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Title: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Doug Fowler on September 21, 2005, 05:06:37 pm
H E L P

Can someone tell me how to explain to a small system operator why using this stuff is bad?  I am at a loss for words, other than "you look like a backwoods PA farmer when you pull those out".

I am at my wit's end with this.  There is someone locally that is very close to having a respectable package, but refuses to get rid of this crap (it's paid for, after all :-), and still insists on stringing cables willy-nilly between racks, from inside each exposed rack, instead of either making or buying some simple XLR input/output panels which could be color coded to make persistent connections, using color coded XLR looms.

I give up.  I don't know how to explain how amateurish this is.

Of course there are other obstacles (like basic stagecraft, neat cable runs, that sort of stuff) but this is really glaring.  Ugly piles of cables are bad enough, but when they're orange, well, you know what I'm talking about.

-doug, Mr. "perpetually frustrated over this"





Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Andy Peters on September 21, 2005, 05:11:56 pm
Doug Fowler wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 14:06

Can someone tell me how to explain to a small system operator why using this stuff is bad?  I am at a loss for words, other than "you look like a backwoods PA farmer when you pull those out".


Sir Doug,

You are mudwrestling with a pig.

'nuff said.

-a
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Eric Snodgrass on September 21, 2005, 05:30:33 pm
Oh, you mean XLR.  The title of the thread led me to believe you were talking about AC cables on deck.  AC or XLR day-glo colors on deck present the same problem anyway - they draw attention to themselves (those selfish little cables).  

Doug, ever show the mudwrestling pig a picture of a professional rack from a high end audio company?  Would the pig even understand what it is seeing?  It sounds like this pig is a friend of yours.  Why else would this frustrate you so much?

As an aside, I work with a lot of Local 600 camera utility guys and I asked this very question of them when they were stringing orange and green AC edison cable all over the stage.  They said that OSHA won't allow them to use black.  I'm not sure if this is also true of film shoots.  It sounds as though OSHA has made its influence directly known in the television production business yet they don't seem to have quite made it to theatrical and concert businesses, though I think it's only a matter of time before they become directly involved in those two businesses, especially in the rigging departments.  
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Liam Flynn on September 21, 2005, 05:38:57 pm
 Hey! We aren't all pigs. Laughing


Until it comes down to dollars from lost gigs to someone better prepared, or the person wants to make the effort due to pride, it's hard to get across.

I had to quit working for someone over this stuff- same hassles every gig. Nothing labelled at FOH, no FX or insert snakes, no drive snake, everything hooked together with adapters, half the amps speakon, half bananas, half the speakers 1/4", half speakon, same with mons. Not a problem, but all the speaker and line cables and adapters thrown in a box labelled "Cables", every gig. It took an extra man-hour or two every gig to set up, with questions and searching.

And that's before the multi-colored AC cables. Smile
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Reid on September 21, 2005, 06:21:13 pm
I'm a fan of black cords.
I'm from the days when all sound gear was black.
You did that to not distract from the act.
Now a days, the act is so distracting that the cords are invisible regardless of their color.

I got a bargain on Carare L4.  I think it was like $.17 a foot, but only in yellow. As a result, all of FOH is wired in Canare yellow.  I tell bands yellow wire passes signal faster.  Some even believe me?!

Sams club recently had 12/3 100' extensions for $30.00.  Being the frugal shopper I am, I picked up 4.

I don't go for the rainbow effect, but all of that yellow wire saved me a bundle.

Yeah it should be black.
I'm not that embarrased by it.

At least I'm not hauling around those fugly red fuzzy woofers around.

tom
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on September 21, 2005, 06:42:48 pm
Doug Fowler wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 14:06

H E L P

Can someone tell me how to explain to a small system operator why using this stuff is bad?  I am at a loss for words, other than "you look like a backwoods PA farmer when you pull those out".

I give up.  I don't know how to explain how amateurish this is.

Of course there are other obstacles (like basic stagecraft, neat cable runs, that sort of stuff) but this is really glaring.  Ugly piles of cables are bad enough, but when they're orange, well, you know what I'm talking about.


Doug,
Well, for 3/4 of the noobs out here, it's simply a matter of what's available.. and cheap. After all, they just blew their wad on a load of gear, and now they gotta connect it - somehow.
I'm going to take the other tack from Tom - and assume you're meaning AC..
I don't think most people even look at whether or not the Hardware store they shop at carries black - let alone the fact that 7/8 of the cables are sold to Homeowners and contractors who don't care anyway about color. IF we insisted on black more often as a total community, the stores DO Listen.
But.. as far as the Color thing - you might wish to explain to our listening audience what the issue is. WHY it is amateurish, and WHY the pro community in general frown at the practice. Obviously, I do what I can to spread the word, but the average guy will look at me, and say "what the hey is the big deal??", and the best I can say is it looks amateurish and highly visible? He typically says, "..BUT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE VISIBLE! SAFETY, RIGHT?" (Riiighttt..)  Rolling Eyes
What to do beyond doing it right myself...?
Regards,
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Lee Patzius on September 21, 2005, 07:24:52 pm
According to my wife, orange is making a comeback.

Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike McNany on September 21, 2005, 07:48:23 pm
Doug Fowler wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 17:06

H E L P

Can someone tell me how to explain to a small system operator why using this stuff is bad?  I am at a loss for words, other than "you look like a backwoods PA farmer when you pull those out".

I am at my wit's end with this.  There is someone locally that is very close to having a respectable package, but refuses to get rid of this crap (it's paid for, after all Smile, and still insists on stringing cables willy-nilly between racks, from inside each exposed rack, instead of either making or buying some simple XLR input/output panels which could be color coded to make persistent connections, using color coded XLR looms.

I give up.  I don't know how to explain how amateurish this is.

Of course there are other obstacles (like basic stagecraft, neat cable runs, that sort of stuff) but this is really glaring.  Ugly piles of cables are bad enough, but when they're orange, well, you know what I'm talking about.

-doug, Mr. "perpetually frustrated over this"


Doug,

About all you can do to push him a little in the right direction. Show him how a nicer, coherent presentation of the equipment can be a selling point for his company even for people without a clue. Since ANYBODY can figure out if something looks nice or looks clusterf**ked, keep the dayglo cables in the back out of site and any tangles, too. It's entertainment, appearances count. In the small operator stage myself, I see no major problem with safety colored AC cables that have to run from outlets to the using area, especially OUTSIDE. BUT I prefer to make my own out of black cable.

The first goal to teach him is the advantage of working easier and quicker, avoiding the brute force, stumbling approach. I.e., how:

a. neatly wrapping the excess cable around each monitor that may be moved means no (or less) rats's nest around the amp racks, which further means easier cable wrapup at the end of the night.
b. saving a hour of total labor between loadin to loadout means more true profit in less beverages bought, less assistant pay, more sleep, ect. AND allows for the inevitable "something is not right" corrective time.
c. simplifying setups means less stress figuring out HOW to wire the gig and allows more concentration on fixing those little (& not so little) problems that pop up.
d. having everything labeled plainly makes it easier finding the right cable AND allows helpers to actually help vice being in the way.
e. separating cables by type into their own containers really does make thing go smoother.

I KNOW you KNOW all this. The trick is getting the concept through to him, how an appoach like the above will allow him to avoid the crisis, flapping & flailing, beating of chests, and getting nothing done on time. The above are just some prime examples to teach him. Until he understands this, he won't see the big advantage of a simple I/O panel to stop reaching inside racks unnecessarily.  I'd say part of this is him realizing his time and efforts are worth something so he shouldn't waste either.

Mike McNany
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Doug Fowler on September 21, 2005, 08:37:48 pm
Hopefully everyone realizes I will point him to this thread :-)
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on September 21, 2005, 08:57:06 pm
Whats wrong with colorful extension cords? Smile

index.php/fa/2585/0/

But, really I never knew they made black power cords(or at least havent seem them). All my mic cables are black though.

Evan
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Brian Adams on September 21, 2005, 09:08:49 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 19:57

Whats wrong with colorful extension cords? Smile

index.php/fa/2585/0/

But, really I never knew they made black power cords(or at least havent seem them). All my mic cables are black though.

Evan



You're right, it seems black cords are tough to find in stores.  But they are made, I know because I've seen them.  I even have one black store-bought cord.  It's 15' long, either 14 or 16 ga, with molded ends.  But that's not one that travels with me, it's in the same place as all my orange and yellow molded end cords, and those only get used at home.  

Most of the cords I carry I made myself, with 500' of 12/3 SO.  I carry 2 manufactured cables, the kind with the lit outlets every few feet down the cable.  I think they're from CBI, but I can't remember anymore.  

The only cables I have that aren't black are 2 power strips, that get used only rarely, like when a guitar player forgets to bring their own stuff.  Oh well, at least the power strips are mostly black, but the cable on them is yellow.  But it doesn't matter, they hardly ever leave the case.

I recommend getting yourself some 12/3 or 14/3 and making all the cords you need.  Once you break it down it doesn't cost all that much, and you'll have really durable cables that will serve you for many years.  Plus they're black, and that's a good thing.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on September 21, 2005, 09:12:08 pm
Doug Fowler wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 17:37

Hopefully everyone realizes I will point him to this thread Smile


http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0009EOZ7Q.01-A1787XOD7Q2I4M._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Tell him he's nothing without glowing neon lamps at the female ends of his hot yellow power cables. Maybe he could put on a light show by swinging them in circles. Yahooooo!

-Bink

P.S. to the youngsters: "yahoo" used to mean hick or hillbilly. The sound of it being yelled was used in ads to sell Mountain Dew back in 1965. "...It'll tickle your innards!"
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Peter Frederiksen on September 21, 2005, 09:19:35 pm
Wow, it must be tough hiding all that yellow and orange stuff in the truss!
you can bulk buy black at any home depot etc
(I do use yellow......on my weed wacker)
Very Happy
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Brandon Burfeind on September 21, 2005, 10:07:34 pm
Black seems to say "professional" in almost every industry/business.  

When my dad was buying a Canon Digital Rebel (camera) he had to choose between black and silver.  I made him get the black because it is way more professional, and that's just hobby photography.  

A great majority of business computers and peripherals are black, although that is a relatively new trend.  They look nice.

We wear black suits.  Do you go to events (that require suits) in neon orange or pink suits?  that's a llittle extreme, but think about it.

black is just more professional.  whether its psychological or social, you have to admit it is.

anyway, enough rambling for me.


Brandon
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Reid on September 21, 2005, 10:08:39 pm
OK, I get it.

I yell at folks who insulate with electical tape rather than shrink.  Colored power cords would fall under this form of bigotry.

If someone send me a roll of black 10/3, say 500', I would make up all black power cards and "be the theater".
How come that never works on this site?

How many Thespian hours do I get for making "proper" extenders?

I do have a cord refit on my list ...
Right after a couple mics, a cool new Rane Parametric, a couple more amps, and another sub.

Tom "But if you close your eyes, it still sounds as good"

Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Jonathan Woytek on September 21, 2005, 10:22:00 pm
B. Adams wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 21:08

I recommend getting yourself some 12/3 or 14/3 and making all the cords you need.  Once you break it down it doesn't cost all that much, and you'll have really durable cables that will serve you for many years.  Plus they're black, and that's a good thing.


I make nearly all of my own AC extensions out of black 12/3 with black-and-white explosion-proof safety ends.  I also make my own twofers and fourfers out of similar high-grade components.  I learned what I do from doing theatre electric work before I did sound--anything non-black sticks out like a sore thumb on an electric over the stage or out in the house.  

My advice to anyone doing this, though, is to make absolutely sure that you wire things with some modicum of a standard!  Simple things like "white wire to white screw" and "make sure your grounds are bonded" seem to escape far too many.  A few assistants have been unpleasantly surprised by using a piece of electrical gear that they built without paying attention, and a few times *I* have been surprised by their work (nothing like grabbing a "hot" batten 30 feet in the air to wake one up).  

