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Church and H.O.W. Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Jacob Robinson on July 27, 2011, 09:22:58 am

Title: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on July 27, 2011, 09:22:58 am
Without getting into dispersion patterns and coverage as it applies to our bulding, (this requires more information than can be type in a forum post), I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the tone and qulaity of the yorkville Coliseum Series.  I got a new quote from a contractor and he spec'd these mains and monitors, our budget does not really allow for a sub, so these speakers will be supporting the full spectrum. 

Mains: C2285 http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=5&id=224 (http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=5&id=224)

Stage Monitors: CM1260 http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=5&id=67 (http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=5&id=67)


On another note regarding a sub, should we find a way to add money to the budget for a sub?  Are they vital to a good PA?  Is is something that could be added at a later date?  We have a very live worship band and play all varieties of music.

Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 27, 2011, 09:35:01 am
Without getting into dispersion patterns and coverage as it applies to our bulding, (this requires more information than can be type in a forum post), I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the tone and qulaity of the yorkville Coliseum Series.  I got a new quote from a contractor and he spec'd these mains and monitors, our budget does not really allow for a sub, so these speakers will be supporting the full spectrum. 

Mains: C2285 http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=5&id=224 (http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=5&id=224)

Stage Monitors: CM1260 http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=5&id=67 (http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=5&id=67)


On another note regarding a sub, should we find a way to add money to the budget for a sub?  Are they vital to a good PA?  Is is something that could be added at a later date?  We have a very live worship band and play all varieties of music.
There are very few speakers that are truly "full spectrum - these Yorkvilles certainly aren't - they are at least -3dB (probably more) at 55hz.  "Full spectrum" of modern sound would go down to somewhere in at least the mid 30's, depending on your definition. That's probably not a bad thing - the mid-high plus separate sub way of operating has a lot of advantages - smaller main speakers, and fewer design compromises compared to building everything in one large box.

If you need the sound range that subwoofers provide, the only way to accomplish that is with subwoofers.  Getting more or louder mains doesn't fix this.  If you have mic'd drums and put bass through the PA, then I would say subwoofers are essential.  If your bass player just plays through an amp and you don't mic the kick, you may be able to live withough subs.

Unfortunately, to give you much more info, you'll need to start typing those things that you think are too long for a forum post - room size, attendance, desired output levels, what you have now, etc.
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on July 27, 2011, 10:56:33 am
Unfortunately, to give you much more info, you'll need to start typing those things that you think are too long for a forum post - room size, attendance, desired output levels, what you have now, etc.

At the risk of looking like a 1st grader here is my 30 sec sketch of the sanctuary.  Currenty we have about 150 in attendance on Sundays and we have two "Audio Centron" Mains (not sure of specifics) on the side walls at the front of the stage.  As far as output level I don't really have enough experience to quantify that question. We do want to run our bass through the PA and mic the drums (for recording, acoustically they are PLENTY LOUD) maybe micing and running through the PA might help this issue.

Maybe this will clear a few things up.
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 27, 2011, 11:16:28 am
That's a start.  For 150 people at moderate volume without a kick mic, those Yorkvilles may be OK.  They're only 124dB max SPL, so they're not terribly loud, but that might be perfectly appropriate depending on what you want and your budget.

As you grow your system, try to put money first into things that are hard to upgrade later.  If you can, stretch your budget to get the best possible main speakers, as those will be pretty hard to change down the road - especially if flown.  Skip the sub and mixing board for the moment if you live with what you have to direct more money to the mains, and then later you can upgrade the rest of the system when there's more budget available.

Another possible idea (though don't take this necessarily as a recommendation) would be to look at a flyable active speaker system like the QSC KW 122 or 152
http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/KW_Series/series_specifications.php

The KW122s go quite a bit louder than the listed Yorkvilles, and have internal processing which will make them easier to make sound good.  Street price on those is $1000ish each, not including installation.  The KW152s can also be flown and are somewhat more "full range" than either the KW122s or Yorkvilles (but still don't replace real subwoofers).  Powered speakers require electricity near where the speakers will be mounted, which may or may not be easy in your particular situation.
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on July 27, 2011, 12:40:16 pm
Skip the sub and mixing board for the moment if you live with what you have to direct more money to the mains, and then later you can upgrade the rest of the system when there's more budget available.


We do not have the option of skipping the mixing board, we are using an ancient Peavey board and only has two aux sends, we need more channels and more aux sends.  I beleive we have decided to get and A&H GL2400-32.  We are planning on flying the speakers in the peak of the ceiling.  And, although I am not dead set on passive speakers I do prefer them to eliminate the added cost and hassle of wiring ac power to them.
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on July 27, 2011, 10:17:37 pm
After my poorest attempt at a drawing earlier today I snapped some pictures of the sanctuary while at church tonight maybe this will help with the sketch I posted earlier.

http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/ff302/jake_robinson89/Church%20Sanctuary/ (http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/ff302/jake_robinson89/Church%20Sanctuary/)
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 28, 2011, 09:32:17 am
The pictures are helpful.  I was concerned about the peak being really high, but it doesn't look too bad.  Getting the speakers in off the side walls will be a big improvement!!

