedge and introduced him to those amp.s

I think they are hella cool also.

I just purchased some MC-2 Amps for my Microwedge rig.. they are also a VERY nice amp...
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on September 29, 2006, 08:37:08 am
I've found a complaint! The meter response on the front panel is so fast that for most uses, since the amp has so much headroom for transients, it's next to impossible to see how much you're putting out! It took me ten tries to capture this photo, all the rest read like the amp's at idle or maybe putting out 50 watts, and this was in the middle of the last set. My camera has an extremely fast shutter speed... I've taken photos of a wooden piece on a lathe at 3,000 RPM and when they come out it looks as though it's at rest, the grain of the wood is clearly defined... that the indicator digits in this photo are a little blurry for the most significant digits should give you an idea of how fast the display moves.

index.php/fa/5985/0/
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Gareth James on September 29, 2006, 02:46:30 pm
I take it there's no option to alter the rate it tracks output changes. I suppose the ideal way would be to have a peak hold (visually and numerically) as well as an averaged value.

Otherwise looks great!
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on October 02, 2006, 10:15:31 pm
Not that I've seen, which is unfortunate, since this amp will certainly make you want to double check your limiter settings.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Al Zara on October 03, 2006, 10:35:36 am
Hello All!

I too have had a powersoft to play with for a few weeks . Twisted Evil

All that Bennett is saying is right on!!
These amps are simply amazing!!!!!


We, as well ran subs with them, EV MT2 w/ evx180b's to be exact.
Result were unbelievable it blew the doors off of our crest  9001 rack, thats two 9001!
Faster reacting time more power WOW!!!

We also did the impedance drop trick to see what would happen
when the amp was loaded down.
Loaded the poop out of it... at least 1 ohm maybe .5 ohm.
The amp did not even blink it just gave us the hiZ on front panel & just kept on chuggin. No overheat, nothing.

The last thing I wanted to comment on was their efficiency...
the manual said they're 95% efficient...
When I read this I thought, Humm Right - No way.
So how do i test this?

Thanks to Langston Holland I built My version of the Uglybuket tm. ( And yes the Home depot folk really look at you funny when you start measuring the resistance of the heater elements!!

It's the stereo bucket, 3x 7.5 ohm x 2000W loads in parallel, roughly 2.6 Ohm @ 6000W.

Next I fired up one of our vortex6 both channels with pink noise to clip,  Amped the line @ 32-34A.

Now for the powersoft...
First, I could not get it into clip but the display did hit 12KW with the amp probe only showing 24A.
Now as Bennett has pointed out the front display does move very quickly, when I saw the 12KW the amp draw did hit 45A.

As Tom the US Rep informed me that the tests  they have done the amp threw a 30A 120v breaker in clip. and it could draw up to 45A at full tilt.

So now I need to get #2 feeder into my racks!!!Just kidding!

Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on October 04, 2006, 08:50:08 am
index.php/fa/5985/0/

I agree with Gareth about the display needing Peak Hold. But would you want the Zload reading to track vrms/arms/watts such that you know the Zload at the exact moment of highest power output? I'd think you would want to know what your lowest impedance is and that the Zload display should Peak Hold that reading.

