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Church and H.O.W. Ė Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Robert Weaver on October 01, 2017, 08:23:33 pm

Title: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Robert Weaver on October 01, 2017, 08:23:33 pm
We are looking for new speakers for our gym. The only option that was given was to mount speakercraft cinema one profile aim speakers.  There will be 6 of these in three pairs.  Each pair I believe will be a stereo configuration. The gym is 100íx75íx28í. The whole goal in this was to get better speech reinforcement.  The company that quoted this system specializes in Home theatres. These speakers will be place behind the stage when we do VBS. We use 5-6 mics at any one time during VBS.  I personally think this system will be a disaster and isnít going to work.  Hanging speakers or speakers on a stand is not an option.  Iíve already told them this is going to be a feedback nightmare and trying to overcome 500 screaming kids isnít going to happen.  And the cost for this system is a little over $7K! 
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on October 01, 2017, 08:38:41 pm
We are looking for new speakers for our gym. The only option that was given was to mount speakercraft cinema one profile aim speakers.  There will be 6 of these in three pairs.  Each pair I believe will be a stereo configuration. The gym is 100íx75íx28í. The whole goal in this was to get better speech reinforcement.  The company that quoted this system specializes in Home theatres. These speakers will be place behind the stage when we do VBS. We use 5-6 mics at any one time during VBS.  I personally think this system will be a disaster and isnít going to work.  Hanging speakers or speakers on a stand is not an option.  Iíve already told them this is going to be a feedback nightmare and trying to overcome 500 screaming kids isnít going to happen.  And the cost for this system is a little over $7K!

Robert,
Why is this your only option?

Why is hanging speakers not an option?

While you need to run from this proposed solution, $7k for a typical gym install is super cheap.  I would start your budget at roughly double that for quality components.   Can you tell us a little more about your setups though, i.e. Seating locations, stage locations, and other uses besides VBS, such as basketball or other assemblies.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on October 01, 2017, 08:59:18 pm
Robert,
Why is this your only option?

Why is hanging speakers not an option?

While you need to run from this proposed solution, $7k for a typical gym install is super cheap.  I would start your budget at roughly double that for quality components.   Can you tell us a little more about your setups though, i.e. Seating locations, stage locations, and other uses besides VBS, such as basketball or other assemblies.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

They are afraid of speakers falling from being hit by balls. I was told that in wall speakers are the only option that is acceptable.  For VBS itís setup in a fan shape to cover the whole basketball court. VBS is the main even in the gym.  We do junior church there, but itís only on one end inside the 3 point line.   The stage is 24x16. Itís set off the wall about 4í.  One of the options I have provided was mounting a Renkus Heinz Iconyx on the back wall.  I was told that in wall was the only option and that wasnít going to go.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 01, 2017, 09:04:02 pm
There will be 6 of these in three pairs.  Each pair I believe will be a stereo configuration. The gym is 100íx75íx28í. The whole goal in this was to get better speech reinforcement.  The company that quoted this system specializes in Home theatres. These speakers will be place behind the stage when we do VBS. We use 5-6 mics at any one time during VBS. 
I would run as fast as I can-for several reasons.

What is the layout of the 3 sets of speakers vs the audience?

The idea of 3 "stereo" setups is completely wrong

Placing the speakers behind the stage is WRONG-ESPECIALLY with kids and mics.

7K is really to low when you consider the number of speakers, installation, alignment etc.

You are correct, this is not going to work and will be pretty much a waste of time and money.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on October 01, 2017, 09:32:06 pm
They are afraid of speakers falling from being hit by balls. I was told that in wall speakers are the only option that is acceptable.  For VBS itís setup in a fan shape to cover the whole basketball court. VBS is the main even in the gym.  We do junior church there, but itís only on one end inside the 3 point line.   The stage is 24x16. Itís set off the wall about 4í.  One of the options I have provided was mounting a Renkus Heinz Iconyx on the back wall.  I was told that in wall was the only option and that wasnít going to go.

Can I take a guess at something.  The guy proposing these "speakercraft" speakers....is he on whatever board is calling the shots?  or is it his friend? Here is a good article which seems applicable to your situation...http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

If a speaker falls from getting hit by a ball, your installer has serious problems.  Show your people this video....  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d0NIqoIqBg

Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: David Pedd on October 02, 2017, 12:05:55 am
22 years ago we replaced in-wall speakers in a high school gym with one Soundsphere Q-12 (or whatever the comparable model was back then.  Dead center in the gym.  Unbelievable difference and voice intelligibility was outstanding.

My point is that simplicity is sometimes the best answer.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on October 02, 2017, 02:03:48 am
Can I take a guess at something.  The guy proposing these "speakercraft" speakers....is he on whatever board is calling the shots?  or is it his friend? Here is a good article which seems applicable to your situation...http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

If a speaker falls from getting hit by a ball, your installer has serious problems.  Show your people this video....  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d0NIqoIqBg

The person is not affiliated in any way.  It was the first person they could get a hold of in the area.  Iíve been running the sound at my church for the last 13 years. In that time Iíve had to make upgrades to our existing auditorium system.  I do all of the support for anything audio visual. When it breaks or squeals they come to me. I love what I do, but if they go through with this Iím going to make it clear that Iím not attempting to fix any of it other than replacement.  What is going to happen is itís not going to work correctly during VBS. They will then call the people who installed it. They will come out and say everything works fine.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Ray Aberle on October 02, 2017, 01:03:42 pm
Robert, are you a volunteer?

-Ray
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: David Mau on October 03, 2017, 11:44:31 am
We are looking for new speakers for our gym. The only option that was given was to mount speakercraft cinema one profile aim speakers.  There will be 6 of these in three pairs.  Each pair I believe will be a stereo configuration. The gym is 100íx75íx28í. The whole goal in this was to get better speech reinforcement.  The company that quoted this system specializes in Home theatres. These speakers will be place behind the stage when we do VBS. We use 5-6 mics at any one time during VBS.  I personally think this system will be a disaster and isnít going to work.  Hanging speakers or speakers on a stand is not an option.  Iíve already told them this is going to be a feedback nightmare and trying to overcome 500 screaming kids isnít going to happen.  And the cost for this system is a little over $7K!

Robert,

Look into the following:
EV ZX1-90 $329 (90x50 Degrees coverage, single 8", 200w continuous/800w peak)
QSC E10 $379 each (85 Degrees coverage,  Single 10", 300W continuous/1200W peak)
Yamaha C112VA $419 (90x40 Degrees coverage, Single 12", 350W continuous/750w peak)
QSC S282H in White or Black $830 each (90x60 Degrees coverage, Dual 8", 450W continuous/900W peak)

We've used all quite effectively in Gym settings and as they are all passive, a $300-400 Crown amp can power 2, 3, or 4 easily. They all have quite rugged designs and are easy to hang with Eye bolts, chain, etc.

Y'all need to get a different quote stat!
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on October 03, 2017, 12:43:52 pm
Robert,

Look into the following:
EV ZX1-90 $329 (90x50 Degrees coverage, single 8", 200w continuous/800w peak)
QSC E10 $379 each (85 Degrees coverage,  Single 10", 300W continuous/1200W peak)
Yamaha C112VA $419 (90x40 Degrees coverage, Single 12", 350W continuous/750w peak)
QSC S282H in White or Black $830 each (90x60 Degrees coverage, Dual 8", 450W continuous/900W peak)

We've used all quite effectively in Gym settings and as they are all passive, a $300-400 Crown amp can power 2, 3, or 4 easily. They all have quite rugged designs and are easy to hang with Eye bolts, chain, etc.

Y'all need to get a different quote stat!

Y'all need to git real.  This is generally poor advice and the "easy to hang" part is extremely ill-advised.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on October 03, 2017, 12:57:00 pm
They are afraid of speakers falling from being hit by balls. I was told that in wall speakers are the only option that is acceptable.  For VBS itís setup in a fan shape to cover the whole basketball court. VBS is the main even in the gym.  We do junior church there, but itís only on one end inside the 3 point line.   The stage is 24x16. Itís set off the wall about 4í.  One of the options I have provided was mounting a Renkus Heinz Iconyx on the back wall.  I was told that in wall was the only option and that wasnít going to go.

There are solutions, but none of the options so far come anywhere close.  Is this for your use for church services or is the idea to provide comprehensive sound for a variety of uses including sports?
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: David Mau on October 03, 2017, 06:26:53 pm
Y'all need to git real.  This is generally poor advice and the "easy to hang" part is extremely ill-advised.

Mounting in a gym with a lift takes roughly 20 minutes a speaker...not sure what your definition of easy is?
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on October 03, 2017, 06:33:13 pm
Mounting in a gym with a lift takes roughly 20 minutes a speaker...not sure what your definition of easy is?

OP clearly states the powers that be do not want hanging speakers for safety reasons.   But...

For safety, liability and insurance reasons, you cannot just get a lift and hang speakers.  To advise people that "it's easy" ignores or omits the legal and moral requirements for diong such work.

Please do not argue the point.  Such installations require certified personnel to do the work and engineering certificates regarding hang/mounting points.  This is NOT do-it-yourself work.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: David Mau on October 03, 2017, 07:23:39 pm
OP clearly states the powers that be do not want hanging speakers for safety reasons.   But...

For safety, liability and insurance reasons, you cannot just get a lift and hang speakers.  To advise people that "it's easy" ignores or omits the legal and moral requirements for diong such work.

