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Title: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on February 08, 2019, 12:06:27 pm
Up until now I've done mostly very local and small theatre work. Currently I'm hired for a regional musical. I stepped in on day two and took over what was already set up. SD11 + Cue lab. The theatre I'm currently hired at does snaps from SD11 -> QLab.

I had a visitor from the national touring theatre and it seemed like he was a bit surprised that I did it this way, triggering QLab from the console, as they do it the other way around. They will be taking over the musicals second tour, that was the reason for the visit.

Anyhow. I got a bit surprised myself that they do it the other way around. I'm thinking you don't have your fingers and eyes on the console. Can anyone enlighten me on pro/cons about both procedures which I can't currently see for myself?

And, since I'm handing over the musical for them after my tour, and they do it the other way around, and also will be deploying a Allen & Heath or some sort, my guess is a DLive, how can I hand it over to them as easy as possible?
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 08, 2019, 02:40:20 pm
Up until now I've done mostly very local and small theatre work. Currently I'm hired for a regional musical. I stepped in on day two and took over what was already set up. SD11 + Cue lab. The theatre I'm currently hired at does snaps from SD11 -> QLab.

I had a visitor from the national touring theatre and it seemed like he was a bit surprised that I did it this way, triggering QLab from the console, as they do it the other way around. They will be taking over the musicals second tour, that was the reason for the visit.

Anyhow. I got a bit surprised myself that they do it the other way around. I'm thinking you don't have your fingers and eyes on the console. Can anyone enlighten me on pro/cons about both procedures which I can't currently see for myself?

And, since I'm handing over the musical for them after my tour, and they do it the other way around, and also will be deploying a Allen & Heath or some sort, my guess is a DLive, how can I hand it over to them as easy as possible?

Without knowing more detail, I assume you are using the console as a Go button for QLab. The incoming operator is used to using QLab as a Go button for the console. He will have to rewrite the QLab cue stack to implement his scene control. Since QLab is reasonably powerful automation software as well as sound, vision, or lighting playback and control there may be console control options that are easier to implement as automation cues in QLab than to implement in the console. It depends somewhat which environment you are more comfortable with.

Mac
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on February 08, 2019, 02:56:24 pm
Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Most of the time that I have seen QLab trigger changes on the console is when the console didn't have sufficient scene memories or macros to do whatever the designer wanted. Personally, I like to trigger the playback from the console. But that's me. But sometimes you want a mic or effect to follow the playback and sending the trigger code to the console from QLab is the best way to do it.

There's going to be a fair amount of reprogramming to do on the console, going from a Digico to an Allen and Heath. And you or they will have to reprogram QLab to send cue information to the console if that's how they want it.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on February 08, 2019, 03:22:02 pm
Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Most of the time that I have seen QLab trigger changes on the console is when the console didn't have sufficient scene memories or macros to do whatever the designer wanted. Personally, I like to trigger the playback from the console. But that's me. But sometimes you want a mic or effect to follow the playback and sending the trigger code to the console from QLab is the best way to do it.

There's going to be a fair amount of reprogramming to do on the console, going from a Digico to an Allen and Heath. And you or they will have to reprogram QLab to send cue information to the console if that's how they want it.

I understand it's very up to the operator. I've been mostly mixing bands, and events and such, so I'm used to have my fingers on the console but I've understood that theater is a whole kind of different beast.

The article on the front page of PSW today was a really interesting one.

But even if you want a mic or effect to follow the track from Qlab, you can trigger it from the console, and get a midi back from Qlab. For me (baby steps)..why would you not have fingers on console? Why sit at the laptop?
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 08, 2019, 03:48:26 pm
But even if you want a mic or effect to follow the track from Qlab, you can trigger it from the console, and get a midi back from Qlab. For me (baby steps)..why would you not have fingers on console? Why sit at the laptop?

Having QLab drive the console does not mean not having fingers on the faders, or sitting at a computer. It just means the Go button drives the computer not the console. A Midi button is common for either device. It can be bigger like a mushroom cap button so it's easier to hit or it could be a UDK on the console itself.

Not all automation cues need to be scenes, sometimes it may make sense to just use Midi out of QLab to drive certain controls.

Mac
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on February 08, 2019, 06:37:01 pm
Having QLab drive the console does not mean not having fingers on the faders, or sitting at a computer. It just means the Go button drives the computer not the console. A Midi button is common for either device. It can be bigger like a mushroom cap button so it's easier to hit or it could be a UDK on the console itself.

Not all automation cues need to be scenes, sometimes it may make sense to just use Midi out of QLab to drive certain controls.