-Bink
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on October 04, 2006, 06:09:00 pm
No, I agree that the load calculation should be the minimum and be very slow to react... which is exactly how they seem to have it right now.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Paul Magro on October 24, 2006, 12:21:56 pm
  Bennett let me check out the amps a week or so ago at the expense of a 6 hr drive to Troy, NY!  I loved the ride down Rt 7 in western Vt during fall foilage!
 Anyway, I racked up the amps, first noticing the lack of banana plugs.  Because of this fact I decided to run my Community tops full range.  I did not have time to make a speakon adaptor that I could use to bi-amp my tops.  I then set the voltage limiters to about twice what my tops and subs were rated for.  So about 120V for the subs and 100V for the tops. I don't know if this was the correct way to do things, but  I was short on time to research.  I fired up half my rig in my shop to test things out.  That is 2 Community XLT 46e tops and 2 Dth subs.  I set the sub gain to most sensitivty and the tops three notches below.  I don't remeber the settings right now.
 First off, I have to say the most used terms in power amp advertising.  My rig sounded extremely clean with limitsless headroom!  I have used a wide variety of amps on my rig, but these were definitely the best!  The subs were extremely tight upto the point where they started to fart out.  A lot of other amps seemed to get mushy in the low end when pushed, but the Digam 10 was just coasting along, barely one light flickering!  The same goes for the tops.  I never run my tops full range, so I was a little leary about the sound not being what I was used to in bi-amp mode.  A little eqing to bring out some low mid-meat and I didn't think twice about running full range.
 O.K., so I got my rig tested out to make sure I wouldn't blow anything, and to get some baseline settings on the amps, crossover and eq.  I load up and get to the gig the next day, early.  It is a 250 person club.  It used to be a Corvette museum, now it is a club/50's diner, very cool place and recently renovated to increase the dance floor.  I set up a double stack aside and fire up the rig.  On a very odd note, the night before, while testing the amps, the tops were reading about 5.2 ohm and the subs agout 4.8 ohm, with the ohms dropping as I pushed the volume.  At the club, the amp used on the tops was now stating "unknown Z".  The night before I had one side of the amp loaded and it calculated the load fine, now with both sides running, it would not calculate the load.  I don't know?
 I run my usual tuning music and played with the eq, crossover, etc, and let the rig run for about 4 hrs before the band was to arrive.  I wanted to make sure everything was ok.  I had 2 Digam 10's set to 15A breaker and 2 PLX 1602 (for monitors) on one breaker.  I've never had a problem in the past running the whole rig on one breaker, that's usually 5 amps, PLX or Crest Pro200.  No way to set a distro in the this room!  I pushed the volume up and down to check headroom and such and once again I could get it completely clean up to the point of speaker distortion, just the subs though.
 Band comes and we do a sound check, but I can't seem to get the vocals over the mix.  I changed the amp sensitivity for the tops to one notch below the subs and the system really came alive!!  The Community tops have a built in light bulb protection crap.  I've been on gigs where the ports on the boxes would light up, when really pushing, but throughout the show there was not a hint that the boxes were being over powered.  I was glad considering there was enough juice to send the voice coils into someone's forehead.
 The gig was great with unlimited headroom and clean output.  Once again I have to state that at other times with different amps, as I pushed the system, the sound would change as the amps ran closer to their max.  The Digam 10's responded and sound the same throughout the entire range, from whispering to screaming.
 Final note:  Why no banana plugs?  Different standards in Europe?  The amp failed to calculate the load for some reason on my tops, but the subs were registering fine on the other amp.  I had a problem with the metering.  Like Bennett had said, the bar graph was just way too fast and I wish that the LED ladders on the amp would coincide with the limiter settings.  The amp can put out tremendous ammounts of power, but I don't think I ever went past one LED for the tops and two for the subs.  That really doesn't help me from across the room when checking the LED meters.  I think that if I set the limiter to 100v, then the LED's should react with regards to that scale.  Just a minor gripe, but the LED meters were useless to me otherwise.
 That's my review, I hope it brings up some discussion. Very Happy
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on October 24, 2006, 12:30:43 pm
Paul Magro wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 12:21

Final note:  Why no banana plugs?  Different standards in Europe?

Hey Paul, glad it worked out so well for you!

I believe the reason you don't get banana plugs is because they're a little too close to the size and shape of a european mains connector for comfort... especially when you're selling amps to europe.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Adam Whetham on October 24, 2006, 05:49:45 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 17:30

Paul Magro wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 12:21

Final note:  Why no banana plugs?  Different standards in Europe?

Hey Paul, glad it worked out so well for you!

I believe the reason you don't get banana plugs is because they're a little too close to the size and shape of a european mains connector for comfort... especially when you're selling amps to europe.


Yep when you get some Crown amps now they come with little plastic plugs in the banana slots that you have to pry out. They put those in for protection to make sure nothing like that happens.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on October 24, 2006, 06:27:23 pm
Hmmm does anyone know why all the stage right par-cans are blinking in time with the kick drum?
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Gian P. Portanova on October 26, 2006, 10:35:07 am
Bennett Prescott wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 12:30

Paul Magro wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 12:21

Final note:  Why no banana plugs?  Different standards in Europe?

