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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: Jacob Shaw on June 23, 2015, 12:51:38 pm

Title: "True sub"
Post by: Jacob Shaw on June 23, 2015, 12:51:38 pm
Name all of the 18" transducer models new and old that are concider for to be a "true subwoofer".
I'll start:
Jbl 2245
Jbl 2269
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 23, 2015, 08:51:59 pm
Name all of the 18" transducer models new and old that are concider for to be a "true subwoofer".
I'll start:
Jbl 2245
Jbl 2269
The term "sub" simply means "below".

So below what freq?

There is more to consider than simply the woofer.  The cabinet has A LOT to do with it.

Then there is output SPL at some freq that is considered "sub".

Every loudspeaker ever made, EVERY SINGLE ONE, can EASILY reproduce 1 Hz.  With no problem.  So every speaker could be considered a "sub", even HF drivers.

Now how LOUD it is, that is a completely different story.

What is loud in a small room may barely be heard outside at a distance.

A home theater 8" sub may be able to reproduce 20Hz easily and flat-but would be worthless at an EDM show for 20,000.

Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: George Dougherty on June 24, 2015, 12:40:29 am
A home theater 8" sub may be able to reproduce 20Hz easily and flat-but would be worthless at an EDM show for 20,000.
That's easy Ivan, you just bring 20,000 of them...  ;)
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 24, 2015, 07:48:52 am
That's easy Ivan, you just bring 20,000 of them...  ;)
Except for the fact that you can't keep on "piling up speakers".

You start running into limitations-such as physical size-time arrivals (read cancellations) and so forth.

It is FAR better to use a fewer number of quality speakers than more "wimpy" ones.

Not something that manufacturers want you to hear-but it is the truth.

What people would "like" to happen with sound is often NOT the reality of what really happens.

Hence the need to look a bit deeper into what is REALLY going on.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jacob Shaw on June 24, 2015, 03:15:03 pm
Well I have read on this forum that this and that driver is not a "true sub", and that the JBL models I mention are "listed as a true sub" so I am asking what else is broadly considered to be a true sub professional driver.  From looking at the specs I am assuming it means a low fs and a large Xmax.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on June 24, 2015, 03:53:09 pm
i dont use my woofers as subs. i cross my 18" , 15" , 12" woofers at 130hz. i cross 12" and 10" low/mid speakers at. i never allow the low/mids to go below 130hz and i get a little better low/mid clarity. i also use high quality drivers to begin with.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jacob Shaw on June 25, 2015, 09:13:02 am
i dont use my woofers as subs. i cross my 18" , 15" , 12" woofers at 130hz. i cross 12" and 10" low/mid speakers at. i never allow the low/mids to go below 130hz and i get a little better low/mid clarity. i also use high quality drivers to begin with.
What on earth does that have to do with this thread?
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Scott Harris on June 25, 2015, 01:35:48 pm
Can a person derail a thread that never started?  :-)
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Tim Weaver on June 25, 2015, 01:54:34 pm
I like to crossover my drivers too.


Cool story Bro
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on June 25, 2015, 02:44:15 pm
What on earth does that have to do with this thread?
figure it out. and while your at it tell me what a true sub is. there is no one answer for the question.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Lyle Williams on June 26, 2015, 06:10:34 pm
**MY** sub is a true sub.

**YOUR** sub is junk.

:-)
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on June 26, 2015, 09:14:03 pm
**MY** sub is a true sub.

**YOUR** sub is junk.

:-)
well my sub has a screen door ! ha !
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: duane massey on June 27, 2015, 01:28:44 am
Jeff, that explains why no one will go to sea with you....
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on June 27, 2015, 02:11:13 am
Jeff, that explains why no one will go to sea with you....
no one comes to sea me either !
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: chuck clark on June 27, 2015, 05:02:10 am
no one comes to sea me either !

