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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => Road Test FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: Mark Herman on April 29, 2006, 08:36:30 pm

Title: TT24
Post by: Mark Herman on April 29, 2006, 08:36:30 pm
ProSoundWeb is introducing a new twist in the forum with ROAD TEST. We have a new Mackie TT24 mixing console to experiment with and have given it out to be used by someone who has never mixed on one. Veteran audio mixer and journalist Mark Frink had it shipped to him and placed the TT24 in a local Portland, OR, venue to see what would happen and how it will perform in a real live environment. Mark Frink has never used the TT24 or read the manual.

Steve Beatty is our designated field tester and he will be posting his thoughts and experiences as they unfold. Mark Frink is our guest VIP that will periodically weigh in with comments and assist Steve if needed.  Steve is a working audio guy and appears to have a pretty good grasp of things from what we can tell.

When the inevitable question arises that only the factory can answer, we have Mackie’s engineering representative Gilbert Perales available to help Steve Beatty get through any major technical uncertainty.

You may also see periodic updates from ProSoundWeb.

We invite all of you to participate in Steve’s quest to learn the Mackie TT24.  The interesting part will be the interaction between Steve the end-user, Gilbert the manufacturer, Mark the veteran VIP, ProSoundWeb and all of you who post and lurk.

This thread is unique, where a specific user, potential operators, TT24 owners and the manufacturer can have a place to discuss any and all issues surrounding the Mackie TT24. It is our goal to have a vibrant discussion between users of the TT24 and our thread moderators.

None of us have any idea what the result will be…
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Mark Frink on April 29, 2006, 08:37:57 pm
For reasons that now elude me I have agreed to take delivery of a Mackie TT24 digital mixing console and find a home for it in order to do a real life ROAD TEST for ProSoundWeb.  In addition I am to find some unsuspecting audio guy and help teach him all about this model I know very little about. Instantly I misplaced the manual and had to do some quick research to get somewhat familiar with the mysterious TT24.

Overview: Introduced a year ago, at the 2004 NSCA show, the TT24 is Mackie’s first digital live sound console, designed from the beginning as a mixer intended primarily for sound reinforcement. The ‘tt’ stands for two-touch; meaning the control of any parameter should only be two touches away. Its price and features are aimed at mid-level live sound operators who are frustrated at digital consoles whose primary application is recording. However, the TT24 has three ADAT optical ports for its 24 mic channels so it easily doubles as a 24-channel recording interface.

Physical: At 71 pounds, it’s a third lighter than a comparably priced analog desk, like a 24-channel GL4000, and it’s also 25% smaller. The desk is about 3 feet wide, not counting the pair of sturdy handles on each end, and about 2 feet deep. The slightly angled fader deck on the front has 24 motorized faders, plus 5 more in the right-hand master section. Each fader has 3 buttons – solo, select and mute – plus a rotary encoder, called a V Pot. Above the fader deck are 24 analog pots for the 24 mic pre-amp gain controls, and on the right is the Quick Mix area: a dozen rotary encoders that map to controls that are displayed on an angled black and white touch screen, with buttons that call the several displays for the selected channels, plus scene and utility buttons.

Features: The console has 24 microphone inputs with four-band EQ, gate and compressor. These XLR inputs have individual phantom power, a line/pad switch, an analog pot for the pre-amp with 0 to 60 dB of gain, separate TRS line input jack and single-jack TRS pre-digital insert point. Additionally there are eight line inputs that are fully featured minus a mic pre, plus a two-track return, a talkback mic input and two-channel digital I/O

The TT24 has 12 auxiliary sends, with the last four default-patched to the mono inputs of 4 internal stereo effects. Every output has quasi-six-band EQ: two parametric, two adjustable shelves, and two feedback “kill filters,” which are swept notches that can be set for -6, -12, or -18 dB by pushing on their encoder. The three main outputs, LCR or LR/Mono, also have a graphic equalizer.

The control surface has 29 motorized faders, 24 grouped together, and five more at the right end with the master controls. Over these are V-Pot controls: rotary encoders surrounded by a ring of LEDs to indicate position. They are used for Pan, Trim, HPF and aux sends (and pan for stereo linked auxes) and as signal meters.

The main control ‘Turbo Touch’ section has a dozen small rotary encoders of its own that work with a 5-inch black-and-white touch-screen and eight function buttons for quick access to screens for EQ, Dynamics, Group/Aux assignments, Aux masters, Snapshots, FX control and Matrix.

The eight groups can be chosen to be VCA, mono or stereo groups. There are a total of ten channels of assignable compression and EQ processing for any audio subgroups, so if they’re all stereo, you’ll run out after the first five.

Matrix Plus turns the eight subgroup XLR outputs into an 11 x 8 matrix with delay to 600ms in addition to the quasi six-band EQ. The Plus refers to the fact that each of the sub-group inputs can be reassigned to any of the other inputs or returns, making it possible to create additional, though somewhat limited sub-mixes beyond the 8 groups or 12 auxes.

I’m bringing this console into Mississippi Studios (www.mississippistudios.com); a small venue that’s been running one or two monitor mixes from their 16-channel Alesis mixer for the last couple years. Since they’re using self-powered wedges they’ll immediately be able to run all four wedges on separate mixes. Owner Jim Brunberg and Sound Engineer Steve Beatty will help us evaluate the console in use there.

(Please note: I did not place that VIP avatar in my profile. It’s Herman’s idea.)
Title: TT24
Post by: Steve Beatty on April 29, 2006, 08:41:31 pm
Mississippi Studios, in Portland, Oregon, is one of the most unique music facilities in the country. Besides an upstairs recording studio, equipped with an incredible array of pre-amps, a complete ProTools HD system with a Control 24 DigiDesign console and an Otari MX-80 two-inch tape machine, there is a beautiful downstairs live performance venue. The warm and inviting room is painted a deep shade of red, with Persian-style rugs covering the entire floor and stage. Seating space is divided between two levels, with the stage being on the lower portion. Church pews (with cushions!), old theater seats, and comfortable high-backed stools make up most of the seating for our one hundred-person capacity.

Live sound reinforcement gear includes a Meyer CQ-1 PA system and a full complement of Audix microphones.

Because space is so limited in our facility, built on the site of an old church, I was thrilled to find out that a Mackie TT24 would be arriving for a trial run. The possibility of removing all the rack mounted gear occupying valuable real estate, in favor of a single desk with onboard dynamics, effects, and equalizers warranted an immediate testing.
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Mark Frink on April 29, 2006, 08:48:01 pm
Hi Steve,
Thanks for taking a look at the Mackie TT24 digital live sound mixer. Initially there is usually some resistance to the idea of moving from an analog mixer over to digital, and that’s normal, not just for audio, but also in any technical field. I wouldn’t suggest this console unless I thought it would work well for your small venue, have a lot of cool and useful features, and be backed up by support from the manufacturer.

Though there have been a range of compact digital recording consoles that are serviceable for sound reinforcement, they’ve left sound guys wanting a mid-format digital desk better designed for live sound work. UPS dropped off a large package from Mackie the other day, so I checked it over to make sure it’s working before leaving it for you at the venue.
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Steve Beatty on April 29, 2006, 09:04:06 pm
The TT24 has arrived. The four sturdy side-mounted handles allowed studio owner Jim Brunberg and myself to move the Mackie easily into position on top of a single 16-space rack.

After setting up a Whirlwind sixteen-channel microphone splitter at the front of house position and patching the console in parallel to our existing Alesis console, I employed my usual routine with a new piece of gear. Plugged it in, and tried to make it work – no help from the manual, yet. Watching the pastel-hued lights flash their welcome to me, seeing the faders fly, and checking out the display screen, I instantly felt comfortable behind the desk.

While I ran my hands over the console, touching all the pots, faders, and buttons (as well as the screen) one word came to mind - architecture. The first impression I got from the TT24 was that it reminded me of a high-tech drafting table. Mackie had done a great job in the design of this digital console. The logical placement of key controls made my first voyage with the TT24 instantly engaging.

The Turbo Touch section, and it’s functions as Auxiliary Masters, as well as dynamics, effects, and equalizer editing, made themselves instantly apparent, and very user-friendly, at the first cursory glance.