Hey Paul, glad it worked out so well for you!

I believe the reason you don't get banana plugs is because they're a little too close to the size and shape of a european mains connector for comfort... especially when you're selling amps to europe.


1RU amps?  Is there even room to add binding posts?  Maybe there is an option for Speakon or BP's?

Rear panel space may be limiting to one or the other.  
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Chris Cowley on November 02, 2006, 07:03:16 am
Bennett Prescott wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 17:30

Paul Magro wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 12:21

Final note:  Why no banana plugs?  Different standards in Europe?

Hey Paul, glad it worked out so well for you!

I believe the reason you don't get banana plugs is because they're a little too close to the size and shape of a european mains connector for comfort... especially when you're selling amps to europe.



No, it's just because we don't use them anymore. The only place you see banana plugs in on hi-fi seperates. I haven't seen a banana plug for years.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 02, 2006, 10:09:12 am
Chris Cowley wrote on Thu, 02 November 2006 06:03



No, it's just because we don't use them anymore. The only place you see banana plugs in on hi-fi seperates. I haven't seen a banana plug for years.


The reason you haven't seen them for years is because they were regulated out of use.

The reason given with a wink was potentially dangerous voltages from high power amps, but the popular understanding was mains outlets on the continent were the real threat.  

JR
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on November 10, 2006, 04:03:54 am
What is the street price for those amps?
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on November 10, 2006, 11:13:25 am
I've been seeing around $6,500, but I'm not actually in a position to know.

Perhaps some US rep can post with their contact info for people who'd like to know more? Hint hint? Tom? Anyone?
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 15, 2006, 02:36:58 pm
I could get my hands on them for a short time only. I hope they don't have the same power supply problems their 'ancestors' have. Also I wish they did them in 2RU, but shorter, so they fit in standard racks without having the cabling sticking out at the end of the rack.

Don't forget that there are similar powerful amps (and even more powerful) from other companies too.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Tom Bensen on November 15, 2006, 05:59:45 pm
Hi All,

Thanks for all the chat about Powersoft.  I can confirm the US list is $7998.00 for the K-10.  I am quite sure the "street" price will be $6000.00 (or less).

Tom Bensen
Powersoft Audio US
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Sara Elliott on November 16, 2006, 04:45:40 pm
Well, I guess it is time that I stand up and be known.  Hi everyone - It's me Sara - to some of you known as the Beer and Gear Gal.  Thank you mister Stachowski!
Anyway, I am the Roadtest Coordinator for this forum and thought that it might be useful for me to start posting.  I am hoping that everyone out there that reads the posts is getting some useful information from the gentlemen who are putting the gear through it's paces.  

Manufacturers - I hope that you are getting some useful information from our Road Testers with regards to feedback on what they like and questions on what they may or may-not understand about the product. Manufacturers please feel free to post as a matter a fact I encourage it.  Which is why I am writing this after Tom's post.  Thanks Tom -

Road Testers, if you have questions on the product please ask - so the mystique may be dispelled with the input from the manufacturer. Over and out - I am getting this posting this down - it's fun.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 16, 2006, 10:02:32 pm
Sara Elliott wrote on Thu, 16 November 2006 15:45

Well, I guess it is time that I stand up and be known.  Hi everyone - It's me Sara - to some of you known as the Beer and Gear Gal.  Thank you mister Stachowski!
Anyway, I am the Roadtest Coordinator for this forum and thought that it might be useful for me to start posting.  I am hoping that everyone out there that reads the posts is getting some useful information from the gentlemen who are putting the gear through it's paces.  

Manufacturers - I hope that you are getting some useful information from our Road Testers with regards to feedback on what they like and questions on what they may or may-not understand about the product. Manufacturers please feel free to post as a matter a fact I encourage it.  Which is why I am writing this after Tom's post.  Thanks Tom -

Road Testers, if you have questions on the product please ask - so the mystique may be dispelled with the input from the manufacturer. Over and out - I am getting this posting this down - it's fun.


