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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: [x] on October 20, 2005, 12:15:58 am

Title: A question about large arrayed systems
Post by: [x] on October 20, 2005, 12:15:58 am
Ok, here's the scenario: A big, traditional array of boxes, like Yorkville TX, or EAW KF850, with ground-stacked sub horns like LAB horns.

How would it grab you to have another type of box in addition to the full-range boxes and the LAB Horns, with the same form factor as the rectangular full-range boxes being used (and thus being able to be arrayed together with a consistent appearance) yet designed specifically to deliver bass in the range from 150 to 60 Hz with greater impact and "punch"? The full-range boxes would be used from 18kHz to 150Hz, and then these intermediate bass boxes would be used from 150 Hz to 60 Hz, and then the LAB Horns would take over from there down to 27 Hz or whatnot. It has been said that the LABs  seem to lack the "punch" because the design is so much more focused on the "sub" in sub-bass.

Does this seem like something you would want to have in your system or would it be kind of stupid?
Title: Re: A question about large arrayed systems
Post by: Tom Manchester on October 20, 2005, 12:25:06 am
I think some people use and reccomend the speakerplans.com HD15 for this exact same application. I built a pair for my high school Sr. Research project and loaded them with eminence Delta 15lf's (specs for them and the kappas are pretty close, just different power handling) and I am pretty impressed. alot of output in these little boxes.
Title: Re: A question about large arrayed systems
Post by: Bennett Prescott on October 20, 2005, 12:36:34 am
You're essentially talking a "mid-bass" speaker in a 4 or 5 way system. Not at all uncommon. Peavey even makes one in the QW series, intended to take over where the QW218 leaves off and let go where the QW1 starts.

http://peavey.com/products/browse.cfm/action/detail/item/110 961/number/00571300/cat/256/begin/1/QW%AE+215+Subwoofer+Mid+ Bass.cfm
Title: Re: A question about large arrayed systems
Post by: David Buehler on October 20, 2005, 12:37:57 am
Something like a Meyer DS-4P?
It's the mid-bass companion for the MSL-4s and other Concert Series Boxes.
 http://www.meyersound.com/products/concertseries/ds-4p/eleme nts/ds-4p_new.jpg
Title: Re: A question about large arrayed systems
Post by: Jason McLaurin on October 20, 2005, 01:54:51 am
Stupid?  No way.  Big PA's produce more energy in that range than any other, so it makes perfect sense to design a system accordingly.

I'd say that the 80's approach centered around the belief that 40 per side of the exact same box was a good thing, and today's approach centers mostly around adapting HF and midrange devices to work well in the vertical arrays.  Your approach is easily as valid; the biggest question is whether MF and HF subsystems could be designed around it.  The EAW KF900 system is the closest thing that comes to mind, but it never won the "easy for monkeys to deploy" award Smile

-Jason
Title: Re: A question about large arrayed systems
Post by: Peter Morris on October 20, 2005, 03:11:31 am
Not really - That’s basically what the low section of 850, 852, 853, 650, Xarray, Nexo Alpha and Alpha E etc does! - 80 to about 200-250.  The 750 is a bit closer to your selection, 60-80hz to 170hz.

The old Martin F2 is even closer in some ways – double 18 reflex subs 30 to 65, lows- double 15 horn – 65 to 220, mids 220 to 1K2, hi mid 1K2 to 7K isk and Hi’s 7K up.

In a large array these boxes don’t run out in this area. Very very roughly, small PAs tend to run out in the low frequency end, big PAs run out at the other end.

For dance type music with a small 850 rig – a couple a side, just double the number of subs and cross them over at 120hz……


Peter
Title: Re: A question about large arrayed systems
Post by: Tom Young on October 20, 2005, 08:24:15 am
Although this is not commonly used, I have seen this done on some occasions and at least one manufacturer has a specifric product to address this.  See: www.meyersound.com and go to the
DS-4P

EAW also makes such a device as part of the KF series (if I recall correctly).

Historically there have been such products, such as the Martin 2x15 "butterfly" bass horn.  I guess one could argue that prior to us all deploying "real" subs (that extend the frequency response down below 50-60Hz) that most bass horns and/or "subs" we have used covered the range you describe.

