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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Pro AV Forum => Topic started by: Bob Gill on March 18, 2015, 01:49:37 pm

Title: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 18, 2015, 01:49:37 pm
Good afternoon folks - this is my first post, so be gentle haha. I don't know a ton about audio in general, but I am opening up a social club in Akron, Ohio with a focus on bass heavy EDM. Based on my limited knowledge and research we purchased 4 JBL PRX418S 18" subs, and two JBL PRX 415M 15" mains. We paired the 4 18s with a QSC RMX5050A 5,000 watt amp, and the two 15s with a QSC GX5, and we have a power conditioner in the rack as well. We were planning to run the 18s in parallel @ 4ohms, which if I am understanding correctly, is what the four 8ohm JBL PRX418S' will be showing as to the amp. Any suggestions or input would be much appreciated. Thanks!
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 18, 2015, 01:52:41 pm
Hi, Bob...

The first thing to do is to take that *(*&^&$ "power conditioner" out of your amp rack.  It does no good and can actually limit your system performance and will likely fail when used with power amplifiers. 
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Corey Scogin on March 18, 2015, 02:00:44 pm
Just to be clear, two 8 Ohm speakers in parallel will equal 4 Ohms.  If each amp channel has 2 subs connected to it then each amp channel will "see" 4 Ohms.  This is correct and likely a good way to connect the system.  Amps are rated for a minimum impedance per channel and the RMX 5050A can handle down to 2 Ohms per channel so all should be well in that regard.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 18, 2015, 02:03:35 pm
I was wondering that myself - I have read bad and positive things about power conditioners. My personal experience is when I added one to a system at a previous venue, we cleared up our incessant low hum and popping from strobes.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 18, 2015, 02:05:05 pm
Corey that was one of my biggest questions - should we run it bridged @ 2ohms 5,000 watts with all 4 subs in parallel or in non-bridged at 4ohms with two per channel parallel?
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 18, 2015, 02:06:19 pm
I was wondering that myself - I have read bad and positive things about power conditioners. My personal experience is when I added one to a system at a previous venue, we cleared up our incessant low hum and popping from strobes.

It was likely something else that got changed in the process.  What unit did you install that gave you this result????

Info is gold around here, so when posting on stuff it's best to include brands/models every time.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on March 18, 2015, 02:35:40 pm
I don't think anyway you hook those PRX418S' up will give satisfactory results for "bass heavy EDM". Those subs have a f3 of 52hz. Possibly fine for live music however for EDM they just can't play 2/3rds of the notes.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: John L Nobile on March 18, 2015, 02:49:52 pm
Corey that was one of my biggest questions - should we run it bridged @ 2ohms 5,000 watts with all 4 subs in parallel or in non-bridged at 4ohms with two per channel parallel?

I wouldn't run anything bridged at 2 ohms. I'd run them 2 per side at 4 ohms. If you can, keep all your subs together. That'll give you more output. You'll probably need that.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Corey Scogin on March 18, 2015, 02:55:44 pm
Corey that was one of my biggest questions - should we run it bridged @ 2ohms 5,000 watts with all 4 subs in parallel or in non-bridged at 4ohms with two per channel parallel?

The QSC RMX5050A, nor any other amp I can think of, is rated for 2 Ohm when bridged so that configuration is not an option.  Your best bet with that hardware is to hook it up with 2 subs per channel in stereo mode as you first outlined.

On a separate topic, what do you plan to use as a crossover?
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 18, 2015, 03:17:53 pm
It was a Furman P-8 Pro power conditioner. It seemed to be a noticeable difference in hum/pop, but you may be right, we may have tightened connections or something in the process that affected it as well.

Len - Is there another speaker you would suggest for these purposes in this price range? I havent picked the subs up, so I can change the order @ this point. Great bass is definitely our priority! :)
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: John L Nobile on March 18, 2015, 03:20:27 pm
Do a sub search on the forum. Danley TH118's are highly recommended.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on March 18, 2015, 03:53:49 pm
You are lucky you can still change out the cabinets. As mentioned do a search or start a new thread. EDM needs strong output down to 35hz for most genres and there are tons of subs that fit the bill. I'm partial to the PK Sound klarity bins, not because others can't do the job, but because the PK logo sells tickets to shows in my area. Always different angles in every decision.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Jamin Lynch on March 18, 2015, 03:54:25 pm
It was a Furman P-8 Pro power conditioner. It seemed to be a noticeable difference in hum/pop, but you may be right, we may have tightened connections or something in the process that affected it as well.