Hi Sara:

I'd like to road test some of that beer...  Cool

JR
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Sara Elliott on November 16, 2006, 11:09:18 pm
Hi JR, nice to see you responding to my post - I see your words of wisdom often, you're more than welcome to partake of all the Beer that a road test event has available.  Ah, what the heck, if you Road Test some gear and post like a banchi, I will personally make sure that you can road test all the beer you want.
Hope that you guys will not mind my light hearted muse to lighten the threads of "serious" road test business.  
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 16, 2006, 11:57:34 pm
Sara Elliott wrote on Thu, 16 November 2006 22:09

Hi JR, nice to see you responding to my post - I see your words of wisdom often, you're more than welcome to partake of all the Beer that a road test event has available.  Ah, what the heck, if you Road Test some gear and post like a banchi, I will personally make sure that you can road test all the beer you want.
Hope that you guys will not mind my light hearted muse to lighten the threads of "serious" road test business.  


I'm sorry but since my house band (and I mean "house") dispersed around the country I haven't had much call for PA gear in the "house"... In fact my old lead guitar buddy now lives in Benicia, while the drummer was in NC last I heard and bass up in PA somewhere...  

You wouldn't want me testing gear anyhow, I might find things that I would have done differently. Rolling Eyes

I regret I missed the hang at AES but it was not to be this year.

JR

PS: I'm just kidding about the beer. I have actually had LAbees mail me beer after my sundry pleas. That would be akin to carrying "coals to Newcastle" and so not necessary. Of course you are all more than welcome to buy me a beer if we are ever sharing a common barkeep and I'll return the favor.

Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Rich Mullen on November 23, 2006, 12:05:05 pm
Hello Tom,

Good to see you hanging out here. It was nice to have you and Carl by our office and thanks for the knowledge on RF and such. As you may know we did end up buying quite a few K10's to power our new GEO D rig. It's only been out a few times but their performance exceeded even our excellent demo reviews. These amps not only sound excellent, but they have great features. TWO BIG THUMBS UP!

Thanks
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on December 06, 2006, 05:38:14 pm
Hey y'all, I was just poking around this thread and realized I had a few extra photos I'd been meaning to put up. Here's a pair of shots from the A stage at the Big E this fall, the sound company providing was SPL out of western Massachussets, in the capable hands of Bill Forbes and Scott LaRochelle who occasionally post here.

Here you can see the K10s getting nothing more than a 20a breaker each, and powering 6 EAW SB1000s. The amps barely broke a sweat.
http://www.campuspa.com/images/k10/UnderStageK10s.jpg

And to give you an idea of the venue, here's a shot from the side right before load in for Foreigner:
http://www.campuspa.com/images/k10/BigEStageA.jpg
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Lorne Hastings on December 07, 2006, 12:54:27 am
How do these bad boys on mid/high duty?
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on December 07, 2006, 01:09:21 am
I used 'em on a monitor for wedge fest. Sounded great until I blew out the tinsel leads on the woofer.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 12, 2006, 06:13:14 pm
Bennett,
Nice review, great looking and obviously great sounding amps if I'm reading correctly (Let me know because I'm old.). The ability to set the amp for the power available is a great feature. I wish more manufacturers were that forward thinking. Thanks again. Where is the beer stand in those pictures??
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on December 14, 2006, 05:25:39 am
Bob Leonard wrote on Tue, 12 December 2006 18:13

Where is the beer stand in those pictures??

Just to the left, actually, but they only have beer-flavored water, as far as I'm concerned.

The amps are as impressive as you believe... we've got some bench testing scheduled to make sure they'll walk the walk. Right now Gian Portanova has 'em... maybe if I invoke his name he'll tell us what he's been doing with them?
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Sara Elliott on December 15, 2006, 04:25:04 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 04:25

Bob Leonard wrote on Tue, 12 December 2006 18:13

Where is the beer stand in those pictures??

Just to the left, actually, but they only have beer-flavored water, as far as I'm concerned.

The amps are as impressive as you believe... we've got some bench testing scheduled to make sure they'll walk the walk. Right now Gian Portanova has 'em... maybe if I invoke his name he'll tell us what he's been doing with them?