Please do not argue the point.  Such installations require certified personnel to do the work and engineering certificates regarding hang/mounting points.  This is NOT do-it-yourself work.

You're arguing semantics without understanding any context. No one is arguing that certified personnel wouldn't be doing the work. The idea is that a typical ceiling array doesn't involve ripping the roof off, HAZMAT, Demo, etc. and can be done in a short time period. Not suggesting that anyone with a pair of 25 foot stilts start a side job.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Ray Aberle on October 03, 2017, 08:46:12 pm
David, with a lack of supporting information, it best behooves us to assume the worst. Beyond the fact that the OP said hanging speakers is NOT an option, he also stated that the quoting company 'specialises in home theatre installations." That is NOT a company I would want to trust with a fixed rigged install.

-Ray
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on October 03, 2017, 08:52:28 pm
In addition, several of the speakers you recommended are not rated for flying.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Lee Buckalew on October 03, 2017, 10:30:01 pm
Mounting in a gym with a lift takes roughly 20 minutes a speaker...not sure what your definition of easy is?

If you don't count running the wire through the hooks that you have had to place to follow code, properly angling each speaker after the fact with audio not just "point it that way",  etc., etc.

Start to finish is significantly longer than 25 minutes per speaker. 

Lee
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Jamin Lynch on October 03, 2017, 11:25:14 pm
Mounting in a gym with a lift takes roughly 20 minutes a speaker...not sure what your definition of easy is?

You can't just run a lift on a gym floor. Especially if its a floating wood floor. The lift will crack it. Gotta put down 3/4" plywood everywhere you drive the lift to spread the load. Believe me, it's a HUGE pain.

A lift can scuff up even a painted concrete floor if you don't take the proper precautions.

If its a UIL listed gym nothing can be lower than 25ft.

Basketballs, volleyballs, ect have lost a lot of their inertia at 25ft. 
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on October 04, 2017, 08:45:48 am
I should apologize for my curt response.  It is engendered by the points listed in the last few posts.  There is more to it than speaker choice, use a lift, etc, and given the usual level of experience by posters seeking advice here, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on October 06, 2017, 01:25:00 am
Robert, are you a volunteer?

-Ray

Yes, however I'm am the audio expert in the church. 13 years experience.  I've kind of been left out of this whole process.  I've butted into this project knowing that I'm the one the ultimately going to be looked at to fix the problem. 
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on October 06, 2017, 01:30:35 am
(4) EA-AMP-2D-150A - Amplifier
(8) ASM59101 - Speakers

These are the amps and speakers quoted. 
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Lee Buckalew on October 06, 2017, 06:02:06 am
(4) EA-AMP-2D-150A - Amplifier
(8) ASM59101 - Speakers

These are the amps and speakers quoted.

Robert, 
If you can get someone at the church to listen to you and perhaps talk to other churches who have successfully integrated audio into a gym space you will find that the church needs to be talking to a consultant or a design-build company that specializes in professional sound reinforcement and that has successfully designed/integrated gym spaces.

The speakers and amplifier that were quoted to you are consumer, not professional grade and they are not suitable for the use that you have outlined. 

The speakers quoted will not be capable of getting loud enough to be used in a gym for typical sports level interactions/announcements.  They certainly would not get over 500 kids. 
Beyond that they lack pattern control and will, in my opinion, not help with voice intelligibility they will instead hurt voice intelligibility.  They will also, in the layout that you have described create a significant problem by not allowing enough gain before feedback.

Everything in sound reinforcement is about making compromises.  One of the first compromises in your gym is the gym.  Not the greatest acoustical space for spoken word intelligibility.  The acoustical challenges must be addressed by either treating the acoustical problems (not usually something a church or school will spend money on) or installing a sound system to try to minimize the worst of the problems created by the highly reverberant space.

In a highly reverberant space the best audio compromises for a sound system for speech intelligibility generally come from balancing a combination of specific wants.  Some of these wants are;
      Having as few sound sources (speakers) as possible in order to minimize additional sounds arriving at listeners at different/multiple times since multiple times of arrival decreases intelligibility.  You don't want multiple speakers covering a single person (as much as it can be avoided).
      Having each person covered by a speaker that is "close" to them.  This maximizes the relationship of the direct sound from the speaker getting to the listener before the reflections from the room get there.
      Having speakers that provide pattern control to as low a frequency as is practical given the other limitations of the project such as size restrictions, weight restrictions, budget restrictions, etc.

Not having a good idea of your specific gym layout, where seating typically is during sports uses, how that changes or is added to during events like VBS, etc., and also not knowing what your fire alarm system or assisted listening system requirements are it is hard for us to make specific recommendations. 

Your church really needs to talk to a local/regional company, consultant, or inspector who can talk to them about not just system needs but also code compliance requirements for things like fire alarm, seismic restraint (depending on where you are and where speakers will be mounted), and ADA.

Lee
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 06, 2017, 08:48:25 am
Can I take a guess at something.  The guy proposing these "speakercraft" speakers....is he on whatever board is calling the shots?  or is it his friend? Here is a good article which seems applicable to your situation...http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

If a speaker falls from getting hit by a ball, your installer has serious problems.  Show your people this video....  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d0NIqoIqBg



Also this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_uscBJn0p0
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 06, 2017, 08:51:47 am
I would approach the decision makers and ask if they have visited and auditioned another similar install by this company. Let the installer demonstrate why this is the best solution for you situation. My guess is they can't because they have never installed a system in a gym before.


Which begs the question to the decision makers in your Church. "Do we want to be the guinea pigs for this company that is reaching outside of their comfort zone?"
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on October 06, 2017, 10:06:30 am
Robert, 
If you can get someone at the church to listen to you and perhaps talk to other churches who have successfully integrated audio into a gym space you will find that the church needs to be talking to a consultant or a design-build company that specializes in professional sound reinforcement and that has successfully designed/integrated gym spaces.

The speakers and amplifier that were quoted to you are consumer, not professional grade and they are not suitable for the use that you have outlined. 

The speakers quoted will not be capable of getting loud enough to be used in a gym for typical sports level interactions/announcements.  They certainly would not get over 500 kids. 
Beyond that they lack pattern control and will, in my opinion, not help with voice intelligibility they will instead hurt voice intelligibility.  They will also, in the layout that you have described create a significant problem by not allowing enough gain before feedback.

Everything in sound reinforcement is about making compromises.  One of the first compromises in your gym is the gym.  Not the greatest acoustical space for spoken word intelligibility.  The acoustical challenges must be addressed by either treating the acoustical problems (not usually something a church or school will spend money on) or installing a sound system to try to minimize the worst of the problems created by the highly reverberant space.

In a highly reverberant space the best audio compromises for a sound system for speech intelligibility generally come from balancing a combination of specific wants.  Some of these wants are;
      Having as few sound sources (speakers) as possible in order to minimize additional sounds arriving at listeners at different/multiple times since multiple times of arrival decreases intelligibility.  You don't want multiple speakers covering a single person (as much as it can be avoided).
      Having each person covered by a speaker that is "close" to them.  This maximizes the relationship of the direct sound from the speaker getting to the listener before the reflections from the room get there.
      Having speakers that provide pattern control to as low a frequency as is practical given the other limitations of the project such as size restrictions, weight restrictions, budget restrictions, etc.

Not having a good idea of your specific gym layout, where seating typically is during sports uses, how that changes or is added to during events like VBS, etc., and also not knowing what your fire alarm system or assisted listening system requirements are it is hard for us to make specific recommendations. 

Your church really needs to talk to a local/regional company, consultant, or inspector who can talk to them about not just system needs but also code compliance requirements for things like fire alarm, seismic restraint (depending on where you are and where speakers will be mounted), and ADA.

Lee

We just spent $100K to pave our parking lot.  We used the top contractor in the area.  We also just spent $100K to redo all of our bathrooms.  It was a major upgrade compared to what we had.  For some reason we want to skimp on something that you really shouldnít.  Iím going to bring that up.  Also this gym is our backup auditorium in the event our main auditorium is unusable.  We have had to do this before. 

Iím actually considering recommending using Iconyx.  We could still mount on the back wall like they want.  I donít really have a problem coming up with recommendations as I have a good idea of what will work and what wonít.  I know who to call and get a hold of for these projects. 

This project was given to someone who keeps telling me he knows nothing about sound.  I keep reminding him Iíve been doing the sound at the church for over 13 years.  I do all the upgrades to our system and configurations and installs aside from hanging speakers.  In the 13 years Iíve studied and researched audio extensively.  It seems like it falls on deaf ears.  Itís really the mentality of ďIíve just got to have something before next VBSĒ.  They think itís going to be better.  However the current Yamaha SM101s we have been using would still blow those speakercrafts away.  Iíve been trying to tell them this.   
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Ray Aberle on October 06, 2017, 11:52:02 am
Yes, however I'm am the audio expert in the church. 13 years experience.  I've kind of been left out of this whole process.  I've butted into this project knowing that I'm the one the ultimately going to be looked at to fix the problem.
Robert,

The reason that I asked the question that I did is that you might have to "take a stand." Go to the church / 'whomever is leaving you out of this process' group, and state:
- These speakers are not going to suffice for this space
- The company proposing this system is not qualified to install speakers into our space (if this is, in fact, true)
- The end result is going to sound BAD. NOTHING I (you) can do on the board side will fix it.
- This is a poor use of our fiscal resources, and we are not being good stewards of the money to spend it in this manner
and finally...
- "I cannot support this decision, and if you choose to move forward, I will be stepping down as the audio lead for the church."