Within five minutes, I had a mock-up mix titled and saved in one of the 99 snapshots, instantly recallable. This would prove invaluable when saving different master EQ curves, based on the vocal microphone model being used on any given night, easily designed with the 6 function parametric equalizer assigned to all of the master outputs on the TT24. Mackie added two unique “ Kill Band “ features, very helpful in eliminating monitor feedback quickly. Mississippi Studios runs the monitors from the FOH position, so a fast reaction is necessary when feedback occurs. Again, designing snapshots based on the vocal microphone being used allowed for a strong sense of security in monitor world.  Being able to add the onboard compression on the auxiliary sends made all the difference in the world in our primarily acoustic instrument venue. The twelve auxiliary mixes on the TT24 provided endless flexibility and control over the maximum of four monitor mixes we use, while still employing the four onboard effects units defaulted to sends 9-12.

While prepping for the show that night, I was informed that the band (Trespassers William) travels with a sound engineer. This fact allowed me the best opportunity to test the TT24 in a real time situation, without my experimentation to affect the show. Since the Mackie was hooked up to our microphone splitter at front-of-house, I would simply mix to a recorder, while getting to try the console’s every feature.

Setting up a blank snapshot, I received the input list from the band. This was not going to be a typical Mississippi Studios show. Drum kit, electronics, many keyboards, bass synthesizer, guitars and vocals filled our sixteen-channel snake to its capacity.

During sound check, navigation on the TT24 quickly became easier and easier. Calling up multiple dynamics on the same channels, thanks to the eponymous “ two-touch “ system, and manipulating the parameters of these compressors, expanders, and gates was crystal clear and very effective in my headphones.

My finding with the Virtual Pots on each channel was that the functions of High Pass, Trim, Pan, and Channel Meters provided the appropriate visuals in a dark setting. After stumbling a bit with the V-Pots, I found the V-Pot speed control in the Utility Menu, set it to FAST, and had no further issues. During the sound check, I quickly figured out that the High Pass Filters would be my display of choice.

Settling in with the console now, I looked round for features not yet tried. Typical tongue-in-cheek Mackie humor showed up in the form of the “ FAT “ button atop the control buttons alongside the Turbo Touch controllers. Pushing the FAT button, I was shown a comprehensive overview of any individual channel or send I selected. Right there on one screen display, I was able to check gain, dynamics, auxiliary sends, equalizer, and pan – the works. This was getting good.

Confidence assured, I hooked up a TCElectronic Finalizer 96K to the AES/EBU output of the TT24. Finding the Digital Output section was a breeze, and within seconds I had a 96K input to the Finalizer. A full set of digital outputs, including three fully assignable light pipe outputs (inputs as well) made my mouth water thinking about the multi-tracking possibilities.

Venturing further, I decided to give the TT24 Control software a whirl on my laptop. Hooking up the included USB cable, loading the software, and immediately gaining control of the entire board in full color on my computer could not have gone any smoother. Within minutes, I was showing my co-workers the lightning fast response of the software. Most impressive were the equalizer and dynamic displays. Using the click-and-drag method for all parameters of these processing devices removed the most dreaded part of many digital consoles – accessing the fine-tuning parameters of your mix quickly and efficiently.

Doors were scheduled to open in twenty minutes.
Title: TT24
Post by: Bennett Prescott on May 01, 2006, 10:18:33 pm
Y'all,

I just had an extremely informative chat on the phone with Mark.

Here's what's really going on: The Road Test forum will be a separate forum from the ones we currently know and love. It is not an arena for manufacturers to bribe big names in the audio business into spewing fluffy reviews out their proverbial rears. It is unfortunate that the TT24 review appeared that way, but that is due to a number of factors, not the least of which is that it's the first of its kind and Steve Beatty is used to mixing on a lot less, so isn't coming at this from the LAB-level perspective.

What Mark is really trying to do is get meaningful, near-real-time, un-glossed-over reviews about products that have a lot of interest in the marketplace but not a lot of exposure. He wants to try an use his clout as president of Huge Universe to get manufacturers to send products to people the pro audio community respects for a real hands on review. Everyone wins in this case, since the manufacturer gets feedback and exposure, and the LAB gets a meaningful review. The manufacturers will not be allowed to edit content, and hopefully there will be a meaningful discussion of features and impressions started so that LABsters can get their points of interest covered by whomever has the product being reviewed.

Hope that clears things up a bit.
Title: Re: ROAD TEST: New Forum
Post by: Ken Freeman on May 02, 2006, 02:46:00 am
Mark Herman wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 17:41


Our intention is to create a completely new Road Test forum that is separate from the LAB but significantly different than the existing Product Reviews forum. We are looking for constructive viewpoints and welcome creative ideas to make it work. It has a lot of potential and it will be interesting to see how it all pans out.



This I look forward too.  Let me know how I can help.

Ken
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Steve Beatty on May 02, 2006, 02:00:19 pm
Hi everyone:

There has been a call for me to establish some level of credential/ credibility in order for this discussion to seem authentic.

I do not work for anyone besides Mississippi Studios and myself ( not Mackie ). I own a company known as Real Image Recording, and mix FOH for several national and international touring acts. I have been doing so for fourteen years. One of the releases - RL Burnside, Burnside on Burnside - I recorded was nominated for a Grammy a few years ago.

I also mix at the small live venue/ recording studio ( Mississippi Studios ) in Portland mentioned in the first part of the tt24 review. This space is a wonderful combination space for new gear, top-shelf clientele, and high-end recording. We strive for the highest possible production value in a 100-person room.

Finally, here is some more info about me:

Article: http://www.jambase.com/headsup.asp?storyID=4708
Website: www.realimagerecording.com
Please see my client list @ http://realimagerecording.com/bands_recorded.aspx

Part two of the tt24 review coming right up... thank you all for helping move this new chapter forward in a way that delivers the authenticity and credibility to which you have become accustomed.
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Steve Beatty on May 02, 2006, 03:00:50 pm
Wow- doors opened, and I have a new digital console up and running in under an hour. Fifty or so people have come through the door and grabbed the best seats.

My soundcheck recording reveals that while I have gain structure correct, there is a lot of individual channel fine-tuning and overall mix polishing to do yet.

Trespassers William is a band from Seattle. Similar bands are the Cowboy Junkies, Cocteau Twins, or Mazzy Star. Female lead vocals sung in a distant, ethereal way, over slow drum beats, and dark, reverb-laden guitars and keys.

In my efforts to create a recording mix on the tt24, my happiness and self-satisfaction over getting the console up and running came to a crashing halt. As the lead singer Anna-Lynne began her haunting, breathy vocals, I applied the combination of cathedral-reverb and 400ms delay that I had designed between soundcheck and show, using the tt24's internal effects engines.

An ear-splitting burst of digital feedback erupted from my headphones as I immediately realized that my routing was incorrect. Though I knew WHAT was wrong, I struggled to find WHERE it was misassigned. Obviously, I simply turned down the send and the howling went away, but the tt24 was not revelaing it's secrets very easily.

I searched through the AUX MODE pages, then the Turbo Touch section containing the AUX masters, then the effects returns. Here was the problem: my effects returns were assigned to the same faders, but different pages, as some of the channels that I was applying the effects to. So, with one missed page switch, I had managed to loop my effects into themselves.

My hopes of this being a console that guest engineers wouldn't mind using without a complete tutorial took a severe blow. One burst of the horrendous feedback loop I had created while the console was mixing FOH would be very embarrassing, and harm Mississippi Studio's reputation of flawless live sound.

To top it off, the owner of the studio, whose main concern was that the flying faders and bright lights would distract the customers in our tiny venue was watching me struggle with figuring the routing out, and undoing my mistake. Let's face it - when a digital console's faders are zooming up and down several times in a row, people notice...and they watch until the faders stop.

The tt24 and I still have a ways to go...
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Andy Peters on May 02, 2006, 03:13:29 pm
Steve Beatty wrote on Tue, 02 May 2006 12:00

In my efforts to create a recording mix on the tt24, my happiness and self-satisfaction over getting the console up and running came to a crashing halt.


Why are you paying attention to the recording mix when you're supposed to be mixing for the house?

