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Title: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 09, 2019, 03:55:15 pm
Hey folks,

I'll try to keep this brief (ha).  Hoping I've overlooked something obvious in my search or looking for some real-world feedback from any users of the cabs I'm considering. 

Single-person sound-co operator, primarily dealing with live bands (no EDM/DJ etc).  Been building up my personal inventory over the last 6 years and getting close to full-time launch.  "Buy-Once, Cry-Once" has treated me well with my personal inventory so far, and because of my location I don't get the opportunity to demo a lot of gear before I buy, so these forums have been incredible and I trust the contributors.  My investment money comes from my dayjob which is quite fruitful, but the more I spend on gear before launching, the longer I have to put off the launch.  Also have a wedding to pay for next year...

I've broken my inventory into two systems: 
A - DSL SM80's over JTR Orbit Shifters, iLive idr16/R72/Dante (outdoor small festivals, indoor concerts)
B - EV ZXA5's over EAW FR250z (x1), iLive idr32/T112/Dante (weddings, small indoor concerts, talking heads)

I'm very happy with Rig A, and it rolls into place nicely with my ramps and pre-rigged racks.  Sounds great, very efficient.  Info provided just for consideration into the big plan.  This thread is about my long term plans for Rig B.  Whatever I choose, it would be nice if it could serve as side-fill or drum monitors with the larger rig(s).  It's mostly just me mixing but occasionally there is a guest BE.  Rigs are never used at the same time since there's only one of me.

With Rig B, I'm finding myself facing stairs at load-in more often than not and I don't yet have the clout to turn away these gigs.  I could hire a helper, but then I need to rely on them and I don't have the work to offer them enough to be reliable in my opinion. 

The ZXA5's were one of the first things in my inventory, and I "like" them but don't "love" them, but my clients for that rig think they sound wonderful and I own them already so.... not looking to change those at this time, need a little more ROI on them before I upgrade those.  I mention this because although I like "matched" systems, the EV's may not be in the future for this rig and EV never made a real subwoofer in the ZX series anyway.

However, the single 2x15" subwoofer (at 125lbs plus casters) is a bit much for me and a dolly at the end of the night and I'd love something under (or around) 100 lbs that I could walk up some stairs.  It rolls in nicely, but if I can roll in I'd rather bring the Orbit Shifters. 

Trouble is, the EAW is fairly efficient for a BR (101dB/1w/1m), has near-enough output (137 peak) for what it cost me and gives me enough near 40hz (-3 @ 40, -10 @ 33) to keep me happy.  Its not the best sounding subwoofer (in an A/B against my Orbit Shifters the SQ difference is laughable), so I've been wanting to move onto something else from a sound quality perspective anyway, but I'd like to improve portability at the same time without blowing a bunch of money for a "sideways" step in terms of sound quality.  I've made good ROI on that sub, so I'm happy to move onto something else as long as it fits the "grand plan".  I'm a bit of a bass addict so I find myself near clip at most of these events on the single sub already, so not really wanting to trade much on output unless the solution is scalable with multiples.  I would consider 2-4 cabinets for this application.

I've definitely drank the Danley kool-aid when it comes to tops, and my long-term plan is to add a larger Danley rig to my inventory once the work is there to support it, so keeping all-Danley for this purchase makes some business/branding/support sense. 

Also related, I'm planning on picking up a DNA SC48 processor this year for Rig A to give me better limiting and remote networking plus a few more DSP input paths for aux-subs and fills, so having factory presets for Danley boxes close-at-hand would tend to push me that direction for Rig B. 

The obvious DSL choices are the THmini and new THmini15.  The downside to those cabs is the lack of extension on paper below 50hz but that may or may not matter to the intended clients.  It would brand-match, and would probably sound pretty good with the SM80's overtop too (for high-SQ small-crowd type shows).  Any users of those boxes out in the wild with feedback on the extension with live bands?  From what I understand, extension in the LF corner in multiple tapped horn deployments doesn't extend the way conventional horns do.

I've been quite happy with the Orbit Shifters (build quality, sound quality, tremendous output/$ ratio), so the other obvious option is the 67lb 2x12" JTR Captivator 212Pro.  I have a couple spare Crest Pro-Lite 3.0 amps (500w@8r/1,000w@4r, bridgeable) not doing anything, and an EV DC-One processor I can use for this though, so passive is a very real option and might better fit future plans once I have another processor or I can just use the DNA for everything and keep the DC-one as a backup.  The lack of any factory presets for JTR stuff and potentially low resale value (lack of brand awareness outside these forums) make me cautious, otherwise the C212Pro sure seems to check a lot of boxes.  According to the info on data-bass, those amps would make a good match to those subs.

I'm leaning a little more towards passive for subs, I deal with enough spilled drinks on my sub already on these small gigs that the last thing I need is wine running into the DSP controls or breaking off an encoder from an excited audience member.  I'd prefer remote amps/DSP, and bonus points if I can access those settings over ethernet and monitor the levels when someone else is at the wheel, which I could do with the DNA processor and existing amplifier inventory, but some new powered subs are offering that right out of the box.

Other contenders:
EV ETX18SP - brand match the current tops, specs meet my spl/extension needs, but not much lighter than what I currently use.
EV QRX118S - brand match the current tops, light enough to be considered, but limited response below 50hz.
Yamaha DXS18XLF - powered, Dante option, but still over 100 lbs.  Doesn't fit much of my other inventory.
QSC KW181 - From what I've heard online wouldn't be much of an SQ upgrade, but 83lbs is attractive.  Doesn't fit much of my other inventory.
JBL SRX818SP - I've never been let down by JBL subs before, light enough, but doesn't fit much of my other inventory.  Benefit is the remote networking.

What's missing from this list?  RCF, VUE, EAW have anything to compete?

Most of the folks I've seen operating locally in this sort of scale are using JBL or Yorkville subs but not many of them will cross-rent. 

So, I realize my quest is looking to defy physics with something that is small, lightweight, loud, and deep.  I should be picking two, but I'm willing to compromise extension or output, but not both.  JTR Growlers come to mind, because they are light enough by themselves and can be stacked up to gain extension and output but they don't come up used very often and when they do the distance/shipping makes it less attractive.  Also buying used Subs without being able to audition them first comes with its own risks.

Danley TH118 comes to mind as something that's a little smaller/lighter than my Orbit Shifters and would check a lot of boxes, but I don't know as I'd be able to haul 160 lbs up stairs any easier than the 4-wheeled EAW I have now on a dolly.  Then the question of, what if I like it better than the Orbit Shifters?  Then my GAS gets more fuel for the fire I suppose.  I've also considered just buying a plane ticket to GA to visit Danley HQ and audition some stuff in person, but without my rig to compare it to I might leave wanting one of everything, lol.  The TH118 would make more sense if I didn't already own the Orbit Shifters but doesn't really fix the weight issue.

Did I mention efficiency is important?  I'm usually limited to a single 15-20A circuit for the rig, some LED wash lights, stage power and monitors at these gigs.

Thanks for reading all of this.  Someone else out there must be schlepping subs up flights of stairs for bands?
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Mike Christy on January 09, 2019, 05:41:28 pm
I'd K.I.S.S if I'da do it again, buy the complimentary sub that goes with the tops, the ZXA1 sub. If you dont need the Shifters for those applications, dont get another Shifter-like sub (TH115/8). Have a true A rig and true B rig. Or if you want more performance in that size, look at the RCF offerings, but higher price, you get what you pay for. Bottom line, dont invest in a second rig that is almost what you have now. Stay powered for the B rig, no sense in rolling in a rack when you dont have to. Just my thoughts...
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Lou Kohley on January 09, 2019, 06:43:36 pm
I personally love the 118 specifically because it's so easy to move. Even dragging it up stairs is not an impossible task.

I have the exact rig you are talking about SM80/TH118, DSL SC48 processor into Crest Pro Lite amps. I find it very easy to get in and out of most every venue. I used to work with a wedding band around the Tahoe area. They was always an older building that had to go up the steps or something. After I started using the Danley system I found I was less tired from moving everything in and out and could keep working by myself. Helpers are nice but sometimes I couldn't find one available.

Do you ever come down to the US? My rig is kind of hanging around currently as I recently moved to Olympia WA and don't have a client base here yet. Perhaps you would want to check them out and see if they would work for you.

LOU 
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2019, 07:26:57 pm
Just something to consider.

If the output spl is high enough, a lightweight sub will walk around on the floor.

They need to have enough weight to keep them solid.

Some of the ones mentioned will walk around, even though they are "pretty heavy".

But that is because they have greater output
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Mike Pyle on January 10, 2019, 01:34:42 am
I haven't had a chance to listen to them yet, but the specs on the Yamaha DXS15XLF (89 lbs) and passive CXS15XLF (79 lbs) might make them worth considering.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on January 10, 2019, 03:59:23 am
Just a quick FWIW, there are a lot of people (including DJs) that are happy with a 12" tapped horn which gets to around 55Hz. Obviously it won't drop low, but you can get a lot of "kick" from a fairly small box. For live rock, it might be just what you need.