You do not want to be in a position where you're being blamed for this poor decision (and you know you will)! You absolutely need to make it clear that your participation will end should they put you in a position where you're going to be criticized constantly for something that is not your fault!

I would approach the decision makers and ask if they have visited and auditioned another similar install by this company. Let the installer demonstrate why this is the best solution for you situation. My guess is they can't because they have never installed a system in a gym before.

Which begs the question to the decision makers in your Church. "Do we want to be the guinea pigs for this company that is reaching outside of their comfort zone?"
I don't have a problem with being a guinea pig for someone... as long as it is clear from the beginning that this is the case. "This is new territory for us, so let's work and learn and grow together on this project. We'll do it at cost, because we're learning." But if they're making it sound like they have years of experience doing something, and it turns out they don't (and things end badly) then I would be irritated.

-Ray "Bein' Blunt" Aberle
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Lee Buckalew on October 06, 2017, 04:20:44 pm

Iím actually considering recommending using Iconyx.  We could still mount on the back wall like they want.  I donít really have a problem coming up with recommendations as I have a good idea of what will work and what wonít.  I know who to call and get a hold of for these projects. 


Once you are talking about that price range there are a number of viable options choosing the best one will depend on your specific goals which should be laid out ahead of time. 
I encourage you to work with someone who will model and/or demo for you what specific solutions would be like.  Don't fall into the trap of just listening to playback since you will also use this live.  Hook up live mics and instruments during a demo and see how the system actually behaves live.

Lee
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on October 07, 2017, 01:49:26 pm
Once you are talking about that price range there are a number of viable options choosing the best one will depend on your specific goals which should be laid out ahead of time. 
I encourage you to work with someone who will model and/or demo for you what specific solutions would be like.  Don't fall into the trap of just listening to playback since you will also use this live.  Hook up live mics and instruments during a demo and see how the system actually behaves live.

Lee

They are not really talking that price range yet.  It may just take spending $7500 on a defunct system for them to believe it's NOT actually going to work.   
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on October 07, 2017, 04:17:54 pm
I agree with Ray.  Line it out for them.  Let them know in a timely fashion that, should their decision be impractical, unworkable, a waste of funds (poor stewardship) or all of these, you cannot be involved in implementing their (durn fool) plan.  Wish them the best, do a 180 and remove yourself from the position of scapegoat.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Mike Caldwell on October 07, 2017, 07:00:58 pm
(4) EA-AMP-2D-150A - Amplifier
(8) ASM59101 - Speakers

These are the amps and speakers quoted.

I just did a quick search and looked up that amp and speakers.....WOW.
Those are so wrong for a gym sound system!!
I take it that is 4 amps and 8 speakers.

In addition to everything else that has been mentioned the first time one of those speakers gets nailed with a basketball the grill and maybe a driver will be caved in.

What else was quoted for a mixer, mics, processing, equipment rack, wall boxes or floor boxes for mic jacks.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on October 07, 2017, 11:48:29 pm
I just did a quick search and looked up that amp and speakers.....WOW.
Those are so wrong for a gym sound system!!
I take it that is 4 amps and 8 speakers.

In addition to everything else that has been mentioned the first time one of those speakers gets nailed with a basketball the grill and maybe a driver will be caved in.

What else was quoted for a mixer, mics, processing, equipment rack, wall boxes or floor boxes for mic jacks.

I just replaced the mixer last year.  We were using a 30 year old Peavey! I moved some of our older AT 3000 600 MHz mics to the gym.  We still have some time left with those.  When the mics break I will have to replace them totally.  The bodypacks for those systems are brand new.  Speakers and amps are the priority right now along with a permanent rack on the wall somewhere.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on October 07, 2017, 11:51:27 pm
I have attached a quick simple layout of the gym.  The bleachers go up to a height of about 5.5' and the stage area is 2' high.  The ceiling peaks at 28' and goes to 20' on the sides along the bleacher wall and the opposite parallel wall.  The center lines are the column centers.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on October 07, 2017, 11:57:24 pm
I have attached a quick simple layout of the gym.  The bleachers go up to a height of about 5.5' and the stage area is 2' high.  The ceiling peaks at 28' and goes to 20' on the sides along the bleacher wall and the opposite parallel wall.  The center lines are the column centers.

I had a thought about proposing a modular line array on either side of the stage area.  Possibly 2 to 3 modules stacked.  Build a insulated box with sound dampening materials.  Then suspend the speakers from the roof that extents past the gym walls.  Then put some sort of protective grill over the cutouts to keeps balls out.  Then cap it off with a speaker mesh material.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on October 11, 2017, 06:34:24 pm
I have uploaded some attachments that were sent to me.  He's proposed a center cluster of Varia at 120 deg along with a left and right two Varia hang.  Is this reasonable or could we use a more traditional point source speaker system.  We are looking at around $40K for this system.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 08, 2018, 09:41:14 pm
We are looking for new speakers for our gym. The only option that was given was to mount speakercraft cinema one profile aim speakers.  There will be 6 of these in three pairs.  Each pair I believe will be a stereo configuration. The gym is 100íx75íx28í. The whole goal in this was to get better speech reinforcement.  The company that quoted this system specializes in Home theatres. These speakers will be place behind the stage when we do VBS. We use 5-6 mics at any one time during VBS.  I personally think this system will be a disaster and isnít going to work.  Hanging speakers or speakers on a stand is not an option.  Iíve already told them this is going to be a feedback nightmare and trying to overcome 500 screaming kids isnít going to happen.  And the cost for this system is a little over $7K!

I've had to go back to the drawing board on this system.  I sat down and talked with my pastor about it.  After having a great conversation I got a better feel for what he wants.  We won't have the budget for an installed speaker system.  I've been looking at a couple of affordable portable speaker options.  Mainly the Bose F1 Model 812s and the Turbosound ip3000.  Both setups seem to have enough SPL.  We recently purchased a ip1000 for our junior church setup.  I was actually very impressed with the setup.  However I don't believe a pair of these will be able to handle the larger setup with running them too hard.  That's where I came up with the idea to run a pair of F1 812s or ip3000s.  I like the ip3000s for the cleaner install and price point.  If you go with the F1 812's it's about $1200 more total if you add the subs. 
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup - Edited - Turbosound IP3000 vs Bose F1 Model 812
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 09, 2018, 01:50:32 pm
Honestly I would take your budget and shop around for a few different integrators. You'll find one you like and they can suggest how to get the best system for the money you have.

Don't DIY this thing. It's not worth it, and you'll likely go over budget on things you didn't think about up front anyway....
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup - Edited - Turbosound IP3000 vs Bose F1 Model 812
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 09, 2018, 11:16:17 pm
Honestly I would take your budget and shop around for a few different integrators. You'll find one you like and they can suggest how to get the best system for the money you have.

Don't DIY this thing. It's not worth it, and you'll likely go over budget on things you didn't think about up front anyway....

I'm putting together a quote now.  For what I want to install there isn't much too it.  It's pretty much a portable system with a rack mounted on the wall instead of a rolling rack. There will be no amps or speaker wires.  Just power and xlr cables running to the rack.  For a really simple setup just roll the speaker out and plug a trusty SM 58 into it and go. 

For the setup I want it's going to cost around $8500.  That's either 2 ip3000s or 2 F1 812s; 6 Audio technia System 10 Pro mics, Power sequencer for equipment with remote outlets for speakers, 3 20 amp circuits, wall rack and cabling.  We already have a simple rack mixer that will be used. I may add a Nexia later on down the road. 

The system we have been running the last 14 years was hacked together from our old system from the old church.  We use the system once a year for the full setup.  The other times will be various events in the gym.  For most of the other events running a single speaker with a wired mic would suffice. 

To install a basic speaker setup would cost us between $14K-18K.  They are not going to spend that much.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 10, 2018, 09:51:50 am
  Both setups seem to have enough SPL.
There are 2 main things to consider.

SPL AND coverage.

In the previous maps, the coverage was not even close to being "acceptable".

But it depends on what you are really looking for and what expectations you/the Church have.

In any sort of proper system design, coverage is usually first, with SPL second.

In nightclubs, usually SPL comes first, and as long as the coverage is good in the middle, they are fine.

But others want the same coverage/SPL everywhere.

It all comes down to defining the expectations of the system.

If you don't define them ahead of time, how do you know if the system has meet them?

If all you want is a "loud noise at some places", then pretty much any system can provide that.  Most people want a bit more. 

That is where DESIGN comes into play
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 10, 2018, 11:35:32 am
There are 2 main things to consider.

SPL AND coverage.

In the previous maps, the coverage was not even close to being "acceptable".

But it depends on what you are really looking for and what expectations you/the Church have.

In any sort of proper system design, coverage is usually first, with SPL second.

In nightclubs, usually SPL comes first, and as long as the coverage is good in the middle, they are fine.

But others want the same coverage/SPL everywhere.

It all comes down to defining the expectations of the system.

If you don't define them ahead of time, how do you know if the system has meet them?

If all you want is a "loud noise at some places", then pretty much any system can provide that.  Most people want a bit more. 