-a
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Steve Beatty on May 02, 2006, 03:28:13 pm
Hi there-

If you read the first post completely, you will see that I mention that the band has their own engineer mixing FOH for the show !! I took advantage of this opportunity to create the recording mix on the tt24 so that we may try out the console without " hurting anyone " !! Very Happy

Steve
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on May 02, 2006, 04:37:03 pm
Steve Beatty wrote on Tue, 02 May 2006 12:28

...I took advantage of this opportunity to create the recording mix on the tt24 so that we may try out the console without " hurting anyone " !! Very Happy

Steve


Except yourself! Ouch!  Shocked

Since this is a recording gig you're using the TT24 in such a way as to highlight its preamps, compression, reverb and i/o clarity. I already know from experience the default compression is sweet and uncolored and the preamps happily neutral-sounding. Do you think you'll be trying any crunchy/gritty/colored compression techniques? Regarding reverb: I'm curious to find out what you think of the built-in selections and how useful you find them. I never used the 'verb with headphones on a recording--I just know that the patches do what they say they do with respect to sound in a live venue.

-Bink
Title: Re: Road Test
Post by: Andy Peters on May 02, 2006, 04:38:49 pm
Steve Beatty wrote on Tue, 02 May 2006 12:28

If you read the first post completely, you will see that I mention that the band has their own engineer mixing FOH for the show !! I took advantage of this opportunity to create the recording mix on the tt24 so that we may try out the console without " hurting anyone " !! Very Happy


Sorry!  That little detail got lost in all the mishegass about the whole review concept.

-a
Title: TT24
Post by: Kele Moore on May 03, 2006, 05:27:38 pm
I find it odd that the band didn't soundcheck.  If the intent of the reviewer is to see if the board could be picked up quickly by a visiting engineer, then why no sound check?  I know if I come into a venue with a board I'm not familiar with, I take advantage of soundcheck to familiarize myself.  I know his issue with feedback could have been avoided with a proper soundcheck.  Was the intent to see if the board could be run'and'gunned?  
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Steve Beatty on May 03, 2006, 10:55:29 pm
Please re-read the original post. It clearly states that soundcheck went well !!
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Kele Moore on May 03, 2006, 11:32:47 pm
Check.  Missed that little tidbit.  *adjusts blinders*
Title: Re: Road Test
Post by: Steve Beatty on May 04, 2006, 01:47:30 am
During the break between sets, the BE asked me to show hin around the console. Though I had a relatively short, ( and a little frantic ) time with it, I was able to get him moving through the console's features in under ten minutes. At which point, I asked him to help me modify the internal effects on the tt24 to similar parameters that he was using on the dual engine TC M1 he was using for the lead singer's vocal effect.

As I mentioned before, I had set up a cathedral-type reverb, and a 400 ms delay with 30% feedback. He quickly moved through the easily found effects parameters on the Mackie, and lengthened the pre-delay, shortend the length, and most importantly, EQ'd the delay to provide a similar sound as the old " telephone " effect. Matching these details to my existing mix proved invaluable.

I had another few minutes to evaluate my first set mix on my headphones ( Sony 9506 , and was pleasantly surprised. The great mix isn't what grabbed me though, it was the total lack of noise. Trespassers William plays incredibly quiet on stage, and I had pre-amps running fairly hot. Even between songs, there was no noise, no hiss, no air - no nothing. These obviously were not the old 1604 pre's !!

My first thought on this was that the switch from the global phantom switch on many Mackie models to the individual 48v channel switches may have helped in this arena, but I can't say for sure - but it was silent.

I made a punch list of several compressor and EQ settings that could help the mix, and jumped right in when the music began. Using my HP laptop, hooked to the USB bus on the tt24 gave me the full-color clarity and definition necessary to make the precise adjustments I had noted. The tt24's software offers the user a GREAT click-and-drag 4 band parametric per channel. Changes could be made quickly, and the visual of the EQ curve being altered, while I listened in the headphones provided me with one of the unexpected benefits of using a digital console.

The settings of the compressors and gates offered me both adjustable virtual dials, as well as a very cool linear graph with different icons colored differently for threshold, ratio, and release. Again, the console responded quickly, and effectively.

I don't know that I would want to mix a large show in this fashion without a comprehensive soundcheck, as it certainly more time-consuming than grabbing a knob in the analog world, but the visuals provided an intuitive and truthful display of what was going on with each dynamics processor.

Satisfied with my changes, I scrolled over all the channels in the " Overview " mode, and saw mini- displays of everything going on with each channel, including a horizontal bar graph of all my aux sends - vital when I would be using the console to mix monitors from FOH in two nights !!

Back to the recording. I use a TC Electronic Finalizer 96K to process all my recordings - have for years. The TC was hooked up to the 96K AES output of the Mackie. Instantly, by looking at the meters of the TC, I could tell that the changes made to the tt24's channels were driving the entire mix better, and indeed, it did sound better in the cans.

What I found troubling however, was my inability to label the channels on my laptop. ( Gil, did I miss something? ) Instead of " CHANNEL 3 " - I really wanted to see " HI-HAT ", but again, I may have missed the edit function somewhere...

Also, I dream of being able to set up scenes for bands on long plane flights, while saving them on my laptop. Did I miss that part of the software as well?

I have a track or two from the show that the band would like to release - would everyone like to hear them?

We have a show with the prestigious singer-songwriter Ellis Paul in two days. I will be using the tt24 to mix the FOH, so stay tuned.
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Dave Stevens on May 04, 2006, 03:20:57 am
Steve Beatty wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 22:47

I don't know that I would want to mix a large show in this fashion without a comprehensive soundcheck, as it certainly more time-consuming than grabbing a knob in the analog world,


That's something that's common to new users of surfaces.  Once you get more familiar many people find it faster to use a smaller surface than a larger console.  It's easier for me at this point to hop around on a D1 than it is something large frame like an H3k or XL4.  When the form factors are between something like a Venice and the TT, the differences aren't so apparent but on a large frame console the difference can be pretty apparent.  The other side of the coin is that without some sort of overview screen, some people aren't comfortable  with layers and SEL buttons.

As you work with surfaces more you'll get used to it and it won't be so daunting.

Dave
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Alexandre Richer on May 04, 2006, 03:26:30 am
Quote:

My first thought on this was that the switch from the global phantom switch on many Mackie models to the individual 48v channel switches may have helped in this arena, but I can't say for sure - but it was silent.


Unlikely:  http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/mixers/noise_console s.cfm

You mention the software. have you used Yamaha's Studio Manager? And if so, how does it compare to the Mackie software? I don't think Mackie had the software available when Bink did his review, but I could be wrong.

On edit, er, oops, I forget you're new to this whole digital console business.. but what about other users of the tt24?
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on May 04, 2006, 10:27:05 am
Alexandre Richer wrote on Thu, 04 May 2006 02:26


Unlikely:   http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/mixers/noise_console s.cfm

You mention the software. have you used Yamaha's Studio Manager? And if so, how does it compare to the Mackie software? I don't think Mackie had the software available when Bink did his review, but I could be wrong.

On edit, er, oops, I forget you're new to this whole digital console business.. but what about other users of the tt24?


Wow, it's been a few years since I wrote that... Still holds water. I was a little uncomfortable to see where somebody had cut in a more recent product reference (which is since obsolete).

Agreed, the phantom power is not likely to explain apparent noise floor. Digital consoles will still have most of the noise components of an analog console with one exception. There will not be a noise contribution from a summing bus combining amplifier although you will still experience the noise buildup from combining multiple channel noise floors incoherently.

In a digital console I would be very tempted to apply some mild noise gating (or downward expansion) at every channel. This could be done pretty transparently and would make the quiet parts quieter if only the channels contributing signal are contributing noise.

This sounds like a good question to answer by somebody who actually knows, namely one of the product's designers.  

JR

Title: Re: Road Test
Post by: Rodd Lowell on May 05, 2006, 11:02:30 am
Steve Beatty wrote on Thu, 04 May 2006 06:47


I have a track or two from the show that the band would like to release - would everyone like to hear them?


Sure!
Title: Re: ROAD TEST
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on May 05, 2006, 11:14:04 am
Quote:

...You mention the software. have you used Yamaha's Studio Manager? And if so, how does it compare to the Mackie software? I don't think Mackie had the software available when Bink did his review, but I could be wrong...


