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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Nicholas Johnson on February 03, 2018, 02:25:20 pm

Title: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 03, 2018, 02:25:20 pm
Hi,

I have a blown horn on one of my CSX57-S2 and I wanted to know where I can find a replacement or one that supersedes the sound quality? Im djing a 40th bday party for my wife this weekend and i would like to use these speakers.

http://www.communitypro.com/sites/default/files/CSX57-S2_spec.pdf
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Frank Czar on February 03, 2018, 02:31:30 pm
Hi

Did you check to see if it is one of the "Power Sense" protection bulbs in the cross over?
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 03, 2018, 02:50:31 pm
No. How can i check or what do i check for?
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 03, 2018, 03:21:19 pm
No. How can i check or what do i check for?
Take the cabinet apart.

Disconnect 1 lead from the HF driver. 

Measure the resistance of the HF driver.

That is a FIRST step.  I would take the diaphragm out of the driver and look at it.

Look at the "bulbs" (they are not actually light bulbs, but rather resistors that glow like lights).

Measure the resistance across the bulbs.

Let us know what you find, and then go from there
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 03, 2018, 05:07:51 pm
Take the cabinet apart.

Disconnect 1 lead from the HF driver. 

Measure the resistance of the HF driver.

That is a FIRST step.  I would take the diaphragm out of the driver and look at it.

Look at the "bulbs" (they are not actually light bulbs, but rather resistors that glow like lights).

Measure the resistance across the bulbs.

Let us know what you find, and then go from there

Thank you! Both HF drivers show no resistance and all resistors read the same as pic below.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/zadlz.jpg)
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 03, 2018, 06:58:02 pm
Thank you! Both HF drivers show no resistance and all resistors read the same as pic below.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/zadlz.jpg)
Based on that, the HF diaphragms are dead.

So take them out of the drivers and have a look.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 03, 2018, 07:14:45 pm
I took them out and they look ok. Where can I find a replacement or one that supersedes the sound quality?
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 03, 2018, 08:15:39 pm
I took them out and they look ok. Where can I find a replacement or one that supersedes the sound quality?
A photo of the existing driver would be a good start.

However, you can't just "swap drivers".

Sometimes you will get lucky.  Other times, due to the differences of the impedance CURVE (not the simple number), the crossover character could be quite different.

Add that to the possibly different sensitivity and freq response, and a "better" driver might actually provide worse performance
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 03, 2018, 09:37:18 pm
What if I try to rewire everything with different crossover and new HF drivers?

(http://i67.tinypic.com/25slwl4.jpg)
(http://i63.tinypic.com/6r6az9.jpg)
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Caleb Dueck on February 03, 2018, 09:41:28 pm
What if I try to rewire everything with different crossover and new HF drivers?
At that point - just buy new, better speakers. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 03, 2018, 09:59:27 pm
Nicholas, your HF died because you ran your rig too hard, very likely by driving the amplifier into fairly constant clipping.

You don't have Enough Rig For The Gig. You can't "improve" your existing speakers in a reasonable way... not you personally but that once you change a component the rest isn't meant to work with your new thingy for reasons pointed out above.

Order replacement HF diaphragms, get you speakers working as Community intended, play the party and sell them to replace with something more in keeping with your SPL needs without burning up.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 03, 2018, 10:13:59 pm
Nicholas, your HF died because you ran your rig too hard, very likely by driving the amplifier into fairly constant clipping.

You don't have Enough Rig For The Gig. You can't "improve" your existing speakers in a reasonable way... not you personally but that once you change a component the rest isn't meant to work with your new thingy for reasons pointed out above.

Order replacement HF diaphragms, get you speakers working as Community intended, play the party and sell them to replace with something more in keeping with your SPL needs without burning up.

I wish I could just order exact replacements but i dont think anyone sells them.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 03, 2018, 10:35:32 pm
I wish I could just order exact replacements but i dont think anyone sells them.

Those are basic Eminence drivers, 8 ohm going by what the lable says. Parts for those are available just about any place that sells speaker parts, look at Parts Express.

The picture of your meter actually shows resistance, a little over 1 ohm, depending on if the meter was zeroed before the measurment, not no resistance.

You may still have crossover damage, post up a picture of the crossover.

I just looked up the specs on that driver the dc resistance is about 6 ohms, so either your meter was not zeroed or the driver's voice coil is shorted.
Did you disconnect the driver before the measuring the resistance?

