ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: frank kayser on October 20, 2018, 12:31:36 pm

Title: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: frank kayser on October 20, 2018, 12:31:36 pm
Cables and foot-traffic is a accident and lawsuit waiting to happen.  I know everyone has faced it.  I have survived, without incident, so far.


I tape down cables where I can, and outdoors, run the cables in sidewalk joints where possible to lower the profile.  So far so good.


Upcoming tree lighting job.  At the most, I'm dealing with maybe an 8x4 snake and power cable running from a wall to a centrally positioned Christmas tree, with people, shoulder to shoulder, 360 degrees around the tree.  Run is about 10-15' over concrete sidewalk.  Using black gaff tape last year went without incident, but my situational awareness was just under the surface until the crowd dispersed.  A distraction. (Whew!)


Mind you, the electric for the tree runs under tape from a similar location.  It's thinner, though.


So that leads to the question: Can I do better?


Maybe cable-tunnel tape?
https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Yellow-Hazard-Striped-Tunnel/dp/B00BSXA59Y?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-osx-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00BSXA59Y


Would cable ramps be an improvement?  Something like:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BC7XZPQ/?coliid=IPXG9QWOIKK7L&colid=19WQTBGRADDFO&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


Yes, they'd be more visible - yellow on black.  They'd also present a higher obstacle.  Of course, these have the non-ADA ramps...


Another option would be carpet over the cables...  With lay-flat edges, and/or taped edges...


When running cables on the ground, nothing will completely eliminate trip-and-fall hazard, and liability.


Your opinion on which of the above would minimize the problems for the patrons AND ME the best would be appreciated.


A final option would be to run a Honda EU2000 on the "blind side"  of the tree and place rack mixer, lights and cables out of the walkway altogether. This option, is only possible if permission is given.
-----------------------------------
And another off-topic note: Artificial snow from snow machines falling on the surface of an iPad wreaks havoc on iPad control - not dissimilar to drops of sweat in the summer. 


many thanks
frank



Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Mal Brown on October 20, 2018, 12:45:14 pm
I have 20 Pyle ramps I use them a lot.  Similar to the ramps you linked to on amazon.  Does not preclude liability coverage in my mind...  just a due diligence step
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Bob Stone on October 20, 2018, 12:54:17 pm
Cable ramps and make sure your liability insurance is up to date...only so much you can do.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: frank kayser on October 20, 2018, 01:15:01 pm
I have 20 Pyle ramps I use them a lot.  Similar to the ramps you linked to on amazon.  Does not preclude liability coverage in my mind...  just a due diligence step


I guess you like the Pyle.  Recommended?  They all look to be made by the same firm, then branded and sold.


Cable ramps and make sure your liability insurance is up to date...only so much you can do.


Yes. You are both right. Up-to-date liability ins, and due diligence.  Due diligence includes seeking out best presentative practices.   


frank
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Roland Clarke on October 21, 2018, 05:38:21 am
I would agree with the above.  Had an incident about 8 years ago where a drunk women tried to make a claim against a contractor I employed after she tripped over cable track.  As the track was specifically designed and the contractor had the relevant insurance her case was thrown out.  In the U.K. my understanding of the law is that as long as you obviously have taken every reasonable precaution the onus is on the public to take their own reasonable care.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Gordon Brinton on October 21, 2018, 07:10:00 am
...In the U.K. my understanding of the law is that as long as you obviously have taken every reasonable precaution the onus is on the public to take their own reasonable care.

In the US, it's the other way around. Reasonable precaution has little to do with it. Whomever has the more powerful lawyer usually wins.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Jeff Lelko on October 21, 2018, 08:45:21 am
I guess you like the Pyle.  Recommended?  They all look to be made by the same firm, then branded and sold.

On a scale of 1-10...5.  I have some Pyle ramps too and they're not up to par when compared to the higher-dollar ramps.  My biggest gripe is that the tabs used to connect multiple pieces aren't dovetailed...so one kick and it comes apart.  This isn't a big deal when crossing a simple sidewalk (which can be done with one or two segments), but for longer runs across grass you'll drive yourself crazy trying to keep it all together.  At the same time, I believe they're still the cheapest option for "real" cable ramps, and I wouldn't use anything less.  Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: scottstephens on October 21, 2018, 12:17:51 pm
Frank,

I've done a lot of tree lightings, probably 15 or 16. I know every area and situation is different, but I have found that heavy duty rubber-backed rugs work the best in situations like tree lightings.  They lay lower thereby providing less of a trip hazard and are heavy enough that they don't move. If it rains or if you have wet snow they really don't move, but become heavier than crap.