All that said, I do have a few brightly-colored extensions in the bin to run during outdoor shows, and I have a few white mic cables that some "roaming" vocalists prefer to help keep them from tripping over their own cord on a dark stage.  

jonathan
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on September 21, 2005, 10:53:18 pm
I've been looking for some cool colored extension cords but I can only find them in black.  Anyone know where to get 6/4 SOOW in yellow, orange or green?

index.php/fa/2587/0/
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on September 21, 2005, 11:01:22 pm
EWI Amps? 1000's, or 2000's? I like the fan cutout with battered fingerguard in the middle of that other roadcase, BTW..  Very Happy
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Winston Gamble on September 21, 2005, 11:05:58 pm
I guess I'm half professional, half amatuer or maybe just half assed. I have one yellow 50' 12/3 to which I added a four gang box for running to the drum area which I got for free when my sister didn't want to fix a bad end. From there I have all black 12/3 and 14/3 runs for anything on stage or in the public eye to back line, powered speakers, amp rack and front of house. That was the deal when I could run everything off one 15 amp breaker. Later on I needed 100' for an outdoor party and Home Despot was the only option for 10/3 late on a Saturday. That cord has now been cut into two 25' and one 50' sections for more flexibility and two runs of two circuits to the drum area.

Would I like to have all black? Sure, I to think it looks more professional but for many of us lounge lizards using what we have is the only way to limit how much we lose or maximize what little we make at this level.

Winston
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Manchester on September 21, 2005, 11:29:10 pm
I Have 3 12/3 extension cords for main power, 2 yellow ones, one 25 and one 100 feet, and a new orange one that's 85 feet long and bright neon orange, but damn, for $30 with a 2' 12/3 3 outlet splitter included i couldn't pass it up. for stage power and runs to foh i use your standard 16/3 orange extension cord. thing is most venues I work couldn't care less, and my cables are typically routed along walls and under gaff tape so nobody notices them anyway. as for my FOH it is very neat. 1 snake loomed with mesh goes from rack to board with a 1.5' fanout on the end, 2 power cables from the rack, one to board and one to the wall, and one xlr jack on the back to the amp racks. all cables on fanout are labled. My mixer case also has a small half-doghouse on the back. I am pretty picky about keeping things organized at foh and don't like having a bunch of misc. crap laying around. almost all of my racks have i/o panels on them or i am sure to pile the cables behind them out of view. Mic cables are all black, they get stored in the left half of my cable bag, speaker cables on the right all neatly wrapped and tied with velcro. That's about all i can think of with my rig.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on September 21, 2005, 11:35:34 pm
Mike AB [Mike Butler

 wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 20:01]EWI Amps? 1000's, or 2000's? I like the fan cutout with battered fingerguard in the middle of that other roadcase, BTW..  Very Happy



E&W PS 2000s for monitors
E&W ES 2000s for HF drivers

Most people aren't familiar with these amps.  I love them.  Unfortunately Mark Hellinger is no longer keeping them in stock which is a bummer because I wanted to pick up a couple more.

These are both the same amp with different front panels and the PS has some weird "Quick tone" switch that I don't use so they are actually the same the way that I have them set up.

That road case carries two PW4000 power supplies, weighs about 4,000,000 lbs or at least thats what it feels like.  It came with the "Battered fingerguard in the middle" pre-installed for me.  I think it actually has a matched left/right pair.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on September 21, 2005, 11:45:19 pm
Winston wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 20:05

I guess I'm half professional, half amatuer or maybe just half assed. I have one yellow 50' 12/3 to which I added a four gang box for running to the drum area which I got for free when my sister didn't want to fix a bad end. From there I have all black 12/3 and 14/3 runs for anything on stage or in the public eye to back line, powered speakers, amp rack and front of house. That was the deal when I could run everything off one 15 amp breaker. Later on I needed 100' for an outdoor party and Home Despot was the only option for 10/3 late on a Saturday. That cord has now been cut into two 25' and one 50' sections for more flexibility and two runs of two circuits to the drum area.

Would I like to have all black? Sure, I to think it looks more professional but for many of us lounge lizards using what we have is the only way to limit how much we lose or maximize what little we make at this level.

Winston


It doesn't cost very much to upgrade to nice black SO cable, especially for runs from FOH to the distro.  You would be amazed how you can charge more just with an extra nice appearance and actually make a lot more money.  Don't feel that just because you have smaller budgets than the big boys that you can't look as good or better and make some good profit too.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Andy Peters on September 22, 2005, 12:05:22 am
Brandon Burfeind wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 19:07

Black seems to say "professional" in almost every industry/business.  

When my dad was buying a Canon Digital Rebel (camera) he had to choose between black and silver.  I made him get the black because it is way more professional, and that's just hobby photography.  

A great majority of business computers and peripherals are black, although that is a relatively new trend.  They look nice.

black is just more professional.  whether its psychological or social, you have to admit it is.


Some snark on Slashdot noted that Lenovo will be selling an IBM ThinkPad in a titanium case.  This marks a wide departure from the "Any color you want, as long as it's black" ThinkPad tradition.  (Disclaimer: this message is being posted from a ThinkPad G40.)  As you can imagine, the Slashdotters posted all sorts of "world is coming to an end" responses to this (non-) news, with the basic point being "ThinkPads are professional, and should be black."  Thus, you have some people who agree with you!

-a
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Brian Adams on September 22, 2005, 12:33:16 am
LOUDMUSIC wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 21:53

I've been looking for some cool colored extension cords but I can only find them in black.  Anyone know where to get 6/4 SOOW in yellow, orange or green?

index.php/fa/2587/0/


Actually, I've seen 6/4 in yellow, but not all that often.  Must be for industrial applications, I'm guessing.  But even usually in those cases it's black, so I don't know.  As for the other colors, you might be out of luck. Wink
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tim Padrick on September 22, 2005, 02:32:58 am
I love my colored mic cables, but my AC is black (except for my 100' blue FOH run).  I used SJ because at the time I did not know that you're supposed to use SO.  But at my level, it's not a problem.  http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/ACcables/ACcables.htm
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Chapin on September 22, 2005, 03:37:55 am
All my power cables and speaker cables are black. I apologize, however, for the fact that my 5- to 10-foot balanced patch cables are all red. My 5-foot inserts are blue. I never have any problem figuring out which cable to grab, even in the dark. BTW, if it'll make you feel better, my unbalanced patch cables are black. All of this stuff resides behind the rack at FOH, and any excess is coiled inside the rack. It's a beautiful thing. With the color-coded ends, it takes me less than 60 seconds to patch the rack to the board. All the amp inputs and outputs are on panels on the back of the amp racks, color coded as well. No, I'm not a pro, I'm just anal. And even as such, the utility of quick cable identification outweighs my fear of apparent dorkiness.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike McNany on September 22, 2005, 11:49:20 am
Evan, I see you added some quality plugs on some of those thin cables. Save the plugs and throw out the cables (or put el cheapo plugs on them and save them for home use). Your cables look a little thin, like that one on the stand up reel (I have the same one ;>). You should check each cable (this goes for all us low ball lounge lizards) and if it's not at least 14ga, you should leave it at home.

While I also push for black AC cabling for a professional appearance, I think it's even more important to get rid of the lesser (higher) gage cabling. Save the orange 16ga for yard & Christmas lights.

Black 12/3 cable can be had for $.48/foot at my small local electric supply store. Making more extensions (maybe 10ga) and ones with duplex & quad boxes are in my near future.

Mike McNany
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Allen Alonzo (tazada) on September 22, 2005, 02:19:47 pm
Like others, I ran across some 100' #12 extension cables.  I kept 2 for long Edison power runs, and cut up two to make 8 quad boxes for stage feeds, 25' each, another two I cut in half and made 50' cords, the other same but 4 x 25Ft.  All are yellow now, but......

Where I used to work, we had a wire machine and only stocked white wire, it would cut to length and dye them any color.  My plan is to get some of this dye in black and just dye my cables black, would I be cool then???

BTW, I just bought 100' of 12/3 Black SO to lay with my drive and signal snake to look "professional"

Allen
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Peter Møller on September 22, 2005, 02:21:22 pm
95% of my wiring is black SOJ...

The rest is yellow extension cords, but only in use when someone wants to borrow an extensioncord for their beer cooler, hotdog cooker or whatever..

Good thing about the yellow ones is that its no big deal if people run off with them Smile.. I got tired of having to replace the black SOJ cords everytime someone borrowed a cable and "forgot" to return it..

/peter
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on September 22, 2005, 03:20:34 pm
Mike McNany wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 11:49

Evan, I see you added some quality plugs on some of those thin cables. Save the plugs and throw out the cables (or put el cheapo plugs on them and save them for home use). Your cables look a little thin, like that one on the stand up reel (I have the same one ;>). You should check each cable (this goes for all us low ball lounge lizards) and if it's not at least 14ga, you should leave it at home.

While I also push for black AC cabling for a professional appearance, I think it's even more important to get rid of the lesser (higher) gage cabling. Save the orange 16ga for yard & Christmas lights.

Black 12/3 cable can be had for $.48/foot at my small local electric supply store. Making more extensions (maybe 10ga) and ones with duplex & quad boxes are in my near future.

Mike McNany


Hi Mike. The 16 gauge cables only get used for backline and such. I may switch over to better/black cables once I have a need for it, but for 99% of the acts I do they could care less.

I run everything else off of the 12 gauge cords on the reels though. The 100' one(blue) is normally for FOH, and the 50' one(yellow) is for the amps.


Quote:

Tom M. wrote: as for my FOH it is very neat. 1 snake loomed with mesh goes from rack to board with a 1.5' fanout on the end, 2 power cables from the rack, one to board and one to the wall, and one xlr jack on the back to the amp racks. all cables on fanout are labled. My mixer case also has a small half-doghouse on the back. I am pretty picky about keeping things organized at foh and don't like having a bunch of misc. crap laying around.


You hate my rack.  Very Happy

index.php/fa/2595/0/
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on September 22, 2005, 04:09:21 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 12:20



You hate my rack.  Very Happy

index.php/fa/2595/0/

Not so much the rack. but the (UN)steady foundation underneath that! Milk Crates went out with the '80's!!
Regards,
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Dave Dermont on September 22, 2005, 05:27:15 pm
Mike AB Mike Butler wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 15:09


Milk Crates went out with the '80's!!



Naw, milk crates are still cool. You just need to use ones from dairies that are now out of business. That makes them "vintage".  Very Happy

If you really want to use some cool crates, try finding some wire ones.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Dave Dermont on September 22, 2005, 05:47:58 pm
I don't believe some of you people are trying to defend the use those hideous yellow, orange, and pink power cables.

Man, talk about not "getting it".

You really need to get to appreciate the beauty of a nicely dressed cable run.

It must be some sort of a "Musician Thing".  Very Happy I mean that in a nice way!  Very Happy

The brightly colored Loew's Depot cable are nice if you want to keep from running over the cable with your electric lawn mower, but it's got no place on a stage. None. Nope. Nada. Zip.

I know of one upscale venue where I have mixed weddings that expressly FORBIDS the use of anything other than black cables.

Few things are more ghetto than random bird's nests of cable all over the stage, at FOH, and who knows where else.

Not to mention (but I'll mention it anyway) the fact that the memory in the plastic insulation of these kinds of cables is so strong, it's months before you can get one to lay (lie?) flat.

Let's get with it people!

Dave "friends don't let friends use orange power cable" Dermont
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike McNany on September 22, 2005, 06:02:50 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 15:20



You hate my rack.  Very Happy

index.php/fa/2595/0/


While the comment was to Tom, count me in, too. I hate your rack.