Every show I've done on a TT24 included having my laptop there with the TT Control Application. The difference between it and Yamaha's Studio Manager? They both do the job nicely but they're laid out differently. I wouldn't say one control app is better than the other. They each follow the character of their mixer architecture. For instance, there are no matrix master on/off or mute switches on the TT Control App simply because there are none on the surface.

-Bink
Title: Re: Road Test
Post by: John Boudreau on May 06, 2006, 01:08:00 am
Gil is not available and I just finally caught up on this post after all that has "gone down" this week.

So i'll simply answer the questions posed.  Channel naming will not be available until the next major upgrade.  We just released a big bug fix build two weeks ago and the next build will support the new 32x32 snake box and Lake processor card.  so your looking at fall/winter for new base feature upgrades but naming is near the top of the list.

off line editing will unfortunately not be available for the tt control app.  it would require a major core code redesign.  Sorry.

thx - i'll keep better tabs on this road test now that i know where it is
johnb
Title: Re: Road Test
Post by: Mac Kerr on May 06, 2006, 09:19:33 am
John Boudreau wrote on Sat, 06 May 2006 01:08

off line editing will unfortunately not be available for the tt control app.  it would require a major core code redesign.  Sorry.
John, I hope you know now what a big deal the offline editing is, and have made it possible on the umx.96.  Cool

Keep up the good work.

Mac
Title: Re: Road Test
Post by: Dave Stevens on May 07, 2006, 12:26:51 am
Mac Kerr wrote on Sat, 06 May 2006 06:19

John, I hope you know now what a big deal the offline editing is, and have made it possible on the umx.96.


Potentially offline editing could be good but I haven't really seen an implementation on any surface that for me isn't better than spending an extra little bit with a surface and a computer at the gig or in the shop rather than on a plane or a bus somewhere.

It's particularly problematic when I'm doing fly dates or festivals and coming into a surface with a one off situation an my libs and settings may or may not be compatable with what's happening at the gig. Sure that can be advanced, planned for and hopefully all will work out but I can do some pretty deep configs with a surface alone in less time than it will take to plan to integrate whatever config I edit offline or have on my key.

I think the key to this is being able to be as portable and as granular as possible when dealing with the different libs.  If I'm coming into a one off and it's just me, I can wipe the desk with my config and it's not a big deal.  However, if I have to integrate it into something like a master festival config or a house config that has other things happening that I can't displace or disturb, it's another story.

Dave
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Mike Yates on May 07, 2006, 06:11:28 am
Mr Perales,

This may be a bit off topic and please forgive and forum moderator please feel free to move me if it is but, I am considering switching from analog to digital mixing and the TT24 is one of the consoles I have narrowed my search towards purchasing.  Frankly, terms and concepts such as latency, clocking, light pipe, and other tech talk associated with digital sound processing is intimidating to me. It would not seem so daunting if I understood the terminology and concepts.  Is there some type of resource material such as a DVD or book like "Digital Sound Reinforcement For Dummies"? Does Mackie have a resource available that explains these terms and concepts in ways that a digital novice could understand.  I would not think I am the only analog user with these perceptions.  

Also has Mackie considered setting up some type of online interactive user interface to digital equipment such as the TT24. Doing so might alleviate apprehensions analog users have about going digital if they were able to go online and experience digital reinforcement using interface software in real time.  Maybe set up a virtual live performance and let the user see and hear what happens as they navigate different layers and make adjustments using the capabilities of the equipment...I would pay for such a venue just so I could experience what digital mixing is all about.  I don't know if this would be possible or cost effective, just a thought.
Mike
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Mike Babcock on May 08, 2006, 08:28:02 pm
Keeping with the spirit of the road test. I have a few real world questions that I couldn't discern while perusing the manual.

1A. When using linked auxes (stereo, exactly like an in-ear mix) are the headphone and monitor outputs also in stereo while soloing linked aux outputs?

1B. Does either the headphone or monitor output turn to mono in PFL mode as opposed to AFL mode while soloing a linked aux output?

2. Has anyone had a chance to do a side by side comparison to other surfaces with similar features? DM1000, 01V96 perhaps, etc. Even though perception of quality is very subjective to each person. I would like to hear positives and negatives of this surface compared to other surfaces and why. Items of big interest to me is audio quality, noise floor, ease of operation, logical location of buttons and features (do you naturally reach for a feature and realise it's not there?), quality of on board effects compared to that of competitors, etc.

Thanks in advance to whoever has this console currently.
Mike
Title: Re: TT24: monitor out in stereo for linked auxes?
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on May 08, 2006, 09:07:16 pm
I'm pretty sure I'm mixing on a TT24 again next next week. I'll try and look at your 1A and 1B questions.

-Bink
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Steve Beatty on May 09, 2006, 03:08:54 am
Mike-

First your Question #2:

I have owned Yamaha o1v's for years, using them for three primary functions.

1. Sidecar FX mixers on large-input shows.
2. When touring with a small opening act.
3. As a live recording console. Taking something like group feeds from my FOH console, and then being able to delay my board feeds to my FOH audience mics, using the individual channel delays found on the o1v's has always worked great for me.
( The TT24 does NOT have individual channel delays, and this is an essential function for me and my company. )

When comparing the o1v and the TT24, here's some of the observations I made.

- The TT24's pre-amps sounded better. No question.
- The overview window on the TT24 was far more comprehensive, and I liked the layout much better than the o1v's.
- The dynamics processing on the TT24 was more effective than the rather severe settings I have gone with on the o1v at times.
- The click and drag features and graphic visuals on the equalizers and dynamic processors on the TT24's software were extra quick, and effective.
- While many people are familar with the SPX effects engines found on o1v's, I was able to edit the TT24's to precisely what I wanted - I was happy with their quality as well.
- Obviously, a touch screen on the TT24.

I have owned o1v's since the first model ( 1998 ), so my ability to navigate and relay an objective opinion on " Logical Layout " of buttons and features is skewed. Fellow engineers say I know the console in Braille. Cool I did have initial difficulty with the Mackie, but that curve is rapidly straightening out.

Now Question One: PFL was mono, but you could solo each side of the linked auxes, not just the left.

AFL was indeed stereo.

Overall, I do like the TT24 better than the DM1000 or the o1v, primarily because of the pre-amps. One could always get a rack of nicer pre-amps and lightpipe your way into a Yamaha to overcome, and still maintain the smaller footprint.

I have always loved my o1v's for exactly the usage I described above, but as soon as the TT24 will allow me to delay individual channels I will probably switch over, but won't decide until I take the TT24 on it's big upcoming ROAD TEST assignment - the Joshua Tree Music Festival, May 19-21.

Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Kevin Maxwell AKA TheMAXX on May 09, 2006, 01:24:36 pm
Steve Beatty wrote on Tue, 09 May 2006 03:08

Mike-

First your Question #2:

I have owned Yamaha o1v's for years, using them for three primary functions.





Are you referring to the 01V96 or its predecessor? Is the expansion board for the Mackie readily available yet?
Title: Re: Road Test
Post by: John Boudreau on May 09, 2006, 03:50:31 pm
Thanks Mac,

Yes, the umx is specified to have offline editing.  

I must comment that although i spent a significant part of my last couple years defining the feature set and user interface of the umx.96 it has been officially passed on to my friends at EAW.

They will lead the continued development of that product.  This makes good sense, as they can evolve the mixer to suit the strategic plans for EAW electronics and ensure it fits the bigger picture.

I will gladly provide my console and digital audio knowledge to them, but in the long run it is the professional users of digital mixers and large loudspeaker systems that will be tapped to ensure that EAW mixing/processing products become closely coupled with EAW loudspeaker systems

jbou
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: John Boudreau on May 09, 2006, 04:10:38 pm
Hello Mike,

I've got Gil busy with lots o' stuff these days so you may not see him comment for a few weeks.  In the meantime, i'll have to do my best.

This is a really great idea. One of the goals of the TT was to offer a powerful digital product to the live sound applications at a price that would make a historically analog guy rub your chin and think seriously about making the change to digital.  It seems only fair that we should reach out with some educational tools to help make that decision even easier.  I'll give it a try to make a project like this happen with our marketing group but it could be a while.  