The driver is PSD 2002 series.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 03, 2018, 11:29:30 pm
Those are basic Eminence drivers, 8 ohm going by what the lable says. Parts for those are available just about any place that sells speaker parts, look at Parts Express.

The picture of your meter actually shows resistance, a little over 1 ohm, depending on if the meter was zeroed before the measurment, not no resistance.

You may still have crossover damage, post up a picture of the crossover.

I just looked up the specs on that driver the dc resistance is about 6 ohms, so either your meter was not zeroed or the driver's voice coil is shorted.
Did you disconnect the driver before the measuring the resistance?

The driver is PSD 2002 series.

The pic i showed with resistance was from the crossover. I disconnected one of the leads before measuring the driver and the meter read 0

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2dbqvpx.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2liamte.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/30ws482.jpg)
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 03, 2018, 11:57:24 pm
A meter reading of 0 means a dead short not 0 ohms as in an open connection. Either one is bad news when measuring a driver.

The picture or your crossover does not show any ovious signs of being burned up.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 04, 2018, 12:03:17 am
A meter reading of 0 means a dead short not 0 ohms as in an open connection. Either one is bad news when measuring a driver.

The picture or your crossover does not show any ovious signs of being burned up.

So I can go to parts express and buy replacement drivers and it should sound ok? I saw a few of the PSD 2002 series on their website for different prices which one would you recommend?
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 04, 2018, 12:15:34 am
So I can go to parts express and buy replacement drivers and it should sound ok?

If there is no hidden damage in the crossover, like burned out bulb, kinda tough to tell for sure in the pictures.

You only need to replace the back cap diaphragm on the driver. You'll need to clean the voice coil gap when replacing the diaphragm, you can search the fourms on how to properly do it.
In the long run it would be easier just to put on a new driver.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 04, 2018, 12:21:24 am
If there is no hidden damage in the crossover, like burned out bulb, kinda tough to tell for sure in the pictures.

You only need to replace the back cap diaphragm on the driver. You'll need to clean the voice coil gap when replacing the diaphragm, you can search the fourms on how to properly do it.
In the long run it would be easier just to put on a new driver.

I would rather put a new driver.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 04, 2018, 12:23:34 am
do you think this will be ok?

https://www.parts-express.com/eminence-psd-2002-8-1-titanium-driver-8-ohm-2-3-bolt--290-442
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 04, 2018, 10:05:29 am
do you think this will be ok?

https://www.parts-express.com/eminence-psd-2002-8-1-titanium-driver-8-ohm-2-3-bolt--290-442
There were 2 versions of Eminance drivers that looked identical on the outside.

But the phase plug and diaphragm were different.

Take the diaphragm off and show a photo of the edges of the diaphragm.

I have forgotten which is which, but others might remember.

You also need to be sure to get the correct impedance of the driver.

It could be that the drivers just "broke", and were not overpowered.

Looking at the diaphram will give the best idea of what went wrong, possibly how it happened.


Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 04, 2018, 11:02:08 am
do you think this will be ok?

https://www.parts-express.com/eminence-psd-2002-8-1-titanium-driver-8-ohm-2-3-bolt--290-442

Is yours the bolt on or screw on version, I could not really really tell from the picture you posted, the same driver is available in eitehr mounting option.

The screw on will just un-screw from the horn by turning the driver, the bolt on will have two on three bolt heads or nuts exposed on the flange on the front of the driver.
 
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 04, 2018, 11:06:22 am
Is yours the bolt on or screw on version, I could not really really tell from the picture you posted, the same driver is available in eitehr mounting option.

The screw on will just un-screw from the horn by turning the driver, the bolt on will have two on three bolt heads or nuts exposed on the flange on the front of the driver.

it's the bolt on. it has 2 bolts and it has 8 ohms written on the side.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 04, 2018, 11:08:27 am
There were 2 versions of Eminance drivers that looked identical on the outside.

But the phase plug and diaphragm were different.

Take the diaphragm off and show a photo of the edges of the diaphragm.

I have forgotten which is which, but others might remember.

You also need to be sure to get the correct impedance of the driver.

It could be that the drivers just "broke", and were not overpowered.

Looking at the diaphram will give the best idea of what went wrong, possibly how it happened.