Thank you Bennett - Gian - what have you been up to with those bad boys?  I am sure it has been more than just to power a rig and run Christmas carols through it for the office party and/or power the tree lights.  I would love to hear some perils of wisdom.  
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Gian P. Portanova on December 16, 2006, 12:14:57 am
Sara Elliott wrote on Fri, 15 December 2006 16:25

Thank you Bennett - Gian - what have you been up to with those bad boys?  I am sure it has been more than just to power a rig and run Christmas carols through it for the office party and/or power the tree lights.  I would love to hear some perils of wisdom.  



Hi Sara,

Well, you're close.  I actually bridged the amp, fed a 50Hz sinewave into it, and set it to 240V out.  This allowed me to power my Euro import Christmas paraphernalia.  Makes the TSO show look like a joke!  Even Clark W. Griswold would be jealous.

Now onto its intended use (as claimed by the mfr.).  I was hoping to get some more gigs on it and give a full report, but here are some highlights.

Definitely a capable sub amp.  There is enough voltage swing to take peak clip-limiting out of the equation.  Sound is "tighter", which I think is characteristic of CLASS D amps compared to linear amps (my theory).

A quick bench test verifies that output power is limited by the power supply.  The  max input current setting is 32A (via set-up panel) and this is where the amp stops delivering output power (~1800W at 4ohms with 1KHz rms input).  With the line voltage at 120V, it's around 94% efficient.


>>>more to come...

Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 16, 2006, 10:10:34 am
Gian P. Portanova wrote on Fri, 15 December 2006 23:14


Hi Sara,

Definitely a capable sub amp.  There is enough voltage swing to take peak clip-limiting out of the equation.  Sound is "tighter", which I think is characteristic of CLASS D amps compared to linear amps (my theory).


>>>more to come...




Perhaps you can illuminate us regarding your theory. I recall reading a white paper in the mid '80s claiming class D amps had lower output impedance due to saturated switch output devices which almost sounds plausible until you realize the full PS voltage square wave needs to pass though an output LPF to extract the audio. Practical filters add some series impedance which can be reduced by overall negative feedback, but even how much of that can be applied is limited by the intrinsic delay of the filter.

Properly executed a class D amp can deliver adequate linearity and damping. I suspect bass performance will be more impacted by power supply headroom. If I was pressed to come up with a theory to explain good bass performance in this series I'd look to the switch mode PFC PS.

Merry Christmas,

JR
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on December 16, 2006, 05:14:38 pm
Quote:

...Sound is "tighter"...


Would this observation be measurable as a faster rise time? Just curious.

How much steady state power (24/7/365) can it deliver at 240v in bridge mode? Willing to guess?

-Bink
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Gian P. Portanova on December 18, 2006, 10:17:00 am
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Sat, 16 December 2006 10:10





Perhaps you can illuminate us regarding your theory. I recall reading a white paper in the mid '80s claiming class D amps had lower output impedance due to saturated switch output devices which almost sounds plausible until you realize the full PS voltage square wave needs to pass though an output LPF to extract the audio. Practical filters add some series impedance which can be reduced by overall negative feedback, but even how much of that can be applied is limited by the intrinsic delay of the filter.

Properly executed a class D amp can deliver adequate linearity and damping. I suspect bass performance will be more impacted by power supply headroom. If I was pressed to come up with a theory to explain good bass performance in this series I'd look to the switch mode PFC PS.

Merry Christmas,

JR
[/quote]

Hi JR,

I guess I based my theory during an experiment by connecting a sub woofer directly to CLASS D amp with minimal LPF.  At this point your mention of the white paper (lower impedance) definitely applies.

While a general purpose amp will have a more complex LPF, I think the lower impedance stage benefits are still realized.  

The PSU I beleive contributes much to the sound qualities in amps (PWM or analog).  So that also applies to my thoery!

Happy "Holidays"!


GPP

Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Gian P. Portanova on December 18, 2006, 10:34:09 am
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Sat, 16 December 2006 17:14

Quote:

...Sound is "tighter"...


Would this observation be measurable as a faster rise time? Just curious.

How much steady state power (24/7/365) can it deliver at 240v in bridge mode? Willing to guess?

-Bink


Bink,

Observation is the proper term for that description.  Can it be measured by the rise time?  Not sure if that is the proper measurement for what I'm describing.  It may be measured by the fall time.  Or the "ripple" decay.  I think JR was more accurate in the post above regarding the "damping" characteristics of amplifiers.