In the mean time, some of the books i have use to educate myself are:
Priciples of digital audio (my fav for nuts and bolts of digital audio - very much a college style text book)
Digital Audio Dictionary is also simple

Unless one of the other manufacturers has done it, I don't think there exists a simple guide to digital mixing in the live sound environment.  Any other topics you'd want to know about?
1. digital audio formats and connectivity
2. latency - how much is too much and how do you compensate for it
3. clocking multiple digital devices together so that the system doesn't create random clicks and pops!  Always a favorite amongst the live sound community.
Currently we have the software app available for download and an awful video instructional on the mixer's operational features.  

Before i forget I would like to say that a TT24 out of the box with no expansion options require no digital knowledge of this kind.  Just connect the analog ins and outs and start mixing.

jbou
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Mike Babcock on May 10, 2006, 12:40:10 am
http://www.soundcraft.com/download.asp?filename=pdf/palz/gui de_to_digitial_mixing_brochure.pdf

Not taking anything away from Mackie, but Soundcraft has a guide to digital mixing. It has some good basic info in it. Found at the link above and also by perusing the Study Hall.
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Mike Yates on May 10, 2006, 03:55:28 am
Man...I gotta be careful hangin around here, I might learn something and break my reputation! Thanks John, Mike.  John, I appreciate Mackie considering an online virtual digital mixing experience.  Eventhough this concept may not materialize in the short term, perhaps it could be used for education in the future.  I'll check out the books.  

Mike, Study Hall is excellent, and will aid my instruction.
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Craig Montgomery on May 12, 2006, 06:24:47 pm
Mike-

Control software for the TT24 and all the Yamaha consoles are available as free downloads.  That's a great way to kick the tires.

Will all the digi surfaces, what you're really doing is running software.  I've found that if you get your head inside the software, nothing on the surface is difficult.
Title: So....
Post by: Mac Kerr on May 16, 2006, 11:06:58 am
OK, we've been through another weekend, is there any further discussion of the TT24? Is the test still going? If not does Steve have any final thoughts on how it all went, and what really slick or really sick features jumped out at him?

Mac
Title: Re: So....
Post by: Rodd Lowell on May 16, 2006, 02:39:23 pm
Mac,

Thanks for putting into words what I have been thinking for a few days!!!

I too hope there is more to come!

Rodd
Title: TT24 group DSP prob
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on May 16, 2006, 04:30:01 pm
Mac Kerr wrote on Tue, 16 May 2006 08:06

OK, we've been through another weekend, is there any further discussion of the TT24? Is the test still going? If not does Steve have any final thoughts on how it all went, and what really slick or really sick features jumped out at him?

Mac


I, too, would love to hear more from Steve.

Right now I'm at one of my bigger corporate gigs with a TT24 linked to external preamps and it's jammed full of inputs. I'm using 53 inputs on the 48-channel setup! (Remember there are 8 line level TRS inputs for 'free'...) I'm also using every single output on the thing with the client looking for one more--a one-time mix minus monitor speaker that a thirteenth Aux would be perfect for. Guess I'll be hard-patching something at a coffee break.

One head-scratcher I've run into this time that hasn't been a problem before is that Flex-Group DSP assignment is stopping my subgroup audio from getting to the matrixes. The routing is extremely complicated this time around--maybe there's some path-length difference involved somewhere. If so, I can't find it by mentally tracing the routing. Or maybe there's some conflict between my turning subgroups 6, 7 and 8 into stereo groups while keeping the first five groups mono. None of the groups have any DSP assigned at this point which leaves all 8 blocks of subgroup DSP available. I can assign DSP at will but if engaged it stops audio from getting to the matrixes. I could go through and mess with my programming to try and narrow down the reason but I don't want to bollix the show. Maybe later I'll save what I've got in another snapshot and then start un-assigning things... We'll see. This show is a bruiser in terms of hours and I may opt to collapse at the hotel tonight.  Confused

-Bink
Title: Re: TT24 group DSP prob
Post by: Dave Stevens on May 17, 2006, 08:24:24 pm
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Tue, 16 May 2006 13:30

[I, too, would love to hear more from Steve.


I'd like to hear more from Steve as well.  He might not be able to answer what's happening with your app but I'll ping the the mothership and see if they can't have John Boy or another Mackiod stop in and see what's up with your surface.

Dave
Title: Re: TT24 group DSP prob
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on May 17, 2006, 09:58:40 pm
Dave, I can't imagine why the prob would be in this particular surface--I just don't know how individual these sorts of problems can be in a digital mixer. I was thinking the problem could be replicated with any TT24 if the tester sets up as ridiculously complex a show as I did. For instance, I routed 12 mics to 8 Auxes so that they could be automixed by an analog Shure 8x1. The single automixed return goes two places: Through an external 12-filter digital EQ (with 1.38ms of latency) back into Line Input 1 which is assigned to Subgroup 1 and fed to matrixes where the PA is. The automixer is also wyed straight to Line Input 2 without added latency (as compared to Line Input 1) where it's routed to L+R for record and also to a few IEM and backstage stage monitor feeds on Auxes 9-10-12. This is the part I've been examining like crazy since it's the most obvious place where I introduce potential path length problems. Nothing on the shorter path length Line Input 2 goes to any subgroup or any matrix; just to L+R and some other Auxes. Nothing from L+R or any Aux goes to any matrix. No routing on mics 1-12 except their Aux 1-8 assignments (four of the auxes have two mics each.) Yet the surface stops audio from getting to the matrixes if I assign Subgroup 1 a bit o' DSP.

Couldn't find the magic button last night or today.

Well, boys, it's off to one of the local Brit-theme pubs with the A2s for an elbow-bending session. This mystery's going to remain a head-scratcher for me. Probably won't have a chance to replicate it again.  Confused

-Bink
Title: Re: So....
Post by: Steve Beatty on May 18, 2006, 05:20:41 am
Hi everyone:

I sincerely apologize for the delay. I was neck deep in producing a world music show over the weekend, spent a full day at Nike, then another full day handling a benefit show for a friend who lost everything in a house fire. Not to mention that the band I tour manage and engineer for is leaving for Europe in the morning, and the cross country trips, arrangements,  and phone calls have beem insane !!

There is much more to come with the TT24 - some real time events pulled me away, but I am back on in the AM.

Steve

Title: Re: TT24 group DSP prob
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on May 19, 2006, 02:19:20 am
Quote:

...This mystery's going to remain a head-scratcher for me.


But I'm not just giving up on it! Any time I can I'll keep poking at this part of the surface in order to find out what makes the DSP cut my matrixes off. I hear I'll be working with it again next week on a different gig.

index.php/fa/4814/0/
FWIW, my gig went just fine with no DSP engaged on groups. I used appropriate amounts of compression on each input and for the most part got by with the 4 parametric filters on each input EQ. Here's a photo of me and the TT24 blurry in the foreground with Clinton (Bill, not George) in focus on video screens in the background.

-Bink
Title: Re: TT24 group DSP prob
Post by: Rodd Lowell on May 19, 2006, 09:25:24 am
Bink,

Wow, that looks like a complicated gig!

What is Bill wearing?  It looks really strange in the photo.  Is Hillary not around to help dress him?   Laughing

Rodd
Title: Re: TT24 group DSP prob
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on May 19, 2006, 10:34:43 am
Rodd Lowell wrote on Fri, 19 May 2006 06:25

Bink,

Wow, that looks like a complicated gig!

What is Bill wearing?  It looks really strange in the photo.  Is Hillary not around to help dress him?   Laughing

Rodd



Bill wore a camel coat with a shirt underneath sporting a pattern of bright red squares surrounded by thin white borders. Big squares, though, and quite video safe... they didn't go all moire/zebra on the video screens. Hillary CLEARLY didn't dress him, LOL... Right as he sat down for a question and answer period with the CEO of the big corporation he got a cell phone call. Looking a little embarassed he pulls it out in front of the crowd of 1800 and turns it off saying, "That's my wife. I really should turn this off so we all can talk. I know it's my wife because no one else has this number--not even me."  Wink

"High IQ in politics is like driving a fast car in a New York traffic jam." -Bill Clinton

-Bink
Title: Re: TT24 group DSP prob
Post by: John Boudreau on May 19, 2006, 04:47:42 pm
Hey Bink,

Johnb @ mackie here.  I just ran a test on the group DSP issue you've raised.  I set up my groups as mono 1-5 and stereo 6-8.