Of course the milk crate foundation is a destroyed mixer (Peavey RQ series, I see) in the making. But you need to get or make (far cheaper) several 2 & 3 foot mic cables for patching AND some 5/6 foot ones for the same. Not only looks neater but they can be easily loomed (or not) and coiled up, left in the racks for transport with one end connected. I went through a spiral wrap loom phase, major pain in the wrist to change, harder to coil but easy to have cables come out along the length. Then the split corragated tubing phase, still hard to coil. Eventually moving to several snakes for inserts & phone plug patching and also XLR looms using short velcro wraps every 9-10 inches, REAL easy to coil. Each snake gets wrapped with a big velcro scrap and left coiled all hooked up in the rack. That way you only have to connect one end of the cables, cutting the rack cabling time in half. Bottom line: shorty XLR cables make for easy wrapping, no tangling, and no rats' nest.

Mike McNany
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Reid on September 22, 2005, 06:05:27 pm
AnotherDave wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 16:47

I don't believe some of you people are trying to defend the use those hideous yellow, orange, and pink power cables.

Man, talk about not "getting it".

You really need to get to appreciate the beauty of a nicely dressed cable run.

It must be some sort of a "Musician Thing".  Very Happy I mean that in a nice way!  Very Happy

The brightly colored Loew's Depot cable are nice if you want to keep from running over the cable with your electric lawn mower, but it's got no place on a stage. None. Nope. Nada. Zip.

I know of one upscale venue where I have mixed weddings that expressly FORBIDS the use of anything other than black cables.

Few things are more ghetto than random bird's nests of cable all over the stage, at FOH, and who knows where else.

Not to mention (but I'll mention it anyway) the fact that the memory in the plastic insulation of these kinds of cables is so strong, it's months before you can get one to lay (lie?) flat.

Let's get with it people!

Dave "friends don't let friends use orange power cable" Dermont


Why is it I suddenly feel naked and ashamed?  Embarassed
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords-my mess
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 22, 2005, 06:13:15 pm
Here is one of my old messes-It is of my first monitor console (A Kelsey 20 channel that was modified into a 20x6) at a gig for Wrathchild America-back in the 80's.

index.php/fa/2596/0/
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Eric Strand on September 22, 2005, 06:33:21 pm
Brandon Burfeind wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 19:07

Black seems to say "professional" in almost every industry/business.  

When my dad was buying a Canon Digital Rebel (camera) he had to choose between black and silver.  I made him get the black because it is way more professional, and that's just hobby photography.  



Hate to jump back a little on this, but you're wrong on this one. Check out Canon's high-end super-drool-worthy "L" series lenses. They're all white. If you ever see a photo of a group of photo-journalists (especially sports), you'll pick them out instantly. That's probably the point. for example . .

index.php/fa/2597/0/
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Jonathan Woytek on September 22, 2005, 07:42:43 pm
A number of years ago, I bought myself 1000' of single-pair mic cable (small diameter).  It was something along the lines of Belden 9452, 1800B or 1801B (I'd honestly have to go and look at the box to see its designation).  I think 1000' of it ran me maybe $300-ish or so.  That was one of the best investments I've made in terms of interconnection systems, and probably one of the top ten investments in infrastructure that I could make.  Interconnect snakes, inter- and intra-rack patch cables and snakes, special adapters, and on and on and on....  I still have a few hundred feet of the stuff left, and it keeps getting used for all sorts of things.  

Buy some cable, velcro, shrink tubing, appropriate connectors, and go to town.  You'll be a happier person when you're finished.  Smile  

My current project is to make some multipin interconnect snakes, so that when I finally get a new board, I can reduce my setup time some more.

jonathan
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on September 22, 2005, 08:30:42 pm
Mike McNany wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 18:02

Evan Kirkendall wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 15:20



You hate my rack.  Very Happy

index.php/fa/2595/0/


While the comment was to Tom, count me in, too. I hate your rack.

Of course the milk crate foundation is a destroyed mixer (Peavey RQ series, I see) in the making. But you need to get or make (far cheaper) several 2 & 3 foot mic cables for patching AND some 5/6 foot ones for the same. Not only looks neater but they can be easily loomed (or not) and coiled up, left in the racks for transport with one end connected. I went through a spiral wrap loom phase, major pain in the wrist to change, harder to coil but easy to have cables come out along the length. Then the split corragated tubing phase, still hard to coil. Eventually moving to several snakes for inserts & phone plug patching and also XLR looms using short velcro wraps every 9-10 inches, REAL easy to coil. Each snake gets wrapped with a big velcro scrap and left coiled all hooked up in the rack. That way you only have to connect one end of the cables, cutting the rack cabling time in half. Bottom line: shorty XLR cables make for easy wrapping, no tangling, and no rats' nest.

Mike McNany



Yeah, the rack is a mess. But, I keep changing its config. for each show I do. Sometimes is for mons, others for mains. One of these days Im gonna buy a new rack, get more gear, and make it look pretty.

As for the "milk crate foundation is a destroyed mixer in the making," yes it could be. I only set it up like that in my basement though. At shows I have a nice table to put the rack and board on. It just works for my basement. Doesnt take up a lot of space and works for the "home Theatre" system. Smile

index.php/fa/2598/0/
Title: Re: How do you keep the books on the shelves?
Post by: Ryan Lantzy on September 22, 2005, 10:38:59 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 20:30



index.php/fa/2598/0/



Wow Evan.  Where is the big projection screen?  Very Happy

I never really thought about using my stuff for home theater.  Somehow, I don't think 4 LA400s would be the best thing for a 100 year old house's foundation.  Twisted Evil

Still, my collegue often jokes that he wants installed KF940s for his home theater subs. hahahahaha.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: eric (e.t.) torgerson on September 23, 2005, 12:07:57 am
Don't feel bad. I'm a little embarrassed to say that half my mic cables are Canare Quad Blue. This is so that the other soundpeople can tell that I did the gig when they see it on TV. Also whenever the blue mic cables get loaned out I usually get them back. My polarity reversers and special adapter cables are red (for danger). My AC is mostly black with little lights on the quad boxes or molded plugs. For stage power I use Lex E-strings. They are black 12/3, very flexible and have cool green LEDs on every outlet. There are also 50' & 100' yellow (for caution) 12/3s in the box if things get wild.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on September 23, 2005, 12:33:30 am
I try to keep my cables neat and organized butI have a bad habit of keeping to much stuff around me like large water containers and other misc. items.
index.php/fa/2600/0/
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Jason Ellis on September 23, 2005, 01:09:30 am
Yep too much free time on my hands! I'm all for black only power cabling, and in reference to the above photographers, canon thinks white is nice, but I'm an old nikon man, and well nikons are black! (no longer true entirely, to keep up with Canon's marketing [the above image was staged following an event, anyone with a canon was handed $50 to bunch up for a picture!] they have a few "gray" lenses...not that brands matter, just link they don't matter here, good eyes, ears, and minds generate good output.

index.php/fa/2601/0/
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on September 23, 2005, 11:22:27 am
Jason Ellis wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 22:09

Yep too much free time on my hands! I'm all for black only power cabling, and in reference to the above photographers, canon thinks white is nice, but I'm an old nikon man, and well nikons are black! (no longer true entirely, to keep up with Canon's marketing [the above image was staged following an event, anyone with a canon was handed $50 to bunch up for a picture!] they have a few "gray" lenses...not that brands matter, just link they don't matter here, good eyes, ears, and minds generate good output.

index.php/fa/2601/0/


My sound is great, my photography and photo editing skills leave a lot to be desired.  Very Happy
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Harold Mayo on September 23, 2005, 12:17:53 pm
Lee Patzius wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 16:24

According to my wife, orange is making a comeback.




It is....my 'new' wardrobe has lots of orange   Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Reid on September 23, 2005, 12:24:54 pm
Harold Mayo wrote on Fri, 23 September 2005 11:17

Lee Patzius wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 16:24

According to my wife, orange is making a comeback.




It is....my 'new' wardrobe has lots of orange   Rolling Eyes



Or is it just close to pumpkin season?
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Jim Duyck on September 23, 2005, 12:59:29 pm
index.php/fa/2602/0/

Horray for cable runs to your anus...I mean, for anal cable runs!!!!  Arrgghh, I can't stand a mess, whether it be at FOH, behind the amp rack, or on stage.  I'm always making a face at someone who's been untidy...

Just {cough} ignore the yellow splitters... Rolling Eyes

But seriously, I have Google'd 'til I was sick of it, trying to find a good deal on black 10/3 and 12/3 25' & 50' foot cables at a decent price, that didn't seem to be upcharging you for them being black (jerks...).  So sadly, our AC cables are a bright rainbow that I loath getting out of the box every time...

So does anyone know of a place online where I could order some black ac cables at a good $$$????  I wanna change Crying or Very Sad Really, I do.... Embarassed

Very Happy
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on September 23, 2005, 03:03:06 pm
Man Jim, that rack must be a bitch to move. 5 RMX amps? Jeeze. I hate moving my rack with 2 rmx's. Smile

Of course, I plan on going PLX one of these days...

Evan "likes things light" Kirkendall
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Duffy on September 23, 2005, 03:30:07 pm
I'm in the middle of upgrading to 12/3 SO, and also did the googling for prices.

In roughly desending order.

McMaster-Carr : 98cents + tax per foot. Cheaper if you get a 250' reel.  The best shipping times of anywhere on line (at least for the left coast).

Home Depot : 97cents + tax per foot.
HD also has the yellow! 12/3 SO that is rated for 190F heat if you want to do gigs at the firehouse. 2 out of 3 stores near me were out of stock, I got the last 14 foot of the remaining reel at the other.

eBay : seller "hayshakers"  has 12/3 SO for 82 cents.  Shipping cost unknown.

ProductionAdvantageOnline : 250' reels are nicely priced.
Camel Traders : Their website's price list has been offline for a couple of weeks, it came back, and they have the best price for a 250' reel. Call them up, they seem very friendly and knowledgable.

CamelTraders also has Neutrik Powercons if you want to go that route. I'm following Tim Padrick's example and wiring all my racks for PowerCon.

If you have an electrical supply shop (i.e. where the contractors buy from) near you, they may have the best prices on whole reels.

Tom.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Dave Unger on September 23, 2005, 04:57:49 pm
Hey guys,

I belive it is against NEC code to use anything but black cables.  I tried to look it up but the code is so dense I gave up.  This is for more than aesthetic reasons.  Remember electicity causes heat, heat leads to fire, fire is bad. Evil or Very Mad

d
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike McNany on September 23, 2005, 05:06:55 pm
Jim Duyck wrote on Fri, 23 September 2005 12:59

index.php/fa/2602/0/

I can't stand a mess, whether it be at FOH, behind the amp rack, or on stage.  I'm always making a face at someone who's been untidy...



Jim,

Very nice cabling. If only those pieces of ripped off masking tape weren't the labling system, kinda detracts from the asthetic beauty & professional look  Twisted Evil

Mike McNany
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Jeff Wayne (J.W.) on September 23, 2005, 06:34:54 pm
Dave Unger wrote on Fri, 23 September 2005 15:57

Hey guys,

I belive it is against NEC code to use anything but black cables.  I tried to look it up but the code is so dense I gave up.  This is for more than aesthetic reasons.  Remember electicity causes heat, heat leads to fire, fire is bad. Evil or Very Mad

d
  Dave.This doesn't make any sense to me.Can you explain your reasoning on this?
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Eric Snodgrass on September 23, 2005, 07:02:08 pm
Dave Unger wrote on Fri, 23 September 2005 13:57

Hey guys,

I belive it is against NEC code to use anything but black cables.  I tried to look it up but the code is so dense I gave up.  This is for more than aesthetic reasons.  Remember electicity causes heat, heat leads to fire, fire is bad. Evil or Very Mad

d

I concur with Jeff.  Did you mean to say that it is against NEC code to use black?  I'd have a hard time believing there is an electrical code specifying black-only cable.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on September 23, 2005, 07:33:33 pm
Jim Duyck wrote on Fri, 23 September 2005 09:59

index.php/fa/2602/0/

Horray for cable runs to your anus...I mean, for anal cable runs!!!!  Arrgghh, I can't stand a mess, whether it be at FOH, behind the amp rack, or on stage.  I'm always making a face at someone who's been untidy...
Very Happy

Dude,
I agree with Mike McN. - if you're that anal, you might want to replace the Masking Tape "label" with a Professional P-Touch Label. At less than $70, it's an investment you can afford to make to look more professional..  Very Happy
http://www.advizia.com/accountimages/145/1574/hires/PT-1950.jpg
http://www.advizia.com/brother/modelDetail.asp?PkgID=383859& amp;User=ptouch&Rnd=320
Regards,
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Reid on September 23, 2005, 10:57:42 pm
Hey Mike!
Love my P-touch.  
Wouldn't it be cool if they made a P-touch that printed on shrink tube?