Some soundguys aren't sure whether they're coming or going. Ha!
Well if I recall back in the day, most 15" and a few 18" speakers were found in 2 way boxes and had frequency responses up to and beyond the 1k hz region.  Then we started seeing a few drivers that were optimized for subwoofer use and had heavier cones and more mass so they rolled off around 300 hz. so ..not so good for bi-amping anymore. Thus the term-"true" subwoofer. 
Since it is NOT a defined engineering term and there are hundreds of different kinds that are optimized for different kinds of boxes, "making a list" of them strikes me as a good way to waste a lot of time. It would be much more productive to define your intended use requirements. Like if your touring it'll need handles and weigh less than 500lbs. Will it need flying hardware, weather-proofing, ...will it need to fit in a mini-van? -stuff like that to whittle down the choices so we don't have to spend the rest of our lives arguing what would be "best". The more you can define your needs, the better. Unless your paying us by the hour. In that case, by all means , let's start w/ a general discussion and include as many vague terms as possible. Lol!
Have a lovely day y'all !
Chuck
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on June 27, 2015, 05:27:05 am
whats a true horn ?
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 27, 2015, 08:17:24 am

Since it is NOT a defined engineering term and there are hundreds of different kinds that are optimized for different kinds of boxes, "making a list" of them strikes me as a good way to waste a lot of time. It would be much more productive to define your intended use requirements.
Just for argument sake-I would say that "sub" is defined, as beling "below".

So it would operate below the freq response of the rest of the system.

Until the response of the rest of the rest of the system is defined, then sub could be almost anything.

If the system is a single 2" TV speaker-then a "true sub" could need to go as high as 300Hz.

There is no "simple answer" to a complex question that no usable data.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 27, 2015, 08:22:38 am
whats a true horn ?
You first have to start to define the usage of the "horn".

Yeah I know-making people THINK once again-where is the "simple WRONG answer"?

Is the horn used for pattern control? -If sdown to what freq?

Or impedance matching from the driver to the outside air-for increased sensitivity/efficiency?  or both?

How effective does it have to be to considered a "true horn"?

Yeah, I know-the boring details------



Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 27, 2015, 01:01:20 pm
whats a true horn ?

The kind you find on cattle. ;)
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on June 27, 2015, 03:33:08 pm
The kind you find on cattle. ;)
I thought that was cow bell. Man , I have got a lot to learn !
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on June 28, 2015, 04:59:19 pm
I HAVE THE ANSWER !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laRyswIO_-g
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 28, 2015, 06:01:45 pm
I thought that was cow bell. Man , I have got a lot to learn !
Everybody needs MORE cowbell!

http://www.hulu.com/watch/536145
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on June 28, 2015, 07:06:19 pm
Everybody needs MORE cowbell!

http://www.hulu.com/watch/536145
my cowbell is more better. this is me playing by request of people asking me to play more cowbell. this was done in hurry using 2 SM58 mics, Tascam 52 r2t , M-audiobuddy mic preamp, copied to a Teac CD recorder, along with some heat, earplugs, a glazed donut, whipped cream, a girlfriend, latex solar beef, the Duke of Prunes, and an old Mountian record album that does not contain mississippi queen. I am really Pizzathehut ! wow , i got a whole 100 views !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPviSK6xl2k
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Stephen Kirby on June 29, 2015, 01:51:22 pm
i dont use my woofers as subs. i cross my 18" , 15" , 12" woofers at 130hz. i cross 12" and 10" low/mid speakers at. i never allow the low/mids to go below 130hz and i get a little better low/mid clarity. i also use high quality drivers to begin with.
Ah, the old brickwall crossover.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on June 29, 2015, 03:59:24 pm
Ah, the old brickwall crossover.
I use Ashly XR1001 and XR4001 crossovers. 24db LR. I stopped using passive crossovers many years ago. Brick wall ?! No ! Brick house ! UH !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBx6mAWYPU
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Dennis Wiggins on June 30, 2015, 04:17:13 pm
Ah, the old brickwall crossover.

A brickwall would need an appropriate flyover device, such as a drone, or catapult.

-Dennis

<edit>

I think Jeff B's original point was that he uses "woofers", not "subs".

-D
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Stephen Kirby on June 30, 2015, 05:15:51 pm
Was just responding to the comment "i never allow the low/mids to go below 130hz".  I'm pretty sensitive to IM distortion and so I'm not fond of the same driver that's producing the fundamentals of voice and instruments also trying to produce bass.  I tend to think of sub as something below the lowest note on a guitar.