That is where DESIGN comes into play

I wouldn't disagree with anything you said.  However the fact is we will need something this year.  They are not going to spend anywhere near to have someone design and install a "proper" sound system.  Let's remember also this is a once a year for a full week.  We don't have regular services in the gym in that setup. Is the portable type setup the best scenario?  No, but for the budget they want to spend it's I believe it's the best option.  The problem with the system before was coverage and even front to back coverage.  The front row was blasted out while the back was not great, but okay.  We also had many functional issues due to being hacked together.  I personally believe that with the advent of really good powered speakers has simplified things from the perspective of installation.  Also many have a simple DSP that offers protection to the speaker.  The portable column line array is a game changer as well.  From testing the ip1000 we purchased the coverage seems to be really good and even side to side and front to back to about 60'. From the center of the proposed column speaker it will need to cover about 20' on each side of the speaker and about 50' back. For the larger setup I believe we will need the more powerful ip3000s due to the fact that our noise floor is about 75dB when all the kids are in the gym just seated.  It can get as high as 90dB during rally time. 
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on February 13, 2018, 04:07:17 am
It might be worth taking a step back and looking at your usage cases.

You've mentioned one week a year where everything will get used. Will the system sit in storage the rest of the time, or will bits of it come out for smaller events?
If it was mine, I'd take a good look at buying something small for day-to-day use, and the one week per year where you need something bigger, see what rental options there are.

Chris
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on February 14, 2018, 12:28:55 pm
The front row was blasted out while the back was not great, but okay.  We also had many functional issues due to being hacked together.  I personally believe that with the advent of really good powered speakers has simplified things from the perspective of installation.  Also many have a simple DSP that offers protection to the speaker.  The portable column line array is a game changer as well.  From testing the ip1000 we purchased the coverage seems to be really good and even side to side and front to back to about 60'. From the center of the proposed column speaker it will need to cover about 20' on each side of the speaker and about 50' back. For the larger setup I believe we will need the more powerful ip3000s due to the fact that our noise floor is about 75dB when all the kids are in the gym just seated.  It can get as high as 90dB during rally time.

I agree that powered speakers have simplified install use-however not every issue can be fixed by electronics alone.  No matter what, a speaker that is not up high will still be significantly close to the front row than the back so the front row will be much louder-physics dictates that the distance from the source needs to be as even as possible to   It is easy for a room to sound fairly even in coverage when empty-and you don't need much volume to hear the content.  A room full of noisy teens is altogether different (I work with a similar situation every year at our church).  We have a well designed install with reaonably even coverage-but any discrepancies are highlighted in these situations.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 16, 2018, 12:06:24 am
It might be worth taking a step back and looking at your usage cases.

You've mentioned one week a year where everything will get used. Will the system sit in storage the rest of the time, or will bits of it come out for smaller events?
If it was mine, I'd take a good look at buying something small for day-to-day use, and the one week per year where you need something bigger, see what rental options there are.

Chris

I've sat down and put together a system that will work.  This system will scale down to the simplest of used to VBS which is very dynamic.  Even church services if we can't use our auditorium. It will pretty much run itself for most events.  It's a push button on/off sequence and turn a knob to increase or decrease the volume.  They wanted a permanent rack mounted on the wall that is locked. Our previous portable sound system rack was tipped over and busted by the roll up door between the gym and fellowship hall.  We don't really have the room to store the equipment away.  I've configured two options.  Each system will comprise of these common components:

(2-3) Dedicated 20 Amp circuits depending on speaker setup
(1) Lockable Rack Mount Rack
(1) Furman RS-2 Sequencing Switch
(1) Sequencing System
(1) Yamaha TF Rack
(3) Audio Technica System 10 Pro Dual Receivers
(4) Handheld mics
(2) Bodypack mics

Speaker system:

(1) Crown XTi 6002 paired with a single JBL CBT 1000+E with custom protecting cage

or

(2) Turbosound IP3000 portable speakers

A couple of the reasons I picked the TF rack was password protection and automixing.  I also like the fact that you don't need a computer to configure the device.  On the speaker selection flying speakers is NOT an option.  They want speakers on or in the wall.  I've already told them that the in wall speakers they had quoted originally wasn't going to work.  I'm also looking at the possibility of integrating this system specifically the mics and mixer into our junior church setup on one end of the gym.  We are currently using an Turbosound IP1000 with the old system rack.
Title: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 19, 2018, 01:52:19 pm
We are going to have a JBL CBT 1000+1000E installed in our gymnasium.  There are two options with one being obviously having the speaker rigged with aircraft cable to the ceiling structure.  However the other option is mounting to the wall with the supplied mounting brackets.  The speaker weight is right at 100lbs.  The wall constructions is metal studs with sheetrock. One either option the speaker will be within 2' of the wall.   The only concern is balls hitting the speaker.  I'm just curious as to which would be a better option for this speaker?  I've seen photos of the CBT 70J mounted on gym walls.  Just not sure if it's the safest option.  I've attached a Photoshop representation of where the speaker will go in the gym.  If mounting to the wall I thought about either having a unistrut option or anchoring some 3/4 birch plywood to the studs and using a toggle bolt option for the mounts.  If using unistrut it would need ot be like an 'I' formation.  The horizontal unistrut would be anchored to the studs and the vertical would be two parallel runs to anchor both wall brackets. Each mount has 6 M8 holes for mounting for a total of 12.
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on February 21, 2018, 12:42:24 am
Standard disclaimer: I am not a rigging engineer, nor am I a structural engineer. What I am about to say is not based on ANY load calculations, but is pure conjecture.

My gut reaction is that metal studs are NOT designed to support significant point loading. Maybe you could get away with toggle bolts, if they go through the flange of the stud. (I don't know though. Like I said, I'm not an engineer.) Either way, I'd be leery of mounting that weight to the studs. A possible alternative would be a backing plate on the opposite side of the wall, sandwiching the wall between the backing plate and the speaker mount with through bolts. Of course, that depends on what's on the other side of the wall.

If it was a wood stud wall, or a concrete wall, the advice would be different.

I think you have the potential for a cleaner installation with proper rigging from the ceiling structure (assuming the ceiling structure has been engineered or cleared by a structural engineer to support the weight).

As for errant balls, does that speaker have the option of a durable metal grille?
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 26, 2018, 12:58:41 am
Standard disclaimer: I am not a rigging engineer, nor am I a structural engineer. What I am about to say is not based on ANY load calculations, but is pure conjecture.

My gut reaction is that metal studs are NOT designed to support significant point loading. Maybe you could get away with toggle bolts, if they go through the flange of the stud. (I don't know though. Like I said, I'm not an engineer.) Either way, I'd be leery of mounting that weight to the studs. A possible alternative would be a backing plate on the opposite side of the wall, sandwiching the wall between the backing plate and the speaker mount with through bolts. Of course, that depends on what's on the other side of the wall.

If it was a wood stud wall, or a concrete wall, the advice would be different.

I think you have the potential for a cleaner installation with proper rigging from the ceiling structure (assuming the ceiling structure has been engineered or cleared by a structural engineer to support the weight).

As for errant balls, does that speaker have the option of a durable metal grille?

I had the man who managed our building project to take look at it.  He let his structural engineers look at the mounting and from their indication those 2X6 metal studs would be sufficient to hold that weight.  I'm anchoring a 3/4 Ply to the wall stretched over 3 studs.  The studs on that wall are a heavier gauge as well.  I will at the very least have one row of fasteners dead center of the stud.   For safety sake I may also have a safety cable properly rigged to the ceiling for added security and peace of mind for everyone else.  I got to thinking about it and realized that I'm going to be also anchoring a 250lb equipment rack to that same wall as well.  Fortunately the lower 8' section of that wall is already 3/4 plywood.  I could do like I originally planned and eliminate the drywall from that section and go 3/4 plywood in it's place.  Then paint it and dress it up around the edges. 
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 26, 2018, 12:04:11 pm
  The only concern is balls hitting the speaker.
Remember, in a gym, the loudspeaker ARE the targets for many kids.

They LOVE to see how much damage they can do to them with the balls-----

And if they can knock it loose-they are popular among their friends.

Just something to consider.
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 26, 2018, 01:59:11 pm
Remember, in a gym, the loudspeaker ARE the targets for many kids.

They LOVE to see how much damage they can do to them with the balls-----

And if they can knock it loose-they are popular among their friends.

Just something to consider.

Iím not worried about balls hitting it. However the mindset is this speaker is going to have the same thing happen to it that happened to our old particle board Yamahaís that got busted. They donít really see the difference between the two even though there is a vast difference. A baseball or golf ball might dent the front grill. Iíve seen the CBT 70j speakers mounted in gyms right behind basketball goals. 
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Scott Hibbard on February 26, 2018, 07:06:51 pm
We are going to have a JBL CBT 1000+1000E installed in our gymnasium.  There are two options with one being obviously having the speaker rigged with aircraft cable to the ceiling structure.  However the other option is mounting to the wall with the supplied mounting brackets.  The speaker weight is right at 100lbs.  The wall constructions is metal studs with sheetrock. One either option the speaker will be within 2' of the wall.   The only concern is balls hitting the speaker.  I'm just curious as to which would be a better option for this speaker?  I've seen photos of the CBT 70J mounted on gym walls.  Just not sure if it's the safest option.  I've attached a Photoshop representation of where the speaker will go in the gym.  If mounting to the wall I thought about either having a unistrut option or anchoring some 3/4 birch plywood to the studs and using a toggle bolt option for the mounts.  If using unistrut it would need ot be like an 'I' formation.  The horizontal unistrut would be anchored to the studs and the vertical would be two parallel runs to anchor both wall brackets. Each mount has 6 M8 holes for mounting for a total of 12.