Sure beats printing the label, clear shrink over the label.

tom

Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Jim Duyck on September 23, 2005, 11:48:47 pm
 Rolling Eyes ... Embarassed ... I just recently re-wired the rack with the panel, so the not so anal labels are just to help keep the other guys in the band from making my life harder...they gave me a hard time, too, about 'em, since I'm always griping about neatness.

No need to worry, I'll take care of that soon enough... Very Happy

Evan, the rack even has a PLX, too, that's hard to see...that puts it at around 300 lbs with the Anvil case... Shocked ...thankfully, there's 5 of us to lug it around, and our trailer has a ramp.

And thanks for all the cable pricing...I'm going hunting right now...
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Reid on September 24, 2005, 01:19:09 am
Quote:

And thanks for all the cable pricing...I'm going hunting right now...


yup, me too.

Only mom said I had to pay for someone's college this quarter and I can't get any more toys.  Good thing I kept that paper route.  She doesn't know about that  Very Happy

Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Joe Adam on September 24, 2005, 11:31:48 am
I'm surpised no-one here has mentioned cabling in the UK.  At least mains wise I see a lot of blue cabling.  It goes nicely with the big blue CeeForm connectors.  I know for a fact that you can't get those in black

Joe
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Dave Unger on September 24, 2005, 02:00:30 pm
Hi guys,

 What I was trying to say is that NEC code states that you must use SO or SJ cable of at least 12 gauge in a temporary installation for 120v.  SO and SJ seldom come in orange.  Inspectors will look at your orange cables and know immeadiatly that they are 12 gauge.
 The other nice thing about SO or SJ is the insulation.  They can handle more amps before burning up.  Plus you can drive a truck over them.  Your orange 16 gauge would be toast under a truck tire!

Hope this clarifies my point.

d
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Alex Schultz on September 24, 2005, 05:02:30 pm
Hey Tom,

Perhaps this is what you wish for? Looks kinda cool Very Happy  

[/url]http://www.wiremarkersplus.com/nelco_wire_marker.cfm[/url]

Best of days
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Eric Snodgrass on September 24, 2005, 06:23:10 pm
Dave Unger wrote on Sat, 24 September 2005 11:00

Hi guys,

 What I was trying to say is that NEC code states that you must use SO or SJ cable of at least 12 gauge in a temporary installation for 120v.  SO and SJ seldom come in orange.  Inspectors will look at your orange cables and know immeadiatly that they are 12 gauge.
 The other nice thing about SO or SJ is the insulation.  They can handle more amps before burning up.  Plus you can drive a truck over them.  Your orange 16 gauge would be toast under a truck tire!

Hope this clarifies my point.

d

Consider yourself clairified.  
As clear as an unmuddied lake.
As clear as an azure-blue sky.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Ron Hebbard on September 24, 2005, 08:07:19 pm
Dave Unger wrote on Sat, 24 September 2005 19:00

    Inspectors will look at your orange cables and know immeadiatly that they are 12 gauge.
Hope this clarifies my point.

d

Whoops!

Hi Dave;
Are you sure you didn't mean that the inspectors would know that the orange cords were NOT 12 gauge?

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Dave Unger on September 24, 2005, 09:08:50 pm
ooops I meant 16 of course.


Embarassed

d
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: David Buckley on September 25, 2005, 06:13:31 am
Joe wrote on Sun, 25 September 2005 03:31

I'm surpised no-one here has mentioned cabling in the UK.  At least mains wise I see a lot of blue cabling.  It goes nicely with the big blue CeeForm connectors.  I know for a fact that you can't get those in black


All my mains cables are blue, not just beacause it matches the C17s, but the cable is "Arctic" cable, as used on building sites, and it stays flexible when it gets cold, unlike "ordinary" PVC stuff.

My XLR speaker cables are orange, so that its trivially easy to give people instructions.  I'm part speakon, so for those cables colour is less important, so now I'm happy to have black speaker cables.

Black C17s - here, mainly used by lampy type folks...
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Scott Van Den Elzen on September 25, 2005, 07:44:28 am
I've been lurking here forever and appreciate all the great advice.  

I found a source for 12/3 SOOW for $.53 per foot with no cut charge for less than a whole spool.  (Is there a reason SO would be preferred to SOO?)

Cheap SOOW

As far as whether or not a company looks professional with rainbow colored cables, I thought the Lounge was for folks who are NOT pros.   Smile

That being said, you've all embarrassed me  Embarassed into ordering 500 feet of cable so I can get my new cords made and be one step closer to being a "Pro."   Very Happy
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Simon Tucker on September 25, 2005, 09:07:29 am
Joe wrote on Sat, 24 September 2005 16:31

I know for a fact that you can't get those in black


Hi Joe,

Actually, you can get black ceeform connectors - designed to be inconspicuous mainly for television and on stage use.

http://www.aclighting.co.uk/products/tourmate/ebony_print.ht m

They do still have some blue to comply with electrical regulations;  but when the connectors are joined the amount of blue you see is minimal.

Simon
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: charles clark on September 25, 2005, 01:27:27 pm
Simon T wrote on Sun, 25 September 2005 14:07

Joe wrote on Sat, 24 September 2005 16:31

I know for a fact that you can't get those in black


Hi Joe,

Actually, you can get black ceeform connectors - designed to be inconspicuous mainly for television and on stage use.

 http://www.aclighting.co.uk/products/tourmate/ebony_print.ht m

They do still have some blue to comply with electrical regulations;  but when the connectors are joined the amount of blue you see is minimal.

Simon


Thanks for posting that info...I have a whole case of the male connectors like this (industrial scrap quantity of about 50 pieces, but in good condition), but didn't know how to find the female ones. Now I can start searching and buy a few!
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Brandon Burfeind on September 25, 2005, 11:02:51 pm
Eric Strand wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 17:33


Hate to jump back a little on this, but you're wrong on this one. Check out Canon's high-end super-drool-worthy "L" series lenses. They're all white. If you ever see a photo of a group of photo-journalists (especially sports), you'll pick them out instantly. That's probably the point. for example . .



Good call, i actually thought about that right after i posted.  I mostly was refering to the difference between the silver and black rebels.  im sure there are professional niches where a different color is standard, but black seems to be the most common professional standard.

brandon
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Doug Fowler on September 26, 2005, 12:37:19 pm
Thread drift:

Back to the original premise:

Yes, Whirlwind multicores come in "blue".  CeeForm comes in "blue".
Big time players use these and they're not "black".

But the original premise is this:

When you use orange or yellow extension "cords", it screams "I don't really know what I'm doing".  Add to this poor stagecraft and there should be no doubt in anyone's mind this person is a hobbyist or just doesn't care.  

This is about perception.  Even the part timers, I should think, would want to present themselves in the best light possible.  

Ask ANYONE stepping off a bus (or even a van) how they would feel if their first impression is a pile of dirty orange extension cords strung willy-nilly.  Smart money says "these guys are clueless and I'm in for a long, long day".

I don't understand how people who take pride in their work otherwise continue to do this.  It's the first sure sign of "hobbyist".  Yeah, I know this is the Lounge but even so, don't you have enough pride in your work to at least attempt to apply professional standards to your work wherever possible?

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE GEAR IN YOUR RACKS.

IT'S ABOUT INTERCONNECT, PACKAGING, AND ATTITUDE.  

If I were building a small PA from scratch, I would decide on interconnect and packaging first.  What money is left would dictate what goes in the racks.  

But as we all know, backwoods PA farmers save the interconnect and packaging for the end of the process, and are proud to trot out racks with the rear exposed (not always bad, depending on how tidy you are) and a nasty Gordian Knot of cables.

Real Guys, even working in bars (yes you can be a Real Guy too if you are working bars), present a tidy package with any mess concealed.  Console doghouses are very good for this.  You can't really tidy that collection of inputs, outputs, and insertables very well, but you can sure as hell hide it.

Same goes for racks:  it's really easy to tidy up amp racks and leave them exposed.  But your drive/insertables/fx racks, they need to be covered in the rear.  Hell, if nothing else leave a space at the bottom, store your looms connected in the rear of the rack, and pull it to the mixer when you set up.

This is more of a rant about perception and general work ethic than anything else.

I have to deal with this locally on occasion, and it never ceases to amaze me how local guys don't think this is important.  I'm sure they are equally amazed by my frustration at their not "getting it".

Like AP said, maybe I'm mudwrestling with a pig. :-)

Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on September 26, 2005, 12:51:14 pm
Doug Fowler wrote on Mon, 26 September 2005 09:37



Same goes for racks:  it's really easy to tidy up amp racks and leave them exposed.  But your drive/insertables/fx racks, they need to be covered in the rear.  Hell, if nothing else leave a space at the bottom, store your looms connected in the rear of the rack, and pull it to the mixer when you set up.





We try our best to keep our racks neat and organized but when working gigs outside in 115' weather we can't have the backs of our racks covered, we'll lose too many pieces of gear to the heat.  In fact in some cases we have to have giant fans blowing through our amps racks just to keep them reasonable, they never really run cool in that kind of weather.  There is one company out here that uses Soundcraft Series 5 consoles and they have to put big fans in front of the power supplies too.  Since most of the country is in more moderate climates all of the above suggestions are great.  Just not here in Phoenix.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Ron Hebbard on September 26, 2005, 12:53:25 pm
Hello Doug;

Just to keep this brief and to the point.

The orange, yellow and whatever colored, plastic jobbies normally don't lay well on the floor and then there's always the inevitable layers of duct tape.

People also ought to take pride in how they tape cables in place AND learn to take up the tape prior to ripping up the cables.

Possibly we ought to drift over to wrapping cords around elbows, vs. over and undering and / or figure eighting, and how this affects the lay of the cables.

Even something as simple as a piece of black cloth can make a quick world of difference in the presented appearance of the back of a rack or console.

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on September 26, 2005, 01:37:23 pm
LOUDMUSIC wrote on Mon, 26 September 2005 09:51

Doug Fowler wrote on Mon, 26 September 2005 09:37



Same goes for racks:  it's really easy to tidy up amp racks and leave them exposed.  But your drive/insertables/fx racks, they need to be covered in the rear.  Hell, if nothing else leave a space at the bottom, store your looms connected in the rear of the rack, and pull it to the mixer when you set up.





We try our best to keep our racks neat and organized but when working gigs outside in 115' weather we can't have the backs of our racks covered, we'll lose too many pieces of gear to the heat.  In fact in some cases we have to have giant fans blowing through our amps racks just to keep them reasonable, they never really run cool in that kind of weather.  There is one company out here that uses Soundcraft Series 5 consoles and they have to put big fans in front of the power supplies too.  Since most of the country is in more moderate climates all of the above suggestions are great.  Just not here in Phoenix.