I got to experience the Hartley subs once.  You couldn't really hear them.  They were developed to produce infrasonic sound in experiments on airport noise.    These refrigerator sized cabinets were put into homes in blind experiments on subsonic rumble that you couldn't hear but to see if it affected test subjects.  Mark Levinson latched onto them as part of his HQD reference playback system.  They didn't sound like subs.  There was no stunning deep bass.  But there was the concussive impact of things like someone stomping on a stage.  I got to hear an original 30ips half-track tape played back on the same machine it was recorded on of Eubie Blake giving a recital in a theatre.  As he stamped his foot in time you didn't hear this big booming thud, but it the experience of listening to it was very realistic.

That is a true sub.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Dennis Wiggins on June 30, 2015, 09:34:19 pm
Was just responding to the comment "i never allow the low/mids to go below 130hz".  I'm pretty sensitive to IM distortion and so I'm not fond of the same driver that's producing the fundamentals of voice and instruments also trying to produce bass.  I tend to think of sub as something below the lowest note on a guitar.

I got to experience the Hartley subs once.  You couldn't really hear them.  They were developed to produce infrasonic sound in experiments on airport noise.    These refrigerator sized cabinets were put into homes in blind experiments on subsonic rumble that you couldn't hear but to see if it affected test subjects.  Mark Levinson latched onto them as part of his HQD reference playback system.  They didn't sound like subs.  There was no stunning deep bass.  But there was the concussive impact of things like someone stomping on a stage.  I got to hear an original 30ips half-track tape played back on the same machine it was recorded on of Eubie Blake giving a recital in a theatre.  As he stamped his foot in time you didn't hear this big booming thud, but it the experience of listening to it was very realistic.

That is a true sub.

You are correct.  A true sub should produce frequencies below (sub audio) what our ears can perceive.  What value is it?  I don't know.

-Dennis

<edit> 

This sounds like an old TAS article from the 70's... 

-D

Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: John L Nobile on June 30, 2015, 09:37:32 pm
When did the term subs first come about? In the 80s we used bass bins. I don't remember when I first heard that word used with something that didn't sink ships.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on July 01, 2015, 03:28:15 am
the first time i heard sub woofer was in the car audio crowd. iirc it was in the 90's. it is a seperate mono woofer added to small ful range speakers in a vehicle. how can you have a sub woofer if you already have 15" or 18" woofers. how does adding seperate woofer only cabinets make them subs ? most of the strong bass is in the 80-100hz range and thats not sub. i can feel 40hz and i can hear 40hz rattle things but thats not sub since the an open E on the bass guitar is 41hz. the low A on a piano is 27.5hz. maybe sub is short for substitute woofer when a pair of 6x9 car speakers cant cut it. i never use the words sub woofer or sub. i call the speaker that produces the bass a woofer.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jacob Shaw on July 17, 2015, 10:25:37 pm
Ok

True sub: a driver that is designed to operate below the human hearing range

True horn: a horn that has a total length of more than 5ft (quoting the guy that runs speakerplans.com).

The reason that a sub is useful is because almost all modern music utilizes these frequencies below 40hz.  No you can't here these tones, but you can hear the harmonics of them, and feel them in conjunction with the harmonics.  And this is what every audiophile under 40 is addicted to.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on July 18, 2015, 04:11:51 am
Ok

True sub: a driver that is designed to operate below the human hearing range

True horn: a horn that has a total length of more than 5ft (quoting the guy that runs speakerplans.com).

The reason that a sub is useful is because almost all modern music utilizes these frequencies below 40hz.  No you can't here these tones, but you can hear the harmonics of them, and feel them in conjunction with the harmonics.  And this is what every audiophile under 40 is addicted to.
i dont have any problem hearing the 27hz note on the lowest A key on my 88 key Yamaha and all the others up and past 40hz. i can easily hear a 20hz tone with my frequency generator with any 12, 15 or 18 woofer. no such thing as a sub or true sub. i have seen 8" ,10 , and 12" woofers called subs and they roll off around 65hz and can only be made flat if you roll off and flatten the frequencies above that. i dont have subs and never will. my 18" and 15" drivers are woofers, not subs. i cross them over into the mids at 130 hz. i can vibrate a car apart. some people just dont understand. back in the 70's - 90's we never used the word sub in PA audio or Audiophile audio. it was the car audio crowd that started using the word sub. i hear good PA equipment that sounds awful because of where people cross the speakers at. try crossing the woofers and mids at 130hz. roll the top of the woofers of at 130hz and roll the bottom of the mids off at 130hz. adjust the mid/high crossover frequency point with good clean recorded music playing. thers going to be a spot where it just sounds right. then leave it alone. try it and hear for yourself. i use Ashly XR1001 and XR4001 active crossovers that are 24bd/oct L-R.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 18, 2015, 04:37:32 am
Who cares about vibrating cars apart.  Nothing you said make sense in pro audio.  You are sitting inside the enclosure in a fixed position.  Crossing over your "subs" at 130hz is so high that they will localize  (you will be able to perceive the source of the sound).  It will also be muddy as the destructive interference will be pushed into a more critical octave.  "A spot where it just sounds right" is not quantifiable.  If you are integrating subs and tops from different vendors,  you need to measure and configure.  You also don't adjust processing during a show.  Car and home home audio practical experience has to be unlearned for production audio.  I am very leery of hiring folks from that background. 