Robert I installed (2) JBL CBT 200la's and subs on the wall of a large gymnasium.  The wall was concrete so I had no issues with structural integrity and also installed a safety cable.  However, I did have custom cages made for them because the speaker grills on the CBT's will not come out on the winning side of a basketball or volleyball coming into contact with it.  The grills for all speakers shown was something like $3k but will protect the speakers for many years to come.

Check pics here
http://scotthibbardaudio.com/projectportfolio/scotchplainsfanwoodhighschoolgym.html

ScottH
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 26, 2018, 09:41:27 pm
Robert I installed (2) JBL CBT 200la's and subs on the wall of a large gymnasium.  The wall was concrete so I had no issues with structural integrity and also installed a safety cable.  However, I did have custom cages made for them because the speaker grills on the CBT's will not come out on the winning side of a basketball or volleyball coming into contact with it.  The grills for all speakers shown was something like $3k but will protect the speakers for many years to come.

Check pics here
http://scotthibbardaudio.com/projectportfolio/scotchplainsfanwoodhighschoolgym.html

ScottH

Thanks for the insight!  I have considered a cage though. The cages you have look awesome! I would definitely be worried with those bracket for the 200LAs.
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 26, 2018, 09:44:14 pm
Robert I installed (2) JBL CBT 200la's and subs on the wall of a large gymnasium.  The wall was concrete so I had no issues with structural integrity and also installed a safety cable.  However, I did have custom cages made for them because the speaker grills on the CBT's will not come out on the winning side of a basketball or volleyball coming into contact with it.  The grills for all speakers shown was something like $3k but will protect the speakers for many years to come.

Check pics here
http://scotthibbardaudio.com/projectportfolio/scotchplainsfanwoodhighschoolgym.html

ScottH

What is the GBF like with these?
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Scott Hibbard on February 26, 2018, 10:31:55 pm
What is the GBF like with these?

Robert,

GBF on the CBT200's is nothing short amazing!  You can literally stand right in front of the speaker with a mic fairly wide open and produces no feedback.  As a safety, I always install a DSP with AFS (in this case dbx 220i).  This past weekend I just installed CBT200LA's and CBT100LA's in a very large church and again, absolutely no feedback with 3-4 mics open during the entire service (lapels, headworn, podium etc.)  This was even as I toggled AFS on/off during tuning sessions.  Check out the pics here: http://scotthibbardaudio.com/projectportfolio/stphilomenaschurch.html

Look carefully at the Crucifix - there you will see the CBT200LA's flanking left and right.  To the extreme l/r you will see the CBT100LA's as side fill.  The coverage front to back is impressive, and vocal clarity quite high. 

ScottH
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Scott Hibbard on February 26, 2018, 10:35:10 pm
What is the GBF like with these?

Robert there is a 30 sec. video clip of the 200LA's in the gym at the top of this page:
http://scotthibbardaudio.com/projectportfolio/scotchplainsfanwoodhighschoolgym.html

ScottH
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 26, 2018, 11:18:46 pm
Robert,

GBF on the CBT200's is nothing short amazing!  You can literally stand right in front of the speaker with a mic fairly wide open and produces no feedback.  As a safety, I always install a DSP with AFS (in this case dbx 220i).  This past weekend I just installed CBT200LA's and CBT100LA's in a very large church and again, absolutely no feedback with 3-4 mics open during the entire service (lapels, headworn, podium etc.)  This was even as I toggled AFS on/off during tuning sessions.  Check out the pics here: http://scotthibbardaudio.com/projectportfolio/stphilomenaschurch.html

Look carefully at the Crucifix - there you will see the CBT200LA's flanking left and right.  To the extreme l/r you will see the CBT100LA's as side fill.  The coverage front to back is impressive, and vocal clarity quite high. 

ScottH

I've attached a photoshoped photo of where the speaker will go and the SPL mapping from the CBT Calculator.  This system is a mono configuration with speech reinforcement in mind.  I'm only really targeting from mid court back to the bleachers. That was a challenge having to cover nearly 30 feet just to start the coverage area from the wall.  It's approximately 71' total from speaker to the back of the bleachers.  I was quite amazed with the calculations provided.  I'm only covering 30' from the center of the speaker side to side.  I may be stretching it a bit, but for our purpose and from what I've calculated it should do well.  Seeing how they didn't want speakers hanging all over and didn't want to spend $20K+ this was the only option that fit the criteria.  I'm actually excited to see what this system does.  I've been very impressed as others have with the Turbosound IP1000 we use for junior church.  I did consider add a sub, but held off for now.  We don't use bands or anything.  It's just a keyboard and the videos we play for the skits along with rally time. 
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 26, 2018, 11:22:11 pm
I've attached a photoshoped photo of where the speaker will go and the SPL mapping from the CBT Calculator.  This system is a mono configuration with speech reinforcement in mind.  I'm only really targeting from mid court back to the bleachers. That was a challenge having to cover nearly 30 feet just to start the coverage area from the wall.  It's approximately 71' total from speaker to the back of the bleachers.  I was quite amazed with the calculations provided.  I'm only covering 30' from the center of the speaker side to side.  I may be stretching it a bit, but for our purpose and from what I've calculated it should do well.  Seeing how they didn't want speakers hanging all over and didn't want to spend $20K+ this was the only option that fit the criteria.  I'm actually excited to see what this system does.  I've been very impressed as others have with the Turbosound IP1000 we use for junior church.  I did consider add a sub, but held off for now.  We don't use bands or anything.  It's just a keyboard and the videos we play for the skits along with rally time.
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 26, 2018, 11:34:58 pm
Robert,

GBF on the CBT200's is nothing short amazing!  You can literally stand right in front of the speaker with a mic fairly wide open and produces no feedback.  As a safety, I always install a DSP with AFS (in this case dbx 220i).  This past weekend I just installed CBT200LA's and CBT100LA's in a very large church and again, absolutely no feedback with 3-4 mics open during the entire service (lapels, headworn, podium etc.)  This was even as I toggled AFS on/off during tuning sessions.  Check out the pics here: http://scotthibbardaudio.com/projectportfolio/stphilomenaschurch.html

Look carefully at the Crucifix - there you will see the CBT200LA's flanking left and right.  To the extreme l/r you will see the CBT100LA's as side fill.  The coverage front to back is impressive, and vocal clarity quite high. 

ScottH

In the Hanover Park project are those the 70Js or 1000s?
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Scott Hibbard on February 27, 2018, 11:37:56 am
In the Hanover Park project are those the 70Js or 1000s?

Hanover Park is CBT70J-1/70JE-1.  The 1000 didn't exist when I did that install.

ScottH
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on February 27, 2018, 04:09:11 pm
Hanover Park is CBT70J-1/70JE-1.  The 1000 didn't exist when I did that install.

ScottH

Thanks for all your insight! It has been very helpful and reassuring that the right decision was made.
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on March 01, 2018, 10:30:37 pm
We are going to have a JBL CBT 1000+1000E installed in our gymnasium.  There are two options with one being obviously having the speaker rigged with aircraft cable to the ceiling structure.  However the other option is mounting to the wall with the supplied mounting brackets.  The speaker weight is right at 100lbs.  The wall constructions is metal studs with sheetrock. One either option the speaker will be within 2' of the wall.   The only concern is balls hitting the speaker.  I'm just curious as to which would be a better option for this speaker?  I've seen photos of the CBT 70J mounted on gym walls.  Just not sure if it's the safest option.  I've attached a Photoshop representation of where the speaker will go in the gym.  If mounting to the wall I thought about either having a unistrut option or anchoring some 3/4 birch plywood to the studs and using a toggle bolt option for the mounts.  If using unistrut it would need ot be like an 'I' formation.  The horizontal unistrut would be anchored to the studs and the vertical would be two parallel runs to anchor both wall brackets. Each mount has 6 M8 holes for mounting for a total of 12.

I've contacted Polar Focus about their mounting solutions.  They have a similar custom mount for the 70j.  Pretty much theirs would entail rigging chain and a spanner bar across two purlins.  Then a custom designed yoke to specifically find the 1000 + 1000E speaker. 
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on March 12, 2018, 10:16:49 pm
I've sat down and put together a system that will work.  This system will scale down to the simplest of used to VBS which is very dynamic.  Even church services if we can't use our auditorium. It will pretty much run itself for most events.  It's a push button on/off sequence and turn a knob to increase or decrease the volume.  They wanted a permanent rack mounted on the wall that is locked. Our previous portable sound system rack was tipped over and busted by the roll up door between the gym and fellowship hall.  We don't really have the room to store the equipment away.  I've configured two options.  Each system will comprise of these common components:

(2-3) Dedicated 20 Amp circuits depending on speaker setup
(1) Lockable Rack Mount Rack
(1) Furman RS-2 Sequencing Switch
(1) Sequencing System
(1) Yamaha TF Rack
(3) Audio Technica System 10 Pro Dual Receivers
(4) Handheld mics
(2) Bodypack mics

Speaker system:

(1) Crown XTi 6002 paired with a single JBL CBT 1000+E with custom protecting cage

or

(2) Turbosound IP3000 portable speakers

A couple of the reasons I picked the TF rack was password protection and automixing.  I also like the fact that you don't need a computer to configure the device.  On the speaker selection flying speakers is NOT an option.  They want speakers on or in the wall.  I've already told them that the in wall speakers they had quoted originally wasn't going to work.  I'm also looking at the possibility of integrating this system specifically the mics and mixer into our junior church setup on one end of the gym.  We are currently using an Turbosound IP1000 with the old system rack.

