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Title: HDMI over IP with low latency?
Post by: Sean Schult on September 21, 2018, 02:49:57 pm
As above. Looking to do a matrix switch (~12 in, ~20 out) by VLAN tagging HDMI over IP. The hangup is that this will be used for gaming, so latency is an issue. Looking <50ms ideally but not more than 100ms for sure or the games will be unplayable. There's tons of Chinese brand devices on Amazon but most of them do not spec a latency and based on the information I can find, it'd be around 150ms for the better ones and around 500ms for the worse ones. But they don't seem to be very consistent, even within the same manufacturer. Goes with the territory I guess. At least they're affordable though, less than $100 per unit. I've also found the Just-Add-Power brand which seems to be exactly what I'm looking for but I fear they will be much more expensive. Needing ~32 units will add up quickly to an impossible number. Nobody publishes prices for them despite rave reviews everywhere. Don't understand why they don't publish at least the MSRP and let us infer what the street price might be.

Anybody know how much the JAP units cost? Any dealers here willing to PM me an idea what I'm in for? Or anyone have experience with a different model that does what I need? Today's needs are 1080p60 but would be nice to future-proof with 4K support if possible. Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: HDMI over IP with low latency?
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 21, 2018, 04:33:25 pm
HDBaseT may be your saving grace here, it's a fairly new standard but works quite well with incredibly low latency (pretty sure it's in the microsecond rather than millisecond) in pretty much any resolution up to 4k (though I think the framerate takes a bit of a hit).

Most matrices will come with the HDBaseT baluns, though I don't know of one off-hand that will support the arrangement of I/O that you want, the largest I've seen is a 16x16, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. A lot of mid/high tier models are modular so they can probably be slaved to one another to increase I/O count without resorting to getting a single unit with a price with an extra digit or two in front of the comma...
Title: Re: HDMI over IP with low latency?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on September 21, 2018, 10:17:11 pm
Do you need to change the quantities of I/O, and span more than a room or two?  If so, video over IP (SVSI is great) is perfect.  Altona and many others also make options above the cheap Far East brands. 

If it's more simple - HDbaseT is more what you need. 

Cost will be more than a couple hundred per end point though.  HDbaseT matrices or network switches for IP alone are around that. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Title: Re: HDMI over IP with low latency?
Post by: Tom Bourke on September 22, 2018, 08:24:40 am
Quote
Looking to do a matrix switch (~12 in, ~20 out) by VLAN tagging HDMI over IP
The "by VLAN tagging" part has me wondering what your trying to do.  It reads to me your trying to do the matrix switch at the network level.  I doubt that will work, or if it does it will be unstable.

What is the over all goal?  Switching computers to stations? at what distances?
Title: Re: HDMI over IP with low latency?
Post by: Sean Schult on September 24, 2018, 09:49:49 pm
Thanks guys. Here's the clarifications requested.

I am not considering HDbaseT because the required matrix size would be prohibitively expensive. If somebody can point me to a 12x20 matrix for a couple grand, I'd reconsider that, but I don't expect that to exist.

This spans two floors of a venue and several rooms. All cable runs within 300ft but most more than 100ft. Flexibility is a goal as the owner may want to add/move/change sources and displays. Running cat6 is a lot easier than running HDMI.

Yes I am trying to do the matrix switch at the network level. I've done it years ago, and there are several products out there for this purpose. It worked well for me on a Cisco Catalyst 3650, and I've read that it works well on the Cisco SG300/SG500 series as well which is what I would spec.

Overall goal is to implement a flexible matrix switch which can present any source to any location from a central control panel. I have a lot of options for the control so less worried about that. Mostly worried about finding HDMI over IP adapters which have low latency and are reasonably affordable. The cheap ones are less than $100 each. I suspect the latency on these would make them unusable for gaming. The JAP ones I cannot find a price for but suspect them to be $500+ however advertise a latency within my spec. Looking for something in the middle or a deal on JAP stuff.
Title: Re: HDMI over IP with low latency?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 24, 2018, 10:41:42 pm
Thanks guys. Here's the clarifications requested.