Chris
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 12:55:45 pm
Wow I just skimmed through this on my cell phone and I wrote a LONG thread. Thanks to those who stuck through it!
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 12:58:12 pm
I'd K.I.S.S if I'da do it again, buy the complimentary sub that goes with the tops, the ZXA1 sub. If you dont need the Shifters for those applications, dont get another Shifter-like sub (TH115/8). Have a true A rig and true B rig. Or if you want more performance in that size, look at the RCF offerings, but higher price, you get what you pay for. Bottom line, dont invest in a second rig that is almost what you have now. Stay powered for the B rig, no sense in rolling in a rack when you dont have to. Just my thoughts...


Hi Mike, wise words, I appreciate your insight. 


I just wish the ZXA1 sub was a better fit for what I have in mind.  Even when paired with the ZXA1 top they (EV in their user manual) recommend a 2:1 ratio for bass-heavy program.  The ZXA5 has another 7dB max SPL that was presumably measured in the same way as the ZXA1.  I'd probably need a whole fleet of them!  I heard it once as a drum-monitor sub and was underwhelmed.  Then again, 3 per side might pull it off... haha.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 01:03:27 pm
I personally love the 118 specifically because it's so easy to move. Even dragging it up stairs is not an impossible task.

I have the exact rig you are talking about SM80/TH118, DSL SC48 processor into Crest Pro Lite amps. I find it very easy to get in and out of most every venue. I used to work with a wedding band around the Tahoe area. They was always an older building that had to go up the steps or something. After I started using the Danley system I found I was less tired from moving everything in and out and could keep working by myself. Helpers are nice but sometimes I couldn't find one available.

Do you ever come down to the US? My rig is kind of hanging around currently as I recently moved to Olympia WA and don't have a client base here yet. Perhaps you would want to check them out and see if they would work for you.

LOU


Hi Lou,


I don't get off "the rock" (Vancouver Island) often but in the grand scheme of things you're very close-by.  I very much appreciate your insight.  I've heard from several folks that the TH118 is easy up stairs which is hard for me to imagine because my Orbit Shifter is NOT, haha.  There is a definite difference in height, depth and weight, as well as the fact that the OS-Pro is a bit top-heavy with the driver in the top part of the cabinet versus the TH118 design. 


That's a very generous offer and if I find the time to do so I will send you a PM and take you up on that.  I'd love to hear a TH118 first-hand and maybe wheel it around.  It would offer the output/extension/brand matching I'm looking for across both rigs since I will likely upgrade the ZXA5 to some kind of SM60F/SM96/SH95 when I've gotten a little more return on it.

What were you hauling prior to the Danley rig that you found tougher to move around? 


Appreciate the thoughts, and good luck with the new location!  Welcome to the PNW
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 01:06:37 pm
Just something to consider.

If the output spl is high enough, a lightweight sub will walk around on the floor.

They need to have enough weight to keep them solid.

Some of the ones mentioned will walk around, even though they are "pretty heavy".

But that is because they have greater output

Very good point Ivan, one that I hadn't considered. Likely one of the reasons it's so hard for me to find the perfect solution, it simply isn't practical to have a lot of output without a lot of weight. 


Perhaps a few small cabs strapped together would suffice for my needs, but at the end of the day I think I'd spend less and be happier with the end result with something a little bigger, hence looking at things like the EV QRX118S or Danley Thmini15.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 01:10:21 pm
I haven't had a chance to listen to them yet, but the specs on the Yamaha DXS15XLF (89 lbs) and passive CXS15XLF (79 lbs) might make them worth considering.


Hi Mike, you pointed something out here that I seem to have completely missed on my first post.  Which is to consider the 15" versions of some of the subs.  I don't know why I immediately looked at the 18" ones but I could trim some weight for sure with a 15" BR box.  Those Yamaha cabs look very nice but I am concerned about that fabric-on-the-outside grille holding up long term.  I guess time will tell.  The powered version with Dante would allow me to use it as a Dante break-out for my current powered tops too, which would save a little cabling.  My powered monitors and Rig B mains all use powercon, I wish more of the powered subs I've been considering had that option to standardize my cables and provide a little more ruggedness to one particular vibration-related point of failure.  Thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 01:17:44 pm
Just a quick FWIW, there are a lot of people (including DJs) that are happy with a 12" tapped horn which gets to around 55Hz. Obviously it won't drop low, but you can get a lot of "kick" from a fairly small box. For live rock, it might be just what you need.

Chris


Hi Chris, that's the kind of feedback I'm looking for on these wee-little subs. 

My concern with lack of extension is that it will sound one-notey with walking bass lines etc.  I know I'm happy with 40hz extension (Both rig A and B can deliver that easily now) but I don't know how much bass and kick FUNdamental I'd lose with a 50-55hz cutoff point.  I've tried high-passing my current subs as a listening test, but it's not really a fair comparison since the cutoff slope won't match the box I'm trying to imitate.  I used to have some 15" W-bins loaded with JBL drivers that didn't go very low and I really didn't enjoy mixing on them, but it was a pretty old design and likely not optimized anywhere near what a current production product can deliver so probably not a fair comparison.

Is your experience with the Danley THmini or a DIY type tapped horn?  Most of the reviews I read on the THmini talk about how great it sounds for it's size.  My question is, if I close my eyes will I still think it's impressive?
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Nathan Riddle on January 10, 2019, 02:00:44 pm
Is your experience with the Danley THmini or a DIY type tapped horn?  Most of the reviews I read on the THmini talk about how great it sounds for it's size.  My question is, if I close my eyes will I still think it's impressive?

Same output as 118 above 50hz I've been told.

For kick/bass music I think it will be more than adequate.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Rob Spence on January 10, 2019, 02:47:12 pm

Hi Lou,


I don't get off "the rock" (Vancouver Island) often but in the grand scheme of things you're very close-by.  I very much appreciate your insight.  I've heard from several folks that the TH118 is easy up stairs which is hard for me to imagine because my Orbit Shifter is NOT, haha.  There is a definite difference in height, depth and weight, as well as the fact that the OS-Pro is a bit top-heavy with the driver in the top part of the cabinet versus the TH118 design. 


That's a very generous offer and if I find the time to do so I will send you a PM and take you up on that.  I'd love to hear a TH118 first-hand and maybe wheel it around.  It would offer the output/extension/brand matching I'm looking for across both rigs since I will likely upgrade the ZXA5 to some kind of SM60F/SM96/SH95 when I've gotten a little more return on it.

What were you hauling prior to the Danley rig that you found tougher to move around? 


Appreciate the thoughts, and good luck with the new location!  Welcome to the PNW

I now have TH118s as well as KW181s. The pair of Danleys replaced 4 JTR Growlers.

The Growlers did fine for me for a long time. They were first gen models bought new. I powered the 4 with a QSC PL6.0.

My problem was moving and transporting them. I added caster boards but 4 used up too much space. To get around that I stacked and strapped them. However, the handles were not in a useful configuration for me and even two of us struggled to stack & unstuck.

The 2 TH118s use about the same trailer space but they go lower and louder than the 4 Growlers.

I (69yo) can move them myself. Surprised the heck out of me.

I use them generally under a pair of EV QRX212s per side, mostly outdoors.

My B rig is ZXa5s over KW181s. Sometimes one sub per side and sometimes with a pair. Usually indoors.
I like the form factor of the KW181. Not too heavy and it rolls nice. I wish there were another pair of handles for lifting when on the wheels though.



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Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on January 10, 2019, 04:01:42 pm
What's your budget for this?

My favorite compact "I can carry it everywhere myself"-rig is d&b Y7P/YSub.
It's pricey and the SQ is probably higher than your "A" rig, but it fits nicely into "Buy once, cry once".

The whole system breaks down to 5 items,
2U amp rack
Dual flight case for Y7P+stand adapters and cables.
2x Ysub
A bag for the loudspeaker stands.

I've done both talking heads and regular concerts with this system, very happy with it.

On the budget side I would look for a deal on a Presonus SL328/SL18s-system.
Dave Gunness did some work on that, it sound absolutely fantastic for the price.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 04:19:27 pm
I now have TH118s as well as KW181s. The pair of Danleys replaced 4 JTR Growlers.

The Growlers did fine for me for a long time. They were first gen models bought new. I powered the 4 with a QSC PL6.0.

My problem was moving and transporting them. I added caster boards but 4 used up too much space. To get around that I stacked and strapped them. However, the handles were not in a useful configuration for me and even two of us struggled to stack & unstuck.

The 2 TH118s use about the same trailer space but they go lower and louder than the 4 Growlers.

I (69yo) can move them myself. Surprised the heck out of me.

I use them generally under a pair of EV QRX212s per side, mostly outdoors.

My B rig is ZXa5s over KW181s. Sometimes one sub per side and sometimes with a pair. Usually indoors.
I like the form factor of the KW181. Not too heavy and it rolls nice. I wish there were another pair of handles for lifting when on the wheels though.