Len - Is there another speaker you would suggest for these purposes in this price range? I havent picked the subs up, so I can change the order @ this point. Great bass is definitely our priority! :)

First....How big is the room?
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 18, 2015, 04:53:48 pm
First....How big is the room?
It's approximately 30x30 with a 10 foot ceiling.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on March 18, 2015, 05:12:04 pm
DON"T buy the PRX418's - from everything I have read and everyone I have listened to with experience in using them, they will definitely NOT be adequate for EDM.
Do you already own the amps? If not - having had little experience in sound, maybe you should look at powered subs and speakers. This removes the guess work out of the equation and will make things so much easier for you. It will not cost you anymore to do things this way either.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 18, 2015, 06:42:15 pm
DON"T buy the PRX418's - from everything I have read and everyone I have listened to with experience in using them, they will definitely NOT be adequate for EDM.
Do you already own the amps? If not - having had little experience in sound, maybe you should look at powered subs and speakers. This removes the guess work out of the equation and will make things so much easier for you. It will not cost you anymore to do things this way either.

we definitely want to stay with passive speakers - are there any recommendations in the price range of the PRX418 for 35hz response?
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Scott Holtzman on March 18, 2015, 07:33:17 pm
we definitely want to stay with passive speakers - are there any recommendations in the price range of the PRX418 for 35hz response?

Not new there is not.  If you are not space constrained there are some interesting used possibilities depending on just how much weight and space you can tolerate.  If you want small, efficient cabinets that go low you have to use something other than a simple box style cabinet.

Speakers like the previously mentioned Danley utilize complex cabinets that fold the sound to make the cabinet appear acoustically larger (simplified explanation).  Danley is like the Ferrari of sound and you can actually talk to real American folks when you call them so lots of fans of that product.

That being said I am not a Danley dealer or dealer for anything but I am a seasoned sound guy in Cleveland.  If you would like a professional look send me a private message on the forum and I may be able to help you out in some way.



Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Scott Carneval on March 18, 2015, 08:56:14 pm
Good afternoon folks - this is my first post, so be gentle haha. I don't know a ton about audio in general, but I am opening up a social club in Akron, Ohio with a focus on bass heavy EDM. Based on my limited knowledge and research we purchased 4 JBL PRX418S 18" subs, and two JBL PRX 415M 15" mains. We paired the 4 18s with a QSC RMX5050A 5,000 watt amp, and the two 15s with a QSC GX5, and we have a power conditioner in the rack as well. We were planning to run the 18s in parallel @ 4ohms, which if I am understanding correctly, is what the four 8ohm JBL PRX418S' will be showing as to the amp. Any suggestions or input would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Can you get your money back on the speakers and subs?  The RMX5050 is probably the best amp for subs in that price point.  Not a huge fan of the GX5.  Another RMX amp would work well for the tops.  You could fill that room with PRX418's and you still won't be happy with the bass.  You could purchase one Danley TH118 for less than what you paid for those 4 PRX418's, and power it with one side of the RMX5050.  Down the road you could add another TH118 to the other side of the RMX5050 and you'd have some serious bass.  We just finished an EDM nightclub install last week with 4 TH118's.  It's an insane amount of bass for the room. As for tops, Danley SM80 is killer but quite a bit more than the PRX415.  If you want to stay passive, the JBL AC2215 is a better speaker than the PRX, but a little more expensive.  The STX812 or STX815 are better, but cost even more.  The new SRX812/815 are nice, but they're powered.  Powered can be better if you're not experienced with setting up a DSP.  Do you have a DSP?  You don't mention one.  I would stay far away from the dbx Driverack PA/PA2.  The Driverack 260 is great, so is the Ashly SP3.6. 
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Jamin Lynch on March 18, 2015, 11:55:10 pm
we definitely want to stay with passive speakers - are there any recommendations in the price range of the PRX418 for 35hz response?