The biggest obstacle I've had to deal with at those things is power. I always have the city electric company test the "weather-proof" outlets and then test them myself later but before the event. I usually end up using 1 amp and daisy chaining several speakers  just because of the cable hazard/power thing.

Also, if it is really cold, have warm, fresh batteries. And have an extra wireless on stand by. Have a helper if you are going to have groups sing, especially kids and place the mics after they get into position and move them as soon as they are done. Talk to all the people involved including the local police to ask about parking, loading, unloading because a lot of times these things involve  streets being closed and all the happy horse crap that comes up with these things.

Good Luck.

Scott
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Rick Powell on October 21, 2018, 10:48:43 pm
We use 2-channel cable ramps similar to your link. They do have a strong rubber smell when new, might want to let them "aerate" outdoors for a week or 2 before storing them anywhere indoors where the odor might be a problem. The other thing they do is protect CAT cable, etc. from vehicles that might run over them...before we acquired these, we were at an outdoor fest where they provided a makeshift wooden cable ramp to run our cables. Needless to say, they weren't designed very well and when a semi truck ran over them, our CAT cable from mixer to stage box started to crackle intermittently and we had to replace it. Never had a problem one we acquired and used the rubber cable ramps, and provide more positive protection than a rug or rubber mat.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Mike Monte on October 22, 2018, 08:15:44 am
Cables and foot-traffic is a accident and lawsuit waiting to happen.  I know everyone has faced it.  I have survived, without incident, so far.


I tape down cables where I can, and outdoors, run the cables in sidewalk joints where possible to lower the profile.  So far so good.


Upcoming tree lighting job.  At the most, I'm dealing with maybe an 8x4 snake and power cable running from a wall to a centrally positioned Christmas tree, with people, shoulder to shoulder, 360 degrees around the tree.  Run is about 10-15' over concrete sidewalk.  Using black gaff tape last year went without incident, but my situational awareness was just under the surface until the crowd dispersed.  A distraction. (Whew!)


Mind you, the electric for the tree runs under tape from a similar location.  It's thinner, though.


So that leads to the question: Can I do better?


Maybe cable-tunnel tape?
https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Yellow-Hazard-Striped-Tunnel/dp/B00BSXA59Y?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-osx-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00BSXA59Y


Would cable ramps be an improvement?  Something like:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BC7XZPQ/?coliid=IPXG9QWOIKK7L&colid=19WQTBGRADDFO&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


Yes, they'd be more visible - yellow on black.  They'd also present a higher obstacle.  Of course, these have the non-ADA ramps...


Another option would be carpet over the cables...  With lay-flat edges, and/or taped edges...


When running cables on the ground, nothing will completely eliminate trip-and-fall hazard, and liability.


Your opinion on which of the above would minimize the problems for the patrons AND ME the best would be appreciated.


A final option would be to run a Honda EU2000 on the "blind side"  of the tree and place rack mixer, lights and cables out of the walkway altogether. This option, is only possible if permission is given.
-----------------------------------
And another off-topic note: Artificial snow from snow machines falling on the surface of an iPad wreaks havoc on iPad control - not dissimilar to drops of sweat in the summer. 


many thanks
frank

Using a generator is the best way to go in limiting your liability.
I assume that your event is outdoors so a genny would not be a problem.
(I have never had a client balk at the idea of me using a generator instead of wires all over.)
Just explain your rationale to the people in charge.  You should not have a problem....as long as it doesn't rain..

I will always assume that if I had one foot of exposed cable on a football field, some 80 YO lady will find it and stumble on it...

Why stress yourself over it??

My local Home Depot rents Honda 2000 generators at $50.00 per 24 hour period.  Totally worth it for peace-of-mind.



Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Taylor Hall on October 22, 2018, 10:26:51 am
On a scale of 1-10...5.  I have some Pyle ramps too and they're not up to par when compared to the higher-dollar ramps.  My biggest gripe is that the tabs used to connect multiple pieces aren't dovetailed...so one kick and it comes apart.  This isn't a big deal when crossing a simple sidewalk (which can be done with one or two segments), but for longer runs across grass you'll drive yourself crazy trying to keep it all together.  At the same time, I believe they're still the cheapest option for "real" cable ramps, and I wouldn't use anything less.  Hope this helps!
That's about my exact sentiments for these as well. We only use them as covers in areas that we know will be infrequently traveled (or only by our techs) or where an after the fact scenario comes up where we have to adapt on the fly to a client request or other unforeseen circumstance. There's not much you can do about keeping them together over uneven terrain apart from taping the joints, but we found that heating the piss out of them to remove all warping went a long way along with heating the joints while they were connected to one another, it made them fit together better and not want to pop loose as easily. I guess the molds have long since been out of spec, but not enough to warrant reproducing them...
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Mal Brown on October 22, 2018, 10:27:42 am

I guess you like the Pyle.  Recommended?  They all look to be made by the same firm, then branded and sold.



Yes. You are both right. Up-to-date liability ins, and due diligence.  Due diligence includes seeking out best presentative practices.   


frank

like is too strong a word...   They are a complete but necessary evil.   Heavy, smelly to start - plan on an extended air out.  Subject to the complaints above.  Still, Iíll add another 40í during the off season.  The checkmate locking stuff is just way too expensive at my level.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Riley Casey on October 22, 2018, 10:54:41 am
Rent some cable ramps. You really aren't making enough on this gig to defend the lawsuit you may incur.  Even your own insurance vendor will bail on you if they can find that you didn't follow industry standard practices for safety.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Rob Spence on October 22, 2018, 11:44:41 am
To the OP
Could you elaborate on the physical arrangement . What gear is near tree? What cables need to cross audience area?

A generator for near tree and a wireless link for getting audio to the tree area if needed?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Doug Johnson on October 22, 2018, 04:36:52 pm
I have about 75 feet of cable ramps similar to what you link to an they have worked well for me.  They have come in especially handy for that one cord across the street that is suppose to be closed to vehicles.  I don't think they would hold up to heavy traffic.  I did leave them out for about a month to gas off after I got them.  I also had an issue with the wire that is used for the hinge falling out. I filled the end of the holes with epoxy.  For your gig, I would probibly use heavy rubber backed carpet.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Stephen Kirby on October 22, 2018, 05:45:31 pm
I also have some of the Pyle ramps.  Obviously not the full standard thing but I also look at it as due diligence for my level.  And more legit than laying carpet runners over the cables.

Previously I had built some wooden ones which had much steeper angles, someone in a wheelchair would have definitely had a problem.  Then I was doing a municipal music in the park thing and some kid was driving his RC car over it at speed, launching it into the air.  I was really concerned that he was going to hit someone and I would be blamed for providing the launch ramp. 
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: frank kayser on October 22, 2018, 06:03:10 pm
To the OP
Could you elaborate on the physical arrangement . What gear is near tree? What cables need to cross audience area?

A generator for near tree and a wireless link for getting audio to the tree area if needed?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Hi Rob,


Small oddly shaped area in front of a new development, specifically there a restaurant entrance most nearby.


The area is maybe 50x50' narrowing to a sidewalk wrapping around the building. There is a very small "green space" between the site and the street.


Tree is set maybe 10' from that green space.  Around the tree - call that narrow spot facing the green space/street, 0 degrees.  Nothing there.  90 degrees clockwise is where the performers will be.  Some lights on the talent, and some blinders facing that direction,
Another 90 degrees (now 180) is the restaurant door and wall.  Last year, I set up along this wall.  There is maybe 30' between the tree base to the wall - this is a major walking thoroughfare. Last year, it was through this area that I ran power and an 8x4 snake. Power for the lights and speakers, snake - well what snakes do.
At 270 degrees, essentially the back of the tree.  Still a fair amount of folks -still along the wall not quite 270 degrees is the warming station with beverages, and a bit farther down, the radio station booth.
As I remember, I had to run a pretty long power cable to the table where the mixer sat, and then to the tree. My power paralleled the cord for the tree lights.  Theirs was light gauge cord, taped down - no chance os sharing.