I am not considering HDbaseT because the required matrix size would be prohibitively expensive. If somebody can point me to a 12x20 matrix for a couple grand, I'd reconsider that, but I don't expect that to exist.

This spans two floors of a venue and several rooms. All cable runs within 300ft but most more than 100ft. Flexibility is a goal as the owner may want to add/move/change sources and displays. Running cat6 is a lot easier than running HDMI.

Yes I am trying to do the matrix switch at the network level. I've done it years ago, and there are several products out there for this purpose. It worked well for me on a Cisco Catalyst 3650, and I've read that it works well on the Cisco SG300/SG500 series as well which is what I would spec.

Overall goal is to implement a flexible matrix switch which can present any source to any location from a central control panel. I have a lot of options for the control so less worried about that. Mostly worried about finding HDMI over IP adapters which have low latency and are reasonably affordable. The cheap ones are less than $100 each. I suspect the latency on these would make them unusable for gaming. The JAP ones I cannot find a price for but suspect them to be $500+ however advertise a latency within my spec. Looking for something in the middle or a deal on JAP stuff.

Before we go any farther it's important to distinguish between layer 2 and 3.  You are looking for HDMI over Ethernet, not IP.

802.1Q Vlan's are a layer 2 construct.

Despite how much they are liked the user interface on the Cisco ne Linksys switches is utter useless garbage to anyone who understands network.  Navigating around the web interface is brutal and you must update both VLAN access tables, VLAN mode tables then assign the VLAN to each port vs. typing 'switchport access vlan 3' in IOS.

You can also control VLAN assignment in IOS via SNMP.  If you are clever you could write a little program that present assignment buttons then wrote out the VLAN tag.  It would be very easy in PHP and present a web interface.

Used Catalyst switches are cheaper than used condoms on the secondary market.

Title: Re: HDMI over IP with low latency?
Post by: Sean Schult on September 25, 2018, 11:15:30 am
Before we go any farther it's important to distinguish between layer 2 and 3.  You are looking for HDMI over Ethernet, not IP.

802.1Q Vlan's are a layer 2 construct.

Despite how much they are liked the user interface on the Cisco ne Linksys switches is utter useless garbage to anyone who understands network.  Navigating around the web interface is brutal and you must update both VLAN access tables, VLAN mode tables then assign the VLAN to each port vs. typing 'switchport access vlan 3' in IOS.

You can also control VLAN assignment in IOS via SNMP.  If you are clever you could write a little program that present assignment buttons then wrote out the VLAN tag.  It would be very easy in PHP and present a web interface.

Used Catalyst switches are cheaper than used condoms on the secondary market.

Scott,

Thanks for your comments. The devices I'm referring to all use IP. It would be possible to do switching with multicast groups as well. I chose VLANs because it's cleaner to contain a stream to a broadcast domain and it will be simpler to keep all of the devices on a standard IP for sender/receiver. So it is indeed HDMI over IP that I am seeking, despite the fact that I will use a layer 2 mechanism to switch them. Saying HDMI over Ethernet implies that it would send frames using some protocol other than TCP/IP and it is not.

Switchport assignments can be controlled via SNMP or CLI on the SG300 and SG500 switches as well. Have you used them recently? The Linksys firmware was ditched years ago on anything greater than SG200 series. They run a very capable firmware nowadays, which includes a CLI which is very IOS-like. I've installed hundreds of them and have only had 1 hardware failure so far (a fan died, switch continued working fine until it was fixed) and 1 software failure (bug in firmware caused ports to reset when a particular model of SIP phone is connected, later fixed in update). They've been solid for me, even in high bandwidth situations.