I ran just a couple channels (23 & 24)in to group 6, 7, & 8 and routed the groups out the matrices (F, G, H) with no problems, dsp or no dsp.  Did you see metering on the group fat channel when the dsp was enabled?

Is there any other routing I should be aware of that may make my test invalid compared to your setup?  I tested on the currently released build 68 and previous build 60 to make sure it wasn't a newly introduced bug in our recently released bug fix build 68.

Anyway, let me know if I can help out further.   I'd be curious t know if you get audio when disabling the matrix so the outputs were group outs instead of matrix outs.

That's quite a gig!  Lot's o' I/O.....
johnb
Title: Re: TT24 group DSP prob
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on May 19, 2006, 06:46:29 pm
Hi, John, and thanks for your interest in my situation. When I can, I'll get you the snapshot file and a description of the crazy patching and routing I did.

The unit in question is running on build 60 software.

-Bink
Title: Re: Road Test
Post by: Steve Beatty on May 20, 2006, 02:53:24 am
Hi Everyone:

While we are waiting for the proper licensing to come through on the audio files from the TT24 I offered to post, I will tell you the in-depths of listening back to the recordings.

First, I found the effects on the TT24 to be incredibly responsive and lush. A stereo 400ms delay that sounded subtle when I applied it during the Trespassers William show became thick and huge on my Genelecs in my Airstream studio. The sound of the delay effect was a " good " huge, however, not grainy or incomplete. My choice for EQ on the vocal delay was vey similar to the old " telephone " effect, rolling out lows and highs, and allowing midrange to be the primary range to return through the delay.

I have found that the O1V effects banks ( essentially two 990's ) are good, but in truth, I have spent hours creating my own saved effects presets with eq's to combat the the graininess or overbearing presence some of the factory stored presets on the O1V have.

The TT24 effects responded well to the changes I made during the show, and the audible results proved it. I can actually hear the eq tightening up on the vocal effect.

Next, we recorded Ellis Paul ( ellispaul.com ), a prestigious singer songwriter who has done everything from writing songs for TV shows to composing anthems for state tourism bureaus ( Maine ). Beyond all that, he is one heck of a nice guy, and was all for us using the TT24 for the FOH mix.

So in two days, the TT24 had graduated from a recording console on a split, to our FOH console. I was very excited, but our owner Jim still expressed some trepidation about the mechanical nature of the console as being distracting to the show. I guess he's right, there is something about flying faders, computer screens, and blinking pastel lights that make people want to look...

My first job was to get a miniotr mix together for Ellis. I went in early, created a new scene, and pulled out a plain old Mackie SR450 powered speaker for his wedge. I used a Neumann KM 105 for the vocal, set up the Aux send in pre, and quickly got my gain and eq together. I did not use the internal eq of the Mackie on the Aux send, but instead used one of Sabine 31 band graphs. I just felt safer, should something start howling. ( It didn't! )

I did however, use the internal eq to go to the mains. I opened up the KM 105 ( and the Audix SCX-One for the guitar ) on just rang a few frequencies, I heard a few rough spots, and was able to track them down very quickly with the click and drag KILL feature on the master eq of the TT24. Ever narrowing my quotient, I got great response, without sucking out too much gain from the overall mix.

Then, I inspected my effects routing to make sure the feedback howl I generated in my headphones during the Trespassers show could not happen again. As I was checking with my talkback over the house system. ( Meyer CQ-1's and PS 750 subs ), Ellis walked in from dinner.

He said - " That's exactly the reverb I want you to use for me. " I smiled - I had copied the settings developed during the other show, and his approval validated that editing had indeed worked great for or small listening room and venue.

He walked onstage, spoke into the mic, and smiled himself...we were off to a great start.

Then, I pushed " SAVE ", and relaxed a little - I was feeling quite secure over the console, and it was responding well.

Title: Re: Road Test
Post by: Eric Snodgrass on May 20, 2006, 11:17:31 am
Steve Beatty wrote on Fri, 19 May 2006 23:53

So in two days, the TT24 had graduated from a recording console on a split, to our FOH console. I was very excited, but our owner Jim still expressed some trepidation about the mechanical nature of the console as being distracting to the show. I guess he's right, there is something about flying faders, computer screens, and blinking pastel lights that make people want to look...


That's a very dated misconception.  Audiences are quite used to stuff at FOH.  In fact, with digital consoles having built-in effects there is actually less gear at the mix position, thus less pretty lights to draw focus.  
If the audience is busy looking at the mixing gear rather than listening to the performers then that doesn't reflect well on the performance (or your mixing at a NAMM show).
Title: Re: Road Test
Post by: Steve Beatty on May 21, 2006, 10:39:58 pm
Eric-

A dated misconsception, maybe - but, he is the owner, and I am obligated to make him feel comfortable. I think you would need to be a little more familiar to with the show formula at Mississippi Studios. It is a quaint old church setting, and the FOH position is amongst the audience. The venue only holds 100, and is completely silent during a show. The noise of the faders can be head by almost everyone.

What does mixing at a NAMM show have to do with this? I think I missed the connection....
Title: Re: Road Test
Post by: Eric Snodgrass on May 21, 2006, 11:17:09 pm
Steve Beatty wrote on Sun, 21 May 2006 19:39

What does mixing at a NAMM show have to do with this? I think I missed the connection....

The joke being that the audience at a NAMM show is there to see and hear the gear, not the concert.
Title: Re: TT24 (my own little 'road test')
Post by: the other Mike Russell on May 22, 2006, 01:07:51 pm
Out of the blue I received a call to go help a local Church whos regular guy was unavailable for some reason. Just a pure friend-of-a-friend kind of deal, walk in and help them get their (totally unknown to me) system up and running. I was quite surprised to see a TT24 sitting there when I arrived! Very timely given the fact that I've been working with my trusty 01V96 in the home project studio thinking it might be time to take it out in place of the small-gig Mixwiz/Process rack based on some of the recent posts on the LAB, try some wireless StudioManager control, etc.

Anyway, so there I am having never touched a TT24 before, needing to get a small 'christian rock band' up and running plus a few extra mics for the rest of the church service. Overall, the unit was relatively straightforward to navigate. Didn't spend enough time with it to really say it was 'easier' than the Yamaha, but a first impression might seem that way.

A couple of nit-picky annoyances came up that perhaps aren't even a real issue if I had the time (and manual) to actually learn the thing.  However, in no particular order:

1) HPF via V-Pot - no display of what the HPF freq. actually is?

2) Using the "matrix of knobs" to set EQ (especially) or AUX send levels... painfully time consuming to tweak the knobs just right to get the value you want... I like the turn faster=go faster mentality, but versus an analog situation where I know what a twist of the knob from X to Y gets me, twisting and tweaking to get a value, listen, re-adjust, just seemed to take way longer than it should have.  Also, way too much time spent turning Aux sends from Zero to Useful... either I want zero, or I want to start at maybe -18 dB... takes a while to dial it up that far...

Cool stuff.. channel dynamics... the FAT channel overview... meter-bridge functionality for channel input levels...  analog preamp trim for quick adjustments...   would like to have seen the computer control interface and had the manual to learn more about assigning groups, patching processing, etc.

So that's my penny's worth after a couple of hours of being thrown into the frying pan with a TT24. I wouldn't refuse one if provided...    if I didn't already own an 01V96 and it was available in a next-model-down version for half the price, I'd likely buy it.     For now, I'll learn surfaces with the Yamaha and then perhaps pursue the TT24 (or M7cl) as a future Venice/Verona replacement...
Title: Re: TT24 (my own little 'road test')
Post by: John Boudreau on May 22, 2006, 03:59:10 pm
That is timely,
Hello Mike,

I'll just quickly address the not-so-nit-picky stuff you pointed out.

The variable HPF frequency value is a tiny numeric display in the EQ LCD screen.  couldn't get it on the fat channel display so that was the compromise.

knob velocity - we added a user setting to adjust the velocity from slow to fast.  there are six settings.  Fast is analog equivalent, which is what your looking for.  I think we may make that the default on the next build since it has been a regular complaint of the UI.  In the slow mode, you can spin the knob quickly for large changes and when you slow down the turning speed you get 0.1 step accuracy.  It's great for all of us who want to get 8.3dB of gain on an aux master (exactly!)  Honestly, it was an argument I've had with engineering for a long time.  The engineers like the precision of the velocity approach.   and folks like you want it to feel like an analog EQ.  the compromise was to add the user adjustment.