If your budget is in the PRX418 range, then you may not find anything that will give you that kind of response. You would need to step up quite a bit. Your room isn't all that large though.

Do you have any more in your budget to work with? The next step up subwoofer with JBL would be the STX series. It has the 2242 speaker which I think most people here would say is a great 18" speaker.

The PRX415's aren't bad...not great but good.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Tim Weaver on March 19, 2015, 12:02:44 am
I know you are in Akron, and I know you don't have a realistic budget, but, these popped up here in Austin the other day. This is what you want for all that goes wub-wub.

http://austin.craigslist.org/msg/4897462828.html


And from a different seller there is a full system: http://austin.craigslist.org/msg/4899992225.html
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Richard Turner on March 19, 2015, 12:44:04 am
The QSC RMX5050A, nor any other amp I can think of, is rated for 2 Ohm when bridged so that configuration is not an option.  Your best bet with that hardware is to hook it up with 2 subs per channel in stereo mode as you first outlined.

I know of one antique that was lol. pg 34 in manual

http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/legacy/103169.pdf

As for the power conditioner if its an actual real one (buck - boost regulated output) it might help if the processing was attached to it or a UPS box, definetly not for the amps though.  Remember you are attempting to DJ proof the system, also a processor or bare minimum a very musical rack of compressors is in order. Never trust a DJ with levels.

Myself I would not reco the RMX series amps anywhere for permanent instal if they will be used at over 30% rated output on a regular basis. Great for house radio. monitors, couple or 3 mights a week for 2 guys with guitars and vox but for full tilt DJ rig you will likely have a failure sooner than later. Much newer stuff out there or heavier built stuff anyway.


Best question to ask is how many cubic feet is the club and what is the bare minimum sustained SPL. Do you need to just hear the bass or should your pantlegs be as if in a gale force wind when 25 feet from the stacks? Do you need sub bass? (the stuff below 45hz?)
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Scott Carneval on March 19, 2015, 07:17:35 am
Richard, have you personally experienced a failure with RMX amps that were used over 30% of their rated output?  If so, I'd like to hear about it. For what it's worth, unless your favorite genre of music is a sine wave you're probably using far less than 30% of the rated output of whatever amp it is that you're using. I'm not suggesting they are bulletproof by any means, but I have yet to find a suitable alternative in their price point. The 4050, 5050, and even 1850HD have heavy duty toroidal transformers and enough capacitance to sustain bass notes. Switch-mode amps in this price point do not.

I have replaced several failed amps from a well-known manufacturer (who shall remain unnamed) with the RMX series and have been very pleased with the results. The one knock against the RMX series is that the attenuators can get dirty in a club environment, but with routine maintenance this generally isn't an issue. They're easy to spray out and can be replaced for about $10 each if necessary.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 19, 2015, 10:23:46 am
Best question to ask is how many cubic feet is the club and what is the bare minimum sustained SPL. Do you need to just hear the bass or should your pantlegs be as if in a gale force wind when 25 feet from the stacks? Do you need sub bass? (the stuff below 45hz?)

Of course ideally we want gale force winds 25 feet away, but with a $5,000 budget thats essentially impossible. The room is approximately 900 sq ft, and I realize our budget is probably not ideal, but its what we have to work with at this point. I need to maximize my bass for this dollar amount. We do plan to upgrade/add equipment as we have the finances, so that within 6 months or so we're where we need to be.

I guess the key thing to know, this is NOT necessarily a Vegas style super club - we're a smallish after hours social club with an EDM focus.

As far as processing, I'm kind of in the dark - we had not thought about that, and a venue that we have monthly shows at does not use any kind of processing. But I imagine it would be a great idea in our case, so that we can maximize our sound per dollar. Thanks for ANY info you can give, it's much appreciated :)
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Richard Turner on March 19, 2015, 10:30:57 am
Richard, have you personally experienced a failure with RMX amps that were used over 30% of their rated output?  If so, I'd like to hear about it. For what it's worth, unless your favorite genre of music is a sine wave you're probably using far less than 30% of the rated output of whatever amp it is that you're using. I'm not suggesting they are bulletproof by any means, but I have yet to find a suitable alternative in their price point. The 4050, 5050, and even 1850HD have heavy duty toroidal transformers and enough capacitance to sustain bass notes. Switch-mode amps in this price point do not.

