ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Wireless and Communications => Topic started by: Steve Garris on December 31, 2018, 03:15:16 pm

Title: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Steve Garris on December 31, 2018, 03:15:16 pm
I have a guitar player using one of these: https://goo.gl/EeR5Zv

He can't get very far from the stage without it cutting out, especially if the place is crowded. I don't know much about this stuff, but I assume it's due to all of the cell phones and wifi signals in the room.

I mentioned this to him, and he asked about my access point for my iPad remote mixer. It is an APE running dual 2.4 and 5 GHz. He wanted to know if it would cause interference when I place it on stage along with his wireless. I didn't know the answer to this, nor could I explain why my unit doesn't drop out as much as his does (mine is dual 2.4 5 and his is 2.4 only).
Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Don Boomer on December 31, 2018, 04:53:49 pm
Your access point could be causing a problem. But you could switch it over to 5G only and at least eliminate one potential problem.
Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Russell Ault on December 31, 2018, 06:08:15 pm
I have a guitar player using one of these: https://goo.gl/EeR5Zv

He can't get very far from the stage without it cutting out, especially if the place is crowded. I don't know much about this stuff, but I assume it's due to all of the cell phones and wifi signals in the room.

I mentioned this to him, and he asked about my access point for my iPad remote mixer. It is an APE running dual 2.4 and 5 GHz. He wanted to know if it would cause interference when I place it on stage along with his wireless. I didn't know the answer to this, nor could I explain why my unit doesn't drop out as much as his does (mine is dual 2.4 5 and his is 2.4 only).

There may be one (or more) of several things going on here:

The 2.4 GHz band is only 100 MHz vs. almost 600 MHz available in the 5 GHz Wi-Fi range, and those 100 MHz are shared with many different uses (Bluetooth, microwave ovens, amateur radio, wireless audio, etc., etc.) while you're unlikely to run into anything other than Wi-Fi in the 5 GHz Wi-Fi band, and with all that additional space the chances of being able to find a usable 5 GHz Wi-Fi channel are much higher.

Next, dropped Wi-Fi packets tend to be less noticeable than dropped audio packets. Depending on your app and the technology it uses, a dropped package may even end up being automatically retransmitted, producing a delayed but still usable experience, which doesn't work for real-time audio unless you have something that will do negative delay (and if you do, Einstein would like to have a word with you...).

Running your APE in dual-band mode likely isn't helping your guitar player's chances, but even in 5 GHz-only mode it could still cause the guitar player problems if it's located near the guitar receiver, depending partly on the quality (technically the selectivity) of the receiver. Of course both 2.4 and 5 GHz operate best with line-of-sight between transmitter and receiver.

Speaking of quality: as with all things in our industry, not all 2.4 GHz wireless is created equally. Line 6 for example, despite its poor performance as compared to non-ISM-band wireless microphones, goes to astonishing lengths to try and squeeze as much reliability as possible from some seriously congested spectrum, including true frequency diversity (which is expensive to find even in serious pro-level gear). The system you linked to is cheap enough that I'd almost expect reliability issues.

-Russ
Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Pete Erskine on December 31, 2018, 08:21:56 pm
I have a guitar player using one of these: https://goo.gl/EeR5Zv

He can't get very far from the stage without it cutting out, especially if the place is crowded. I don't know much about this stuff, but I assume it's due to all of the cell phones and wifi signals in the room.

I mentioned this to him, and he asked about my access point for my iPad remote mixer. It is an APE running dual 2.4 and 5 GHz. He wanted to know if it would cause interference when I place it on stage along with his wireless. I didn't know the answer to this, nor could I explain why my unit doesn't drop out as much as his does (mine is dual 2.4 5 and his is 2.4 only).

You get what you pay for... an $85 wireless is too cheep.  Be happy if you get 5'.
Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Brian Hancock on December 31, 2018, 09:10:31 pm
You get what you pay for... an $85 wireless is too cheep.  Pe happy if you get 5'.