If I move the mixer to the tree stand at 315 degrees, then it is strictly power.  A genny there would eliminate all cables in the foot paths.


Then all that's left is lights.  Blinders can come from between the tree and the acts, and there could be one stand in the green space to light the performers faces from stage left.



Rent some cable ramps. You really aren't making enough on this gig to defend the lawsuit you may incur.  Even your own insurance vendor will bail on you if they can find that you didn't follow industry standard practices for safety.


Thanks, Riley.  I had not considered that the ins vendor could bail.  Serious food for thought.


Using a generator is the best way to go in limiting your liability.
I assume that your event is outdoors so a genny would not be a problem.
(I have never had a client balk at the idea of me using a generator instead of wires all over.)
Just explain your rationale to the people in charge.  You should not have a problem....as long as it doesn't rain..

I will always assume that if I had one foot of exposed cable on a football field, some 80 YO lady will find it and stumble on it...

Why stress yourself over it??

My local Home Depot rents Honda 2000 generators at $50.00 per 24 hour period.  Totally worth it for peace-of-mind.

I need to make sure client will accept that as a solution.


Frank,

I've done a lot of tree lightings, probably 15 or 16. I know every area and situation is different, but I have found that heavy duty rubber-backed rugs work the best in situations like tree lightings.  They lay lower thereby providing less of a trip hazard and are heavy enough that they don't move. If it rains or if you have wet snow they really don't move, but become heavier than crap.

The biggest obstacle I've had to deal with at those things is power. I always have the city electric company test the "weather-proof" outlets and then test them myself later but before the event. I usually end up using 1 amp and daisy chaining several speakers  just because of the cable hazard/power thing.

Also, if it is really cold, have warm, fresh batteries. And have an extra wireless on stand by. Have a helper if you are going to have groups sing, especially kids and place the mics after they get into position and move them as soon as they are done. Talk to all the people involved including the local police to ask about parking, loading, unloading because a lot of times these things involve  streets being closed and all the happy horse crap that comes up with these things.

Good Luck.

Scott


I've seen carpets over cables in more paces than I care to count, including every carnival for their heavy power runs.  IMO, that provides the lowest profile for folks to walk over.  To Riley's point, good enough, and standard enough?  I advance the site, and test the power.  Last year, I thought I was golden during advance, only to find the tree and snow making machine, and me vying for the same outlet.  The snowmaker was rated at 20a.  Another reason for the genny.


And thanks for all the feedback on the Pyle (and other) ramps.  I heard they need quite a bit of "seasoning" outside. (as in Spring Summer Fall and Winter).  I had looked at pictures of them and I thought I was missing something not seeing any locking mechanism on the tabs. 


thanks guys!


frank
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Aaron Maurer on December 24, 2018, 03:22:50 pm
https://unimattraffic-us.com/2-channel-industrial-cable-protector.html

What is the thoughts on this cable ramp?  Seems like they have a much more robust way of connecting them together. With shipping they are $50 a piece. 
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on December 24, 2018, 06:16:48 pm
https://unimattraffic-us.com/2-channel-industrial-cable-protector.html

What is the thoughts on this cable ramp?  Seems like they have a much more robust way of connecting them together. With shipping they are $50 a piece.

People will trip on them.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on December 24, 2018, 06:24:27 pm
I have a few that look similar  - different supplier on eBay - but same connecting lugs and I like the way they lock in.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Brian Jojade on December 25, 2018, 11:34:38 pm
FWIW, the devices linked are all listed as 'Cable protectors' not trip hazard reduction.  Their primary purpose is to protect the cable.  They create a higher profile and thus create more of a trip hazard than other solutions.

Placing a simple rubber runner over your cables is less of a tripping hazard, although does not protect your cables as well.  In this type of situation, that's probably what I'd use.  Much easier to deploy, stays in place, and usually offers enough protection for normal foot traffic.

Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Lyle Williams on December 26, 2018, 02:55:01 am
FWIW, the devices linked are all listed as 'Cable protectors' not trip hazard reduction.  Their primary purpose is to protect the cable.  They create a higher profile and thus create more of a trip hazard than other solutions.