I have replaced several failed amps from a well-known manufacturer (who shall remain unnamed) with the RMX series and have been very pleased with the results. The one knock against the RMX series is that the attenuators can get dirty in a club environment, but with routine maintenance this generally isn't an issue. They're easy to spray out and can be replaced for about $10 each if necessary.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My experience is with the original rmx series not the newer -a so all I can comment on is the older ones. The RMX series was a decent utility amp series. Made in China. Single board design, it makes little difference if it was outfitted with a super heavy copper torrodial transformer or switching power supply. Most manufacturers are offering a similar type of unit, The crown XLS stuff I found to be worse than a lateral move in comparison, the behringer EP series was essentially a clone but with even cheaper internals (lots of chat on that 5 years back if you search on here ep2500 vs rmx2450)

EDM is essientially reproducing highly energetic LF sine waves when it comes down to it.

The stuff is made to work but it may or may not prove in the long run, for me it did not, I also wouldn't reco any P series amplifier from Yamaha for long term DJ abuse to drive subwoofers.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Richard Turner on March 19, 2015, 10:33:20 am
Of course ideally we want gale force winds 25 feet away, but with a $5,000 budget thats essentially impossible. The room is approximately 900 sq ft, and I realize our budget is probably not ideal, but its what we have to work with at this point. I need to maximize my bass for this dollar amount. We do plan to upgrade/add equipment as we have the finances, so that within 6 months or so we're where we need to be.

I guess the key thing to know, this is NOT necessarily a Vegas style super club - we're a smallish after hours social club with an EDM focus.

As far as processing, I'm kind of in the dark - we had not thought about that, and a venue that we have monthly shows at does not use any kind of processing. But I imagine it would be a great idea in our case, so that we can maximize our sound per dollar. Thanks for ANY info you can give, it's much appreciated :)


You have just perfectly given the reasons why you should look at leasing something in that last statement.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 19, 2015, 10:54:03 am

You have just perfectly given the reasons why you should look at leasing something in that last statement.

We have considered leasing, but the minimum requirements for most leasing options (being in business 1 year, etc) we don't meet at this point.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on March 19, 2015, 11:31:36 am
You have a $5k budget for subs in a 30'x30'x10' room. That might not be a caviar budget but incredible bass is certainly doable for that amount. There is plenty of equipment on the used market these days, deals can be had.

Why are you so adamant about passive speakers? You would be limiting your selection going that route. Also, a processor isn't an option, it is a necessity. Whether it is built into your amplifiers, your active speakers, or a standalone unit it is an absolute must. You will need to high and low pass your subs and high pass your tops as well as some form of tone control (EQ). Limiting is also a must when you mix Pioneer mixers with DJ's. Most active speakers will do this for you.

I would suggest going with 2 of whatever boxes you decide on. 30x30 is a small room and room modes make even bass in small rooms difficult. Being able to split the boxes apart from each other may be able to tame the peaks and dips.

One of the benefits of leasing is that you could change the terms if the equipment selection doesn't work out for you. Since that isn't an option I would suggest you rent a system or a few different systems before you commit to a purchase to verify if your equipment selection is satisfactory.

(Flame suit on) As great as JBL drivers are, they just don't have the x-max for EDM. Their 3200w peak handling is meaningless when you are playing sine waves. 9mm x-max may be great for a kick drum but in a front loaded box, EDM will eat that up and spit that out.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Jamin Lynch on March 19, 2015, 12:36:43 pm
Of course ideally we want gale force winds 25 feet away, but with a $5,000 budget thats essentially impossible. The room is approximately 900 sq ft, and I realize our budget is probably not ideal, but its what we have to work with at this point. I need to maximize my bass for this dollar amount. We do plan to upgrade/add equipment as we have the finances, so that within 6 months or so we're where we need to be.