I just looked at who posted this, you know all this...What is up?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jeff Bankston on July 18, 2015, 05:28:15 am
Who cares about vibrating cars apart.  Nothing you said make sense in pro audio.  You are sitting inside the enclosure in a fixed position.  Crossing over your "subs" at 130hz is so high that they will localize  (you will be able to perceive the source of the sound).  It will also be muddy as the destructive interference will be pushed into a more critical octave.  "A spot where it just sounds right" is not quantifiable.  If you are integrating subs and tops from different vendors,  you need to measure and configure.  You also don't adjust processing during a show.  Car and home home audio practical experience has to be unlearned for production audio.  I am very leery of hiring folks from that background. 

I just looked at who posted this, you know all this...What is up?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
you have no idea what your talking about. why dont you try it and see. btw i dont have any subs and have never owned any subs. right now i have FaitalPro 18XL1600 "woofers". i have ben a musician since 1970 and built my first PA around 1971. if you read my post you will see "why" i refered to car audio. imo you dont have any idea what you are doing. i NEVER said anything about adjusting processing during a show. you should get a larger screen so you can read the print.
Title: Re: &quot;True sub&quot;
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 18, 2015, 05:58:16 am
I can read just fine "adjust it and leave it alone"  that implies on the fly processor adjustment.    130hz is is able to be localized and the only reason to go that high is if your tops can produce sufficient output that low.  I enjoy arguing facts I will tell you we are within 10 years of age and experience so I am comfortable too with what I bring to the table.   Make a technical argument.  I also don't know anything about your Lf boxes but I will look at the specs so I can have all the data.  To me discussing the terms is a non-starter.  It's semantics and the term sub has become ubiquitous.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: &quot;True sub&quot;
Post by: Jeff Bankston on July 23, 2015, 06:54:24 am
I can read just fine "adjust it and leave it alone"  that implies on the fly processor adjustment.    130hz is is able to be localized and the only reason to go that high is if your tops can produce sufficient output that low.  I enjoy arguing facts I will tell you we are within 10 years of age and experience so I am comfortable too with what I bring to the table.   Make a technical argument.  I also don't know anything about your Lf boxes but I will look at the specs so I can have all the data.  To me discussing the terms is a non-starter.  It's semantics and the term sub has become ubiquitous.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
This is what I do.
Woofers - FaitalPro 18XL1600
Mids - Ciare 12NDH-4
Highs - Radian 850PB and DDS CFD 2-60X Pro horns.
Title: Re: &quot;True sub&quot;
Post by: duane massey on July 23, 2015, 11:27:37 am
This is a subwoofer, circa 1977.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: Jacob Shaw on July 23, 2015, 11:42:34 am
I like 4 way configurations, so you can have your high crossover point without mudding up the subs.  Yesterday I signed a contract for an artist from LA, and the tech rider said "make sure the system is eq'ed to hit below 40hz". Although I didn't think the terminology was coherent, I know what they are looking for. 
Title: Re: &quot;True sub&quot;
Post by: Jeff Bankston on July 23, 2015, 05:16:42 pm
This is a subwoofer, circa 1977.
that must be located in the "sub basement". the "sub basement" is located below the regular basement and not to be confused with the "irregular basement". they use to keep me in the irregular basement but i got out.
Title: Re: "True sub"
Post by: duane massey on July 23, 2015, 09:07:31 pm
As you get older, "irregular" is not a term to be used lightly.

That is a pic of one of a pair of 20hz horns in a local club here in town.