Just to follow up.  All the equipment has been installed except for the speaker.  We are currently having Polar Focus fabricate a custom mounting kit.  So far everything has turned out fantastic! I want to thank everyone for all of their input and advice.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Nathan Riddle on March 12, 2018, 10:59:50 pm
They are afraid of speakers falling from being hit by balls.

Show them this video:
https://youtu.be/0d0NIqoIqBg

---

And I just realized this was an older thread... hah.

Thanks for the followup.  :)
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on March 12, 2018, 11:54:01 pm
Show them this video:
https://youtu.be/0d0NIqoIqBg

---

And I just realized this was an older thread... hah.

Thanks for the followup.  :)

The same company that designed that rigging is designing our yoke.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 03, 2018, 09:56:14 pm
I've sat down and put together a system that will work.  This system will scale down to the simplest of used to VBS which is very dynamic.  Even church services if we can't use our auditorium. It will pretty much run itself for most events.  It's a push button on/off sequence and turn a knob to increase or decrease the volume.  They wanted a permanent rack mounted on the wall that is locked. Our previous portable sound system rack was tipped over and busted by the roll up door between the gym and fellowship hall.  We don't really have the room to store the equipment away.  I've configured two options.  Each system will comprise of these common components:

(2-3) Dedicated 20 Amp circuits depending on speaker setup
(1) Lockable Rack Mount Rack
(1) Furman RS-2 Sequencing Switch
(1) Sequencing System
(1) Yamaha TF Rack
(3) Audio Technica System 10 Pro Dual Receivers
(4) Handheld mics
(2) Bodypack mics

Speaker system:

(1) Crown XTi 6002 paired with a single JBL CBT 1000+E with custom protecting cage

or

(2) Turbosound IP3000 portable speakers

A couple of the reasons I picked the TF rack was password protection and automixing.  I also like the fact that you don't need a computer to configure the device.  On the speaker selection flying speakers is NOT an option.  They want speakers on or in the wall.  I've already told them that the in wall speakers they had quoted originally wasn't going to work.  I'm also looking at the possibility of integrating this system specifically the mics and mixer into our junior church setup on one end of the gym.  We are currently using an Turbosound IP1000 with the old system rack.

I have attached some images of the completed install of the gym sound system.  I will have to say that I'm very impressed with the CBT 1000 + 1000E setup.  It's very loud and very clear with impressive GBF.  Currently I have the speaker running Point on the top and broad on the lower portion.  I also selected the speech mode which boost the 1K-4K internally in the speaker.  I think it actually helps control the low end with more clear vocals.     
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 03, 2018, 10:05:52 pm
Robert I installed (2) JBL CBT 200la's and subs on the wall of a large gymnasium.  The wall was concrete so I had no issues with structural integrity and also installed a safety cable.  However, I did have custom cages made for them because the speaker grills on the CBT's will not come out on the winning side of a basketball or volleyball coming into contact with it.  The grills for all speakers shown was something like $3k but will protect the speakers for many years to come.

Check pics here
http://scotthibbardaudio.com/projectportfolio/scotchplainsfanwoodhighschoolgym.html

ScottH

This is what we came up with from Polar Focus.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup - Project Completed
Post by: Keith Broughton on May 04, 2018, 06:46:09 am
Looks good!
However... I see wireless anrennas in a steel box.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup - Project Completed
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 04, 2018, 10:51:08 am
Looks good!
However... I see wireless anrennas in a steel box.

Yes. However for most events the rack will be open. Even when the rack is closed the mic use will be next to the rack. I could move those modules outside the box if needed.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 04, 2018, 12:50:26 pm
I have attached some images of the completed install of the gym sound system.  I will have to say that I'm very impressed with the CBT 1000 + 1000E setup.  It's very loud and very clear with impressive GBF.  Currently I have the speaker running Point on the top and broad on the lower portion.  I also selected the speech mode which boost the 1K-4K internally in the speaker.  I think it actually helps control the low end with more clear vocals.     

Why not just move the antennas outside the rack?

Is that top cable power?
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on May 04, 2018, 12:56:50 pm
This is what we came up with from Polar Focus.

I'm not a rigger or an engineer, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. It's somewhat random thoughts, and genuine good engineering advice will be based on actual load calculations.

I don't like the way the chains are holding that up. I can't see detail well, but it doesn't look like welded chain. The links are not designed for side loading, which is what happens when you drape them over the purlin that way. Side loaded, it can cause the link to open. Secondly, it doesn't look like chain that's rated "for overhead lifting." Normally chain is rated with a safety factor of around 2:1 (I think) -- where the working load is half the breaking strength. For overhead lifting, you need about a 10:1 safety ratio: the working load rating is 1/10 the breaking strength.

I would expect to see a properly engineered support use welded chain rated for overhead lifting, cables, or steel rods. Any of these support materials would be longitudinally loaded; no side forces. The attachment to the purlin would be by means of a proper purlin clamp or holes drilled according to the engineer's specifications. Mounting eyes would be forged, closed eyes with specific ratings for side loading.

Properly rigging the speaker would be easy and not terribly expensive. The most expensive part of the process would be getting good design from a structural engineer or certified rigger.

I wasn't there. I don't know everything you do. It's just that, based on the pictures, it looks a little suspect.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on May 04, 2018, 01:00:42 pm

Is that top cable power?

To pick a nit... with the power cable fastened to the wall like that, would it be considered "permanently installed wiring"? And, since SO cord isn't listed for permanent install, is there a violation here?

(Not that it should be a problem, mind you, but could an inspector have something to say about it?)
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 04, 2018, 01:22:28 pm
To pick a nit... with the power cable fastened to the wall like that, would it be considered "permanently installed wiring"? And, since SO cord isn't listed for permanent install, is there a violation here?

(Not that it should be a problem, mind you, but could an inspector have something to say about it?)

Yes, it's permanent and yes it is a safety problem.  Needs to be in EMT (thin wall non threaded conduit), all the way.  Would have to see the whole run to comment on the most dangerous parts.  Those metal conduit straps holding it in place is a good place to start complaining.



Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 04, 2018, 01:27:25 pm
I'm not a rigger or an engineer, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. It's somewhat random thoughts, and genuine good engineering advice will be based on actual load calculations.

I don't like the way the chains are holding that up. I can't see detail well, but it doesn't look like welded chain. The links are not designed for side loading, which is what happens when you drape them over the purlin that way. Side loaded, it can cause the link to open. Secondly, it doesn't look like chain that's rated "for overhead lifting." Normally chain is rated with a safety factor of around 2:1 (I think) -- where the working load is half the breaking strength. For overhead lifting, you need about a 10:1 safety ratio: the working load rating is 1/10 the breaking strength.

I would expect to see a properly engineered support use welded chain rated for overhead lifting, cables, or steel rods. Any of these support materials would be longitudinally loaded; no side forces. The attachment to the purlin would be by means of a proper purlin clamp or holes drilled according to the engineer's specifications. Mounting eyes would be forged, closed eyes with specific ratings for side loading.

Properly rigging the speaker would be easy and not terribly expensive. The most expensive part of the process would be getting good design from a structural engineer or certified rigger.

I wasn't there. I don't know everything you do. It's just that, based on the pictures, it looks a little suspect.

I would have put the speaker wire in conduit also.  Agree the chains are not acceptable.

Title: Re: Gym speaker setup - Project Completed
Post by: Rob Spence on May 04, 2018, 01:56:47 pm
Yes, it's permanent and yes it is a safety problem.  Needs to be in conduit, all the way.  Would have to see the whole run to comment on the most dangerous parts.  Those metal conduit straps holding it in place is a good place to start complaining.

EMT is what you mean I think Scott. Raceway, yes. Conduit, I donít think is required. The clips are, in fact 1/2Ē EMT clips and not for use with cords.


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Title: Re: Gym speaker setup - Project Completed
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 04, 2018, 02:35:04 pm
EMT is what you mean I think Scott. Raceway, yes. Conduit, I donít think is required. The clips are, in fact 1/2Ē EMT clips and not for use with cords.


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We know it as EMT but even the big box stores sell it as conduit so I choose my words for that reason.  Updated post for clarity, thanks.
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup - Project Completed
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on May 04, 2018, 04:02:33 pm
EMT is what you mean I think Scott. Raceway, yes. Conduit, I donít think is required. The clips are, in fact 1/2Ē EMT clips and not for use with cords.

Those clips look too small for EMT. I believe they are for MC or MC-lite cable (the metal flex stuff with the wire already inside). A person could probably get away with running MC-lite or flex (if not "subject to physical damage" per code) from the existing receptacle box to a receptacle inside the cabinet. (If it could be subject to damage, then it has to be at least EMT or otherwise protected.)

http://www.ecmweb.com/contractor/working-metal-clad-cable-and-emt
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 04, 2018, 06:42:02 pm
I'm not a rigger or an engineer, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. It's somewhat random thoughts, and genuine good engineering advice will be based on actual load calculations.

