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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Brian Larson on February 23, 2016, 02:47:34 pm

Title: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Brian Larson on February 23, 2016, 02:47:34 pm
Considering upgrading to the QL. I've heard bad things about the gain sharing implementation with the LS9s/SB1608. Is this feature better with the QLs and RIO units?

I can rent other QL consoles and RIO boxes very easily locally. I've never needed a copper split before but some shows just came up that will require a separate monitor console and it seems to make more sense to buy a console with integrated digital snake functionality than to invest in a copper split IF and only if the gain sharing has been improved. Otherwise we'll just buy another LS9 and a used hard split.
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Dave Pluke on February 23, 2016, 07:43:35 pm
Considering upgrading to the QL. I've heard bad things about the gain sharing implementation with the LS9s/SB1608. Is this feature better with the QLs and RIO units?

What sort of "bad things" have you heard?

At the Yamaha workshop, the presenters simply stated pros and cons of gain sharing over the RIO.  I don't recall them mentioning it being "new and improved" - nor did anyone ask the question.

Dave
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Kevin Kimmel on February 24, 2016, 11:59:54 am
Considering upgrading to the QL. I've heard bad things about the gain sharing implementation with the LS9s/SB1608. Is this feature better with the QLs and RIO units?

I can rent other QL consoles and RIO boxes very easily locally. I've never needed a copper split before but some shows just came up that will require a separate monitor console and it seems to make more sense to buy a console with integrated digital snake functionality than to invest in a copper split IF and only if the gain sharing has been improved. Otherwise we'll just buy another LS9 and a used hard split.

Brian, the Gain Compensation in CL/QL series works great and is quite different than previous series consoles.  To shed some light, here's a link to a few videos that explain how it works.  I've personally used GC on well over 100 bands, and never with a problem.  it also can be very handy to use when recording and/or mixing IEMs, because when Gain Compensation is engaged and a head amp is adjusted, no network devices detect a volume change, lending itself to consistent levels when recording so that when mixing down a recorded show, the engineer doesn't need to make changes for head amps that were changed during the performance.
I hope this helps, see section 4...

http://yamahacommercialaudiosystems.com/downloads_brwstype_detail.php?prodID=1131&doc_type=Guide
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Brian Larson on February 24, 2016, 09:50:09 pm
Brian, the Gain Compensation in CL/QL series works great and is quite different than previous series consoles.  To shed some light, here's a link to a few videos that explain how it works.  I've personally used GC on well over 100 bands, and never with a problem.  it also can be very handy to use when recording and/or mixing IEMs, because when Gain Compensation is engaged and a head amp is adjusted, no network devices detect a volume change, lending itself to consistent levels when recording so that when mixing down a recorded show, the engineer doesn't need to make changes for head amps that were changed during the performance.
I hope this helps, see section 4...

http://yamahacommercialaudiosystems.com/downloads_brwstype_detail.php?prodID=1131&doc_type=Guide

Thanks Kevin! Anyone else have personal experience with these units? Someone tell me it sucks so I don't have to spend any money!
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Steve Alves on February 24, 2016, 10:49:31 pm
Don't want to hijack the thread but this is a related question.

I normally use my Rio with my QL1. I have the Dante card in a 01v96i and will be using it with the Rio (without the QL1) for a show, using the R-Remote software to control the head amps.

When using R-Remote, if I use the HPF in the Rio will I need to remember to turn them off prior to using them with the QL1 again? I think the question is on the QL1 if you enable or disable the HPF on a channel, is it the same HPF that is built into the Rio or a separate one in the QL1.

Would hate to have a HPF enabled in the Rio and not able to turn it back off without R-Remote.

Thanks if anyone knows..
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Ade Stuart on February 25, 2016, 07:29:08 am
Don't want to hijack the thread but this is a related question.

I normally use my Rio with my QL1. I have the Dante card in a 01v96i and will be using it with the Rio (without the QL1) for a show, using the R-Remote software to control the head amps.

When using R-Remote, if I use the HPF in the Rio will I need to remember to turn them off prior to using them with the QL1 again? I think the question is on the QL1 if you enable or disable the HPF on a channel, is it the same HPF that is built into the Rio or a separate one in the QL1.

Would hate to have a HPF enabled in the Rio and not able to turn it back off without R-Remote.

Thanks if anyone knows..

If the Rio is in refresh mode, when you connect it back to the QL1 it will look at the QL1 for it's settings. I've never used a Rio with a 01v96i but I would think you may need to have the Rio in Resume mode in this scenario else a power cycle may loose the Rio settings.