There are lots of ways to skin the cat and lots of constraints - budget, asthetics, etc. At the price point I suspect the Yorkvilles are at, they're probably fine.  I'm just concerned that they're not particularly powerful speakers. 

Doing some "reverse marketing math" - 124dB max SPL probably equates to 118dB average SPL, subtract another 3-6dB after you flatten the most sensitive bands to have something quasi-musical, which leaves 112dB at 1 meter, 106dB at 2 meters (probably the first listening position), 100dB at 4 meters, 94dB at 8 meters, and 88dB at 16 meters, which is about the back of your room.  If you go without subs, there will be a temptation to try to boost things at the edges of the frequency response of the speakers, which will stress the situation more.

Subs will help take some of the load off the mains, but this isn't going to be a particularly high powered system.  It may not need to be, but I suspect you'll run out of headroom with these during youth services or other events, and if not limited properly, be at risk of damage.

Active speakers vs. passive definitely have tradeoffs - active speakers require power near the speaker position, but generally have good crossover designs and reasonable amplification and limiting inside the box.

Passive speakers that are not bi-amped are dependent on the analog crossover inside the speaker, which can be expensive to do well.  Cheaper passive speakers make a lot of compromises, and these can't necessarily be fixed with external processing.  The best passive speakers have internal crossovers that are as good as any biamp configuration with external processing.

Biamping passive speakers often gives a significant performance improvement, but at the cost of more amplifiers, processing, and knowledge required to do it well.
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 28, 2011, 09:57:40 am

 we are using an ancient Peavey board and only has two aux sends, we need more channels and more aux sends.  I beleive we have decided to get and A&H GL2400-32.

Jake....

You will definitely benefit from more aux sends.  I took a peek at your photos and didn't see a lot of stuff "on stage", so am wondering if you couldn't do with a 24 channel desk instead of 32.  It's always good to have extra channels, but your room isn't that big and I wonder if you really need the extra 8 channels.  If they're for inputs other than live (playback, video, etc) you could simply use an inexpensive sub-mixer for the media stuff and feed into one of the optional stereo returns on the big board.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on July 28, 2011, 10:17:46 am
Jake....

I took a peek at your photos and didn't see a lot of stuff "on stage", so am wondering if you couldn't do with a 24 channel desk instead of 32. 

Just a thought.


This has been discussed but for the price difference (< $500) for the 32 vs. 24 we believe the board will better serve us in future for any expansion. 

2 Guitars
1 Bass
1 Keybaord
5 drum mics (maybe more)
7 vocal mics
2 Spoken word mics
1 Computer
1 CD
1 Cassette

That's 21 channels of the top of my head, maybe its gluttony to want a 32 channel, but I have been fighting the battle of not having enough channels for so long that I want to make sure that is not a problem any longer.

 
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: Brad Weber on July 28, 2011, 10:24:52 am
The pictures are helpful.  I was concerned about the peak being really high, but it doesn't look too bad.  Getting the speakers in off the side walls will be a big improvement!!
In fact I'd say it looks relatively low for a single center cluster approach, especially if the intent is to run the mains full range.  Not saying it won't work but the cluster would seem likely to be quite close to the pulpit, the nominal pattern of the speaker does not apply for all frequencies and at some of those frequencies more than one box packed together would create some summation so I can see having some concerns about gain before feedback unless one was careful in selecting the right speakers and location.

Doing some "reverse marketing math" - 124dB max SPL probably equates to 118dB average SPL, subtract another 3-6dB after you flatten the most sensitive bands to have something quasi-musical, which leaves 112dB at 1 meter, 106dB at 2 meters (probably the first listening position), 100dB at 4 meters, 94dB at 8 meters, and 88dB at 16 meters, which is about the back of your room.  If you go without subs, there will be a temptation to try to boost things at the edges of the frequency response of the speakers, which will stress the situation more.
Getting even more technical, the 124dBSPL max output is apparently based on the 99dB/1W/1m sensitivity and the 300W "Program" power rating, so that would be 121dB continuous and 127dB peak.  However, we don't know what the 99dB/1W/1m sensitivity really represents, is it a maximum of 99dB at any frequency, a minimum of 99dB over the stated frequency range or what?  That could be a factor in full range operation as the output at some frequencies could potentially be quite a bit less.

In looking at the changes planned, don't forget to try to include some processing for the speaker system.