Placing a simple rubber runner over your cables is less of a tripping hazard, although does not protect your cables as well.  In this type of situation, that's probably what I'd use.  Much easier to deploy, stays in place, and usually offers enough protection for normal foot traffic.

+1

People are far more likely to trip on cable ramps than cables.  Big rubber mats are good.  Also, if you make a hazard you need to mark it with traffic cones or something.  It is having marked the hazard clearly that will reduce accidents and show that your priority was safety.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Aaron Maurer on December 26, 2018, 08:31:09 am
Trying to protect Cat5 cable and eliminate trip hazards. Anyone with experience with this drop over cable ramp?  Some events are in the grass and surfaces  can be uneven. Not sure mats are an acceptable method plus itís not going to provide the protection of the Cat5 I am seeking.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pack-Extra-Wide-High-Traffic-Pedestrian-Cable-Cover-Wire-Protector-Ramp-/292840605614

Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on December 26, 2018, 10:34:43 am
To the OP, I assume that this tree lighting has come and gone. So how did you deal with it and how did it go? I did one tree lighting this year and we put the mixer side stage and I mixed with a combination of at the mixer and in among the people with a tablet. I hate mixing on a tablet it is too slow for me. I had a glove on my right hand with the fingers cut off towards the tips. And my hands were still freezing. The musicians were having a hard time playing with freezing hands. I was wondering if some of those hand warming things would have helped stuffed into the gloves, but I think they have a warning on them to not put directly on flesh. At all of the tree lightings I have done over the years, the tree isnít where the stage is. The tree is off to one side or in this place the tree was behind the audience and they turn around for the lighting. 

My basic cabling thoughts and experiences.

I freelance for a company that does a series of outdoor concerts in the summertime here. The run from the stage to the FOH is across the grass except for a concrete path from left to right that is about 9feet wide. The cables in the grass seem to sink in just enough that it doesnít seem to be a trip problem. This is in the summertime when the grass and the ground isnít freezing and hard as a rock.  For the concrete path we use Bumblebee cable protectors (with 5 channels) which are the lighter weight cable protectors from Yellow Jacket. I have never seen someone trip on the cable path in the grass, we carefully lay all of the cables (usually 4) flat and straight and all next to each other.

I have seen people tip and fall on the cable protectors. The 2 issues seem to be alcohol and darkness. Everyone that has tripped seems to be slightly under the influence. Over the years the ambient lighting at this location has changed. By the end of the show the lights just donít seem to light this area (the Path) as much anymore. I bought some LED rope lights and string them in the ramps and plug this in when it gets dark. The LEDs make the yellow plastic of the ramps glow. This seems to have helped a lot.

Since we have all of the snakes we need (and more) to do this kind of thing it never seemed to make sense to buy a digital stage box and have to deal with the issues of Cat5 cabling. And to go fiber, which I would consider, really adds to the cost.

When running cabling indoors I do everything I can to keep it off of the ground. If there is food being served you canít have any cabling on the ground (floor) no matter what cable covering you do. If they are wheeling in food carts they will have a problem getting over the cables. And the servers carrying food will trip. A lot of venues that one would need to keep the cabling off of the floor, usually have ways to put the cabling over doorways and running all cabling along the walls. Some even have cable troths under the floor, with a pull line in it. Sometimes this means compromising a little bit on the ideal mix position but not usually too bad. 

I do an event in a fieldhouse (big open room that is an acoustical nightmare) and in there we hang not only the speakers but all of the cabling to the FOH position. If you have enough cable length there are usually ways to get from point A to point B without having to run the cable on the floor where people will be walking. Sometimes you may need to move point A and or point B a bit to make this happen. And in a bunch of cases we use wireless to make things happen without cable hazards.   
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: boburtz on December 27, 2018, 12:36:21 pm
Trying to protect Cat5 cable and eliminate trip hazards. Anyone with experience with this drop over cable ramp?  Some events are in the grass and surfaces  can be uneven. Not sure mats are an acceptable method plus itís not going to provide the protection of the Cat5 I am seeking.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pack-Extra-Wide-High-Traffic-Pedestrian-Cable-Cover-Wire-Protector-Ramp-/292840605614
We use the "Checkers" brand equivalent to these. It's called a "fastlane" and works very well for some things. They are lower profile than the hinged lid, trough style so a little less of a trip hazard, but they are still a trip hazard. I purchased one of the units you linked as a test to see if it would mate with our existing inventory of Checkers, as they are a lot cheaper. They don't. They are also a stiffer rubber that tends to warp and won't lie as flat. The Checkers are great for ballroom doorways (gaff tape saver) and sidewalks. I wouldn't run your snake through it and let a car drive over it, though. They will squish under the weight and your snake will bear the load.