Thanks Rob that's great intel, especially regarding the Growlers.  The Orbit Shifters I own are quite easy for me to move across solid ground and/or tilt into a van or onto a dock, but up 23 stairs... no thanks! 


Have you tried hauling those TH118's up any stairs by yourself?  How are the KW181's to lift and walk with?  This body has half the years on it that yours does, so if you can do it, I *should* be fine, or else I need to more closely examine other parts of my life.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 04:20:39 pm
Same output as 118 above 50hz I've been told.

For kick/bass music I think it will be more than adequate.


Well that's very interesting... thanks Nathan.  Any experience personally or just what you've heard?
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 04:26:57 pm
What's your budget for this?

My favorite compact "I can carry it everywhere myself"-rig is d&b Y7P/YSub.
It's pricey and the SQ is probably higher than your "A" rig, but it fits nicely into "Buy once, cry once".

The whole system breaks down to 5 items,
2U amp rack
Dual flight case for Y7P+stand adapters and cables.
2x Ysub
A bag for the loudspeaker stands.

I've done both talking heads and regular concerts with this system, very happy with it.

On the budget side I would look for a deal on a Presonus SL328/SL18s-system.
Dave Gunness did some work on that, it sound absolutely fantastic for the price.


Hi Helge,


Thanks for chiming in.  I thought someone might ask that budget question.  Really depends on what it gets me, and how many of "it" I need and how long it will last me.  Just had a quick look at that dream system and yes it looks fanstastic but I fear what that system would set me back.  However, you're right it would be a solid investment for many years and very flexible.  I see the Y-sub is 115lbs, is it relatively ergonomic though to facilitate some one-person lifting? 


I have lots of respect for Dave Gunness but very little left for Presonus unfortunately.  Still, that's a great suggestion that I'll also look into, thank you for the tip.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Nathan Riddle on January 10, 2019, 04:52:33 pm

Well that's very interesting... thanks Nathan.  Any experience personally or just what you've heard?

Ara Ayrassian is who told me, but don't hold either of us to our word without talking to Ara directly ;)

I own TH118's and have demoed the TH-Mini. I love my TH118's. Wasn't able to run the mini full-tilt, they obviously sound good...

A QSC PLD 4.5 in a 2U rack with all processing internal next to your snake and 3x/4x speakon make a small killer passive system.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on January 10, 2019, 05:02:02 pm

Hi Helge,


Thanks for chiming in.  I thought someone might ask that budget question.  Really depends on what it gets me, and how many of "it" I need and how long it will last me.  Just had a quick look at that dream system and yes it looks fanstastic but I fear what that system would set me back.  However, you're right it would be a solid investment for many years and very flexible.  I see the Y-sub is 115lbs, is it relatively ergonomic though to facilitate some one-person lifting? 


I have lots of respect for Dave Gunness but very little left for Presonus unfortunately.  Still, that's a great suggestion that I'll also look into, thank you for the tip.

In my opinion the YSub is well balanced an easy to handle. I can stack them 3 high by myself or load them into a van easely.
Itís a ęone manĽ-sub when you handle it, putting it down on the floor and back up again on itís wheels is pretty easy for one person.

Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 06:41:34 pm
In my opinion the YSub is well balanced an easy to handle. I can stack them 3 high by myself or load them into a van easely.
Itís a ęone manĽ-sub when you handle it, putting it down on the floor and back up again on itís wheels is pretty easy for one person.


Thanks Helge that's what I was hoping to hear.   Now to read up on it some more and find out how much this little kit will cost me. 
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 06:53:38 pm
Ara Ayrassian is who told me, but don't hold either of us to our word without talking to Ara directly ;)

I own TH118's and have demoed the TH-Mini. I love my TH118's. Wasn't able to run the mini full-tilt, they obviously sound good...

A QSC PLD 4.5 in a 1U rack with all processing internal next to your snake and 3x/4x speakon make a small killer passive system.


Thanks Nathan, yeah I didn't think SQ would be the issue with the THmini, just worried about extension but I'm going to spend some time with my current rigs at home with some aggressive HPF's around 55hz and see if I'm still happy with some pre-recorded music. Just so hard to tell without being at a gig competing with stage wash.


I'll ask you what I'm asking everyone else, ever hauled your TH118's up some stairs by yourself and lived to tell the tale?


I don't think a PLD will fit in a 1U rack, but I totally agree.  Right now my rack for that rig is a 10-space shock rack containing my iLive iDR16 with Dante card, 1RU UPS, two Crest Pro-Lite 3.0's and a QSC PLD4.2 which gives me four monitor mixes (PLD) plus one 3.0 bridged on my sub with one 3.0 as a redundant backup.  I also have four of the same monitors that are active versions so I can do 8 matching monitors with that little rack.  One Cat5 cable out to my mixer surface, power into the UPS, and XLR/speakon to/from the stage, it's pretty slick. 


My bigger rack is just a larger version of the same thing, with my idr32 mixer, pro-lite 7.5's, a distro, media player, 2 channels of wireless and DMX splitter.  I can use the Dante cards to do a split and have a separate monitor/FOH console setup with the two racks combined.


For the next "stair" gig I was going to split that 10RU rack into a pair of 4RU racks I have kicking around for the sake of portability, one with the IDR16 and UPS, and the other with the PLD and one of the Crests, and use my powered monitors so I can use the processing in the PLD as a one-channel sub amp and leave the 3.0 as a spare for emergencies.  If I went 100% powered for this Rig B thing, I could just bring that 4RU rack with the mixer and UPS which would be pretty swell.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Rob Spence on January 10, 2019, 10:07:13 pm

Thanks Rob that's great intel, especially regarding the Growlers.  The Orbit Shifters I own are quite easy for me to move across solid ground and/or tilt into a van or onto a dock, but up 23 stairs... no thanks! 


Have you tried hauling those TH118's up any stairs by yourself?  How are the KW181's to lift and walk with?  This body has half the years on it that yours does, so if you can do it, I *should* be fine, or else I need to more closely examine other parts of my life.

Well, at this point I donít do solo gigs unless the load in is rolling cases. I donít carry the KW subs. I roll them. I can stack them if need be but drafting a bystander can work.
I donít do stairs.



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Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 10, 2019, 10:34:48 pm
Fair enough Rob, thanks again.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Steve Litscher on January 11, 2019, 12:46:40 am
You touched on them briefly - the JTR C212Pro subs - and I'd like to revisit them if you don't mind.

We have six (6) of them. All are active. They are *monsters* when it comes to output for rock shows. I would strongly encourage checking them out.

The active versions weigh-in at under 75-lbs. We can run four of them on a single 20A circuit, no problems whatsoever. They have real world, usable output to 39Hz (+/-3 dB of "Jeff measurements" (i.e., under-promised and over-delivered)). They are easily moved by one person.

We run ours with Jeff's 3TXs, Yamaha's DSR112s, and RCF's NX45a and TTL6-A. They play nicely with everything. I typically LPF them at around 85Hz.

If you'd like to go passive, Jeff will happily share with you all of the recommended settings for limiting, crossover, etc.. If you decide to go active, the amplifier plate is recessed into the cabinet; it would be really easy to make a "spill deflector" if you're worried about someone spilling liquid on top of the subs. Given how good the active versions work, I wouldn't even consider passive. :-)

Four of the C212Pro are plenty for most "reasonable" outdoor gigs. I've used them in beer tents that measure 120x50 (feet), and have had plenty of headroom. Two will cover most any bar gig.

They really are great subs.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 11, 2019, 01:06:05 am
Well, at this point I donít do solo gigs unless the load in is rolling cases. I donít carry the KW subs. I roll them. I can stack them if need be but drafting a bystander can work.
I donít do stairs.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Rob,  you are 15 years older than me and still having fun and kicking ass.  I hope I can take care of myself and still have 15 good years ahead of me.

Back on topic.  The KW181's do very well for us and our clients,  they are easy to move and pack.  The problem is the next step up is a lot more boxes.

I have had a few chances to run the TH118's,  they are much cleaner, louder and lower than 4 kw181's (two a side).   The problem is you can get a lot done with those four 181's and the next step up you need more than a pair of TH118's.  I am thinking of replacing 12 Meyer 650P-R2's with 8 TH118XL's. 

I wish I could be more help,  I think that the OP is highly focused on specs when the client requirements and his logistics should dictate the purchase.



Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Lou Kohley on January 11, 2019, 02:11:03 am
My first rig was a QSC KW setup. Two 112s and two 181s. It was fine and got the job done but I was always running out of gas or just not happy with it. With stair gig I had to lift the subs or find a friends to help. Kind of cumbersome.

I picked up a smaller Danley system used, mostly because of all the buzz around the SM80 and 118  on this forum. The rig was SM60s and TH112s. I loved the sound of this rig. The SM60 while being a tighter pattern than what I needed was incredible. I had dollies made for the subs at Space Case in Sacramento. This got me in and out ok but the covers I got were full body and that made it a pain to use. Going up stairs usually meant dragging them up as the 112 doesn't have wheels.