Whether or not you really need this depends on the acoustics, the musical style and the whims of you and the others who mix.
Title: Re: JSI's large arrayed systems
Post by: Shane Ervin on October 20, 2005, 10:08:37 am
Jason Sound Industries (JSI) is a name that should be mentioned here.  Jeff Berryman was the technical director and is duly credited for his designs.  Bryan Adams, BTO & others used JSI's rigs starting with the 1975 BTO tour on up to the mid 1990's. Ongoing improvements and modifications led to this arrg't:

Fully horn-loaded 5-way rig, in 3 boxes, called the J-60 system.

J-61 sub:The remaining boxes flew and looked like S4's from a distance, (causing some confusion in those days).

J-62 flying woofer box:
J-63 3-Way : Lo-Mid / Hi-Mid / Hi
Noteworthy also: an excellent sidefill stack could made from a J-62/63 and prepped by just disconnecting the bullets, allowing the 2 inch to run up to 15 k or so.
Title: Re: JSI's large arrayed systems
Post by: Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk on October 20, 2005, 10:14:05 am
Would one of these boxes have been known as "the piston"????  Keep hearing about them, never have seen or heard them in person.

Gus
Title: Re: JSI's large arrayed systems
Post by: Brad Channing on October 20, 2005, 10:46:49 am
I don't know the specifics of it, but Clair Bros. made/makes? a P-4  I think, that everyone around here refers to as pistons.  But don't quote me on that, its been awhile since I've seen any.
Title: Re: A question about large arrayed systems
Post by: Randy Pence on October 20, 2005, 11:24:05 am
not a stupid idea, and why i would never design a dance system around martin w8s.  I think too many designs depend on raising the cutoff for the subs to provide ribsnapping bass.
Title: Re: A question about large arrayed systems
Post by: Chris Davis on October 20, 2005, 12:13:43 pm
Tom Young wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 08:24

Although this is not commonly used, I have seen this done on some occasions and at least one manufacturer has a specifric product to address this.  See: www.meyersound.com and go to the
DS-4P

EAW also makes such a device as part of the KF series (if I recall correctly).

Historically there have been such products, such as the Martin 2x15 "butterfly" bass horn.  I guess one could argue that prior to us all deploying "real" subs (that extend the frequency response down below 50-60Hz) that most bass horns and/or "subs" we have used covered the range you describe.

Whether or not you really need this depends on the acoustics, the musical style and the whims of you and the others who mix.


I was just wondering about that over on the sub forum.  I do believe you are thinking about EAW's BH853, and unfortunately it seems it is discontinued.  They do show a newer cab on their site though, the BH2312.  It's a 300 lb cab though...Rolling Eyes  I still like the idea of the Meyer DS-4P.  Wonder if they have an unpowered version.  Oww, my back.Razz
Title: Re: A question about large arrayed systems
Post by: Eric Snodgrass on October 20, 2005, 01:55:01 pm
Rory Buszka wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 21:15

How would it grab you to have another type of box in addition to the full-range boxes and the LAB Horns, with the same form factor as the rectangular full-range boxes being used (and thus being able to be arrayed together with a consistent appearance) yet designed specifically to deliver bass in the range from 150 to 60 Hz with greater impact and "punch"?

Like Tom and Chris mentioned, Meyer DS4-P is that box.  I've got 4 used in our trap-box clusters, two per side.  They work very well when arrayed and SIMMed with the other boxes in the clusters (6 MSL4-Ps, 2 DF4-Ps, 3 UPA1-Ps, and 3 650Ps per side in addition to the DS4-Ps).
It's all about the right tool for the job and this is the right tool for the job here.
Title: Re: A question about large arrayed systems
Post by: Phillip_Graham on October 20, 2005, 02:00:57 pm
Rory Buszka wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 00:15

Ok, here's the scenario: A big, traditional array of boxes, like Yorkville TX, or EAW KF850, with ground-stacked sub horns like LAB horns.



I'm going to say the same thing as Peter (M.) from down under.  In a large array of something like the EAW 850, or the nexo B1, the undersized low mid horns couple effectively.  This along with the additional directivity of the array, often results in TOO much energy in the region you are talking about.

This is the classic low mid "mud" that has largely gone the way of the dodo thanks to careful design of line arrays.  The dedicated processing of the 850/alpha-type boxes can have substantial cuts in eq for this range to sound balanced.

If you look at the raw frequency response of many of the line arrays (EAW 730 for example), you will see an upward tilt in response from lows to highs.  This is intentional so that the boxes, when coupled together, provide flat response through the low mids.

If you go to meyers website, and read the paper on their LD3 line driver, is covers this kind of low mid eq very effectively.