Mac

Very good point! Thanks.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: brian maddox on February 08, 2019, 07:18:37 pm
Having QLab drive the console does not mean not having fingers on the faders, or sitting at a computer. It just means the Go button drives the computer not the console. A Midi button is common for either device. It can be bigger like a mushroom cap button so it's easier to hit or it could be a UDK on the console itself.

Not all automation cues need to be scenes, sometimes it may make sense to just use Midi out of QLab to drive certain controls.

Mac

Speaking of Big Go Buttons.  Any favorites?  I'm looking for JUST a GO button.  I have all the other functionality covered.  I'd love it to be some kind of "Mushroom Cap Button".  Just not sure what the best choices of a button are.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 08, 2019, 08:21:54 pm
Speaking of Big Go Buttons.  Any favorites?  I'm looking for JUST a GO button.  I have all the other functionality covered.  I'd love it to be some kind of "Mushroom Cap Button".  Just not sure what the best choices of a button are.

I would use any switch that appeals to you as long as it can be normally open and momentary. Just put it across a midi footswich controller and let that be the midi input to whatever you want to control.

Mac
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on February 09, 2019, 01:08:05 am
Speaking of Big Go Buttons.  Any favorites? 
My favorite is the one that can't be purchased any more: Andy Levis's Duck's Echo Sound controller.


There was another posted here a month or two back. What was it called...?
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on February 09, 2019, 01:13:24 am
But even if you want a mic or effect to follow the track from Qlab, you can trigger it from the console, and get a midi back from Qlab. For me (baby steps)..why would you not have fingers on console? Why sit at the laptop?
It all depends on how you want to execute various parts of the automation and playback.


Sometimes you want the scene GO button on the console to advance the scene automation on the console and a separate button for the playback effects. Sometimes they may not always be in exactly the same order.


It just all depends. It's too complicated an equation to really solve in a vague forum post. Lots of variables go into why you would chose one over the other. And you might do it differently for different shows with exactly the same equipment.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: brian maddox on February 09, 2019, 03:31:48 pm
I would use any switch that appeals to you as long as it can be normally open and momentary. Just put it across a midi footswich controller and let that be the midi input to whatever you want to control.

Mac

Agreed.  I'm just wondering if anyone has any particular favorites based on usability/etc.  I know for me a lot of this comes down to where in my workspace i can put the dang thing. 
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Riley Casey on February 09, 2019, 03:53:48 pm
I'm still happy with my $15 USB numeric keypads.  Velcros onto any console easily, never looses connection with the host .  I've used colored sharpies to make the keys better targets in low light.  Only improvement I'd go for is back lit keys but that starts to drift into the Companion realm and less likely to be slim and lightweight.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: brian maddox on February 09, 2019, 07:49:59 pm
I'm still happy with my $15 USB numeric keypads.  Velcros onto any console easily, never looses connection with the host .  I've used colored sharpies to make the keys better targets in low light.  Only improvement I'd go for is back lit keys but that starts to drift into the Companion realm and less likely to be slim and lightweight.

You've mentioned this solution before, but i need to get a couple of those.  Small, lightweight, cheap.  One of those would make an excellent OMG trigger for my backup machine when the primary goes haywire for whatever reason. 

I'm running two Streamdecks and Companion now, so complicated over the top triggering i've got down.  :)
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on February 11, 2019, 11:27:03 am
Agreed.  I'm just wondering if anyone has any particular favorites based on usability/etc.  I know for me a lot of this comes down to where in my workspace i can put the dang thing.

Here's the thread I (also) created a while ago:

https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=167734.0

I landed on a stream deck myself after valuable input from that thread. Picking it up in a few days hopefully.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on February 11, 2019, 12:02:52 pm
It all depends on how you want to execute various parts of the automation and playback.


Sometimes you want the scene GO button on the console to advance the scene automation on the console and a separate button for the playback effects. Sometimes they may not always be in exactly the same order.


It just all depends. It's too complicated an equation to really solve in a vague forum post. Lots of variables go into why you would chose one over the other. And you might do it differently for different shows with exactly the same equipment.

Indeed. I was just asking for examples, and I think I just figured out one myself.

Pls correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK there is no function in the QL/CL to automatically advance to the next scene, after the previous one has ran for a set amount of time, like a Digico for example?

For instance a song is finished, I don't want to manually skip to the next scene in the CL/QL (reverb off, backup-singers off etc) , so I can use a cue in SCS to trigger the next scene in the Yamaha, which is just a control cue, without audio.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 11, 2019, 12:37:21 pm
Pls correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK there is no function in the QL/CL to automatically advance to the next scene, after the previous one has ran for a set amount of time, like a Digico for example?