There is a HPF on the QL which is separate to the HPF on the Rio. Both can be controlled and recalled from the QL.
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Andrew Makinson on February 25, 2016, 11:57:18 pm
Thanks Kevin! Anyone else have personal experience with these units? Someone tell me it sucks so I don't have to spend any money!
I don't have time to write much, but I'll second what Kevin said.  Our venue has CL5s at FON and MON in the main auditorium and the gain compensation works great.  We also have a couple QL5s in other rooms being used my themselves.  I like them.
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Luke Robinson on February 26, 2016, 04:44:39 am
Thanks Kevin! Anyone else have personal experience with these units? Someone tell me it sucks so I don't have to spend any money!

You have a whole lot more flexibility with a copper split, most notably the ability to use a different brand of console for FOH and Monitors depending on the bands requests.

I would look into your ability to rent a split when you need it, then you can stick with the console you have if you otherwise have no problems with it. If the need arises often enough for you then you can look into purchasing one, with digital consoles I have found that the need for Isolated snakes has really gone away, and since it sounds like you are using remote stage boxes you only need short tails on both sides of your snake, so the price of entry for a copper split is a lot lower than it used to be.

Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Andrew Hollis on March 04, 2016, 05:19:35 pm
I think the issue is that many people for some reason think gain sharing/tracking is evil or bad to your audio. Which is false if you know how to set gain properly!

Gain sharing works exactly the same on every digital console that has it. The analog goes up and the digital goes down. It can be no other way!
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Andrew Broughton on March 04, 2016, 06:48:16 pm
Gain sharing works exactly the same on every digital console that has it. The analog goes up and the digital goes down. It can be no other way!
Well, not entirely true. Many consoles use a system whereby one console is the "master" and has HA control, while others "compensate" via digital attenuation/gain.
The Yamaha system has no "Master" console, in that all consoles (well, 4 of them anyway) can change the gain but all receivers (consoles/RIOs/DVS, etc.) will be sent a compensated signal. Changing the HA gain only changes the S/N ratio, not the level for any attached device, when GC is enabled.
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Guy Morris on March 18, 2016, 11:28:18 am
Well, not entirely true. Many consoles use a system whereby one console is the "master" and has HA control, while others "compensate" via digital attenuation/gain.
The Yamaha system has no "Master" console, in that all consoles (well, 4 of them anyway) can change the gain but all receivers (consoles/RIOs/DVS, etc.) will be sent a compensated signal. Changing the HA gain only changes the S/N ratio, not the level for any attached device, when GC is enabled.

This really explains the Yamaha way well. I steered clear of digital snakes (compromised because of gain changes)) and used an analogue split (still useful if different digital protocols are being used) but when I got some QL desks life was made a whole lot simpler,there really is nothing bad to say it simply works. FOH and Monitors can work independently with no issues when GC is on.
Having a method is key, as FOH I take the lead in setting up the gain structure per channel and then switch the desk to GC then Monitors can start dialling in to suit their requirements, any adjustments they then make to the HA (eg for Iems) do not affect FOH settings etc. 
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Lyngard Ebanks on March 18, 2016, 07:29:57 pm
Well, not entirely true. Many consoles use a system whereby one console is the "master" and has HA control, while others "compensate" via digital attenuation/gain.
The Yamaha system has no "Master" console, in that all consoles (well, 4 of them anyway) can change the gain but all receivers (consoles/RIOs/DVS, etc.) will be sent a compensated signal. Changing the HA gain only changes the S/N ratio, not the level for any attached device, when GC is enabled.

Please allow me to put a simple question to you Pro's,  Are the Mic Pre-amps, Channel EQ's and FX of the QL-5 better than those of the M7CL console ?
Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Mac Kerr on March 18, 2016, 08:17:02 pm
Please allow me to put a simple question to you Pro's,  Are the Mic Pre-amps, Channel EQ's and FX of the QL-5 better than those of the M7CL console ?
Thanks in advance.

Yes. Everything is better. The only downside is the QL doesn't have 60 faders. But it can have a digital snake.

Mac
Title: Re: Yamaha QL preamp sharing
Post by: Lyngard Ebanks on March 18, 2016, 11:39:36 pm
Yes. Everything is better. The only downside is the QL doesn't have 60 faders. But it can have a digital snake.

Mac


Thanks for your quick response and info.    Regards