As far as the investment in the speaker system versus the console, for many people it comes down to which is more likely to need to change and/or get replaced.  I would guess that many more churches go through multiple mixers with the same speaker system than go through multiple speaker systems with the same mixer.  The mixing needs are typically not only more likely to change but a mixer is also simply often easier and less expensive to change, thus they tend to be more likely to get changed.
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 28, 2011, 10:29:21 am
Jake....

I took a peek at your photos and didn't see a lot of stuff "on stage", so am wondering if you couldn't do with a 24 channel desk instead of 32. 

Just a thought.


This has been discussed but for the price difference (< $500) for the 32 vs. 24 we believe the board will better serve us in future for any expansion. 

2 Guitars
1 Bass
1 Keybaord
5 drum mics (maybe more)
7 vocal mics
2 Spoken word mics
1 Computer
1 CD
1 Cassette

That's 21 channels of the top of my head, maybe its gluttony to want a 32 channel, but I have been fighting the battle of not having enough channels for so long that I want to make sure that is not a problem any longer.

I'll agree that more channels are good.  And don't forget to add EFX returns to your channel count.  Each individual effect will require its own channel.  So if you have a reverb and a delay, add two return channels to the count.

32 it is, then.......

Now you'll be fine until you see how handy it would be to have 10 aux sends!!!
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on July 28, 2011, 11:25:51 am
Getting even more technical, the 124dBSPL max output is apparently based on the 99dB/1W/1m sensitivity and the 300W "Program" power rating, so that would be 121dB continuous and 127dB peak.  However, we don't know what the 99dB/1W/1m sensitivity really represents, is it a maximum of 99dB at any frequency, a minimum of 99dB over the stated frequency range or what?  That could be a factor in full range operation as the output at some frequencies could potentially be quite a bit less.

In looking at the changes planned, don't forget to try to include some processing for the speaker system.



I am fairly new to the Pro Sound world and I am not familiar with the X's and O's of speaker specs.  I am not quite sure how to tell if a certain set of speakers will be more powerful than another.  When I read specs and see one speaker with 122 dB output and another with 128 dB output, when I do the math thats only about 5% difference.  Also almost all of the specs I read have a max output of 120 - 128 dB, is the dB scale exponential (like the richter scale).  I am a mechanical engineer but V=IR was about as far as my studies went into the electrical side of things.

As far as more powerful speakers can anyone recommend some flyable speakers, maybe in the $1200 or less range if possible, but if not we are willing to spend the extra money for a quality job.

 



 
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 28, 2011, 11:50:17 am

I am fairly new to the Pro Sound world and I am not familiar with the X's and O's of speaker specs.  I am not quite sure how to tell if a certain set of speakers will be more powerful than another.  When I read specs and see one speaker with 122 dB output and another with 128 dB output, when I do the math thats only about 5% difference.  Also almost all of the specs I read have a max output of 120 - 128 dB, is the dB scale exponential (like the richter scale).  I am a mechanical engineer but V=IR was about as far as my studies went into the electrical side of things.

As far as more powerful speakers can anyone recommend some flyable speakers, maybe in the $1200 or less range if possible, but if not we are willing to spend the extra money for a quality job.
Indeed decibels are logarithmic.  A 6dB level difference is a doubling, so a speaker rated at 130dBSPL is twice as loud as one rated at 124dBSPL.  This is complicated by a number of factors - peak and average, and other things, so it's not always easy to directly compare two speakers by this one number. 

The inverse square law tells us that the volume halves every doubling of distance, or 6dB, which is where my numbers came from.

Keep in mind that just because a speaker is able to produce a lot of sound, it still has a volume control, so it doesn't have to be louder in practice, but more generation capability gives you more headroom, which is a good thing from both a sound quality standpoint and a longevity standpoint, as more powerful gear will be run less hard compared to less powerful gear at a given output volume.

There are a lot of speakers that may be a better fit than the Yorkvilles, but please tell us if $1200 is per speaker and other money is available for other components - amplifiers, processing, installation labor, etc., or if you're talking $1200 total.
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on July 28, 2011, 12:15:08 pm
please tell us if $1200 is per speaker and other money is available for other components - amplifiers, processing, installation labor, etc., or if you're talking $1200 total.


That price of $1200 would be per speaker and not including labor or processing, as that cost would apply to all no matter what speaker you went with, unless I go with a powered pair. (not likely though)
Title: Re: Yorkville Coliseum Series: Any Experience?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 28, 2011, 12:31:48 pm

That price of $1200 would be per speaker and not including labor or processing, as that cost would apply to all no matter what speaker you went with, unless I go with a powered pair. (not likely though)
Others will probably be able to offer more suggestions, but you may want to look at:

JBL AE series - http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=317&MId=2 for example
The Yorkville Unity Coliseum - http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=5&id=269
and maybe a budget stretcher - Nexo PS15R2 - http://nexo-sa.com/en/products/27/ps15-r2/

Lots of options at lots of price points - hopefully your installer can help you wade through these issues.