+1 ... I actually think the spectrum crunch, while it will and has made the lives of professional tours, large shows, corporates more difficult it's also going to highlight how much "stuff" is out there ... as much as they make on prosumer or lower level gear I kinda wish manufacturers would simply say X  is our lowest line this is its cost and we wont make anything else ... get a 50 ft cable ... will sound better and work 50% of the time every time (sound guy controls other 50%)
Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 01, 2019, 02:17:19 am
+1 ... I actually think the spectrum crunch, while it will and has made the lives of professional tours, large shows, corporates more difficult it's also going to highlight how much "stuff" is out there ... as much as they make on prosumer or lower level gear I kinda wish manufacturers would simply say X  is our lowest line this is its cost and we wont make anything else ... get a 50 ft cable ... will sound better and work 50% of the time every time (sound guy controls other 50%)
I have keyboard players that use wireless IEM's.  No matter how much I talk to him he won't change. 

He trusts me to put filters on his patches but not his, hilarious.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 01, 2019, 07:07:04 am
You get what you pay for... an $85 wireless is too cheep.  Pe happy if you get 5'.
Agreed!

The "problem" here is not spending enough money and the solution is ....spend more money ;)
This type of cheap wireless might work OK if the player stays on stage, other wise, get better RF equipment.
Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: John L Nobile on January 02, 2019, 10:58:21 am
You get what you pay for... an $85 wireless is too cheep.  Pe happy if you get 5'.

Most guitar players I know spend a lot of time and money on their "sound". Always made me scratch my head when I see one with a cheap wireless or a cheap cable. Those ones need to stop listening with their knees.

And I have no explanation for the ones that show up with expensive vintage Fender/Gibson guitars and amps and ask you for a cable. ????

Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on January 02, 2019, 11:26:27 am
And singers who only own that one piece of equipment - yet insist on using wireless and refuse to invest in anything more than entry level crap. Then it becomes my job to try and get it to 1) work properly and 2) sound good.
Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Dave Garoutte on January 02, 2019, 01:31:17 pm
I have a guitar player using one of these: https://goo.gl/EeR5Zv

So I clicked on the link to the wireless do-dad and now I'm getting %#$#@^^$ ads for it from Sweetwater!  I hate the internet sometimes. >:(
Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 03, 2019, 04:30:16 pm
So I clicked on the link to the wireless do-dad and now I'm getting %#$#@^^$ ads for it from Sweetwater!  I hate the internet sometimes. >:(

Add Ghostery to your browser, and NoScript. The advertising stalkers are held at bay.
Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Mike Caldwell on January 03, 2019, 05:08:39 pm
Most guitar players I know spend a lot of time and money on their "sound". Always made me scratch my head when I see one with a cheap wireless or a cheap cable. Those ones need to stop listening with their knees.

And I have no explanation for the ones that show up with expensive vintage Fender/Gibson guitars and amps and ask you for a cable. ????

Had a bass player one time with at least a $3000 Modulus bass with an upper end Mark Bass rig all the while using a Shure PGX wireless guitar system.
Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: scottstephens on January 04, 2019, 10:53:03 am
Had a bass player one time with at least a $3000 Modulus bass with an upper end Mark Bass rig all the while using a Shure PGX wireless guitar system.

Well, DUH!!! Of course you did. guitars, basses, whatever. Even when they bring their own wired mic it is usually some sort of $49 "special".

Scott
Title: Re: Question about 2.4 GHz
Post by: Mike Caldwell on January 04, 2019, 03:36:33 pm
Well, DUH!!! Of course you did. guitars, basses, whatever. Even when they bring their own wired mic it is usually some sort of $49 "special".

Scott

The real kicker is then when they complain about their wireless cutting out, fizzing, spitting, ect.

Some time ago I had a guy that did historical presentations that carried his own wireless system with a Countryman mic, can't remember what the crap wireless system was. He also had a person who was a prompter using a walkie talkie to read lines to him that he listened to with an ear bud.
Sound check was quick but went well enough however when the presentation started we realized he had a prompter reading some lines to him guess what walked all over the top of his wireless!!!

The prompter was no where around or even known about during  soundcheck, his system what ever it was was fixed frequency, he would not use my wireless system and to top it off afterwards they said they had been getting interference on their mic lately!!!!
The prompter was no where near the receiver, funny thing was you could make out enough of the prompters voice to know what was coming up next.

I'm going to say all these years later he is still using the same wireless system, same walkie talkies and still hasn't gotten a replacement EQ cap and windscreen on his Countryman mic.