The 32A input test was for under a minute.  So short term steady state.  I'll assume that at some point the amp may thermal (trying to reach 24/7/365).  I'll also assume that output power will go up at 240V/32A in.

I'll try out these tests if I get a chance and advise my results!

In response to all that are having "issues" with the LED voltage metering.  My application does not require 200V output swing, so I set it to 100V (2500W at 4 ohms).  Would you believe the LED bar re-calibrates to that setting?  Before I realized this, I was surprised to see any of the LED's flickering.  This amp also gives you enough output for some good power compression.

No drivers damaged yet though.


GPP
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on December 18, 2006, 12:37:29 pm
Quote:

...It may be measured by the fall time.  Or the "ripple" decay...


I like that: "fall time." Perfect.  Cool

-Bink
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 18, 2006, 12:41:12 pm
Gian P. Portanova wrote on Mon, 18 December 2006 09:17


Hi JR,

I guess I based my theory during an experiment by connecting a sub woofer directly to CLASS D amp with minimal LPF.  At this point your mention of the white paper (lower impedance) definitely applies.

While a general purpose amp will have a more complex LPF, I think the lower impedance stage benefits are still realized.  

The PSU I beleive contributes much to the sound qualities in amps (PWM or analog).  So that also applies to my thoery!

Happy "Holidays"!


GPP




Indeed a loudspeaker driver can integrate a PWM output to continuous audio. I even did this on the bench with a couple watt class D experiment back in '70s, I don't have a feel for how this would scale to higher power levels. Perhaps in a powered cabinet where you can specify a driver with this in mind, shield the box and maybe even the speaker cone.

Again I don't know if this is practical. I've kicked the idea around for years in the context of making a cheap portable amp/pa with very good battery life. Never made much headway on the cost effectiveness aspect due to RFI considerations.

Even with the low output impedance of a saturated switch I suspect the characteristics of the power supply, that that switch is clamping the speaker to hard matters more. In a class D amp any power supply artifacts are injected directly into open loop audio (reduced by overall negative feedback). Of course without the output smoothing filter, any negative feedback signal will need to be conditioned somehow or the amp must run open loop.  

IMO damping factor is mis identified and over rated as audibly significant beyond some nominal amount.

JR    
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Jens Droessler on December 19, 2006, 07:05:15 pm
The K10 is a fullrange amp, not limited to bass. So the integrated lowpass filter that will make an audio signal out of the PWM output of the actual amp will have to be a very complex one. The requirements are high: It mustn't affect the higher frequency range, it has to be of low impedance AND it has to work with ALL specified loads, as in 16 ohms, 8 ohms, 4 ohms, 2 ohms AND also with highly reactive loads. That is not a simple thing. Some of the requirements can't be met that easily.

Just to clarify if there are any doubts: JR wasn't talking about an applied lowpass filter to keep highs from the subwoofers (at least I think Smile .

Another thing about this amplifier: I already said the same thing about the LAB Gruppen fP+ 13000. If you use the high output power capabilities just for the comfort of having that much headroom you'll be fine. BUT: If you use the amp to drive a lot of speakers that can actually take the power without problems for a longer period, the PSU will limit the amplifier. That means you can't use the full output capability on 'low crest signals'. I'm not bashing the amp, I'm just informing you on something that somehow is a missconception nowadays: The amp can't create additional power. If the PSU is limited to 30A current draw at 115V, it can't give more power than that (RMS!). Don't be scared or pissed. The higher peaks possible are what makes these amps better than smaller amps...
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Langston Holland on December 22, 2006, 03:12:29 am
Jens wrote on Tue, 19 December 2006:

...it has to work with ALL specified loads, as in 16 ohms, 8 ohms, 4 ohms, 2 ohms AND also with highly reactive loads.