I appreciate the broad range of advice but have the networking aspect of this covered and am not looking to re-analyze the overall solution. I'm very specifically looking for:
1. People who can comment on the encoding latency of a specific model of HDMI over IP device
2. People who can give me a price on Just-Add-Power products

Thanks,
-Sean
Title: Re: HDMI over IP with low latency?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 25, 2018, 11:29:48 am
Scott,

Thanks for your comments. The devices I'm referring to all use IP. It would be possible to do switching with multicast groups as well. I chose VLANs because it's cleaner to contain a stream to a broadcast domain and it will be simpler to keep all of the devices on a standard IP for sender/receiver. So it is indeed HDMI over IP that I am seeking, despite the fact that I will use a layer 2 mechanism to switch them. Saying HDMI over Ethernet implies that it would send frames using some protocol other than TCP/IP and it is not.

Switchport assignments can be controlled via SNMP or CLI on the SG300 and SG500 switches as well. Have you used them recently? The Linksys firmware was ditched years ago on anything greater than SG200 series. They run a very capable firmware nowadays, which includes a CLI which is very IOS-like. I've installed hundreds of them and have only had 1 hardware failure so far (a fan died, switch continued working fine until it was fixed) and 1 software failure (bug in firmware caused ports to reset when a particular model of SIP phone is connected, later fixed in update). They've been solid for me, even in high bandwidth situations.

I appreciate the broad range of advice but have the networking aspect of this covered and am not looking to re-analyze the overall solution. I'm very specifically looking for:
1. People who can comment on the encoding latency of a specific model of HDMI over IP device
2. People who can give me a price on Just-Add-Power products

Thanks,
-Sean

To answer your question I have seen the new OS, lipstick on a pig IMHO.  I am glad the failure rates are good.  Once configured they do work fine.  I have a NOC full of Cisco snobs too so the hatred of the SG stuff runs deep. 

I was not suggesting multicast, though that is an option.  I was thinking a Unicast solution.

I thought the SNMP control was a clever option to accomplish what you wanted, sounds like you already have it in hand.  I don't have any input on product selection, sorry.

Title: Re: HDMI over IP with low latency?
Post by: Sean Schult on September 25, 2018, 05:46:14 pm
To answer your question I have seen the new OS, lipstick on a pig IMHO.  I am glad the failure rates are good.  Once configured they do work fine.  I have a NOC full of Cisco snobs too so the hatred of the SG stuff runs deep. 

I was not suggesting multicast, though that is an option.  I was thinking a Unicast solution.

I thought the SNMP control was a clever option to accomplish what you wanted, sounds like you already have it in hand.  I don't have any input on product selection, sorry.

Fair enough, it's all relative. An SG isn't a Catalyst isn't a Nexus, and a Behringer isn't a Digico either. But they all can be the right tool for the right job when used within known limitations by a knowledgeable operator. =)

Thanks for your thoughts, Scott.
Title: Re: HDMI over IP with low latency?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 25, 2018, 06:26:54 pm
Fair enough, it's all relative. An SG isn't a Catalyst isn't a Nexus, and a Behringer isn't a Digico either. But they all can be the right tool for the right job when used within known limitations by a knowledgeable operator. =)

Thanks for your thoughts, Scott.

Indeed, good luck on your solution.  We have a Nexus 9.5k chassis due in November so I will hold off on NX-OS.   Some of our code in the 6500's traces back to the Cat 5500 days so this is a mature DC to say the least.

I am more worried about making my dates than the technology.  20 years ago I would have been excited, now I see risk.  Cloud revenue represents over half the company revenue so much on the line.

Take care.



Title: Re: HDMI over IP with low latency?
Post by: Nathan Riddle on September 25, 2018, 06:29:09 pm
I would look into Vsicam. I haven't used them but came across them in some research.

latency =
1 frame or 33ms @ 30fps

http://www.vsicam.com/

http://www.vsicam.com/core/__downloads/VISIONARY-SPEC-E4100-D4100-V1.pdf

http://www.vsicam.com/__news/visionary-solutions-enables-new-willow-creek-community-church-av-network/#sthash.kFkVTyO5.xUIUiWQ9.dpbs