I don't think Doug was saying enclose the racks. What he was saying that it's a good idea to route cords, bundle up excess lengths, and cover up the things you can't bundle neatly. Sure, temperature, safety, access and extra cost are all priorities and issues, it's just that too many folks use these as an excuse for poor housekeeping - instead of tidying up. Even just a little organization can go a loonngg way in making the appearance of competency, and I think Doug is right in suggesting this..
Regards,
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on September 26, 2005, 01:51:12 pm
Thanks for your clarification. I admit I still use grey snakes, though.. but I am thinking about some indelible dye..  Laughing
The work ethic thing is spot on. It takes time to be organized, and too many run from gig to gig without doing so. While it does take education (read awareness-building here), the sales stores sure don't practice it (ever tried to go in and get patch bays, panels, and even road cases from a typical mom and pop muso store?).
I just did a sunday morning gig with a group that showed up with their powered Mackoid stuff. The little gal who ran their sound was complaining there was a bent fader. So I was lucky enough to get that straighted without breaking it (whew). They pull out an RMX amp with bent ears, no road case, and their cables and snake were thrown pell-mell into a rubbermaid container that couldn't bear the weight, so the handles were broken, and the container UNcarryable. I asked how come the console didn't have a case, and offered my services on the spot, and the response I got was, "oh we're working on that..."
Sorry for the length, but this all made for a miserable gig..
Regards,
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Craig Leerman on September 26, 2005, 03:19:02 pm
Quote:


Can someone tell me how to explain to a small system operator why using this stuff is bad? I am at a loss for words, other than "you look like a backwoods PA farmer when you pull those out".

I am at my wit's end with this. There is someone locally that is very close to having a respectable package, but refuses to get rid of this crap (it's paid for, after all Smile, and still insists on stringing cables willy-nilly between racks, from inside each exposed rack, instead of either making or buying some simple XLR input/output panels which could be color coded to make persistent connections, using color coded XLR looms.

I give up. I don't know how to explain how amateurish this is.



While hardware store bought extentions cords look amateurish, in many cases they are against the code as well.

The NEC requires "type S" or "EXTRA HARD SERVICE" cable to be used in a theater when you need lengths over 3 feet,  in areas where the cables could be walked on. In a standard meeting room situation (not a theater proper) the code is a bit more lax and allows you to use "SJ" cables.

Standard orange extention cords are usually rated as " type SV" or "LIGHT DUTY". They have a thin outer jacket of insulation, and are not very rugged.  Most Orange hardware store cords are not to be used inside a theater, hotel ballroom, or other assembly area.  

The best thing to do is to point out how easy and inexpensive it is to make your own cords. 12 gauge Black colored Type S or SJ cable can be bought in reels for very little, at either a hardware store or electrical supply house. Good Edison plugs are not that expensive either. It takes very little skill to attach the plugs on a cable. The completed cables not only are more durable and better looking than orange cords, but in many cases are CHEAPER than buying an orange cord with molded ends from a hardware store!

And, by making cables yourself, a person can make them any length they see fit, and not have to settle for the 25', 50' and 100' lengths that hardware cords come in.

Craig



Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Liam Flynn on September 26, 2005, 03:23:16 pm
 All issues of appearance aside, having things organized and labelled clearly makes setup, teardown, and troubleshooting much easier. Trying to follow a cable through a tangle to see if it is patched right or to replace it is a major time-waster. Not to mention, organization cuts your mis-patching by a big margin.

It also makes using new helpers easier. Those with minimal experience can hopefully at least read, and those with more experience can be twice as productive for you.

At the gig, time is money, wasted time is wasted money.

Back to the subject of appearance, one thing I see a lot is power strips (usually white) dangling out of the back of racks, hanging in the air with all the rack gear plugged into them, or they are on the table next to the mixer. And, of course, plugged into an orange extension cord Very Happy. Ugly as can be. At least secure the thing in your rack.

A couple of things I have done:

I put heavy-duty velcro cable straps in all four corners of the back of my racks. When they are stacked, all the AC can be run and secured down one side, all signal lines down the other. I bought an old theater drape, and made pieces as wide as my racks and from 6 to ten feet long that drape over the backs. I sewed weights in all four corners, and hemmed the edges. Provides pretty good-looking cover if done neatly, lets in enough air, and keeps the dust factor down. There is enough extra to drape over the fronts, as well, giving you an easy way to cover the fronts during down time.  
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Ryan Lantzy on September 26, 2005, 07:07:07 pm
Wow.

Well said Doug.  

I was at a local music festival where there were two stages.  There was only supposed to be one, and a local guy I know of was running the "origninally planned" stage.  He was moaning and complaining that the "big act" they brought in (a touring regional) didn't want to use his equipment and stage.  So they brought in a PRO outfit stage, lighting and sound.

Upon looking over his set up, I could totally see why they turned him down.  I'm sure they would have been fine with the lower level EV speakers he had and the 100 year old Crown amps.  The thing that stood out to me was the orange.  It was everywhere.  Strung in the air, all around the stage.  Then the distro.  No ground.  Hot Hot and a neutral.  That probably wasn't the worst part.  The worst, was the lights.  Homebrew stands, nicely welded, clean looking, telescoping... HELD UP BY HOSE CLAMPS!!! Yeah, that's right.  Hose clamps.  THe type you see on your garden variety... er... garden hose.  You know the metal ones with teeth and a tightening screw.  I was walking around  back stage and walked under the lights several times unknowningly.  Once I noticed that... I almost punched him in the face.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: David Buckley on September 26, 2005, 09:29:06 pm
Actually, Doug, you had the magic word in there amongst it all.

Stagecraft.

I dont, but could fairly safely and neatly put together a rig with any old Home Depot cables or ratshack, and so could you.  In this (and many other) fields of endeavour, one applies skill and knowledge to overcome equipment limitations.  Normally its that loungers dont have a v-DOSC and Digico, but the basic principles could go as low as mains cables.

Some folks just dont have stagecraft.

I've said it several times here previously, its the sound providors job to provide safe power to the band, and that stops the band turning up with assorted crap power cabling, which I find to  be the biggest problem...
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Jeff Wayne (J.W.) on September 26, 2005, 09:59:50 pm
After many decades of theater and sound companies practicing professional stagecraft with many things black.The obvious low visibility in semidarkness for a more believable theater drama, or less intrusive on a lighting scene.Naturally it just evolved that colors other than black for equipment meant to be invisible are taken as unprofessional.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Doyle Smith on September 27, 2005, 02:01:08 am
I'm a relative lurker here but I had to speak up.  I second and third the guys who say to use 12-3 SO cable.  I come from a movie rental equipment background.  We always used 12-3 & 16-3 SO cable for our "stingers"  (Edison parallel blade 15amp extensions.)  Buy a 150-250' spool and wire them yourself. It's easier than XLR's.  Hospital grade Edison male and females if you can afford them.  If not, look for thermoplastic shells.  Try Lowes for Cooper 4867 & 4887.  I would stay away from the softer nylon shells because they melt if you have a funky high resistance, heat generating connection inside.  Plain old SO cable seems to be hard to find but I've seen SJOOW available at the local Home Depot. Don't be afraid to "tin" the conductor leads before you clamp em down.  Keep it Pro.  It's done that way for a good reason.  Safety, Convenience, Appearance it all counts.  One other tip for newbies... Grab up some scrap duvetyne it can hide a lot of stage dress problems at the last minute. Hope this helps.  
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: David Buckley on September 27, 2005, 08:21:26 am
mississippi slim wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 18:01

Don't be afraid to "tin" the conductor leads before you clamp em down.  Keep it Pro.


I would suggest that is controversial advice.  Arguments rage on, but I'm in the "dont tin" camp.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Ron Hebbard on September 27, 2005, 08:31:12 am
David Buckley wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 13:21

mississippi slim wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 18:01

Don't be afraid to "tin" the conductor leads before you clamp em down.  Keep it Pro.


I would suggest that is controversial advice.  Arguments rage on, but I'm in the "dont tin" camp.


Hello David;

And I'm in that same "camp" right along with you.
I was just beginning to write a post when I heard you chime in.
I suppose I could go with tinning the very tip but most tinners opt to tin the entire exposed end even to the extent of wicking solder up inside the insulation.

To elaborate;
Tinning hardens the end.
When you clamp it, no matter how tight you make it, all it takes is the slightest loosening to have a totally poor connection.

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Jim Duyck on September 27, 2005, 10:01:44 am
We played at a gig last month that brought in a production company out of Hobbs, NM.  They didn't have any orange extension cords, but...even though they had a 48 or 56 channel Soundcraft Series Five @ FOH, a 48 or 56 channel Ramsa on monitors, Crest FOH amp racks, Powerlight monitor amp racks, an Omnidrive, BSS dynamics and EQ, some A-line line arrays, and EV subs and monitors, etc...you should've seen the mess at FOH!!! Shocked The main snake, the inserts, the effects, and the power supply cable all had chosen different routes to and from the console....I about ralphed right there...

But it is really was a red flag warning us about the rest of the night.  They were running their rig in stereo, but the EQ's were VASTLY different for L & R (Until the frontman of the headlining band re-eq'd it).  They were underpowered on the lows and ran the amps on the subs into the clip limiters most of the night, so much so that they were cutting in and out as the amps would thermal, I guess.  Then they lost the right side of the rig (another guy helping them as a grunt said they did it the weekend before - by blowing the fuses in the back of the boxes) because he was running it so loud - too loud, with lots of extra mids that hurt Evil or Very Mad .  And then, 20 minutes later, he turned to the guy I was talking to and said "Hey, I think we lost the right side....go tell Bob (or whoever the owner was that was on monitors).

Stagecraft is without a doubt a warning before the storm...
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on September 27, 2005, 10:31:19 am
Ron Hebbard wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 05:31

David Buckley wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 13:21

mississippi slim wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 18:01

Don't be afraid to "tin" the conductor leads before you clamp em down.  Keep it Pro.


I would suggest that is controversial advice.  Arguments rage on, but I'm in the "dont tin" camp.


Hello David;

And I'm in that same "camp" right along with you.
I was just beginning to write a post when I heard you chime in.
I suppose I could go with tinning the very tip but most tinners opt to tin the entire exposed end even to the extent of wicking solder up inside the insulation.

To elaborate;
Tinning hardens the end.
When you clamp it, no matter how tight you make it, all it takes is the slightest loosening to have a totally poor connection.

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


Glad you posted this! To add: solder has a bad habit of oxidizing over time, and can crystallize (similar to a cold solder joint) if subjected to enough heat at the junction. In short, your connection will more quickly develop higher internal resistance, which leads to more heatup at the joint.. well, you see where this is going.. Shocked
Also, people don't think to give all their electrical connections a re-tighten periodically - especially on cords and panels that routinely get run close to their limit.
Regards,
Mike
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Doyle Smith on September 27, 2005, 09:10:28 pm
Thanks for the additional input. Certainly good advice about re-tightening electrical connectors.  I always do this when I unplug something and feel that it's too hot.  

Some interesting points you make for the "not tin" school.  I did mean just enough tin to hold the strands together and certainly not enough to wick up behind the insulation and stiffen the lead.  Do you guys just twist the stripped lead and tighten it down?  
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Reid on September 27, 2005, 09:31:41 pm
mississippi slim wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 20:10

Thanks for the additional input. Certainly good advice about re-tightening electrical connectors.  I always do this when I unplug something and feel that it's too hot.  

Some interesting points you make for the "not tin" school.  I did mean just enough tin to hold the strands together and certainly not enough to wick up behind the insulation and stiffen the lead.  Do you guys just twist the stripped lead and tighten it down?  

This is the practice I follow.
Just enough to keep the end from getting frayed.  No wicking.
I do this with speakons too.

tom
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Manchester on September 28, 2005, 02:01:29 am
Darn it guys! I thought having my FOH all loomed and pretty and my mini doghouse was enough, but since this thread has started I Made a 50' Black extension cord for muso power (SJEW Embarassed It's all I had on Hand i.e. Free). I also made a 4 channel 6' XLR to TRS loomed snake to go from my stage snake to amp racks to clean them up a bit. The Yellow Amp power extension cords are staying for the time being though unless someone wants to mail me some black SOO  Razz
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Reid on September 28, 2005, 08:37:00 am
Quote:

unless someone wants to mail me some black SOO  


That trick never works around here.  I've been trying for about a year.  Everyday that brown truck comes down the street, and doesn't stop for a visit.

Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Joe Adam on September 30, 2005, 04:22:24 pm
Very interesting, thanks.  So at this point maybe I should retract my statement about me knowing that you can't get black ones....

Joe
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Timmahh on October 01, 2005, 01:10:42 pm
Actually the quick tone is a 6db boost @ 100Hz as described to me from Mark
Tim
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: David Buehler on October 02, 2005, 02:57:08 pm
WOW, i know exactly which company your talking about. You are by far not the first person to speak of them in this fashion. PM me, i'd like to know more..
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on October 03, 2005, 01:15:33 am
Timmahh wrote on Sat, 01 October 2005 10:10

Actually the quick tone is a 6db boost @ 100Hz as described to me from Mark
Tim


That was my understanding of this little button too.  I just don't use this feature.  I use the amps for monitors and usually have very little if any below 100hz.  I use the ES 2000 for my HF drivers and I love them.  They don't have the quicktone button.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Duffy on October 18, 2005, 08:02:30 pm
I took the plunge and ordered some more 12/3 SOOW from CompCableUSA.com

Things of note:
It's not CAROL brand, I can't spot a manufacturer name on it.  I got a 14 foot end of roll piece at HomeDepot, and that was CAROL.
CAROL brand smells very rubbery. I've been wiping it down with a soapy flannel towel to try to clean it up a bit.
The CompCableUSA cable is not smelly, it just has a light rubber odor.

Either are a pig to get into a Neutrik powercon connector. I think it may be an issue with the powercon rather than the cable, but the natural spacing of the L/E/N wires requires you to flip the E through the middle of the other two. When wired into the back of a 5-15 edison, the wires and contacts just line up. If you're doing a powercon-powercon cable, you could swap the colors and do L = White, N = Black so the connectors line up, but that is just asking for trouble later on.

Now the big question is how long to make each cable segment?
Being 3 times as heavy as the old orange stuff, a 50footer is too heavy to be confortable when winding it back up. I'm thinking that 30 foot is a good usable length than can be extended in multiples.

Tom.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Bennett Prescott on October 18, 2005, 08:38:42 pm
Tom Reid wrote on Wed, 28 September 2005 08:37

Quote:

unless someone wants to mail me some black SOO
That trick never works around here.  I've been trying for about a year.  Everyday that brown truck comes down the street, and doesn't stop for a visit.


Call Belden and ask for a 50' sample. Worked for me when I needed 20' worth of hi-flex control cable in the machine shop... Had it two days later.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on October 18, 2005, 10:06:51 pm
Hello y'all. New recruit here. Just discovered this forum after several years of hanging out on DVInfoNet (got involved with that because it was oriented toward Canon XL1 owner-operators), which is a great group but it doesn't really cover my sound reinforcement interests as tightly. They do have contributions from guys like Douglas Spotted Eagle and Jay Rose, though, and come very close to some of the pro sound topics so near and dear to our hearts.

Anyway, I just had to sign up when I saw that there was another Mike Butler on board.  Razz

I thought I'd just start in the Lounge, since although I'm hardly a newbie or amateur (was mixing rock'n'roll back in the 1970s) I'm also not out every week flying V-DOSC arrays and such. So I'm kind of in the farmer category, maybe gentleman farmer, 'cuz this is just one part of my gig.

I have to agree with a lot of the comments here and add to them.

I too have an issue with the safety of milk crates, and not just in terms of equipment crashes...standing on them can result in compound fracture of tibia and fibula (I know).  Shocked

I'm just as anal as anyone here, even policed the interior of my home theatre cabinet in my kitchen, with one solitary (black) split-loom cable exiting to all the satellite speakers. I'm a big endorser of the Brother P-touch versus the masking-tape-written-on-with-Sharpie approach for anything but last-minute field fixes. I shun duct tape, and if any tape must be used, it will be gaffers tape (black, of course).

Whether DJ-ing (yes I still do that) or operating live sound, I am a big believer in having a clean backplane on the rack, either by using a doghouse or removable back panel, or even Duvetyne (my corporate show work has made me a big fan of Duvy) to conceal the motley cross-connections and other aesthetic faux pas.

But I do still have and use some orange cables. Sorry.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on October 18, 2005, 10:25:57 pm
mikebutlermedia.com wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 22:06

Hello y'all. New recruit here. Just discovered this forum after several years of hanging out on DVInfoNet (got involved with that because it was oriented toward Canon XL1 owner-operators), which is a great group but it doesn't really cover my sound reinforcement interests as tightly. They do have contributions from guys like Douglas Spotted Eagle and Jay Rose, though, and come very close to some of the pro sound topics so near and dear to our hearts.

Anyway, I just had to sign up when I saw that there was another Mike Butler on board.  Razz

I thought I'd just start in the Lounge, since although I'm hardly a newbie or amateur (was mixing rock'n'roll back in the 1970s) I'm also not out every week flying V-DOSC arrays and such. So I'm kind of in the farmer category, maybe gentleman farmer, 'cuz this is just one part of my gig.

I have to agree with a lot of the comments here and add to them.

I too have an issue with the safety of milk crates, and not just in terms of equipment crashes...standing on them can result in compound fracture of tibia and fibula (I know).  Shocked

I'm just as anal as anyone here, even policed the interior of my home theatre cabinet in my kitchen, with one solitary (black) split-loom cable exiting to all the satellite speakers. I'm a big endorser of the Brother P-touch versus the masking-tape-written-on-with-Sharpie approach for anything but last-minute field fixes. I shun duct tape, and if any tape must be used, it will be gaffers tape (black, of course).

Whether DJ-ing (yes I still do that) or operating live sound, I am a big believer in having a clean backplane on the rack, either by using a doghouse or removable back panel, or even Duvetyne (my corporate show work has made me a big fan of Duvy) to conceal the motley cross-connections and other aesthetic faux pas.

But I do still have and use some orange cables. Sorry.



Whats your name?

Do we know how to read the rules?

Evan
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Brian Adams on October 18, 2005, 10:35:59 pm
Jeez Evan, after reading his post you still can't tell what his name is?  It seems pretty apparent from his screen name as well, at least to me.  

I'm not saying you're not correct (technically), I just think your post seems a little too abrasive in this case.  He's obviously well-intentioned, so asking nicely wouldn't hurt anything, especially since this is his first time here.  I mean, he did at least read enough of the rules (or something) to make the decision to post in the lounge first, so he's on the right track.

In any case, it'll be nice to have another Mike Butler on the forum.. Smile
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Ryan Lantzy on October 18, 2005, 11:05:49 pm
B. Adams wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 22:35

Jeez Evan, after reading his post you still can't tell what his name is?  It seems pretty apparent from his screen name as well, at least to me.


Agreed.  I think Evan is just sore cause he picked on his milk crates.   Laughing
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mark Taylor on October 18, 2005, 11:21:18 pm
Yeah......not to be a jerk at all, but please let the moderators do their job. If they have a comment - they'll comment. No need to be abrasive.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Steve Oldridge on October 19, 2005, 01:08:49 am
While Evan may have been a little abrasive to a 'newbie' .... he does have a point !!

The moderators (just an observation as I'm sure they are busy) do not appear to be moderating that particular rule [too well] in the lounge - there seem to still be some folks who are not using their real names - and some of them have been around a while.. my $0.02

Steve
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on October 19, 2005, 02:14:59 am
Uh...apart from the fact that if you read what I wrote, I made reference to "another" Mike Butler...that should have been the dead giveaway...(as B. Adams pointed out, thanks)
When filling out the signup form where it asked for my real name, I GAVE my real name!!! How was I to know that it would be the requested "handle" or "alias" (which actually contains my real name, BTW) which would take precedence over my "real name" when displaying my posts? The form should be edited to exclude aliases.

In any case, I expected less picayune behavior than that, and if this is the kind of "welcome" accorded to newcomers I'll think twice about posting again. Is this all that you have to think about? Oh yes, and for the record, my name is MIKE BUTLER. Yes, that's my real name.

This is MIKE BUTLER and I approved this message.

Sincerely,
MIKE BUTLER
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Ryan Lantzy on October 19, 2005, 08:43:32 am
"the new" Mike Butler wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 02:14

Uh...apart from the fact that if you read what I wrote, I made reference to "another" Mike Butler...that should have been the dead giveaway...(as B. Adams pointed out, thanks)
When filling out the signup form where it asked for my real name, I GAVE my real name!!! How was I to know that it would be the requested "handle" or "alias" (which actually contains my real name, BTW) which would take precedence over my "real name" when displaying my posts? The form should be edited to exclude aliases.


AGREED!

Quote:

In any case, I expected less picayune behavior than that, and if this is the kind of "welcome" accorded to newcomers I'll think twice about posting again. Is this all that you have to think about?


Mike, please ignore the abrasive retort of others.  Welcome to PSW and thanks for abiding by the rules.
Title: FOR YOU WANNA-BE MODERATORS, DONT BE TRYING THIS AT HOME!
Post by: Geri O'Neil on October 19, 2005, 08:54:13 am
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 21:

Whats your name?

Do we know how to read the rules?

Evan


One of those rules here is to let the moderators do the moderating and not to respond at all to someone who appears to be breaking the rules, which, in the new Mike Butler's case, does not appear at all to be the case. Even half-asleep and pre-coffee, I can't for the life of me find anything wrong with his post. Okay, the DJ reference, but nobody's perfect... Laughing

Evan, I've been following some of your postings for a while now and you're smarter than this. Some folks around here (not necessarily referring to Evan) seem to be haunting the site just laying in wait for someone to violate a rule so they can pounce. Maybe they need to vent, but this isn't the way. Yeah, we're gonna do it and yeah I have. Everyone just take a deep breath and relax. We all CERTAINLY have to have waaay more to worry about than someone that misses several stickys at the top of the board about whatever rules are getting people excited one way or the other.

Geri O
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mark Taylor on October 19, 2005, 08:58:09 am
Steve Oldridge wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 06:08

The moderators (just an observation as I'm sure they are busy) do not appear to be moderating that particular rule [too well] in the lounge - there seem to still be some folks who are not using their real names - and some of them have been around a while.. my $0.02
Steve


I agree with you though I still think that it may be a concious choice on the part of the mods to be less demanding of a forum where people often walk in - ask a single question -  and are never seen again.

The regulars.......well, I dunno. Possible just the nature of the weekend warrior threads. If you were handing out crap advice, would you want your name on it??  Twisted Evil
Title: Re: BTW, we usurped Dougs thread
Post by: Tom Reid on October 19, 2005, 09:49:55 am
Geri O wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 07:54

Evan Kirkendall wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 21:

Whats your name?

Do we know how to read the rules?

Evan


One of those rules here is to let the moderators do the moderating and not to respond at all to someone who appears to be breaking the rules, which, in the new Mike Butler's case, does not appear at all to be the case. Even half-asleep and pre-coffee, I can't for the life of me find anything wrong with his post. Okay, the DJ reference, but nobody's perfect... Laughing

Evan, I've been following some of your postings for a while now and you're smarter than this. Some folks around here (not necessarily referring to Evan) seem to be haunting the site just laying in wait for someone to violate a rule so they can pounce. Maybe they need to vent, but this isn't the way. Yeah, we're gonna do it and yeah I have. Everyone just take a deep breath and relax. We all CERTAINLY have to have waaay more to worry about than someone that misses several stickys at the top of the board about whatever rules are getting people excited one way or the other.

Geri O



There were some lengthy discussions a while back about "cleaning up the LAB" and trying to make it a more robust community.
I think some of our regulars are taking it upon themsleves to try and do just that.  However in their zealousness to create a better LAB, they miss the point and bring it back around full circle.