Also, if you have thick cables (~1" or so) and they are bundled with other cables, you have to make sure the cables are not wrapped around each other, otherwise the ramp won't lie flat, and will roll with the cable. That is more dangerous than just taping a cable down.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: boburtz on December 27, 2018, 12:40:31 pm


 I bought some LED rope lights and string them in the ramps and plug this in when it gets dark. The LEDs make the yellow plastic of the ramps glow. This seems to have helped a lot.

THAT is a GREAT idea. I wonder if it works with other brands / styles, or just the bumble bees...
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: James Brooks on December 28, 2018, 11:27:10 am
All great ideas, but there are only two people who can really answer that question.
Your lawyer and your liability insurance co.
They will be the first people to call if some one trips.
There opinion matters.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Dave Pluke on December 29, 2018, 12:14:06 pm
Their primary purpose is to protect the cable.

Two related observations:

1)  We just took possession of some similar ramps and noticed the hinge dowels are prone to sliding out.  We may bow them a bit to encourage them to stay in place.

2)  Two weekends ago, I used some ramps to protect as many cables as I could as they crossed the backstage access path.  I watched several people gingerly step OVER the cable ramps - and, subsequently, onto some remaining cables, as they passed.  So, I guess they can also act as a deterrent?

Dave
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on December 29, 2018, 12:28:19 pm
Two related observations:

1)  We just took possession of some similar ramps and noticed the hinge dowels are prone to sliding out.  We may bow them a bit to encourage them to stay in place.

Dave

Dave, I noticed this too and I used small zip ties attached to the dowels in the gaps so they don't move around.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Dave Pluke on December 29, 2018, 12:35:44 pm
Dave, I noticed this too and I used small zip ties attached to the dowels in the gaps so they don't move around.

Ah, good idea! Thanks, Debbie!

Dave
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 29, 2018, 01:42:29 pm
Dave, I noticed this too and I used small zip ties attached to the dowels in the gaps so they don't move around.

We injected silicone sealant into the end holes.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: frank kayser on January 14, 2019, 11:07:23 pm
A second attempt at a follow-up.
After talking it over with my employer, we decided cable ramps would be more of a hazard than help.


I came equipped with carpet, gaff tape, and black/yellow tunnel tape.  I ran all cross traffic cables (power/snake/DMX) in rather wide and deep expansion joints in the concrete.  With those tucked down flush to the surface of the sidewalk, I put the tunnel tape over that for visibility, and further tacked down those edges with gaff.  Seems the adhesive on the tunnel tape was not especially tacky in the 28 degree F cold.  No carpet was needed.


Power/DMX was extended past the performance area on the concrete (no stage) over to the rose bed and then to the stage left light stand.  Similarly, power/DMX was run along the restaurant wall to the stage-left light stand.  Light stands were approximately 20' out from the performance area, with the tree directly behind.


My installation looked much better (and flatter) than the power run to the tree, if I do say so myself.  The mains and monitors were powered, and the siamesed cables ran on the surface around stage left to the snake.  Mic cables were similarly routed.


There were no incidents, and I felt very confident with the safety of the setup.  Client was happy with the setup - though in hindsight, the unused carpet, and the empty covers and cases should have been stowed in the van, not by the equipment table.  The appearance was not horrible, but could have been much cleaner by the table.


Thanks for all the input, folks. 
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Mike Monte on January 15, 2019, 10:23:52 am
  Client was happy with the setup - though in hindsight, the unused carpet, and the empty covers and cases should have been stowed in the van, not by the equipment table.  The appearance was not horrible, but could have been much cleaner by the table.