Still I wanted a little more. Pole mounting was a big deal because of the weddings. A better mount for the top box as well. The stock SM60 pole is a little far back and makes the cabinet front heavy. That made it so you had to put the leg forward on a tripod. I didn't like that so I got the mounting yoke and attached it to a K&m sleeve. This gave me tilt and a balanced speaker. Now however the yoke had to be detached every time and the speakers put back in the covers. Huge time waster.

So I did the buy once cry once and got the SM80/TH118 system. They weren't selling the DNA amps yet but were out of the Danley badged pro lites. So I got a pair of Crest Pro Lite 7.5 and when I was looking at dsp the DNA series came out. So I got the SC48 processor.

I had a steady gig for a little over a year in the same space with this rig and really had the time to listen and analyze it (Smaart). I ended up using the stock preset that Danley has for this rig but ended up removing the +2or3db bump at 2K or so. I liked the sound better without it and it didn't affect the phase trace enough for me to be concerned. This is my personal opinion and I'm not at all saying it's right. The guys that designed this box are way smarter than me. I just made an aesthetic choice.

Stairs with the 118 is not that big a deal. It's like pulling a loaded dolly up the stairs. Just take it slow one step at a time, lift with your knees, etc.
Additional help makes it way easier and I would eat some of the profit on a gig in order to pay help when I need it.

LOU
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Matthias McCready on January 11, 2019, 02:28:59 am
I am not sure if this is what you are looking for but I know Meyer makes some smaller boxes. Obviously, they are powered.

I used a USW-1 sub for an event a few months ago and was quite pleased for the size (that is about the same weight of what you have now).

I know they make a couple of smaller subs (USW-210 and MM-10)

I am getting a demo from my local rep for the MM-10 in the next few weeks, not quite sure what to expect for such a small box! On paper, they go low enough for you, and they are not very heavy. However limited output and cost may be a barrier. Should be interesting to listen to.

---
While I haven't heard the Y sub, all of the D&B rigs I have mixed on lately have been glorious, so that would be another great option, of the so many which have been given.



Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on January 11, 2019, 04:02:11 am
Hi Chris, that's the kind of feedback I'm looking for on these wee-little subs. 

My concern with lack of extension is that it will sound one-notey with walking bass lines etc.

FWIW, I haven't tried the 12" THs myself. I did a lot of reading around about them, though, as they were a contender when I came to make my current set of subs (15" ported, which don't go as loud as the 12" THs, but are flat to 40Hz).

You'll find that, as the bassist plays lower, the tonality of the instrument will change going down from A to E at the bottom end.
IIRC, A is somewhere in the 50-55Hz region, while E is 41Hz. So you'll get the fundamental of the A note, but only the harmonics of the E. Most bass instruments have stronger harmonics than fundamental, so the difference won't be massive.

I'd expect most members of this forum to notice the difference, but the average punter is unlikely to. Ever looked at the LF response of your average 1x15" bass amp?

I don't think a compact sub is ever going to sound impressive with your eyes closed, but the point of these cabinets is a lot of sound from a small box, and the good ones do that very well.

Chris
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 11, 2019, 12:29:52 pm
You touched on them briefly - the JTR C212Pro subs - and I'd like to revisit them if you don't mind.

We have six (6) of them. All are active. They are *monsters* when it comes to output for rock shows. I would strongly encourage checking them out.

The active versions weigh-in at under 75-lbs. We can run four of them on a single 20A circuit, no problems whatsoever. They have real world, usable output to 39Hz (+/-3 dB of "Jeff measurements" (i.e., under-promised and over-delivered)). They are easily moved by one person.

We run ours with Jeff's 3TXs, Yamaha's DSR112s, and RCF's NX45a and TTL6-A. They play nicely with everything. I typically LPF them at around 85Hz.

If you'd like to go passive, Jeff will happily share with you all of the recommended settings for limiting, crossover, etc.. If you decide to go active, the amplifier plate is recessed into the cabinet; it would be really easy to make a "spill deflector" if you're worried about someone spilling liquid on top of the subs. Given how good the active versions work, I wouldn't even consider passive. :-)

Four of the C212Pro are plenty for most "reasonable" outdoor gigs. I've used them in beer tents that measure 120x50 (feet), and have had plenty of headroom. Two will cover most any bar gig.

They really are great subs.


Hi Steve,


Thank you for the revisit, I appreciate the first-hand experience with these cabinets as it helps put confidence behind "blind" purchases when I've never heard it in the wild.  By all accounts my Orbit Shifters impress me and everyone who hears them.  Seeing the smile on a drummers face when I bring the kick drum into the mix at sound check for the first time never gets old.  I'm sure the C212Pro meets everything Jeff says it can do, which checks all of the boxes I'm looking for with regards to performance.  Good to know how great the active ones perform. 


I didn't talk much about them because in my mind they are already a contender and I just wanted to make sure I wasn't too far down the Danley/EV/JTR rabbit hole to see what else existed in the world. 


My main gripes about the C212Pro are about the amp module.  There's very little information on it on the JTR website, so what I've learned has been based on reading up on the specs provided by the amp manufacturer (icepower) and on forums like these ones.  What I see in photos are dials for things like level, delay, HPF etc, which I'd prefer to have control of remotely or set in more "easy to recall" ways then marking out spots on a dial where I like the settings.  To me those things need fine resolution and recallable settings.  Bumping a delay dial by accident would really throw off your alignment.  Are the encoders detented at least? 


Things like the auto-turn on and RCA connections just make me "feel" like it's an amp from JTR's home theatre side of the business adapted to a Pro-styled cabinet, but again I'm just speculating because the lack of information online makes me resort to that.  I've sent Jeff a couple e-mails a few months ago asking questions about what sort of processing is included (are there limiters, HPF's) and whether it was possible to get a locking power cord option on a custom order.  So far none of those e-mails have been returned.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 11, 2019, 12:41:31 pm
Back on topic.  The KW181's do very well for us and our clients,  they are easy to move and pack.  The problem is the next step up is a lot more boxes.

I have had a few chances to run the TH118's,  they are much cleaner, louder and lower than 4 kw181's (two a side).   The problem is you can get a lot done with those four 181's and the next step up you need more than a pair of TH118's.  I am thinking of replacing 12 Meyer 650P-R2's with 8 TH118XL's. 

I wish I could be more help,  I think that the OP is highly focused on specs when the client requirements and his logistics should dictate the purchase.



Thanks for the vote for the KW181 Scott, good to know they are working nicely for you and your team. 
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 11, 2019, 12:57:44 pm
My first rig was a QSC KW setup. Two 112s and two 181s. It was fine and got the job done but I was always running out of gas or just not happy with it. With stair gig I had to lift the subs or find a friends to help. Kind of cumbersome.

I picked up a smaller Danley system used, mostly because of all the buzz around the SM80 and 118  on this forum. The rig was SM60s and TH112s. I loved the sound of this rig. The SM60 while being a tighter pattern than what I needed was incredible. I had dollies made for the subs at Space Case in Sacramento. This got me in and out ok but the covers I got were full body and that made it a pain to use. Going up stairs usually meant dragging them up as the 112 doesn't have wheels.

Still I wanted a little more. Pole mounting was a big deal because of the weddings. A better mount for the top box as well. The stock SM60 pole is a little far back and makes the cabinet front heavy. That made it so you had to put the leg forward on a tripod. I didn't like that so I got the mounting yoke and attached it to a K&m sleeve. This gave me tilt and a balanced speaker. Now however the yoke had to be detached every time and the speakers put back in the covers. Huge time waster.

So I did the buy once cry once and got the SM80/TH118 system. They weren't selling the DNA amps yet but were out of the Danley badged pro lites. So I got a pair of Crest Pro Lite 7.5 and when I was looking at dsp the DNA series came out. So I got the SC48 processor.

I had a steady gig for a little over a year in the same space with this rig and really had the time to listen and analyze it (Smaart). I ended up using the stock preset that Danley has for this rig but ended up removing the +2or3db bump at 2K or so. I liked the sound better without it and it didn't affect the phase trace enough for me to be concerned. This is my personal opinion and I'm not at all saying it's right. The guys that designed this box are way smarter than me. I just made an aesthetic choice.

Stairs with the 118 is not that big a deal. It's like pulling a loaded dolly up the stairs. Just take it slow one step at a time, lift with your knees, etc.
Additional help makes it way easier and I would eat some of the profit on a gig in order to pay help when I need it.

LOU


Hi Lou, thanks again for the information it's incredibly valuable to me.  It's crazy how some well thought out ergonomics can make a 160lb cabinet (TH118) easier to move around than either of the lighter subs you had.  I don't mind paying someone when they are available, I just don't want to heavily invest in something that requires me to find a helper every time.  Where I live the vacancy rate is incredibly low, every industry is starving for workers, and the cost of living is quite high, so local help can be costly if it's good and reliable, or it's good and cheap but you can't bank on them showing up on time.  That's been my limited experience so far anyway.