I don't like the way the chains are holding that up. I can't see detail well, but it doesn't look like welded chain. The links are not designed for side loading, which is what happens when you drape them over the purlin that way. Side loaded, it can cause the link to open. Secondly, it doesn't look like chain that's rated "for overhead lifting." Normally chain is rated with a safety factor of around 2:1 (I think) -- where the working load is half the breaking strength. For overhead lifting, you need about a 10:1 safety ratio: the working load rating is 1/10 the breaking strength.

I would expect to see a properly engineered support use welded chain rated for overhead lifting, cables, or steel rods. Any of these support materials would be longitudinally loaded; no side forces. The attachment to the purlin would be by means of a proper purlin clamp or holes drilled according to the engineer's specifications. Mounting eyes would be forged, closed eyes with specific ratings for side loading.

Properly rigging the speaker would be easy and not terribly expensive. The most expensive part of the process would be getting good design from a structural engineer or certified rigger.

I wasn't there. I don't know everything you do. It's just that, based on the pictures, it looks a little suspect.

Polar Focus supplied all of the hardware for the rigging.  That was their rigging design.   
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 04, 2018, 06:46:38 pm
I would have put the speaker wire in conduit also.  Agree the chains are not acceptable.

This is what was supplied and recommended for our application.

http://www.polarfocus.com/catalog/family/rigging-chain-sling-kits-16/#family-header (http://www.polarfocus.com/catalog/family/rigging-chain-sling-kits-16/#family-header)
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup - Project Completed
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 04, 2018, 06:51:42 pm
Those clips look too small for EMT. I believe they are for MC or MC-lite cable (the metal flex stuff with the wire already inside). A person could probably get away with running MC-lite or flex (if not "subject to physical damage" per code) from the existing receptacle box to a receptacle inside the cabinet. (If it could be subject to damage, then it has to be at least EMT or otherwise protected.)

http://www.ecmweb.com/contractor/working-metal-clad-cable-and-emt

The wire that was used is the same wire used to connect various machinery components together.  The only thing that will ever hit it are balls.  The sheathing was extremely hard to cut with a sharp knife.  I consulted with the electrician about doing that. 
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 04, 2018, 07:38:54 pm
Yes, it's permanent and yes it is a safety problem.  Needs to be in EMT (thin wall non threaded conduit), all the way.  Would have to see the whole run to comment on the most dangerous parts.  Those metal conduit straps holding it in place is a good place to start complaining.

What's the safety problem?  This wire is 6+ feet above the floor.  Unless someone decides to bring and axe in and start hacking away at the walls above head level we might have a problem.  The only thing that will hit that receptacle or wire are balls. Those metal straps aren't going to cut that sheathing.  The wire is clamped where it enters the rack as to not be pulled out of the rack.  Both ends are terminated with 20 amp plugs on the 10/3 wire. Btw that sheathing on that wire is extremely tough.  However with that being said I have already considered having a hardwire run into that receptacle box to terminate inside the rack to plug  the power sequencer into.  If the wire had be coming from the bottom I could see the concern with the tables being placed underneath the rack.   
Title: Gym speaker setup - Project Completed
Post by: Rob Spence on May 04, 2018, 09:10:04 pm
What's the safety problem?  This wire is 6+ feet above the floor.  Unless someone decides to bring and axe in and start hacking away at the walls above head level we might have a problem.  The only thing that will hit that receptacle or wire are balls. Those metal straps aren't going to cut that sheathing.  The wire is clamped where it enters the rack as to not be pulled out of the rack.  Both ends are terminated with 20 amp plugs on the 10/3 wire. Btw that sheathing on that wire is extremely tough.  However with that being said I have already considered having a hardwire run into that receptacle box to terminate inside the rack to plug  the power sequencer into.  If the wire had be coming from the bottom I could see the concern with the tables being placed underneath the rack.

It doesnít matter what you or I think about how rugged things are. There is a code for wiring that is backed by laws. Generally it is based on the National Electrical Code (NEC) which is written by insurance companies and often adopted in part or completely by local cities, towns or states and made law.

There are sections of the code for installed equipment. There are also sections for public buildings.
The requirements may seem silly but usually they have been well thought out.

In this case, sure, it seems that the only threat is basketballs but what about the bozo that leans a metal ladder against it?
How about the delinquent who thinks itís funny to carve it up with a pocket knife?



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Title: Re: Gym speaker setup - Project Completed
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 04, 2018, 09:28:21 pm
It doesn’t matter what you or I think about how rugged things are. There is a code for wiring that is backed by laws. Generally it is based on the National Electrical Code (NEC) which is written by insurance companies and often adopted in part or completely by local cities, towns or states and made law.

There are sections of the code for installed equipment. There are also sections for public buildings.
The requirements may seem silly but usually they have been well thought out.

In this case, sure, it seems that the only threat is basketballs but what about the bozo that leans a metal ladder against it?
How about the delinquent who thinks it’s funny to carve it up with a pocket knife?



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I say have fun putting a ladder there with the equipment rack sticking out.  As to the delinquent carving it up with a pocks` et knife there are plenty of exposed outlets to stick objects in that are far more accessible. I consulted with the electrician who installed the outlet. 
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup - Project Completed
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 04, 2018, 10:03:26 pm
It doesnít matter what you or I think about how rugged things are. There is a code for wiring that is backed by laws. Generally it is based on the National Electrical Code (NEC) which is written by insurance companies and often adopted in part or completely by local cities, towns or states and made law.

There are sections of the code for installed equipment. There are also sections for public buildings.
The requirements may seem silly but usually they have been well thought out.

In this case, sure, it seems that the only threat is basketballs but what about the bozo that leans a metal ladder against it?
How about the delinquent who thinks itís funny to carve it up with a pocket knife?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

The wiring in use is 10/3 SOOW wiring.  It's perfectly acceptable for this kind of use.  All it does is get power from the outlet to the sequencer.  The cord on the sequencer would be far more susceptible to damage. It's clamped to the rack to keep it from being pulled out.  The only reason the straps are there is to keep it near the wall and to further keep from pulling and stressing the wire.  It's technically not permanently attached as there is space around the strap and the wire.  It's there more to contain it.  Some might interpret it as permanently attached, but it's my opinion that it actually makes for a safer install than to leave it hanging loose.  I wanted to ability to unplug the equipment without having to open the rack. 
Title: Re: Gym speaker setup - Project Completed
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 04, 2018, 10:36:26 pm
The wiring in use is 10/3 SOOW wiring.  It's perfectly acceptable for this kind of use.  All it does is get power from the outlet to the sequencer.  The cord on the sequencer would be far more susceptible to damage. It's clamped to the rack to keep it from being pulled out.  The only reason the straps are there is to keep it near the wall and to further keep from pulling and stressing the wire.  It's technically not permanently attached as there is space around the strap and the wire.  It's there more to contain it.  Some might interpret it as permanently attached, but it's my opinion that it actually makes for a safer install than to leave it hanging loose.  I wanted to ability to unplug the equipment without having to open the rack.

(https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2003-01-16)

"(H) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are designed to permit removal for maintenance and repair. [Emphasis added.]"

According to this the wire is perfectly acceptable for this use.  Take this thing off the wall and put wheels on it and nobody would seem to have a problem with it. It can be removed for repair or maintenance and not a permanent structure.  I think there is a lot of misinterpretation of the NEC in this post. However the latter would IMHO be more susceptible to damage as the frequent setup could prematurely wear our the wire and connections.  Nobody wold give the flexible wire a second thought with the second scenario.  One of the really irritating things about a forum like this is that "nobody does it the right way except for me".  I enjoy reading and learning in this forum, but it can be irritating at times. 
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 04, 2018, 10:55:55 pm
I'm not a rigger or an engineer, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. It's somewhat random thoughts, and genuine good engineering advice will be based on actual load calculations.

I don't like the way the chains are holding that up. I can't see detail well, but it doesn't look like welded chain. The links are not designed for side loading, which is what happens when you drape them over the purlin that way. Side loaded, it can cause the link to open. Secondly, it doesn't look like chain that's rated "for overhead lifting." Normally chain is rated with a safety factor of around 2:1 (I think) -- where the working load is half the breaking strength. For overhead lifting, you need about a 10:1 safety ratio: the working load rating is 1/10 the breaking strength.

I would expect to see a properly engineered support use welded chain rated for overhead lifting, cables, or steel rods. Any of these support materials would be longitudinally loaded; no side forces. The attachment to the purlin would be by means of a proper purlin clamp or holes drilled according to the engineer's specifications. Mounting eyes would be forged, closed eyes with specific ratings for side loading.

Properly rigging the speaker would be easy and not terribly expensive. The most expensive part of the process would be getting good design from a structural engineer or certified rigger.

I wasn't there. I don't know everything you do. It's just that, based on the pictures, it looks a little suspect.