I'll pull apart when I get back home. it says 8 ohms on the side of the driver and its 2 bolt
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 04, 2018, 12:56:27 pm
I'll pull apart when I get back home. it says 8 ohms on the side of the driver and its 2 bolt

Then it might be the 2nd version of the driver.

I "think" (but could be wrong, I've slept since the 80s when they first came out) the 1st version was screw on only.  But the second version was bolt or screw on, 8 or 16 ohm.

I would not replace the driver, but just the diaphragm.

Guessing at a "better" driver could result in better or worse performance.

Hopefully your diaphragms just broke, and were not overpowered.  So a replacement diaphragm would work just fine.

There may be a white sticker on the side, that starts with 67-xxxx.  That would be a good indicator of the particular model.  67 is eminances loudspeaker manufacturer code #.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Art Welter on February 04, 2018, 01:21:19 pm
Then it might be the 2nd version of the driver.

I "think" (but could be wrong, I've slept since the 80s when they first came out) the 1st version was screw on only.  But the second version was bolt or screw on, 8 or 16 ohm.

I would not replace the driver, but just the diaphragm.
There were "Series I" and Series II" PSD 2002 diaphragms, I had both in bolt on versions. As far as I know, the "Series I" are no longer available (as of ten years ago...), and the drivers themselves had no marking differences to denote a difference between the two. The differences between the two was primarily in the VHF response, and probably will not be a big deal for the OP, as long as he matches the correct impedance.

The OP could check the impedance of one of the woofers and compare it to the working diaphragm, if it measures near the same, it is likely an 8 ohm, if it measures about twice as high, it is 16 ohm.

Art
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 04, 2018, 01:56:10 pm
So I can go to parts express and buy replacement drivers and it should sound ok? I saw a few of the PSD 2002 series on their website for different prices which one would you recommend?

Contact Community Professional Loudspeakers.  They should have parts (diaphragms) or suggestions for after market replacements if their stock is depleted.

I'll say this one more time before ignoring this topic...

You can't 'improve' a loudspeaker by making non-OEM component swaps.  What you accomplish is to create a "Frankenspeaker" that looses value compared to an original version; you'll spend whatever amount and have near zero recovery value when you try to sell them off.... and it probably won't sound right, either.  Not that the CSX series were great to begin with (although as budget speakers go they were reasonable good) but there's no reason to sabotage their performance.

You need to figure out *why* you're blowing HF or you'll be repeating this like the Groundhog Day movie...

Then fix these, play the birthday party and sell them.  Buy speakers that will deliver the SPL you need for the work you do... or be prepared to do this all over again.

Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 04, 2018, 02:12:06 pm
Contact Community Professional Loudspeakers.  They should have parts (diaphragms) or suggestions for after market replacements if their stock is depleted.

I'll say this one more time before ignoring this topic...

You can't 'improve' a loudspeaker by making non-OEM component swaps.  What you accomplish is to create a "Frankenspeaker" that looses value compared to an original version; you'll spend whatever amount and have near zero recovery value when you try to sell them off.... and it probably won't sound right, either.  Not that the CSX series were great to begin with (although as budget speakers go they were reasonable good) but there's no reason to sabotage their performance.

You need to figure out *why* you're blowing HF or you'll be repeating this like the Groundhog Day movie...

Then fix these, play the birthday party and sell them.  Buy speakers that will deliver the SPL you need for the work you do... or be prepared to do this all over again.
You are totally correct.

But I still stand by my comments that the diaphragms may have just broken.

The CSX series first came out in the mid 80s or so.  So the cabinets might be pretty old.

I have never personally seen a diaphragm that has been "blown up", that had the HPCCRs (the "bulbs") in Community products.  But I have seen a number of the bulbs go bad.  Since he measured them and they appear to be fine, I don't think that is the problem.

We will get a better idea when we see CLEAR photos of the voice coils of the diaphragms.

While those Eminance drivers are not the best sounding ones, they are pretty durable.  And that was the main goal for the intended market.

Community always made good use out of inexpensive components.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 04, 2018, 02:14:25 pm
There were "Series I" and Series II" PSD 2002 diaphragms, I had both in bolt on versions. As far as I know, the "Series I" are no longer available (as of ten years ago...), and the drivers themselves had no marking differences to denote a difference between the two. The differences between the two was primarily in the VHF response, and probably will not be a big deal for the OP, as long as he matches the correct impedance.