Thanks for all the input, folks.

Sometimes storing cases/covers by the equipment table "just happens"....as one is going about setting up / spiking cables, etc.  You try to get things done early and then people show up early - and get in the way, thus slowing you down.  This happens more often than not. 
I've used a black table skirt/apron and stored all cases under the FOH table...
A case in point to always have black cases/covers/cables/..... 
When I was building my rigs and while doing so, purchasing racks, there always seemed to be a "special" on blue or red pre-made racks.  I am glad that I didn't bite back then...

Congrats on a successful gig.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on January 15, 2019, 03:34:35 pm
When running cabling indoors I do everything I can to keep it off of the ground. If there is food being served you canít have any cabling on the ground (floor) no matter what cable covering you do. If they are wheeling in food carts they will have a problem getting over the cables. And the servers carrying food will trip. A lot of venues that one would need to keep the cabling off of the floor, usually have ways to put the cabling over doorways and running all cabling along the walls. Some even have cable troths under the floor, with a pull line in it. Sometimes this means compromising a little bit on the ideal mix position but not usually too bad.

I'm finding that an increasing number of venues are resistant to gaff tape on the floor. Modern "low VOC" floor finishes do NOT hold up to gaff tape (even if removed after a couple of hours), unlike the older solvent-based varnishes and polyurethanes. It's gotten to the point that I won't even use it on a hard floor anymore.

The latex adhesive used in gaff tape generally won't chemically interact with solvent/oil based finishes, but it appears to chemically bond with the acrylic/latex based finishes that are popular now. The bond between the tape and the finish becomes stronger than the bond between the finish and the floor, in only a few minutes' contact time. When you go to remove the tape, it brings the finish up with it. I guess that's one unintended consequence of "going green."

To go over doorways, I've crafted some magnetic cable hooks (using high-strength magnets salvaged from hard drives). They seem to work fairly well; most commercial facilities have steel door jambs and casing (for interior doors and some exterior doors) that the magnets have no problem holding on to. Obviously, that doesn't work with aluminum frame jambs like you see on storefronts.
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: frank kayser on January 15, 2019, 06:18:36 pm
Sometimes storing cases/covers by the equipment table "just happens"....as one is going about setting up / spiking cables, etc.  You try to get things done early and then people show up early - and get in the way, thus slowing you down.  This happens more often than not. 
I've used a black table skirt/apron and stored all cases under the FOH table...
A case in point to always have black cases/covers/cables/..... 
When I was building my rigs and while doing so, purchasing racks, there always seemed to be a "special" on blue or red pre-made racks.  I am glad that I didn't bite back then...

Congrats on a successful gig.


Sounds like you're singing my song... No matter how early, never early enough.
With a rackmount mixer and small DMX controller, I use a 4x2.5 table - not much room underneath.  I also paid extra for brown covers... maybe not the best idea...
Title: Re: Cables through the crowd area
Post by: frank kayser on January 15, 2019, 06:21:42 pm
I'm finding that an increasing number of venues are resistant to gaff tape on the floor. Modern "low VOC" floor finishes do NOT hold up to gaff tape (even if removed after a couple of hours), unlike the older solvent-based varnishes and polyurethanes. It's gotten to the point that I won't even use it on a hard floor anymore.

The latex adhesive used in gaff tape generally won't chemically interact with solvent/oil based finishes, but it appears to chemically bond with the acrylic/latex based finishes that are popular now. The bond between the tape and the finish becomes stronger than the bond between the finish and the floor, in only a few minutes' contact time. When you go to remove the tape, it brings the finish up with it. I guess that's one unintended consequence of "going green."

To go over doorways, I've crafted some magnetic cable hooks (using high-strength magnets salvaged from hard drives). They seem to work fairly well; most commercial facilities have steel door jambs and casing (for interior doors and some exterior doors) that the magnets have no problem holding on to. Obviously, that doesn't work with aluminum frame jambs like you see on storefronts.


Great warning about the gaff tape on floors.  Test in an inconspicuous area - or find another alternative.


I like your over doorways methods.  I'll steal that soon, imitation being the most sincere form of flattery!


frank