Bagders?  We don' need no stinkin' badgers ....

ETA:

I meant to say something about getting Doug's thread all out of whack.  The man was trying to teach us all how to be pro.  'course saving money and appearing pro sometimes don't go together.  For now, I'll use the yellow extenders.

peace
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on October 19, 2005, 10:34:51 am
"the new" Mike Butler wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 19:06



Anyway, I just had to sign up when I saw that there was another Mike Butler on board.  Razz



HEEYY, Dude, welcome - from the "old" Mike Butler!  Very Happy  Glad you found this place...

"the new" Mike Butler wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 19:06


I too have an issue with the safety of milk crates, and not just in terms of equipment crashes...standing on them can result in compound fracture of tibia and fibula (I know).  Shocked



My favorite story about milk crates was the gig I was using them for a mixer stand. That wuuz in the daze of the "built-in" spring reverb in the console, and we were doing a show where I needed a canload of 'verb, so I had the output REALLY hot in the mix. Everything was going along nicely, and I shifted position to get more comfortable, and kicked the crates, causing them to rock back and forth, and the reverb does the very loud KATCHANGGG!! thing through the PA. Artist is cracking up, but eventually pulls it back together.
Soo.. I don't even use them for cables anymore.. just for chains and other rigging stuff...

"the new" Mike Butler wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 19:06


But I do still have and use some orange cables. Sorry.


I bet just about everybody here does. You just don't use them where it's not appropriate. When they die, you replace them with the right stuff...
Anyway, nice name for your enterprise. Wish I'D thought of it.. Cool
Regards,
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on October 19, 2005, 10:38:29 am
"the new" Mike Butler wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 23:14



In any case, I expected less picayune behavior than that, and if this is the kind of "welcome" accorded to newcomers I'll think twice about posting again. Is this all that you have to think about? Oh yes, and for the record, my name is MIKE BUTLER. Yes, that's my real name.

This is MIKE BUTLER and I approved this message.

Sincerely,
MIKE BUTLER

YOU TELL'EM!!!  Twisted Evil
Regards,
Mike (F.) Butler
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Lee Patzius on October 19, 2005, 01:28:36 pm
Tom Duffy wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 20:02

 I think it may be an issue with the powercon rather than the cable, but the natural spacing of the L/E/N wires requires you to flip the E through the middle of the other two. When wired into the back of a 5-15 edison, the wires and contacts just line up. If you're doing a powercon-powercon cable, you could swap the colors and do L = White, N = Black so the connectors line up, but that is just asking for trouble later on.

Tom.


Tom,

Did you try using the other end of the cable?

One end of the cable's wire color rotation comes out in a clockwise order, while the other end comes out in reverse order.

If you have to "braid" the wire colors to line up in a plug, then use the other end of the cable instead. It'll line up perfectly, and go straight in.

Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Duffy on October 19, 2005, 01:54:45 pm
Quote:

Did you try using the other end of the cable?

One end of the cable's wire color rotation comes out in a clockwise order, while the other end comes out in reverse order.

If you have to "braid" the wire colors to line up in a plug, then use the other end of the cable instead. It'll line up perfectly, and go straight in.


Yeah, this did occur to me. I've only got one cable here with me, an Edison->Blue Powercon.  The Edison lines up perfectly with the braid, the Powercon does not, requiring the ground wire to be pushed between the other two.
Another cable at home is a Blue Powercon to White Powercon cable, I have the feeling that that one lined up at both ends, but I'll check it again.

Tom.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on October 19, 2005, 02:12:15 pm
Thanks for that, Ryan.

Oh yeah, just thought of another area where I have wiped out orange, blue, yellow and pink colors...work apparel. I have taken the concept of "show blacks" traditionally worn by stage personnel and extended it to wear when shooting video, working in FOH, etc. I have been known to borrow certain techniques and habits across disciplines.

Of course, if I'm DJing a beach party, I'll be wearing a bright Hawaiian shirt.   Smile
Title: Re: FOR YOU WANNA-BE MODERATORS, DONT BE TRYING THIS AT HOME!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on October 19, 2005, 03:35:40 pm
Geri O wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 08:54

Evan Kirkendall wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 21:

Whats your name?

Do we know how to read the rules?

Evan


One of those rules here is to let the moderators do the moderating and not to respond at all to someone who appears to be breaking the rules, which, in the new Mike Butler's case, does not appear at all to be the case. Even half-asleep and pre-coffee, I can't for the life of me find anything wrong with his post. Okay, the DJ reference, but nobody's perfect... Laughing

Evan, I've been following some of your postings for a while now and you're smarter than this. Some folks around here (not necessarily referring to Evan) seem to be haunting the site just laying in wait for someone to violate a rule so they can pounce. Maybe they need to vent, but this isn't the way. Yeah, we're gonna do it and yeah I have. Everyone just take a deep breath and relax. We all CERTAINLY have to have waaay more to worry about than someone that misses several stickys at the top of the board about whatever rules are getting people excited one way or the other.

Geri O




I need to get more sleep. Smile I was kinda cranky when I wrote that... Working on 4 hours of sleep with 2 papers due the next day( Shocked ) does things to people...  Very Happy

I got about 8 hours of sleep last night so Im in a better mood today. Smile

Quote:

In any case, I expected less picayune behavior than that, and if this is the kind of "welcome" accorded to newcomers I'll think twice about posting again. Is this all that you have to think about? Oh yes, and for the record, my name is MIKE BUTLER. Yes, that's my real name.

This is MIKE BUTLER and I approved this message.

Sincerely,
MIKE BUTLER


Welcome to the forums Mike. Ill be nice from here on out.

I promise Wink


Evan
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Scott Moseley on October 19, 2005, 03:59:08 pm
Ok,

So I'm trying to reform my yellow/orange ways Razz .  Just got a 250' roll of 12/3 SJ.  I'd like to make all the female ends into 4 outlet box (like the metal home depot kind).  Does everyone paint these metal boxes black?  I'm sure it looks better...

Any helpful hints on jumping the ground between the individual outlets?  Ground directly to the box?

Scott Moseley
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Lee Patzius on October 19, 2005, 04:18:40 pm
Scott Moseley wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 15:59

Any helpful hints on jumping the ground between the individual outlets?  Ground directly to the box?

Scott Moseley


1) I'd get those 4 11/16" by 2 1/8" extra deep boxes.

2) You could mount the boxes on a metal plate for starters.

3) Install a lug connector to each box, connect your normal grounding conductor to the recptacle like normal but add a grounding pigtail wire to the lug. Then add an additional #6 AWG green wire daisy chained from each lug to each box.

Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Duffy on October 19, 2005, 04:50:49 pm
Quote:

3) Install a lug connector to each box, connect your normal grounding conductor to the recptacle like normal but add a grounding pigtail wire to the lug. Then add an additional #6 AWG green wire daisy chained from each lug to each box.


I was reading a home wiring book (based on the 2002 NEC) that said this was not to code.

The incoming cable's ground wire (green) needs to go straight to the metal case.  A pigtail from there to each outlet's ground connector is then required. You mustn't daisy chain grounds, you need a common point, and because the case is metal, that is it.

This is how I did my quad box inside my amp rack, with the addition of yet another ground pigtail out of the box and back to the rack rails. As for wire size, 12AWG is OK, because it only needs to take the maximum current before the main breaker goes in case of a short circuit to ground. For a power lead plugged into the wall (edisons), that maximum will be 20Amps.

The only way to get more than 20 amps into that cable would be with a 5-30 or higher connector on one end, which is again not up to code - cable is too small for potential current.

Tom.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on October 19, 2005, 08:31:09 pm
Mike [AB


My favorite story about milk crates was the gig I was using them for a mixer stand. That wuuz in the daze of the "built-in" spring reverb in the console, and we were doing a show where I needed a canload of 'verb, so I had the output REALLY hot in the mix. Everything was going along nicely, and I shifted position to get more comfortable, and kicked the crates, causing them to rock back and forth, and the reverb does the very loud KATCHANGGG!! thing through the PA. Artist is cracking up, but eventually pulls it back together.


Good one, Mike! Way back in the day, here I am mixing on a console with the built-in spring, and the band is practicing "Rocky Raccoon." When they got to the line:
"But Daniel was hot, he drew first and shot" (pause)
I picked up one end of the console a couple of inches and dropped it on the table: "SHPRRANNNNNGGGGGG!"
"...and Rocky collapsed in the corner. Yeah, doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo"

We wound up using the gag in the gig.
Laughing

I still have a Fender guitar amp with the "spring," those things are still good for something in this day and age of DSP.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Lee Patzius on October 19, 2005, 09:06:50 pm
Tom Duffy wrote on Wed, 19 October 2005 16:50

I was reading a home wiring book (based on the 2002 NEC) that said this was not to code.

The incoming cable's ground wire (green) needs to go straight to the metal case.  A pigtail from there to each outlet's ground connector is then required. You mustn't daisy chain grounds, you need a common point, and because the case is metal, that is it.


You are sort of correct sir. But thanks anyway... I type not what I do.

Actually, I take the incoming green wire into a grounding wirenut, one wire goes to the receptacle, one goes to the box. And in the case of an additional grounding lug, I'd take a Stakon ring connector to the lug's mounting screw, or twist it tightly with the #6 AWG and clamp it down in the lug hole. (Sharing a lug hole with more than one conductor is frowned upon if it can be avoided. If not, guess what.)

Yes, if I implied daisy chaining off of the grounding screw... DON'T do that. In fact do NOT daisy chain any wire from a receptacle's screw to screw connection for that matter. Always pigtail the extra conductors out of a common point, a wirenut or splitbolt or lug or any clamping device intended for the purpose...

If fact, daisy chained neutrals from screw to screw bridge is totally illegal too. So NEVER do that.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk on October 20, 2005, 10:45:28 am
Doug.... I feel your pain.  We run a smallish company.  Well, it isn't that small, but we aren't a regional either.  However, from day one, we have always had many KM (or miles if you prefer) of black cable.  Everything is black.  Mic cables, AC, feeder, snakes, subsnakes, and all NL4 and NL8.  Yeah, you ain't going down to the local hardware barn and buying a 100 footer pre made in black all that easily, but I bet if you head down to your local electrical wholesaler, you can sure as hell buy 14/3 SJEOW by the roll for cheap.  And you can buy Hubbel ends by the case for cheap too.  You sit down for a couple evenings, mark out a length on the floor of the shop (2 marks at 50', with one in the middle woks well) and start building.  Couple guys on the project, and you can whip up an unbelievable amount of cable in a couple evenings.

Why am I saying all this?  We have other companies in this area that love to use a mis mash of rainbow colored extension cords all over the stage.  Not only are the molded ends on these type of cables absolute shit, but man, it looks like hell.  Face it, black goes with everything, blends into the scenery, and just looks better.  Besides... it hides all the stage grime that does tend to accumulate on cables much better.  The dirty yellow extension cord will never look as professional as the dirty black one.  Oh yeah, and get some of these guys to get rid of that 3 outlet ended blue piece of shit they plugged their car in with last winter.  Put a proper quad box on the end of that bastard... with a proper strain relief too, while you are at it.  

Oh well....  I see your point, and I feel your pain.