Looks to me like it just might do that. I'm not allowed to remember where I got these measurements (I didn't do them), but they were sent to me a while ago after I posted my I-Tech measurements. They are effectively identical to my I-T8000 results and add a couple of other amps in comparison. Only resistive loads were used. I believe I'm going to be able to demo the K10 in this thread before long and I'll measure it using the same resistive and reactive loads I placed on the I-Tech.

index.php/fa/7032/0/
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Gareth James on December 22, 2006, 08:00:58 am
Wow, bearing in mind that's just resistives loads those are some pretty revealing graphs Rev L  Shocked

The Lab fP isn't so bad being 2dB down at 20khz/2ohm load but >5dB on the Itech... Confused

Looking forward to seeing how reactive loads alter the playing field. Any chance you might be able to get your hands on the new FP+ Lab amps? Would be interesting to see if there is much difference with the new model.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Jens Droessler on December 23, 2006, 01:04:26 pm
@ Langston: Let's say it is supposed to..... It won't and it can't, but if it was a very simple filter the differences would be worse by far.

The LAB fP is not a good comparison, as it (depending on the way you look at the design) has an active, dynamical filter circuit.

The K10 obviously has a lp filter of pretty high order, making me think about phase issues up there. Do you have some phase measurements too?

@ Bink:

Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Sat, 16 December 2006 22:14

Quote:

...Sound is "tighter"...


Would this observation be measurable as a faster rise time? Just curious.
I'm not the original poster of your quote, but I dare to answer anyways.
I don't think so. You can calculate, how fast of a rise time is needed for that power in bass range. I don't think that there is ANY current design that would be limited by the rise time/slew rate in bass range. There WOULD be limitations with SOME designs in HF range, but OTOH no one needs 2x5kW at HF from one amp, so the demands up there aren't that high.

Quote:

How much steady state power (24/7/365) can it deliver at 240v in bridge mode? Willing to guess?

I did not measure the K10 for that, but I can tell from the old DigAm7000 (which couldn't be bridged) that it would do 2x500W continous at any load (not below 2 ohms!) 24/7. That's enough to keep up the rated power for typical rock music, but not with 'electronic music' (I know that from experience). The K-series will have a similar design, allowing maybe 800-1000W per channel at any load. That means they'd have to step down the output power if the RMS would be too high for a too long time.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Peter Morris on January 16, 2007, 06:33:44 pm
Yes the sound is tighter – it sounds tighter believe it or not. - but it’s nothing to do with rise time or anything like that.   It’s about how the feed back loop works and the ability of the amp to return the speaker’s cone to its centre position.

If you watch the cone of a speaker driven by a Powersoft it seems to move less for the same output compared to other amps.  


Peter
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound on June 12, 2007, 08:22:35 pm
Hi Bennett,

How are things going?

Just curious, are the Powersoft Digam K10's still making the rounds?  If we could get our hands on a pair soon, I would like to try them out.

Thank you,

Jeff
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Bennett Prescott on June 12, 2007, 09:26:31 pm
They've been out of my hands for a while, as far as I know the road test has ended and they're back at the factory. Maybe we'll get some K20s at some point, but I've heard nothing new from Sara.
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Josh Evans on June 14, 2007, 02:20:03 am


Im really skeptical about the whole 12,000 watts 96% efficient yadayada yada.

Could some one please just send pink noise turned up to 11 and measure the output with an RMS voltmeter?

Its really easy to hit 12,000 watts if one uses a VERY short burst rather than a steady source.

best-

Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Phillip_Graham on June 14, 2007, 09:36:17 am
Josh Evans wrote on Thu, 14 June 2007 02:20



Im really skeptical about the whole 12,000 watts 96% efficient yadayada yada.

Could some one please just send pink noise turned up to 11 and measure the output with an RMS voltmeter?

Its really easy to hit 12,000 watts if one uses a VERY short burst rather than a steady source.

best-




See my PM.

The reality, of course, is that all of these amps throttle after a period of time.  The rather detailed "shootout" data I have seen in fact measures this throttling with time for the DIGAM, and other amplifiers.  The K10 comes out either on top, or second from the top of that heap.

I was a long time skeptic of their product, until I saw all this data.  It now makes me really want to try it, because the bench performance is excellent!
Title: Re: Powersoft Digam K10
Post by: Jens Droessler on June 15, 2007, 05:39:06 pm
What do you mean by 'all these amps'? There are amps out there in the power output class of the K10 not throttling output down. Amps that actually can work with tremendous amounts of current from the mains..... So if you meant 'all amps in this power output league', that would be wrong.