The yoke for the SM60F seems like the only good option for portable use unless you're flying them, and I've read complaints that it doesn't allow you to downtilt much if you have it on a pole from below.  The SM60F/THmini combo is definitely one of the considered solutions for my B rig, but I was looking closer at cabs like the SM96 or SH95 that might make a good front-fill with my larger rig.  Either way, the sub is the first step.  Thanks again.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 11, 2019, 01:00:57 pm
I am not sure if this is what you are looking for but I know Meyer makes some smaller boxes. Obviously, they are powered.

I used a USW-1 sub for an event a few months ago and was quite pleased for the size (that is about the same weight of what you have now).

I know they make a couple of smaller subs (USW-210 and MM-10)

I am getting a demo from my local rep for the MM-10 in the next few weeks, not quite sure what to expect for such a small box! On paper, they go low enough for you, and they are not very heavy. However limited output and cost may be a barrier. Should be interesting to listen to.

---
While I haven't heard the Y sub, all of the D&B rigs I have mixed on lately have been glorious, so that would be another great option, of the so many which have been given.


D&B and Meyer are certainly well known and would deliver on the "buy once cry once" mantra without exception.  The Y7P/D80/Y-sub solution suggested by Helge looks very attractive on paper but I still need to figure out what that would actually cost me.  If you remember, can you revisit this thread with your thoughts after you get a chance to demo the MM10?  Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 11, 2019, 01:05:20 pm
FWIW, I haven't tried the 12" THs myself. I did a lot of reading around about them, though, as they were a contender when I came to make my current set of subs (15" ported, which don't go as loud as the 12" THs, but are flat to 40Hz).

You'll find that, as the bassist plays lower, the tonality of the instrument will change going down from A to E at the bottom end.
IIRC, A is somewhere in the 50-55Hz region, while E is 41Hz. So you'll get the fundamental of the A note, but only the harmonics of the E. Most bass instruments have stronger harmonics than fundamental, so the difference won't be massive.

I'd expect most members of this forum to notice the difference, but the average punter is unlikely to. Ever looked at the LF response of your average 1x15" bass amp?

I don't think a compact sub is ever going to sound impressive with your eyes closed, but the point of these cabinets is a lot of sound from a small box, and the good ones do that very well.

Chris


Thanks Chris, that gives me some usable metrics to consider with regards to extension.  I know what you mean about the response of a typical bass cab haha.  I've heard some low-end "pro audio" cabs that didn't sound much better which is why I'm trying to be so careful about my selection.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Steve Litscher on January 11, 2019, 02:29:03 pm

My main gripes about the C212Pro are about the amp module.  There's very little information on it on the JTR website, so what I've learned has been based on reading up on the specs provided by the amp manufacturer (icepower) and on forums like these ones.  What I see in photos are dials for things like level, delay, HPF etc, which I'd prefer to have control of remotely or set in more "easy to recall" ways then marking out spots on a dial where I like the settings.  To me those things need fine resolution and recallable settings.  Bumping a delay dial by accident would really throw off your alignment.  Are the encoders detented at least? 


Things like the auto-turn on and RCA connections just make me "feel" like it's an amp from JTR's home theatre side of the business adapted to a Pro-styled cabinet, but again I'm just speculating because the lack of information online makes me resort to that.  I've sent Jeff a couple e-mails a few months ago asking questions about what sort of processing is included (are there limiters, HPF's) and whether it was possible to get a locking power cord option on a custom order.  So far none of those e-mails have been returned.

I hear 'ya on the amps and the "HT" features... I've been over to Jeff's shop a few times, and my requests of him are: locking PowerCon (or IEC) connector, ditch the RCA jacks, and ditch the "auto" switch.

The amps are manufactured by SpeakerPower and use a few ICE components. They are robust in terms of power output and processing capabilities. I've never had an issue with the power amps (unlike RCF - I've had several of their amp modules fail). Unfortunately, Jeff doesn't have the leverage to design different/one-off amps for Pro vs HT... I wish he did.

To be honest - I've used his C212Pro for around 60-ish shows so far (we beta tested for him), and have never once had an IEC cable bump out, nor a setting get changed. We deploy them, validate settings, and do the show. We control delay from our DSP by the board, so we don't rely on the back-of-the-panel controls. And, once it's set for the gig, it's set.

Good luck with the purchase. I could've spent money in any number of places; I'm glad I went C212Pro, C218Pro, and Orbit Shifters. They are outstanding in every regard.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 11, 2019, 04:49:11 pm
Thanks Steve, sounds like you've got a great line of communication with JTR and we're on the same page about some of the knobs etc. 

You've certainly provided first-hand experience to support that they are all they are claimed to be and I think they would be a really good fit for this application.  I knew he was using SpeakerPower previously (circa his old website design) but didn't realize he still was.  From all I've read online, they are no slouch when it comes to LF amplification so that's comforting.  Likely the lack of response from JTR on my inquiry was because it simply wasn't possible and he's tired of hearing those requests, or he put in a request to the amp module manufacturers that was never answered or followed up on.  That or it ended up in his spam e-mail somehow.  Oh well. 

I worked a house gig in a bar for a couple years where the IEC cables on the monitors they owned were really unreliable.  It got to the point that anytime a new artist looked at me and pointed at the monitor, I'd walk up to the stage and plug it back in before even looking at the board because it was ALWAYS falling out and I knew the gain staging and room well enough to know it wasn't the mix or levels they were complaining about.  They were some old DB Audio models, can't remember the exact model but this was years ago. 

Since then I've always been hesitant about anything IEC especially when bass is involved.  I don't mind converting it to PowerCon myself but depending on the build it may or may not be even possible.  On a light-carry gig if I can use the same cable type for power for everything it certainly helps, but it's not a deal breaker.  The fact that yours are holding up just fine indicates that those ones from my memory were just old or cheap.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on January 11, 2019, 10:36:12 pm
They make cool locking IECs that fit standard sockets by grabbing the ground lug.
Like  this  (https://www.amazon.com/CL60360-LOCK-Locking-IEC-Lock-Power-5-15P/dp/B01GVN70EI).
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on January 12, 2019, 05:08:22 am
I use these for locking iec connectors: https://www.amazon.com/Rewireable-IEC320-C13-Accidental-Unplugging-Disconnections/dp/B01DCFVXKK (https://www.amazon.com/Rewireable-IEC320-C13-Accidental-Unplugging-Disconnections/dp/B01DCFVXKK)

They work great for monitors or any other situation where you fear the plug vibrating out. Had it happen to me on shows before, talent complaining of no monitors out of nowhere in the middle of a show. These end that problem.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 12, 2019, 11:28:34 am
Thank you both those are great solutions!
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Matthias McCready on January 15, 2019, 02:34:57 am

 If you remember, can you revisit this thread with your thoughts after you get a chance to demo the MM10?  Thanks for your input.

So I was able to demo the Meyer Sound slim system tonight, which consists of a UP-4SLIM over an MM10 (the part you are interested in).

I feel it is appropriate to review the whole system rather than just the sub, and as this is for a smaller B rig I thought you might be interested :)

As a package it was pretty sleek and sexy it all fit in a large Pelican, setup was super quick and much easier than conventional tripod stands, albeit that convenience and look cost!

To note the Phoenix cable connection (between the sub and the top) leaves a lot be desired. One would think for the price that they would have a nicer connection and cable?

For testing material, I had listening tracks, spoken word, multitrack playback of a recent mix, a live piano player, and a live drummer.

The coverage of the tops was fantastic and they had an amazing amount of output for such a small box. They were very detailed and went louder than I enjoy. They are very well suited for voice, lyrics on all of the songs were extremely intelligible. For voice and mic reproduction they were phenomenal. They put the SRX 7XX tops I had in the room to shame (granted these are very different speakers at different ends of the market, it was an interesting comparison though). 

For the piano, I miced it with an Audix SCX-25 I had on me. The system carried it perfectly and it was acoustically natural, it sounded as good as standing next to the piano! What a delightful system for any sort of acoustic reproduction.

As for the sub, it was quite portable and small (thereby lightweight). It was extraordinarily tight sounding, almost sounded like a sealed sub (although it is not). At the end of the day, it was very small. It is most certainly not the sub to ruffle your jeans. It lacks the bombastic and earth-shattering qualities of a larger sub. In taking a multitrack mix from a room with ample subwoofers, the kick and bass reproduction certainly suffered. It doesn't have the same feel, the "low end" is missing.

For the size of the box it had a lot of output, it did not seem (to my ear, sorry did not pull SMAART out tonight) to go quite as low as advertised, at least with any authority.

For the drummer the kick lost most of the benefit of having a D6, however, it still was a kick. Would I rather have a larger sub for a drummer? Absolutely! However, for a corporate band or small venue, it certainly could work. While it does not go incredibly low, what it does output is tight and sounds quite nice.

The only way I can describe the system is like a nice pair of sealed bookshelf speakers, it sounds very tight. If you directly compared the pair of speakers with and without a sub, you would miss the sub, however, on its own, it goes "low enough" and does so quite pleasantly.

This system would certainly not be suited to EDM, however for most anything else it was respectable enough.