Gus

PS:  Maybe you can get them to put at least an L5-20, or even better, an L14-30 on their ampracks, and get rid of the 4- 15A cables going to it!
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on December 09, 2005, 05:15:44 pm
Forget Home Despot and bLow's. If you need'em readymade:

http://www.zzounds.com/prodsearch?form=prodsearch&q=exte nsion+cord&submit.x=0&submit.y=0

http://www.directproaudio.com/shop/cables/ac.cfm


Hey, what does a colorblind bride wear?
Something old, something new, something borrowed, something orange, blue, yellow, and pink!

index.php/fa/3414/0/

heh heh Twisted Evil
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on December 09, 2005, 06:06:54 pm
Mannn, talk about reading down too far!! Sheesh..  Cool
It's weird.. Home Cheapo carries the right materials.. but I guess it's just too expensive to sell in a completed form..  Confused
Regards,
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Bud Bolf on December 09, 2005, 06:42:42 pm
 Hi,
 What I want to know is what Yellow Crimps were used in the Binding Posts?
index.php/fa/3416/0/

Thanks,
   Bud
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Gary Merker on December 09, 2005, 08:08:20 pm
Check this site:

http://www.stompin-ground.com/products/sgcable120.htm

This is a page of Furman all-black electrical power distribution products.....extension cords, power strips, etc.  Pretty reasonably priced and qualtiy stuff.  The only thing about the extension cords is that they are 14/3.  I think 12/3 should be used, particularly for lighting/effects.

I agree with the use of black cords if possible.  Black cords become part of the stage structure and therefore invisibile or at least unnoticeable.  But I use orange for outdoor gigs mainly because everyone (inluding owners and even musicians) recognizes that as AC power.  
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on December 09, 2005, 08:27:30 pm
{duplicate post}
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on December 09, 2005, 08:28:06 pm
Bud Bolf wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 18:42

 Hi,
 What I want to know is what Yellow Crimps were used in the Binding Posts?


Looks like a standard automotive/industrial item:


index.php/fa/3418/0/

Stud opening size may need to be different to fit binding post diameter.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Bud Bolf on December 09, 2005, 09:52:02 pm
 Yeppers,
Beats bare wire shoved in the hole, I'll have to
pick them up and redo my Amp Rack.
 
In regard to extension cords, the band that I'm
in had an outside gig this past weekend.
The stage was in a parking lot 40 feet from a law office.
We picked up four 50 foot 10/3 yellow with a black line
extension cords from Home Depot. About $50.00 each.
The office had four dedicated outlets, 20 amps each.
We ran the four cords from each outlet to the stage.
One cord Backline, one FOH, one for Amp rack,
and one cord for Monitor Amps.
We played 4 hours, no problems and cords cool.
Also no hums or noises from FOH,Backline or Monitors.
I got lucky, I was going to tie the Grounds together
as in the Cheap Distro, but just did not get the time.
Still $200.00 for extension cords is not cheap!

I also bought 50 feet of Carol, SJOOW 10/3 bulk "black"
wire for $1.07 a foot at Home Depot.
From that I made two 25' drop Quad boxes,
with Hubbell compression fittings (on the metal quad box)
that I got at Grainger.
They turned out nice, but two 25 foot Quads cost me about $120.00.
We'll use the two Quads as stage drops in the future.

Later,
    Bud
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Ryan Lantzy on December 10, 2005, 12:06:55 am
Mike Butler (media) wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 20:28

Bud Bolf wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 18:42

 Hi,
 What I want to know is what Yellow Crimps were used in the Binding Posts?


Looks like a standard automotive/industrial item:


Stud opening size may need to be different to fit binding post diameter.


How?  The openings on the binding posts on my RMX and PLX amps only have a hole big enough to fit wire.

The older MX amps didn't have the protective shroud and I can use the forked spade connectors.

EDIT:  Hold, the phone, dang they will fit!  Coolio.  I have to rewire my amp rack now!
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 10, 2005, 02:13:11 am
Bud Bolf wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 21:52

 
I also bought 50 feet of Carol, SJOOW 10/3 bulk "black"
wire for $1.07 a foot at Home Depot.



Ouch. I actually discovered it is cheaper to get wire by the foot from a real electrical supply house then Home Depot. When I built my new amp rack and needed Black 12/3 sjoow they had it for $0.50 a foot! Later, I bought 25' at home depot for $0.98 a foot. talk about markup! To tell you the truth though, the guy at the supply shop gave me the wire at no charge, I guess because I only needed 10' and was buying $40 worth or hubbell twist locks. For the most part things at the Electrical supply places (that cater to contractors) are a little pricey, but it's worth looking in to.

I think I might have to go get myself another 50' of 12/3. I now have a massive pile of black cords...with a 100' yellow cord and an 85' neon orange one  Very Happy .
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on December 10, 2005, 11:54:10 am
gmerkman wrote on Fri, 09 December 2005 20:08

Check this site:

... The only thing about the extension cords is that they are 14/3.  I think 12/3 should be used, particularly for lighting/effects....


There's a different size for each task. One of the websites in my pevious post sells 16, 14 and 12. There's no need to use 12AWG in a 12-ft. cord to an FX rack, for example.

Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Milt Hathaway on December 10, 2005, 01:12:21 pm
P.Frederiksen wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 20:19

Wow, it must be tough hiding all that yellow and orange stuff in the truss!
you can bulk buy black at any home depot etc
(I do use yellow......on my weed wacker)
Very Happy


Actually, yellow cable hides easier than black in truss that is natural aluminum color. It also hides easier when flown against drop ceilings.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on December 10, 2005, 04:57:58 pm
P.Frederiksen wrote on Wed, 21 September 2005 21:19

(I do use yellow......on my weed wacker)
Very Happy

heh heh

It's also the standard color for marine shore power. I'm eyeballing a length of 10/3 dock cable in my garage that came from my old boat. I used a chunk of the stuff to plug in my AC/DC welder.  Cool
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Gene Declue on December 10, 2005, 09:49:25 pm
I guess I'm the only one that uses the dark green, after Christmas special 14 gauge cable.  It's ALMOST as dark as pure black cable and on a dark stage, they pretty much are invisable (and CHEAP).
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on December 10, 2005, 10:02:10 pm
Gene Declue wrote on Sat, 10 December 2005 21:49

I guess I'm the only one that uses the dark green, after Christmas special 14 gauge cable.  It's ALMOST as dark as pure black cable and on a dark stage, they pretty much are invisable (and CHEAP).
...and prolly even cheaper on Dec.26!
Laughing
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Gene Declue on December 10, 2005, 10:09:43 pm
That's the ONLY time I buy cables!
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Herr on December 16, 2005, 06:35:29 am
DYMO Ryno label printers are hand held and do Shrink tube. They have a few versions ranging from around $50 to $150.
http://cableorganizer.com/rhinopro1000-handheld-labeler/inde x.htm

Might be worth checking out.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on December 17, 2005, 09:34:39 pm
Hey, my Pro Co E-Cords just arrived, and I'm liking them. All-black, SJTOW, rated for 105
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 17, 2005, 10:19:28 pm
I just went to my local electrical supply house and picked up about 40' of SOOW. I asked for SJOOW but the guy cut the wrong stuff. I kind of felt bad and told him I'd take the SOOW if it wasn't to much more so he gave me a discounted price on it for a grand total of something like $29.86. Stopped at Sears hardware and got some ends for it. Now I have atleast 1 legitamate cable to go with all my other J rated black cables Smile
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Bennett Prescott on December 17, 2005, 10:59:44 pm
Vishnu and Valhalla? Whatever those guys are on, I want some. Just make sure you've got the Vishnu version in the middle east, although the Valhalla ought to be good worldwide.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Brian Adams on December 18, 2005, 02:39:03 am
Tom Manchester wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 21:19

I just went to my local electrical supply house and picked up about 40' of SOOW. I asked for SJOOW but the guy cut the wrong stuff. I kind of felt bad and told him I'd take the SOOW if it wasn't to much more so he gave me a discounted price on it for a grand total of something like $29.86. Stopped at Sears hardware and got some ends for it. Now I have atleast 1 legitamate cable to go with all my other J rated black cables Smile


You can get SO cheaper than that, for me it's usually been $115-$125 for 250', but I suppose shipping was another $15 or so.  In any case, I'm glad to see that you're on the path to reformation. Wink
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike MacWillie on December 18, 2005, 02:11:55 pm
Where's that price from?

Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on December 18, 2005, 05:25:46 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 22:59

Vishnu and Valhalla? Whatever those guys are on, I want some. Just make sure you've got the Vishnu version in the middle east, although the Valhalla ought to be good worldwide.
Yeah, especially in Valhalla, NY (north of White Plains).
Laughing For that price, they better throw in some sweet Vidalias to slice up on my cheeseburgers...and some Viagra! And a ticket on Virgin Airways. And a Gibson Flying V.  Very Happy
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike MacWillie on December 19, 2005, 08:16:40 pm
Mike Butler (media) wrote on Sun, 18 December 2005 14:25

...and some Viagra!



I'm sure if you have to buy a power cable that expensive to brag about, it's a necesity!
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Jason Dermer on December 20, 2005, 12:37:14 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 22:59

Vishnu and Valhalla? Whatever those guys are on, I want some. Just make sure you've got the Vishnu version in the middle east, although the Valhalla ought to be good worldwide.


Valhalla is of Nordic origin, generally referring to what Judeo/Christians would call Heaven.

Vishnu is a Hindu god, generally more acceptable in India than the Middle East

And yes, what the Hell are these guys thinking? I guess spending $2500.00 on an IEC would make me find religion also
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Phil LaDue on December 20, 2005, 04:13:04 pm
Found the CBI cords:
http://www.cbicables.com/Extensioncord.htm
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Ron Hebbard on December 20, 2005, 05:12:56 pm
Hello Mike;

Possibly you may want to look at the crimp-on pin terminals on page K30 in the following Thomas & Betts PDF
http://www.tnb.com/contractor/docs/stakon.pdf
I've been using the yellow insulated 10 gauge crimp-on pins on installations for about a decade.

Season's Best & Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Phil Ouellette on December 21, 2005, 01:02:52 pm
Ron Hebbard wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 08:31

David Buckley wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 13:21

mississippi slim wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 18:01

Don't be afraid to "tin" the conductor leads before you clamp em down.  Keep it Pro.


I would suggest that is controversial advice.  Arguments rage on, but I'm in the "dont tin" camp.


Hello David;

And I'm in that same "camp" right along with you.
I was just beginning to write a post when I heard you chime in.
I suppose I could go with tinning the very tip but most tinners opt to tin the entire exposed end even to the extent of wicking solder up inside the insulation.

To elaborate;
Tinning hardens the end.
When you clamp it, no matter how tight you make it, all it takes is the slightest loosening to have a totally poor connection.

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard



It's worse than that. Tinning stranded wire is not reliable with fixed compression type terminations. That includes lug and screw terminals, crimp on terminals and terminals with parallel jaws (like Phoenix connectors).  The only compression type connections that are reliable with solder dipped wire are spring loaded types that maintain a consistent force even if the wire shifts or flows.

The problem is cold flow deformation of the solder.  When you tighten down a screw on a solder tinned wire, the solder initially resists the compression force giving the impression of a tight connection.  Over time, the solder yields to the pressure and a loose connection occurs. You can solder dip wires for soldered connections without creating this problem although it can increase the likelihood of wire breakage in high vibration applications.

Cold flow deformation is one of the reasons why aluminum household wiring has such a bad reputation.  Aluminum is softer than copper and requires special connectors to be reliable http://www.eh.doe.gov/docs/sn/nsh9001.html.  This is the same mechanism that happens when a solder dipped wire is used in fixed compression connections.

Note: Wire where each strand is individually tinned with solder from the vendor is different and works fine in compression connections.
Title: Re: The case against orange, blue, yellow, and pink extension cords
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on December 23, 2005, 09:49:15 pm
Phil Ouellette wrote on Wed, 21 December 2005 13:02

The problem is cold flow deformation of the solder.  When you tighten down a screw on a solder tinned wire, the solder initially resists the compression force giving the impression of a tight connection.  Over time, the solder yields to the pressure and a loose connection occurs...
I had that exact problem with banana-plug-terminated speaker cables; every so often I have to retighten the screws. I had thought I was doing a good thing to protect the plain copper conductors from corrosion by tinning them, but wound up replacing that problem with the retightening one.