You can do this with the UDKs. Scene Inc and Scene Dec increment up or decrement down the scene numbers and each can be a UDK function.

Mac
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on February 11, 2019, 01:01:41 pm
You can do this with the UDKs. Scene Inc and Scene Dec increment up or decrement down the scene numbers and each can be a UDK function.

Mac

Right.. Sorry to ask, but I don't know what UDK is. I just searched through (ctrl+f in the pdf) the yammie reference manual but I couldn't find any instances of "UDK".
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Chris Hindle on February 11, 2019, 01:06:24 pm
Right.. Sorry to ask, but I don't know what UDK is. I just searched through (ctrl+f in the pdf) the yammie reference manual but I couldn't find any instances of "UDK".
User Defined Key.....
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 11, 2019, 01:07:49 pm
Right.. Sorry to ask, but I don't know what UDK is. I just searched through (ctrl+f in the pdf) the yammie reference manual but I couldn't find any instances of "UDK".

"User Defined Key", you access the set up of them in the setup screen, then User Setup, then the tabs at the bottom of the screen.

They are not available in CL/QL Editor, only on the console.

Mac
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on February 11, 2019, 01:13:47 pm
"User Defined Key", you access the set up of them in the setup screen, then User Setup, then the tabs at the bottom of the screen.

They are not available in CL/QL Editor, only on the console.

Mac

Aha, I use those all the time for scene + and scene -. But the function itself, that the "show" advances to the next scene automaticalle after a given amount of time, is not on the CL/QL?

For instance, on the SD11 I'm currently using I have over 100 scenes, but only 30-40 of them are called by me. The rest are something like: I trigger a new cue and audio file from QLab, and the desk goes into the "song-scene", but I've programmed that whenever a singer has a verse, the desk just pushes up that singers fader, after a set amount of time, and so on. So a song can have for instance 9 scenes, but only the first one is triggered by me.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: brian maddox on February 11, 2019, 01:19:29 pm
Aha, I use those all the time for scene + and scene -. But the function itself, that the "show" advances to the next scene automaticalle after a given amount of time, is not on the CL/QL?

For instance, on the SD11 I'm currently using I have over 100 scenes, but only 30-40 of them are called by me. The rest are something like: I trigger a new cue and audio file from QLab, and the desk goes into the "song-scene", but I've programmed that whenever a singer has a verse, the desk just pushes up that singers fader, after a set amount of time, and so on. So a song can have for instance 9 scenes, but only the first one is triggered by me.

I don't think the CL/QL has that functionality.

However, the Beta version of Companion supports CL/QL functions and so could theoretically provide this function.  You could also do this directly from QLab if you wanted.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on February 11, 2019, 01:25:04 pm
I don't think the CL/QL has that functionality.

However, the Beta version of Companion supports CL/QL functions and so could theoretically provide this function.  You could also do this directly from QLab if you wanted.

That's what I thought. I just downloaded the latest version of the Companion (build 1.3.0). I have yet to understand how to couple Companion with the CL/QL. Pr now I thought that I had to go through the SCS to send midi triggers to the desk.

Is it possible to load the SCS-"file/template/settings", in companion, and have control over the yammie directly, as well as SCS, though the stream deck?

For instance controlling SCS, and also have a button on the stream deck to "mute group 1" on the board? Or would I have to make a button on the companion to be a hotkey in SCS, which then sends a midi trigger to mute the desk? My guess is that I can't since I only have one midi input option into the desk.

FYI. I'm mentioning both SD11 and CL/QL, Qlab  and SCS because my normal setup is Yamaha + SCS, but currently I'm using SD11 + Qlab. So SCS/Yamaha is the point of interest for me.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 11, 2019, 01:42:32 pm
Aha, I use those all the time for scene + and scene -. But the function itself, that the "show" advances to the next scene automaticalle after a given amount of time, is not on the CL/QL?

For instance, on the SD11 I'm currently using I have over 100 scenes, but only 30-40 of them are called by me. The rest are something like: I trigger a new cue and audio file from QLab, and the desk goes into the "song-scene", but I've programmed that whenever a singer has a verse, the desk just pushes up that singers fader, after a set amount of time, and so on. So a song can have for instance 9 scenes, but only the first one is triggered by me.

Yes, that would need to be done via Midi control from QLab. The only Yamaha console that can chase timecode is the DM2000.