I have "heard" (cannot confirm) that the phase plug was different.  I also "heard" that the series II diaphragms would fit the series I, but not the other way around.

So maybe the dome shape/depth was different, but the voice coil diameter was the same.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 05, 2018, 03:56:17 am
(http://i68.tinypic.com/minsdj.jpg)
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2ez4vth.jpg)
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 05, 2018, 07:49:05 am
(http://i68.tinypic.com/minsdj.jpg)
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2ez4vth.jpg)
Can you show some sideways shots of the coil itself.

It doesn't look to have gotten hot.

Look for small black spots, and take a photo of them (if there are any).

From the little I can see, it appears as if they have just broken from age, bad connection etc.

So simply putting the correct replacement in would be fine.

But I can't really see clear enough
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 05, 2018, 08:02:44 am
Those look clean but there could still be a broken connection where the lead attaches to the voice coil.
With the meter shown in the earlier pictures what reading did you get when you measured the driver with the driver completely disconnected.

Before you measure with that meter put it in the resistance mode, take both meter test leads hold them together and adjust the zeroing dial to set the meter hand on zero.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Marc Sibilia on February 05, 2018, 11:28:29 am
Before you measure with that meter put it in the resistance mode, take both meter test leads hold them together and adjust the zeroing dial to set the meter hand on zero.

Anybody look carefully at that meter reading?  It is reading 1200 ohms.  That meter is the wrong meter for measuring drivers.  The only range for resistance measurement is x1 kohm.

OP: You need to find a meter that will properly distinguish between 0 ohm, 6-8 ohms, and open circuit.

Marc
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 05, 2018, 12:50:47 pm
Anybody look carefully at that meter reading?  It is reading 1200 ohms.  That meter is the wrong meter for measuring drivers.  The only range for resistance measurement is x1 kohm.

OP: You need to find a meter that will properly distinguish between 0 ohm, 6-8 ohms, and open circuit.

Marc
OOPS, I looked quickly at the meter and saw the x1 scale (didn't see the K).

I believe he was measuring across the HPCCRs at the time.  They should read close to a short when cold.

So maybe there are multiple problems here
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Marc Sibilia on February 05, 2018, 01:17:43 pm
OOPS, I looked quickly at the meter and saw the x1 scale (didn't see the K).

I believe he was measuring across the HPCCRs at the time.  They should read close to a short when cold.

So maybe there are multiple problems here

I suspect the battery was low on the meter, or it wasn't zeroed with the leads shorted together.  In any case, the difference between 8 ohm and a dead short would not be seen on that meter.  It was useful for showing that the voice coil is not an open circuit, but isn't any more useful than that.


Marc
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Marc Sibilia on February 05, 2018, 03:26:34 pm
It was useful for showing that the voice coil is not an open circuit, but isn't any more useful than that.

I take back what I said about the meter.  It can be useful because you can measure current with it.

If you can find a better meter, use that to measure the resistance.

If you don't have a better meter, you can measure using your meter, a 1.5V battery, some clip leads or wire, and a working 8 ohm speaker.

Wire:
1) the battery (+) to the good speaker (+),
2) the good speaker (-) to the unknown diaphragm (+)
3) the unknown diaphragm (-) to the meter (+)
set the meter on 250 DCma range then
4) the meter (-) to the battery (-)

The (+) and (-) don't really matter on the speakers and are just for reference. They only really matter on the battery and meter.

If the current reads about 180 to 250 ma, the diaphragm is shorted (dead).
If the current reads about 90 to 125 ma, the voice coil on the diaphragm is OK.

You need the extra speaker (or a 6 to 10 ohm resistor) to limit the current and prevent blowing the fuse in your meter if the diaphragm is a dead short.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 05, 2018, 09:17:26 pm
OOPS, I looked quickly at the meter and saw the x1 scale (didn't see the K).

I believe he was measuring across the HPCCRs at the time.  They should read close to a short when cold.

So maybe there are multiple problems here

As did I!

As Marc said it would at least tell him/us if the voice coil was open or not before saying to go ahead and get a replacement diaphragm or driver.

Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 06, 2018, 01:51:03 pm
You won't gain anything by replacing the whole driver. Just replacing the diaphragm will bring it back to "like new".

It's kinda like the tires on your car. If you have a blowout, you don't buy a whole new wheel. You replace the tire....