Thanks
johnboudreau
Title: Re: TT24 (my own little 'road test')
Post by: the other Mike Russell on May 22, 2006, 08:12:33 pm
Thanks John, good to know.  I should have guessed there was a way to make the knobs behave in a more "analog" format - but definitely support your quest to make that the default behavior!

HPF seems a little more tricky - I must have missed the tiny number changing... OR do you mean that not only would you have to hit the V-POT HPF button, but also hit both SELECT and EQ for the channel in question? Why couldn't the display shift to that mode when you begin making that adjustment?

PS: and I'd welcome a TT16 model - rackmount - that sells for around $2k   Wink


John Boudreau wrote on Mon, 22 May 2006 15:59

That is timely,
Hello Mike,

I'll just quickly address the not-so-nit-picky stuff you pointed out.

The variable HPF frequency value is a tiny numeric display in the EQ LCD screen.  couldn't get it on the fat channel display so that was the compromise.

knob velocity - we added a user setting to adjust the velocity from slow to fast.  there are six settings.  Fast is analog equivalent, which is what your looking for.  I think we may make that the default on the next build since it has been a regular complaint of the UI.  In the slow mode, you can spin the knob quickly for large changes and when you slow down the turning speed you get 0.1 step accuracy.  It's great for all of us who want to get 8.3dB of gain on an aux master (exactly!)  Honestly, it was an argument I've had with engineering for a long time.  The engineers like the precision of the velocity approach.   and folks like you want it to feel like an analog EQ.  the compromise was to add the user adjustment.

Thanks
johnboudreau

Title: Re: TT24 (my own little 'road test')
Post by: Rodd Lowell on May 23, 2006, 10:03:14 am
the other Mike Russell wrote on Tue, 23 May 2006 01:12

HPF seems a little more tricky - I must have missed the tiny number changing... OR do you mean that not only would you have to hit the V-POT HPF button, but also hit both SELECT and EQ for the channel in question? Why couldn't the display shift to that mode when you begin making that adjustment?


Push the SELECT button on the channel you want to adjust the HPF on, Push the EQ button in the "Quick Mix" section (just below the LCD screen), make sure the HPF button is pressed on the VPOT CONTROL section.  Look on the left side of the LCD screen where it says HPF FREQ, twist the channel's VPOT and watch the frequency change on the LCD screen.

I think that is what you were asking.  If not, sorry about that.

Rodd
Title: Knob velocity
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on May 24, 2006, 02:49:07 am
John Boudreau wrote on Mon, 22 May 2006 12:59

...knob velocity - we added a user setting to adjust the velocity from slow to fast.  there are six settings.  Fast is analog equivalent, which is what your looking for.  I think we may make that the default on the next build since it has been a regular complaint of the UI.  In the slow mode, you can spin the knob quickly for large changes and when you slow down the turning speed you get 0.1 step accuracy.  It's great for all of us who want to get 8.3dB of gain on an aux master (exactly!)  Honestly, it was an argument I've had with engineering for a long time.  The engineers like the precision of the velocity approach.   and folks like you want it to feel like an analog EQ.  the compromise was to add the user adjustment.

Thanks
johnboudreau


For the record, I can't stand the FAST setting since it doesn't allow precise selection of EQ centers. I might be completely alone in this but, hey, it's the way I work. I like my EQ centers to sit right on top of the EQ problem I've identified via SmaartLive or other super-accurate RTA.

My gig today used a TT24--just for grins I selected FAST for knob velocity in order to revisit the issue and report here.

When you give a big ol' spin to the EQ frequency knob in FAST mode you get a fast climb from 20Hz to about 2.66 kHz or thereabouts, depending on how much you twist the knob. If you slow down to individual ticks on the knob you find that each tick is equal to about 1/2.5 octaves, more or less. That is, there are two or three ticks per octave and the concept of octave doesn't appear to determine results. You are NOT able to zero in on a specific Hz in FAST mode. The mode is definitely meant for new user friendliness, not expert skilled usage. That said, I'm only happy working the EQ knobs with an associated laptop running the remote control app since the knob velocity algorithm still hasn't nailed "what I want" versus "what my fingers are doing."

-Bink
Title: Re: TT24 (my own little 'road test')
Post by: Steve Beatty on May 24, 2006, 04:07:49 am
If you have the ability to hook your TT24 up to a laptop, the OVERVIEW screen on each channel displays all master settings, including the HPF, in bright colors. This color screen was one of the most appealing features I found with the console, and once I had my laptop going, I rarely used the built-in grayscale screen on the console except for touch functions.

Try it - the overview makes using the console and getting precise settings on eq's and dynamics much easier.

Also, I too found that knob velocity HAD to be set at the fastest setting to achieve the rapid changes necessary in live settings. Every other setting seemed to have " hiccups " in it's delivery of the desired setting or function.
Title: Re: Knob velocity
Post by: Rodd Lowell on May 24, 2006, 09:17:12 am
Bink,

This is a little off topic, but I was wondering if you use the gates built in to the TT24.  I know you were having some issues with them in the past, mainly the clicking noise when the gate opened.  I experienced the same thing this past weekend and made an adjustment to the Attack and thinks seemed to get better.

I was just curious if you found a solution to the problem or if you are just using some other gates.

Thanks for your time,

Rodd
Title: Gates
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on May 24, 2006, 09:37:07 am
Rodd Lowell wrote on Wed, 24 May 2006 06:17

...I was wondering if you use the gates built in to the TT24.  I know you were having some issues with them in the past, mainly the clicking noise when the gate opened.  I experienced the same thing this past weekend and made an adjustment to the Attack and thinks seemed to get better.


Your solution is also mine--play with the Attack to make the gate sound good. I'm gating just a few things on these last two corpie gigs: "Voice Of God" mic gets gated as do laptop sound sources. I find the Noise Suppression system's -70 dB global noise gate is sufficient for everything else. No drums on the last few TT24 gigs of mine.

-Bink
Title: Re: TT24 (my own little 'road test')
Post by: John Boudreau on May 24, 2006, 06:09:15 pm
Howdy,
yup, you need to select the channel and he EQ screen. Definitely a compromised situation for that function.  That particular screen is HTML driven so we can't have a window pop up that contains dynamic data. sorry...

rack mount, huh?
I've been thinking about this a lot lately.  If it were in a rack would you accept an even smaller screen?
thx
jbou
Title: Re: TT24 (my own little 'road test')
Post by: the other Mike Russell on May 24, 2006, 09:12:38 pm
With respect to screen size, so far, I'm finding the 01V96 to be quite usable, for what it's worth...   Wink  

And - like most others around these parts it seems - I'd plan on using a laptop running the "good" interface whenever possible...

John Boudreau wrote on Wed, 24 May 2006 18:09

Howdy,
yup, you need to select the channel and he EQ screen. Definitely a compromised situation for that function.  That particular screen is HTML driven so we can't have a window pop up that contains dynamic data. sorry...

rack mount, huh?
I've been thinking about this a lot lately.  If it were in a rack would you accept an even smaller screen?
thx
jbou

Title: Re: TT24 (my own little 'road test')
Post by: Rob Spence on May 24, 2006, 10:50:27 pm
In a 16 channel version I would want 16 mic preamps (not the 12 in other units). Would still want to expand it with outboard Preamps though.
Title: Re: Gates
Post by: Steve Beatty on May 26, 2006, 03:56:59 am
The ability to insert analog dynamics on each channel also helps ensure that one can achieve exactly what they arelooking for even if the onboard dynamics leave something to be desired.

For me, the ability to keep my trusty old 160's for specific channels makes all the difference in the world when usingg the TT24 !!
Title: Re: TT24 (my own little 'road test')
Post by: drewgandy on May 28, 2006, 02:53:32 pm
Steve Beatty wrote on Wed, 24 May 2006 03:07

If you have the ability to hook your TT24 up to a laptop, the OVERVIEW screen on each channel displays all master settings, including the HPF, in bright colors. This color screen was one of the most appealing features I found with the console, and once I had my laptop going, I rarely used the built-in grayscale screen on the console except for touch functions.