--

For your situation would this work for you? Well that depends, I would be more than comfortable to use this system for talking heads, music playback, or even a small band, however, I do believe it would be missing the low end you desire. As far as the system is concerned it is not a sub to write home about, beyond that it pairs well with the 4P-Slim tops it is probably not worth purchasing for its own merit. I was impressed enough that I may buy one or two of these systems. In the context of a band for an event that the slim system would be appropriate for I would consider adding a USW-1 or two. Those are as heavy as what you are dealing with now, not what you are looking for.

With the downside of having an amp rack, D&B might be more up your alley for what you are looking for. Browsing their website t they have several subs which would meet your weight criteria. I have yet to mix on a D&B rig that I was not friends with.

Hope that is helpful!

Matthias


Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: John Halliburton on January 15, 2019, 09:47:39 am
Ara Ayrassian is who told me, but don't hold either of us to our word without talking to Ara directly ;)

I own TH118's and have demoed the TH-Mini. I love my TH118's. Wasn't able to run the mini full-tilt, they obviously sound good...

A QSC PLD 4.5 in a 1U rack with all processing internal next to your snake and 3x/4x speakon make a small killer passive system.

I've been mildly surprised at how well my pair of TH Mini subs perform. So much so, that I'd actually consider adding another pair for larger gigs instead of my Orbit Shifters.  Another reason is that four little boxes are easier for me to deal with sometimes than two larger ones.

I also have PLD 4.5 amps, but mine need a minimum of 2u spaces. You must have special editions. ;>)

I used SM 80 and SM100 for tops.

A compact high quality pair of rigs.

One other sub to consider is JTR's dual 12" model, the Captivator 212 Pro.  Only 67lbs., and pretty darned impressive.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 15, 2019, 12:55:29 pm
So I was able to demo the Meyer Sound slim system tonight, which consists of a UP-4SLIM over an MM10 (the part you are interested in).


Thanks Matthias that was very informative.  I'm very impressed with how small of a package that all packs in!  For an overflow room or a fill near a bar, delays, mains for spoken word, wedding ceremonies etc, I think this would be great, but I think I'd be worried I'd kill it with a full band unless it was a very small room with well-behaved musicians.  This of course is without having ever heard it just going off the max rated SPL specs and your brief review.

I'm revisiting my needs for my two rigs at this point.  I wanted to offer two price points to my clients so it was somewhat scalable to the size of the event/budget but maybe that just needs to be in the bottom end.  There aren't a lot of gigs I wouldn't want the SM80's I already own (they sound great at low levels) so I'm partially leaning toward a DNA20K4 with some THmini's or THmini15's to have a compact Danley rig for small rooms, bar bands playing in fancier venues than their gear should be, etc.  Then it's really just a matter of hauling out the bigger amp rack/distro and Orbit Shifters for larger events.  Selling the ZXA5's and EAW sub could help bridge the investment gap and make this happen quite soon.

If I could use the tops/subs from my B-rig for front fills, side fills, drum monitors or delays for the larger rig that would help give me more time before outgrowing the SM80's.  For that, I feel like voicing needs to be similar to the SM80 to pull that off in an acceptable manner, and that might be better done from the same brand which is what draws me to boxes like the SH95 or SM96.  If I get rid of the ZXA5's I will need some more tops for coverage on the bigger events, there's no question about that.

Then I see this rig and the D&B Y7/y-sub rig that was discussed earlier and I have to think hard because those are both very classy rigs that no one will discredit and would be a joy to mix on.  I think that's my biggest gripe about my current B-rig, it's not as nice to mix on and isn't light enough to be worth the trade-offs.  Then again, I don't know what these two rigs sell for but I suspect I'm not going to like it, haha.

My cheapest solution seems to be some JTR Captivator 212Pro subs added to my current B-rig which I could run with my SM80's for small rock shows, just means it's not brand matched but the savings could be put towards more small Danley tops (perhaps two more SM80's would be wise) which would give me JTR subs for both rigs and Danley tops for both rigs.  If the lack of brand matching between tops and subs becomes a problem later I can always make the investment in Danley subs but until then at least I'd have a workable solution that can earn me some money and keep me gigging.  That's the latest thought anyway.  Thanks to everyone who has chimed in so far, this has been very helpful for me.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 15, 2019, 01:01:00 pm
I've been mildly surprised at how well my pair of TH Mini subs perform. So much so, that I'd actually consider adding another pair for larger gigs instead of my Orbit Shifters.  Another reason is that four little boxes are easier for me to deal with sometimes than two larger ones.

I also have PLD 4.5 amps, but mine need a minimum of 2u spaces. You must have special editions. ;>)

I used SM 80 and SM100 for tops.

A compact high quality pair of rigs.

One other sub to consider is JTR's dual 12" model, the Captivator 212 Pro.  Only 67lbs., and pretty darned impressive.

Best regards,

John


Thanks John, the THmini's are still on my short list alongside the JTR C212Pro.  Have you used the mini's with your SM80's or just with the SM100's?  When you use your PLD4.5 are you just running one cabinet per channel?  Have you used the SM100's and SM80's at the same gig before?  How well did they complement each other?  Do you find the cabinet shape/ergonomics of the SM100 to be easy to toss on a tripod?  They might be a bit of a weird shape for front fill duties for me but they sure pack up small.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: John Halliburton on January 15, 2019, 02:58:58 pm

Thanks John, the THmini's are still on my short list alongside the JTR C212Pro.  Have you used the mini's with your SM80's or just with the SM100's?  When you use your PLD4.5 are you just running one cabinet per channel?  Have you used the SM100's and SM80's at the same gig before?  How well did they complement each other?  Do you find the cabinet shape/ergonomics of the SM100 to be easy to toss on a tripod?  They might be a bit of a weird shape for front fill duties for me but they sure pack up small.

I've used the TH Minis with both tops.  Even had the SM80/TH Mini outside at a horse racing track grandstand.   I don't expect the Minis to do much past the 50' in front of the stage, but they were audible. 

I've also used the SM80 and SM100 together at a couple of gigs, mainly for the coverage into side rooms off the main room with the stage.  They play together fine.  The sm100 is easier to get up on stands than the sm80.  Lighter and smaller, no beating that.

I do run all my cabinets on single amp channels of a given PLD amp.


Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 15, 2019, 04:18:12 pm
Thanks for the follow-up John.  Appreciate your insight!
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Nathan Riddle on January 16, 2019, 08:57:21 am
I'll ask you what I'm asking everyone else, ever hauled your TH118's up some stairs by yourself and lived to tell the tale?


I don't think a PLD will fit in a 1U rack, but I totally agree.

Yes, not too terrible. Think of hauling a washing machine on a hand truck up stairs.

The only thing the stairs has to have is a flat face, if there is an overhanging lip on them then it will be not fun.

I also have PLD 4.5 amps, but mine need a minimum of 2u spaces. You must have special editions. ;>)

I have magical PLD amps that shrink, they're called Powersoft amps :P haha (not that I actually have Powersoft or PLD amps).
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on January 16, 2019, 11:07:48 am

I have magical PLD amps that shrink, they're called Powersoft amps :P haha (not that I actually have Powersoft or PLD amps).

I'm still not allowed to say very much, but if you're interested in Powersoft amps, this is something to pay attention to - http://www.powersoft-audio.com/en/news/announcements/1975-powersoft-at-the-2019-namm-show

I have a couple of the new amps here and they're very good.

Chris
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 16, 2019, 01:43:36 pm
Hi Chris, I got that e-mail from Powersoft this morning so yes I'm definitely going to keep an eye out for the official announcement and tech specs.  Any info you can share before then?  :)
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 16, 2019, 02:46:47 pm
Yes, not too terrible. Think of hauling a washing machine on a hand truck up stairs.

The only thing the stairs has to have is a flat face, if there is an overhanging lip on them then it will be not fun.



Good point, thanks Nathan!
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on January 16, 2019, 04:05:02 pm
Hi Jeremy, been watching this thread...always hoping for the impossible lol.

You know, I don't see a TH-118 and your OS as that much different handling wise....or at least, they appear to be pretty much the same task getting up stairs.
Sure, the TH-118 weighs less (86% of OS), and is a few inches shorter and less deep.  But there's just not enough diff, eh?

My smaller 'solution?' was this thread https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,163594.0.html
They are 91lbs, and I can get them up stairs.  But it's no fun.  The near cube form of a single 18" is a very awkward lift and carry IMO.
And I misplaced my handles a bit.
That said, I do like them, alot!...I view 2 of them as an OS equiv. They sound super and dig to 30Hz.

The passive JTR212pro's appear to me to be about the best whack at balancing out Hoffman' Law for smaller gigs....it's light and loud, just comes down to whether  50Hz works i guess.

Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 16, 2019, 04:48:04 pm
Hi Jeremy, been watching this thread...always hoping for the impossible lol.

You know, I don't see a TH-118 and your OS as that much different handling wise....or at least, they appear to be pretty much the same task getting up stairs.
Sure, the TH-118 weighs less (86% of OS), and is a few inches shorter and less deep.  But there's just not enough diff, eh?