Also, if there's a speaker recone shop anywhere close to you, I'll bet money they have those diaphragms in stock. They were used in tons and tons of speakers.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 15, 2018, 12:26:59 am
Thanks guys for all your help. I ended up replacing the driver from parts express and it worked out well. The party was a success and nothing was blown 8). My next question is what speakers do you guys recommend me upgrading too? I thinking of replacing all the speakers with something of better sound and quality and more bass. I listen to a lot of reggae so I need something that can handle bass lol.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/zmlbv8.jpg)
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Rick Powell on February 15, 2018, 12:42:42 am
My next question is what speakers do you guys recommend me upgrading too? I thinking of replacing all the speakers with something of better sound and quality and more bass. I listen to a lot of reggae so I need something that can handle bass lol.

A few questions for you to recommend something.
What is your budget?
Are you otherwise satisfied with your current speakers output, and just want something with better lows and clearer highs?
Powered or unpowered?
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 15, 2018, 01:21:40 am
A few questions for you to recommend something.
What is your budget?
Are you otherwise satisfied with your current speakers output, and just want something with better lows and clearer highs?
Powered or unpowered?

I would rather passive unless you recommend a powered setup that goes really low. I want more output, better lows and clearer highs and looking to stay in the 5k range
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 15, 2018, 07:27:18 am
I would rather passive unless you recommend a powered setup that goes really low. I want more output, better lows and clearer highs and looking to stay in the 5k range
Is that 5K for subs and tops?

What amps do you have?  Or is that to be included also?
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Rick Powell on February 15, 2018, 09:31:23 am
Is that 5K for subs and tops?

What amps do you have?  Or is that to be included also?

And, if your amps don't have built in processing, do you have a processor, and what is it?
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 15, 2018, 12:23:12 pm
And, if your amps don't have built in processing, do you have a processor, and what is it?

5k for subs and tops. I have the Behringer NU6000 that I just bought to try out and I like it. I'm thinking of getting the DSP version. I also have 2 crown power base 3 for tops. I'm thinking of getting rid of the crowns and getting another nu6000 with DSP.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Don T. Williams on February 15, 2018, 10:21:36 pm
A word of warning.  The DSP and non DSP versions won't sound the same.  There is latency (delay from the time it takes to process the signals digitally) in the DSP versions.  There also seems to be some difference in the sensitivity between the models.  I would suggest another non DSP version and a separate processor.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 16, 2018, 12:41:29 am
A word of warning.  The DSP and non DSP versions won't sound the same.  There is latency (delay from the time it takes to process the signals digitally) in the DSP versions.  There also seems to be some difference in the sensitivity between the models.  I would suggest another non DSP version and a separate processor.

Thanks for the info. What processor do you recommend? I would like something simple.
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Don T. Williams on February 16, 2018, 11:04:40 am
I'm not trying to make this harder, but by "simple" do you just want something that works as a crossover, or are you wanting compression/limiting and parametric filters?  If you want the latter, its a lot more complex.  Do you have a way to test and set it up for maximum performance?

Its possible Community can recommend a processor and/or assist you with suggested settings, but that is a legacy product.  With some of the newer passive systems manufacturers (QSC and JBL come to mind) they have processors or processing amps that are pre programed to match the loudspeakers.  Those are "simple" to use because engineers have already done the work for you.  I'm not saying this is the only way to get improved sound from your existing system, but maximizing the results is a complex process!
Title: Re: Community CSX57-S2 Help!
Post by: Nicholas Johnson on February 16, 2018, 03:51:00 pm
I'm not trying to make this harder, but by "simple" do you just want something that works as a crossover, or are you wanting compression/limiting and parametric filters?  If you want the latter, its a lot more complex.  Do you have a way to test and set it up for maximum performance?

Its possible Community can recommend a processor and/or assist you with suggested settings, but that is a legacy product.  With some of the newer passive systems manufacturers (QSC and JBL come to mind) they have processors or processing amps that are pre programed to match the loudspeakers.  Those are "simple" to use because engineers have already done the work for you.  I'm not saying this is the only way to get improved sound from your existing system, but maximizing the results is a complex process!

I would like to see both options and then choose. I think I might lean towards a crossover and eq setup but I would still like to see what you guys recommend. I use mostly my ears for testing and the audiotools app.