Mac
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on February 11, 2019, 01:45:22 pm
Yes, that would need to be done via Midi control from QLab. The only Yamaha console that can chase timecode is the DM2000.

Mac

Thanks! That eliminates that option.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: brian maddox on February 11, 2019, 08:14:54 pm
That's what I thought. I just downloaded the latest version of the Companion (build 1.3.0). I have yet to understand how to couple Companion with the CL/QL. Pr now I thought that I had to go through the SCS to send midi triggers to the desk.

Is it possible to load the SCS-"file/template/settings", in companion, and have control over the yammie directly, as well as SCS, though the stream deck?

For instance controlling SCS, and also have a button on the stream deck to "mute group 1" on the board? Or would I have to make a button on the companion to be a hotkey in SCS, which then sends a midi trigger to mute the desk? My guess is that I can't since I only have one midi input option into the desk.

FYI. I'm mentioning both SD11 and CL/QL, Qlab  and SCS because my normal setup is Yamaha + SCS, but currently I'm using SD11 + Qlab. So SCS/Yamaha is the point of interest for me.

The Yamaha module is Bleeding Edgeware at the moment, so is not included in the current "stable" build.  I've just downloaded and looked at it, and currently the Yamaha functionality includes basic channel on/off/level control as well as output on/off/level control and scene recall.  This functionality, while technically using MIDI, would be transmitted to the CL/QL console via the network connection over IP.

So, once this passes Beta, you could certainly use it to do exactly what you wish to do.  You can have a single Streamdeck button start a cue on SCS/Qlab while simultaneously unmuting/raising a channel.  You could then have that same button push cause ANOTHER cue to happen X number of ms later along with a corresponding Audio change and so on and so on with any amount of pause inbetween.  None of this is tracking to any sort of Timecode of course.  It's just a series of timed "Commands" being sent from companion to various devices.  But it could be done this way.

Of course you could also create the cue stack in SCS/Qlab to control both playback and MIDI control of the CL/QL and just use companion to trigger that cue stack.  Just depends on which way suits your workflow best.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Magnus Högkvist on February 11, 2019, 08:18:36 pm
I just downloaded the latest version of the Companion (build 1.3.0). I have yet to understand how to couple Companion with the CL/QL.
You will have to use a beta (bleeding edge as they call it) build to try the CL/QL implementations. https://builds.bitfocus.io/companion/
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: brian maddox on February 11, 2019, 08:23:27 pm
You will have to use a beta (bleeding edge as they call it) build to try the CL/QL implementations. https://builds.bitfocus.io/companion/

^^this.  :)
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on February 12, 2019, 10:31:08 am
The Yamaha module is Bleeding Edgeware at the moment, so is not included in the current "stable" build.  I've just downloaded and looked at it, and currently the Yamaha functionality includes basic channel on/off/level control as well as output on/off/level control and scene recall.  This functionality, while technically using MIDI, would be transmitted to the CL/QL console via the network connection over IP.

So, once this passes Beta, you could certainly use it to do exactly what you wish to do.  You can have a single Streamdeck button start a cue on SCS/Qlab while simultaneously unmuting/raising a channel.  You could then have that same button push cause ANOTHER cue to happen X number of ms later along with a corresponding Audio change and so on and so on with any amount of pause inbetween.  None of this is tracking to any sort of Timecode of course.  It's just a series of timed "Commands" being sent from companion to various devices.  But it could be done this way.

Of course you could also create the cue stack in SCS/Qlab to control both playback and MIDI control of the CL/QL and just use companion to trigger that cue stack.  Just depends on which way suits your workflow best.

Ah, so it uses the ethernet port in both computer and desk?
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: brian maddox on February 12, 2019, 03:33:47 pm
Ah, so it uses the ethernet port in both computer and desk?

Yes.  Basically Companion works off of a Local Network.  I usually set mine up as a separate control network with my QLab machines, My primary Control MBP, and my Console all on one switch.  You CAN do the whole shooting match on the Dante Primary network switch if that helps square things WRT available NIC.  I've done this before and it works fine, but it is putting a few eggs in one basket so YMMV.
Title: Re: Musicals/Theatre: Controlling Q-software from desk, or vice versa?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on February 13, 2019, 11:44:18 am
Yes.  Basically Companion works off of a Local Network.  I usually set mine up as a separate control network with my QLab machines, My primary Control MBP, and my Console all on one switch.  You CAN do the whole shooting match on the Dante Primary network switch if that helps square things WRT available NIC.  I've done this before and it works fine, but it is putting a few eggs in one basket so YMMV.

Awesome! Thanks for the help. Now I have a better picture of things.