My smaller 'solution?' was this thread https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,163594.0.html (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,163594.0.html)
They are 91lbs, and I can get them up stairs.  But it's no fun.  The near cube form of a single 18" is a very awkward lift and carry IMO.
And I misplaced my handles a bit.
That said, I do like them, alot!...I view 2 of them as an OS equiv. They sound super and dig to 30Hz.

The passive JTR212pro's appear to me to be about the best whack at balancing out Hoffman' Law for smaller gigs....it's light and loud, just comes down to whether  50Hz works i guess.

Hi Mark,

Great thread, thanks for the read! 

I have been skeptical that the TH118's would help my situation enough to warranty the investment, but spec sheets don't describe ergonomics well so first-hand experience from users seemed like a great place to start.  It was just one of those "well if these DID work, I wouldn't need anything smaller..." ideas I thought was worth exploring.  I just kept hearing from users that the TH118 was a great one-person sub, but clearly that's when you can roll it into place.  I wonder if I'd get any strange looks if I brought my subs to the gym for a workout like those crazy folks who flip tires around for fun, haha.

The JTR C212Pro does seem like a great solution and likely the direction I'll go in a couple months.  Light enough to lift and carry, loud enough for what I need, low enough that I won't miss anything critical, wide enough for a pole cup to make sense when tripods are deemed unsightly, and well-priced.  If I ordered more Orbit Shifters at the same time, I could even save on some freight costs.  Steve's glowing reviews don't hurt, and the comprehensive data at Data-Bass is reassuring enough for me to be confident.

I'm leaning towards powered so that it checks the boxes for "manufacturer presets", drops a couple spaces out of my rack for compact events, and anytime I'd be worried about weather (rain and exposed subs with electronics) I'd be using the Orbit Shifters (outdoors) for my mains, and maybe make use of the C212's for drum fill or side fill when necessary (but they would be protected by the stage roof).  Weather here can turn on a dime, so I treat every outdoor event anticipating a "good chance of showers".

In the meantime, I've tapped out my gear-spending-allocated funds until mid-March... but I will have a lighting thread to update shortly after I get back from Purolator! 
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Roland Clarke on January 17, 2019, 07:38:56 am
I donít have the Danley TH18, but I built my own version of the TH118 which is I believe the same size and has approximately the same weight.  Mine have a cut off angle at the bottom rear and casters on that.  Iíve seen pictures of what are reported to be Danleyís TH18 with and without the back bottom angle (perhaps their have been various iterations of the design), and I would say they are a reasonable 2 man lift, easy push for a single man on the flat or slight slope.  I would say that they are not going to be easy for 1 person going up or down stairs, unless you are a grunt.  That being said, they are easier to shift that single 18Ē sub style cabs just because the grab point is higher up.  I personally get someone additionally to help with stairs and steps, not worth the damage or potential injury to yourself or someone else.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 17, 2019, 07:16:19 pm
Hi Roland, appreciate you sharing your experience with similar subs.

There are touring and install versions of the Danley TH118, so the ones you saw without wheels were the install versions. If you go to their website and find the product page for the TH118, click the "download drawings" link and you get a little more dimensional information on both styles. 

My JTR Orbit Shifters have a similar cut off angle and wheels attached.  I find them fine with one person on smooth ground, it's the stairs that are "tripping me up"; and what drove me to start this thread to make sure I hadn't missed something before committing to one of the options I'd already stumbled on.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Luke Geis on January 17, 2019, 08:35:00 pm
Subs and stairs don't really mix well :) You hit a pretty broad range for selection and I can't think of anything you may have missed that performs as well and is more portable. Going with ported/horn subs is going to give good performance at the cost of weight and size, while good performing bass reflex subs are going to be bulky and awkward as well.

I would look at a 15 horn loaded option. You can shave some weight and the size won't be as large making them a little more portable. The Yamaha DXS sub series is in Mkii now and they have pretty good numbers. The 12" even gets pretty low and loud and is in a rather compact and lightweight package. The 12" horn loaded sub weighs in at around 66lbs. and is less than 24" in any measurement. The 15" weighs in at 80lbs. and is right at 24" in any measurement. For comparison, the JBL SRX 818 weighs 87lbs. and is basically 27" in any measurement direction. The Yamaha DXS 12" says it will do 134db, which I highly doubt, but the SRX says it will do 135db ( which is not likely either ), so they are pretty close. Obviously, we know the Yamaha won't go as low, but if you just need something that gets the point across it will do the trick.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 18, 2019, 06:20:23 pm
Thanks Luke, appreciate your time and thoughts.  I've got a nice collection of options now to consider. 

Somewhere along the way my quest swerved slightly and I have a little bit of business plan examination to do to make sure I'm following the right long-term path, but whatever path I choose I'll be sure to follow up on this thread with an update. 
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 19, 2019, 11:20:08 pm
One of my questions when booking a gig in a new-to-us venue is about access - elevators, steps (even 1 or 2), narrow doors, gravel/grass, etc.  If the client is vague or does not know, I'll make a site visit.  If it's an "event center" or similar space I stop in the office and tell them I'm an event decorator who wants to see their meeting rooms.  They like decorators more than sound guys, whom they assume are really DJs.

The point is if access is difficult I bring a helper and charge the client for that person.  If they don't want to pay it I skip the gig.  It's not worth an injury to myself, my employees or others, or risking damage to the venue or our gear.

Jeremy, I realize you don't want to pass on gigs and I don't like to, either... but make sure paying a premium for smaller/lighter or accepting lesser capability also works with the rest of your business.  Remember that a client that won't pay for a helper is unlikely to pay for premium gear, either.  Capturing a small market that ties up capital may not be worth it in the short/mid term.  If you're currently passing on a Tuesday night gig every week because of stairs, then spend the money.  If this is to fill in the occasional Saturday night, I'd be less inclined to spend much unless there was some kind of expanding demand.

{optional story}
We've done charity fund raising shows in the local Scottish Rite temple.  All the usual gorgeous architectural work and 90 year old drops in the fly gallery... stage on the 2nd floor.  Not an issue for the Rite, as they built almost all the set pieces and props in the building but for the other uses access is an issue.

Only 1 pedestrian elevator goes to all floors and there are limits to cargo size and weight.  It's tremendously slow to unload and load a 26 ft truck this way, plus having to share the elevator with catering and the table & chair folks.  Shows in this venue add about 3 hours of overtime for my crew and I have to recover those hard costs.  Even if it's just me and can move all the stuff by myself, I need paid for the extra time expended due to venue access.
{/optional story}
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 22, 2019, 05:48:47 pm
Tim, thank you for your wisdom.  I wanted to let your post sit with me for more than a day so I fully digested it before responding.  Sometimes the best answer is to the question you didn't ask.

I have no quarrels pretending to be a decorator if it helps me get a successful site visit ahead of preparing my bid, that's a great technique!

My main rig was always the goal, and by all accounts is quite portable and fits my needs well.  I wasn't looking for a magic bullet subwoofer, but if there was something out there for the low-frequencies that aligned with my buying strategy and long-term goals I thought it might be worth the investment.

Between this thread, some offline chats with other LABsters and some self-reflection, I think I'd be better off sticking to that "one good rig" approach and giving my clients the best service I can offer. 

Coming from a volume-sales universe in my day job (designing heating/cooling systems and selling the components to the installing contractors, rinse and repeat), offering tiered pricing of products to my customers after a mechanical system design means that the time designing might not be wasted if they buy one of the options, but if I offer only the most expensive I might not get an opportunity to show them the cheaper options I have and now that time is down the drain. 

In reflection, my personal business is quite different.  The product is the experience, the tools I use shouldn't require tiers based on client budget, but rather my professional opinion to decide what is best for the gig, and then price it based on time/materials.  If they can't afford it, there's no reason I should be storing/maintaining/pricing a whole other sound system that goes out at a lower cost, because that means my other rig isn't rented and the results are less impressive (both of which cost me money). 

To put it this way, if I hire a carpenter to build me a deck, would they price it with their best tools, with a cheaper option if he works with his rusty old tools?  Or a "deck in a day" price versus a "deck in a month" to save him hiring a helper or making trips to the hardware store in his hatchback?  Probably not.  And if he did, he would likely lose credibility with the more professionally geared clients.

I was trying to re-configure my racks this past weekend to suit a gig on Feb 2nd (sold out at 200 people, two live bands, 72'x47' room plus stage with 23' ceilings, and 11 stairs on the load-in/out).  It was a delicate balance between removing enough to make the racks lighter, and not being adequately prepared or having to patch a lot more on site than I'd like.  I'm going to instead hire a grunt helper to get me in with my gear-of-choice and move on. 

Then my new lights arrived and I started doing some tests, and my fiance asked if I'd be using them at this gig.  I replied "no, they only paid for my cheaper lights".  To which she asked "but will these ones look better?  Will your work improve because of bringing them?  Will it cost you money to leave them at home?".  I realized in that moment that I should be putting quality first, and let my reputation grow from there knowing that each time I put my name on a gig that it's another opportunity to make an impression and a lasting relationship.