This prompts a question for John at Mackie.  Is the builtin screen constructed in such a way that it could easily be removed so the "surface" could be housed in a smaller road case?  I had a demo TT24 last summer that had the first run R&R case for it and it just bugged me that it should take such a large and heavy case for a 24 channel board.  It really dwarfs my GL3000-24.  Seeing as so many use the external laptop anyway, it might not be a bad tradeoff.  

Drew
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: John Boudreau on June 01, 2006, 12:45:37 am
Hey Mike,

Lots of cool ideas, some of which i've heard before and some that are truly unique.  Believe me,mackie has long thought of how to do a successful digital 1604.  There have been many blockades in getting the right product to the right price point.  As usual, we are not particularly interested in copying the 01V or any one else for that matter.  The philosophy for the name Mackie getting silkscreened on any product we design remains true to Greg's eclectic ways .  Try to be innovative while delivering great feature sets for the buck. Oh, and the user interface should be simple.  Sometimes we succeed and sometimes we fail.  Both usually occur in epic fashion!

This is a TT24 road test forum, so we're getting off topic and venturing into developmet topics i don't care to share with my friends at the other manufacturers...........but i'd really like to get your thoughts on this product concept offline. I'm not sure how to do that on this forum.
let me know if you have time for such tomfoolery..
jbou
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Mike McCloskey on June 01, 2006, 09:12:06 pm
you've got mail...
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Justin Warbreck on June 18, 2006, 02:18:06 pm
I could get away with a smaller screen on a 16 channel console. If I am bring along a laptop it wouldn't really matter.

I would say it would need to have the 16 mic pre's and adat in's for an additional 16. Having the ability to expand to 32 in a rack mount....nice.

I have loved both of our TT's. We have one in our main room (seats about 600) and one in our small room (seats about 220).

pics from about a year and a half ago-
http://www.mackie.com/artists/index.html?id=394
Title: Re: TT24 (my own little 'road test')
Post by: Chris Cowley on June 18, 2006, 04:47:20 pm
John Boudreau wrote on Wed, 24 May 2006 23:09

That particular screen is HTML driven so we can't have a window pop up that contains dynamic data. sorry...


Couldn't you use something like AJAX to do it?
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Adam Whetham on June 28, 2006, 02:24:11 pm
Well, we just got out TT24 for a roadtest also. Been reading this thread, reading the manual, and playing with all the blinky lights on it. so far I'm liking it alot.

First gig is in a week. casino show with a comedian and I belive a small Jazz Group. We'll see how smooth it goes.

I would love to hear more from the Mark and how he's doing.
Title: Re: TT24 STATUS REPORT
Post by: Mark Herman on July 11, 2006, 04:07:25 pm
Update on the status of the TT24:

Due to reasons beyond our control the TT24 review was stalled with the console stuck in a storage locker because the reviewer went to Europe on tour unexpectedly. The TT24 has just been liberated and is now having a roadcase being built so that it can be shipped to various Road Testers for real world evaluation in different modes.

ProSoundWeb apologizes for the interuption but assures you that this thread will continue in the very near future.

Mark Herman
Publisher
ProSoundWeb
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Olli Rajala on August 12, 2006, 03:06:51 am
I've been using TT24 since last December in our church[1]. Our first board was 'Monday piece' like we Finnish say. Power switch jammed (luckily to on position Wink and a little after getting it back from the warranty service, it went crazy. Lost all presets (even the FX ones..) and you couldn't save anything because 'Check that there is space left and it's not write protected.' Well, how you can check that in a mixing console? Smile Our dealer (Mackie's local representative) wasn't very helpful and didn't want to replace it in the first place, but when we told him that the Mackie's official technical support said it's broken and should be replaced, he quite quickly agreed to do it... It's nice to have some ways to "push". Wink

The new board has worked almost without problems. One signal led is broken but we wouldn't want to send it to the service just because of that. When I was installing UFX2 card (the one that gives you eq+dynamics also to the digital channels) I found some bugs in the software. It seems that it stores to the presets whether there is that card or not and if you recall a preset with wrong configuration stored, it doesn't like it very much. (more explanation http://forums.mackie.com/scripts/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=ge t_topic;f=5;t=000721) Actually our board is now in a state that it doesn't boot. I was playing that card yesterday and something went seriously wrong. It seems that the only way to correct this is to do hard reset, which deletes all snapshots and stuff. Yep, you guessed right, backups... No, there aren't any. I'm going to take a full backup maybe once a month, or something like that, in the future. *sigh* Have to leave soon to do some more playing, because it will be needed this evening and next morning.

So, though we have had problems, Mackie has been very helpful. Unfortunately you can't get that kind of a support from their Finnish representative...

I think that maybe I should write some more user comments so that this wouldn't be only a explanation of different problems. Smile I got an opportunity to mix one youth service with that board before we were able to go back to our church. So, this was really portable situation. I got the board for me a couple of days before that and played with it in our living room (board wasn't too big for my wife but you should have seen her glance when she saw it's package... Wink I had used O1V and even O2R maybe two or three times, but it was 3-4 years ago. So I hadn't much experience with digital boards, and actually my biggest analog board has been 32ch 3G Signet (and of course quite many different models of smaller A&H, Soundcraft, Behringer, Mackie etc boards have been under my control) I felt very comfortable with this board at the very beginning. I found it much more easier to use than the O1V and O2R. I haven't used the O1VR96 so can't say anything about that. Oh, had to use the Behringer DDX3216 last Thursday and fortunately it was dialed in for that band and I didn't have do anything in that hurry... Yep, if I just can decide, I'm not going to touch that model anymore.

So, though I find TT24 easy to use, it is different than any analog board. I'm not saying more difficult, it just is different. You must for example be very careful to be in the right bank when doing anything. I've tried to take a habbit to _everytime_ check that you're on right page and don't expect anything... Luckily we were able to get a computer to control it, because it just is _so_ much easier to use the control software with big color TFT and mouse+keyboard. As people have said, they don't like the feel of the v-pots and I too find it quite annoying. Maybe I should play a little more with the speed setting. But, it's easier to turn something completely off (like when setting matrixes) with the v-pots than in the control software. In the control software it's easy to input with keyboard the desired setting (like -10, 0 or 5) but I haven't found a way to input 'Off' settings with that.

I can't comment much about the onboard effects, because we bought TC M1XL and D2. I have sometimes used some onboard reverbs for snare, but I hadn't much time to play with it then, so don't just know. The onboard delay it's quite hard to use because there isn't 'Tap'-function, but D2 is good for that. Wink

User bank is _very_ valuable for me, and now when I finally found a way to save it's settings, I'm very happy. You can access it from Utility->User bank (iirc) and it's not saved with snapshots. It's saved with venues, so Files->Save venue. There was some good reasons in Mackie forums for that, but in our situation it would work much better to save it with the snapshots. Most of the time when I'm mixing I have only 10-16 inputs so I can patch cd, fx returns and even aux masters to the same page with the mic inputs. And if you have some linked channels, you need to patch only one of the two channels, quite a good way to save space!

So, here was some comments and if you want to know more, I'm happy to answer. Sorry that this was so long post.

[1] We did quite an extensive renovation during last year, upgraded the acoustics, av-system and even pews among other things. We had A&H GL2000 with 2*Martin Audio ICT-300/side and now have TT24 with Nexo GeoS rig. Monitors are all Nexo PSx (2*8, 4*10, 2*15) and we even got active mic splitting because they're going to start TV ministry. Some pics (some good, some not so good) can be found in the addresses below. Though this is a little offtopic, I thought to tell this so you could have a little idea where I'm coming from with these comments.

http://www.dy.fi/7dc
http://ragol.kattila.org/soundpics/
http://nexo-sa.com/asp/news/newspage.asp?id=386 (There's one error though, monitors are powered by Crown, but PA by Camco Vortex 6)

Blessings,
Title: Re: TT24
Post by: Kevin Messerschmidt on August 16, 2006, 11:01:55 pm
yes there definatley is a user layer.  it is accessed exactly the way you described.  You set it up on the mixers menu utility-then user bank or the easiest way to do it is through the ttcontrol software again utility - user bank.  Easy to do and works great to help give you exactly what you want.  
One other thouht on flex groups...I actually use 2 of them as a stereo group and return my effects into them that way i have a stereo return in the flex group...just a thought.