The company that we ordered the mount from designs the rigging from the ceiling attachment to the speaker mount.  The only thing they don't design is the building and the speaker.  Everything else is sold as a complete kit.  Even down the safety wire for securing the shackle pins. The chain is Grade 100 welded chain rated for overhead lifting.  The engineer specified the chain over the purlin.  Apparently they specify this quite often. One of the reasons we went with this setup was to accommodate the joining of the two speaker modules.  The mounting brackets and connection brackets supplied by JBL were not up to my standards for this installation.  Probably would have been fine in an auditorium, but not for a gym. Everything was installed in accordance to their specifications. Like I said earlier this was a complete kit.  All of the hardware was forged Chicago Hardware.   
Title: Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on May 05, 2018, 12:01:20 am
The company that we ordered the mount from designs the rigging from the ceiling attachment to the speaker mount.  The only thing they don't design is the building and the speaker.  Everything else is sold as a complete kit.  Even down the safety wire for securing the shackle pins. The chain is Grade 100 welded chain rated for overhead lifting.  The engineer specified the chain over the purlin.  Apparently they specify this quite often. One of the reasons we went with this setup was to accommodate the joining of the two speaker modules.  The mounting brackets and connection brackets supplied by JBL were not up to my standards for this installation.  Probably would have been fine in an auditorium, but not for a gym. Everything was installed in accordance to their specifications. Like I said earlier this was a complete kit.  All of the hardware was forged Chicago Hardware.   

I am happy to read this.

From the pictures you posted, it looked like a typical amateur install, and I didn't see anything to the contrary when I posted that. You might've said "it came from so-and-so" but there are a lot of so-and-sos out there that don't have a clue.

With a forum like this, an untrained person could come on here, see the photos, and try to replicate that with hardware store chain and fasteners, not knowing that it is actual engineered rigging with purpose-made hardware. By stating what you've said, you alleviate a lot of concern for doing things right.

Many people on this forum are concerned with doing things right and according to codes not to be pricks, but because they are genuinely concerned for safety and protecting you from legal liability.
Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 05, 2018, 03:00:43 am
(https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2003-01-16)

"(H) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are designed to permit removal for maintenance and repair. [Emphasis added.]"

According to this the wire is perfectly acceptable for this use.  Take this thing off the wall and put wheels on it and nobody would seem to have a problem with it. It can be removed for repair or maintenance and not a permanent structure.  I think there is a lot of misinterpretation of the NEC in this post. However the latter would IMHO be more susceptible to damage as the frequent setup could prematurely wear our the wire and connections.  Nobody wold give the flexible wire a second thought with the second scenario.  One of the really irritating things about a forum like this is that "nobody does it the right way except for me".  I enjoy reading and learning in this forum, but it can be irritating at times.
Well that's your take.  I have speced and managed the installation of hundreds of network cabinets in countless school gyms and cafeteria's.  We had a national eRate SPIN code and never had to do a gig twice.  We put the UTP in one pipe and the power in another.  It's what the contract said, it's what the district wanted and the inspector never red tagged us. 

I hate to say it but the install doesn't look like a pro did it.  It is not sloppy or anything like that.

The bottom line is non-seasoned installers don't know how to bend pipe.  Pro's can put pipe up like no tomorrow and use the same THHN they pulled for everything else. 

I am not a rigger so I can't comment on that.

Sorry if the comments offended.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 05, 2018, 10:13:37 am
Well that's your take.  I have speced and managed the installation of hundreds of network cabinets in countless school gyms and cafeteria's.  We had a national eRate SPIN code and never had to do a gig twice.  We put the UTP in one pipe and the power in another.  It's what the contract said, it's what the district wanted and the inspector never red tagged us. 

I hate to say it but the install doesn't look like a pro did it.  It is not sloppy or anything like that.

The bottom line is non-seasoned installers don't know how to bend pipe.  Pro's can put pipe up like no tomorrow and use the same THHN they pulled for everything else. 

I am not a rigger so I can't comment on that.

Sorry if the comments offended.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Like I said earlier put wheels on it and set it on the ground and all of the sudden that wire ďisnít a problemĒ.
Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 05, 2018, 11:07:01 am
Well that's your take.  I have speced and managed the installation of hundreds of network cabinets in countless school gyms and cafeteria's.  We had a national eRate SPIN code and never had to do a gig twice.  We put the UTP in one pipe and the power in another.  It's what the contract said, it's what the district wanted and the inspector never red tagged us. 

I hate to say it but the install doesn't look like a pro did it.  It is not sloppy or anything like that.

The bottom line is non-seasoned installers don't know how to bend pipe.  Pro's can put pipe up like no tomorrow and use the same THHN they pulled for everything else. 

I am not a rigger so I can't comment on that.

Sorry if the comments offended.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

We tried to bid out this project and nobody wanted it apparently.  The only one that contacted us back wanted to put in inadequate mid-grade home theatre components.  You can refer back to the original post for that disaster. We had to have an adequate system by Mid June for our VBS.  I took this project and managed it.  I had to subcontract some of the work.  All in all the install went fairly smooth.  Fortunately I had the time off to complete most of the work early on. 
Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 05, 2018, 01:51:23 pm
Like I said earlier put wheels on it and set it on the ground and all of the sudden that wire ďisnít a problemĒ.

Yes, that's true.  I don't see how it gives you lattitude to mount the cabinet and feed it the way you want.

There are common practices that are overkill and some that you wonder what they were thinking.  If I do things to code and common practice I have the best chance that 12 reasonable people will not find my actions negligent.

Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 05, 2018, 05:01:41 pm
Yes, that's true.  I don't see how it gives you lattitude to mount the cabinet and feed it the way you want.

There are common practices that are overkill and some that you wonder what they were thinking.  If I do things to code and common practice I have the best chance that 12 reasonable people will not find my actions negligent.

I called the electrician and asked about this specifically. When they installed the outlet the rack and equipment was already installed. They were well aware of the usage and placement.  I trust their judgment. At some point flexible wire will be used to supply power to the rack and equipment. Itís not like flexible wire was used to power an installed outlet.  I wasnít about to modify the wire on the sequencer and void the warranty. There is no room for a plug inside the rack. The only other option was to create a flexible extension with proper plugs on each end.
Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 05, 2018, 10:55:01 pm
You don't cut the cord you put a quad box inside the enclosure (the protected zone).

Most electricians have little datacomm or audio experience

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Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 06, 2018, 02:04:29 pm
You don't cut the cord you put a quad box inside the enclosure (the protected zone).

Most electricians have little datacomm or audio experience

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I will call them back and see what needs to be done about it.
Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Rob Spence on May 06, 2018, 03:43:29 pm
I called the electrician and asked about this specifically. When they installed the outlet the rack and equipment was already installed. They were well aware of the usage and placement.  I trust their judgment. At some point flexible wire will be used to supply power to the rack and equipment. Itís not like flexible wire was used to power an installed outlet.  I wasnít about to modify the wire on the sequencer and void the warranty. There is no room for a plug inside the rack. The only other option was to create a flexible extension with proper plugs on each end.

If there is no room in the rack, then the rack is the wrong size. As Scott said, run EMT down from the box above (no bends needed) and into the rack where a 4Ē shallow box and outlet or a plugmold could be placed.



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Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 06, 2018, 06:57:28 pm
If there is no room in the rack, then the rack is the wrong size. As Scott said, run EMT down from the box above (no bends needed) and into the rack where a 4Ē shallow box and outlet or a plugmold could be placed.



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Rob is spot on.

One other item (I reviewed the pictures) nothing screams amatuer like a consumer grade wireless.  Poor performance sitting on top of the rack.

I would suggest while the EMT is being installed you put another length in to a quad box at least 24" from any significant metal.  Mount another quad box and use a Ubiquity Uni-fi Pro.  It the best sub $100 access point on the market and it has all the big boy features (central management, vlan trunk support and multi-SSID capabilities).

 
Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 06, 2018, 08:29:59 pm
Rob is spot on.

One other item (I reviewed the pictures) nothing screams amatuer like a consumer grade wireless.  Poor performance sitting on top of the rack.

I would suggest while the EMT is being installed you put another length in to a quad box at least 24" from any significant metal.  Mount another quad box and use a Ubiquity Uni-fi Pro.  It the best sub $100 access point on the market and it has all the big boy features (central management, vlan trunk support and multi-SSID capabilities).

The antennas you see are for the AT3000 wireless mics. Those are going away next year as they are 600mhz. Thatís also my old laptop sitting on top.
Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 06, 2018, 08:43:05 pm
The antennas you see are for the AT3000 wireless mics. Those are going away next year as they are 600mhz. Thatís also my old laptop sitting on top.

Why are the antennas oriented like that? 

I assume you put bulkhead connectors in.  There are some more sophisticated antennas but if they work you should be good.

I would suggest moving the antennas to the side if you are having any coverage issues.  That much metal in the near field is going to distort the antenna pattern.
Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Robert Weaver on May 06, 2018, 10:45:46 pm
Why are the antennas oriented like that? 

I assume you put bulkhead connectors in.  There are some more sophisticated antennas but if they work you should be good.

I would suggest moving the antennas to the side if you are having any coverage issues.  That much metal in the near field is going to distort the antenna pattern.

I put them down like that in the event a ball goes over there.  Less likely to damage them.  Those are just to get us through this year.  I havent had any coverage issues.  I do have them attached with bulkhead connectors.  Those antennas run to an older distribution system that powers the wireless receivers. I'm going with 2 more of the System 10 Pro dual units next year when I phase out the AT3000's. 
Title: Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 06, 2018, 10:49:06 pm
I put them down like that in the event a ball goes over there.  Less likely to damage them.  Those are just to get us through this year.  I havent had any coverage issues.  I do have them attached with bulkhead connectors.  Those antennas run to an older distribution system that powers the wireless receivers. I'm going with 2 more of the System 10 Pro dual units next year when I phase out the AT3000's.

When you get the new system cruise over to the RF forum and they can help you out selecting an enclosed radome antenna that will protect from errant balls.