To go full circle, I'll probably end up selling the ZXA5's and EAW sub, and adding more SM80's and Orbit Shifters to my inventory.  That way I can free up some capital and storage space while also allowing me to scale up for the gigs I'm actually trying to target (small concerts in the park, boutique production for bands playing larger rooms than their own equipment can cover, etc) and if I get myself into another load-in issue I'll price a helper.  I've already invested in myself (training, learning, experience) and premium gear, I'm just short-changing myself by working with my older stuff.

That D&B Y-rig looks sexy but I'm sure it would come at a cost (another year at the dayjob, or more) for what would only be marginally more portability.  These small events are certainly not a growth market for me, and if anything it puts me in direct competition with a larger pool of players that are already doing the highly-mobile somewhat-decent production game.  There's a time and a place for compact rigs, but rock and roll probably isn't one of them.

As for your story, I can completely relate.  Sometimes working by myself is fantastic (no one to blame patching mistakes for though), but all it takes is an injury, a tiny elevator or 30 stairs to ruin my mood.  I try not to let it turn me into a sour grape, but when it comes time to mix the event if I'm feeling my most creative and on top of my game I will give the best results, period.  Instead of spending so much time trying to find the right tool, I should be exploring options locally for the right helper to allow me to do my best work.

As always, thanks to everyone who offered ideas and suggestions.  This community is a fantastic resource and if any of you ever find yourselves in my neck of the woods don't hesitate to reach out so we can connect in person.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 23, 2019, 02:34:41 pm
Don't forget that shop prep has a cost, too.  If you're switching gear around in racks to accommodate one gig, that cost - and the labor to restore the gear back to the original packaging - needs to be attached to that gig, or it becomes an overhead expense.  Either way, you need to compensate yourself for the labor and materials involved.

I used to work in a shop that had lots of gear, most of it "proprietary" which is a nice way to say "home made".  If you're Clair Bros, "home" is a very well staffed and equipped R&D dept, wood shop, metal shop and paint booth but for most of us, home is where the pillows are.  While the gear was pretty decent for the era (very last century) it was a pain to get clients to accept because they'd never heard of it.  Lots of acts have been burned on rigs like those and is where "no Peavey, no Behringer, no Mackie, NO PROPRIETARY ANYTHING" came to be on riders.

That firm had a large amount of money invested in gear that had poor resale value.  The owner was in denial, as his rigs sounded okay and the acts that used them generally had favorable impressions, but "Band you almost have heard of" endorsements don't help much.  One of the reasons I left that firm was because I got tired of defending the gear.  Replace it with more marketable gear?  Uh... well all the money is tied up in stuff, from the gear to the shop space and equipment it takes to build it.

The point of this is that for a system owner at the Lounge level, capital is a finite and precious resource.  It's generally best to spend it on things in demand or that will create more demand.  While it's good to have some tiered pricing (we have a large institutional client that wants such) the costs of keeping those things does not change with demand so it's important that you can recover your costs of acquisition in a timely manner.

Showing off the nice, new lighting is good and it will be an up-sell point for your client on their next gig.  Creating demand.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Rob Spence on January 23, 2019, 06:27:57 pm
I have an inventory of variously sized gear, all of it quality (but not all top tier).
It isnít a set of configured rigs that go out but more a tool box to select from. One size does not fit all. Recently I replaced passive subs with TH118s with plate amps. This eliminated a 70lb amp and made it so I can take any of my subs with no amp racks.

When offered a gig, I evaluate what gear will most appropriately do the gig to the clients satisfaction and then price it. This takes into consideration any pita factor based on the venue (like the need for more crew).

I have a spreadsheet with the inventory and gear price points for dry rentals, cross rentals & part of production.

One section for audio, one for lighting, one for cross rented gear. There is a place for a regular customer discount.

Next is a section on labor. Items for shop, load in/out, run time, wait time and overtime.

Next is transport.

I plug in the values and out comes my price.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on January 23, 2019, 07:34:51 pm
Thanks guys that's great feedback. 

My pricing spreadsheet has all kinds of math behind the scenes to cover all the little pieces that make up the system (mixer needs a snake and UPS, speaker needs a stand and cables, etc).  Then the pricing is based on what I've calculated to be a fair compromise between my ideal ROI timeline (shorter for electronics and flashy things, longer for cables/stands/cabinets) and what the market seems to be willing to bear from the few quotes I've been doing so far.  I have my pricing on my website but as I re-examine my operating expenses and inventory I'm thinking I'll probably take that down.

I've been doing labour as a flat-rate for setup/teardown based on the rig size/PIA factor, then hourly for "tech time" during the event, plus a delivery charge again based on rig size and distance from my "shop" (living room).

Tim you're right that my time re-configuring my rigs needs to be compensated from the beginning or I'll lose my shirt once I get busy.  I need to sit down with a few local providers and find out (if they're willing to share) how they handle the labour side of things once you get beyond the ankle-biter gigs.

Both my mixers (iLive mixracks) are living in in a pair of racks: a larger rack for the 32-preamp one with a distro and big amps; and a smaller rack for the 16-preamp one with smaller amps that ends up being a monitor rack for the bigger gigs.  Both have UPS, POE switches with POE artnet/DMX and WAP's, plus the dante cards in each so I can link them.  For a lounger I'm living in luxury I must say.  That's why it pained me to break down the smaller one into even smaller parts chasing the idea that I could do every gig without help.  Even when I include the "PIA" factor into my pricing for labour, I need to bite the bullet and hire help instead of just suffering through it myself, which would eliminate some of the load-in issues I've been stumbling over and trying to use inventory to solve. 

Tim, I think I've shared this before, but my first job in this industry was for a company that was very "proprietary".   The owner was a fantastic FOH tech and good with woodworking, but I always heard him defending his rig to TM's when trying to secure us work and it was always an uphill battle. I've heard you make the "system" plea to people many times, and I couldn't agree more that leaving the R&D to the manufacturers is the most reliable way to get consistent performance from locally supplied rigs when you're touring.  I plan to target that touring-act business where it falls within my capabilities.

That's what I had in mind when I started this thread, knowing I had a Danley DSP on my buy-list, so something smaller from Danley for a subwoofer seemed to make sense.  Still sort of does if the venue is small enough, but I have to evaluate that need against other needs (and my wedding gets closer every day, haha).  As Tim said, spending money on "things in demand, or that will create more demand" makes sense.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 23, 2019, 11:15:48 pm
I think the future Mrs Young is a smart cookie and needs to be a part of your administrative team.

And remember:  happy wife, happy life.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: brian maddox on January 24, 2019, 08:48:50 pm
I think the future Mrs Young is a smart cookie and needs to be a part of your administrative team.

And remember:  happy wife, happy life.

Yes.  For sure.

Also Yes.   ;D
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Luke Geis on February 07, 2019, 08:53:50 pm
I am on a gig at this very second that I have 4 D&B Y7P's deployed on. While the specs are nice, sound wise they are not exactly what I would call OMG. All in all, for the cost, they are not really punching above their weight. They are a dual 8" speaker that can get impressively loud and sound good but don't sound great. The point being, that money doesn't always get you more.

Let's just say that for the same total investment of the D&B Y7 system for two speakers, you could get 2 Meyer UPJ-1P's and have a killer small lightweight speaker that sounds stellar at $4k per speaker :)   Now obviously this thread is about subs. The thing about subs is that you have to pick a budget first and that will determine what you are going to get. You get to pick two of the three options of loud, cheap, or low-frequency reproduction. If you want loud and low, they won't be cheap etc. etc. For most, the budget sets the pace. If the budget is not of concern, then function obviously precedes.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on February 08, 2019, 12:33:32 pm
Appreciate the feedback on the D&B system Luke.  My stairs gig came and went.  Hauled the rack/mic stand trunk/125lb subwoofer up the stairs with a helper and the rest went smoothly.  My legs sure got a workout by the end of the night. 

I'm strongly considering selling my low-level rig and just investing more in one rig that I can move by myself without stairs and with a helper when there are.  Having two price brackets just seems to be booking me with the "cheaper" system more often than I'd like to work on it, and leaving my good stuff at home not making money.  Not the best use of capital given the marginal transport differences.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Steven Eudaly on February 09, 2019, 01:39:47 pm
I am on a gig at this very second that I have 4 D&B Y7P's deployed on. While the specs are nice, sound wise they are not exactly what I would call OMG....

We own six Y10P and I feel the exact opposite. My favorite box in the shop. Consistently overwhelmed with their performance.

I say this not to swerve the topic, but to point out to Jeremy and others reading along that such opinions are highly subjective and while it is nice to discuss others' experiences to gain additional insight, when making any purchase of such gravity it is very important to demo items for yourself to make sure you're picking the right tool for you.
Title: Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
Post by: Jeremy Young on February 11, 2019, 01:38:32 pm
Thanks Steven.  That's the beautiful part about subjective reviews!  I'd love to audition the gear, but without getting on a plane none of the equipment I'm interested in is immediately available to me.  Still considering a flight to Danley HQ though before dropping too much more cash. 

In related news, I have some gear for sale in the marketplace and am open to offers on all of the listings.