I guess the key thing to know, this is NOT necessarily a Vegas style super club - we're a smallish after hours social club with an EDM focus.

As far as processing, I'm kind of in the dark - we had not thought about that, and a venue that we have monthly shows at does not use any kind of processing. But I imagine it would be a great idea in our case, so that we can maximize our sound per dollar. Thanks for ANY info you can give, it's much appreciated :)

Is that $5K budget just for subs or for the whole system?

How loud do you really want to get in a 900sq ft space?

Processing is a must. Something like a DriveRack or similar processor
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 19, 2015, 01:17:50 pm
Is that $5K budget just for subs or for the whole system?

How loud do you really want to get in a 900sq ft space?

Processing is a must. Something like a DriveRack or similar processor

Yes $5k for the whole system. Loudness is not as important as deep bass would be, I dont know if those go hand in hand. We expect 60ish people most nights. We are limited to whatever Guitar Center has in stock, new or used, as that is where our line of credit is.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Jamin Lynch on March 19, 2015, 01:23:55 pm
Yes $5k for the whole system. Loudness is not as important as deep bass would be, I dont know if those go hand in hand. We expect 60ish people most nights. We are limited to whatever Guitar Center has in stock, new or used, as that is where our line of credit is.

In a room that small, you may want to consider one (or two??) really good subs that will meet the EDM demands vs. 4 that may not. It might work out to be the same $$ in the end

Although, I haven't heard  the Danley subs myself, I often hear they are the sub to use for EDM. Not sure if one will fit within your budget. Maybe someone else will let you know.

Maybe TH115?? Just to help with the cost. Not sure if just one would be enough.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Tim Weaver on March 19, 2015, 01:53:50 pm
OK then, 5k for everything in a small room, limited to Banjo center gear.....



I haven't heard them personally, but the Alto Black series subs are supposedly tuned a lot lower than most other powered subs. They cost about 1100 each. http://www.altoproaudio.com/products/black18s


Then a pair of Yamaha DSR12's would be all the top end you need. They are 900 each.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Yamaha-DSR112-Active-Loudspeaker-106226970-i1546108.gc


So now we are sitting at 4 grand for speakers. Would 1000 bucks buy everything else you need?
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 19, 2015, 03:16:02 pm
OK then, 5k for everything in a small room, limited to Banjo center gear.....



I haven't heard them personally, but the Alto Black series subs are supposedly tuned a lot lower than most other powered subs. They cost about 1100 each. http://www.altoproaudio.com/products/black18s


Then a pair of Yamaha DSR12's would be all the top end you need. They are 900 each.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Yamaha-DSR112-Active-Loudspeaker-106226970-i1546108.gc


So now we are sitting at 4 grand for speakers. Would 1000 bucks buy everything else you need?

The Alto's look fantastic - though I don't see that GC carries them. We're not opposed to powered speakers, but we were able to get an open box RMX5050A ($1,700 normally), for $990 so we kind of wanted to hang on to that deal, though we could return it.

What about these http://www.guitarcenter.com/JBL-STX818S-18--Bass-Reflex-Subwoofer-108100785-i2581245.gc
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on March 19, 2015, 03:29:02 pm
The Alto's look fantastic - though I don't see that GC carries them. We're not opposed to powered speakers, but we were able to get an open box RMX5050A ($1,700 normally), for $990 so we kind of wanted to hang on to that deal, though we could return it.

What about these http://www.guitarcenter.com/JBL-STX818S-18--Bass-Reflex-Subwoofer-108100785-i2581245.gc
Forgive me for not reading your whole thread, but I wanted to comment that you're doing this backwards in buying an amp first.  For the average user, self-powered speakers are a MUCH better choice than anything that requires an external amp.  I would strongly suggest returning the amp and making a plan, rather than trying to fit your situation around a limiting factor such as the amp you bought and may not need.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Tim Weaver on March 19, 2015, 03:44:24 pm
Guitar Center does carry the Alto brand. You'll just have to ask to see if they can get the Black series. I bet they can, but they won't stock it because it's more expensive.

And, 990 bucks spent on something that won't really help is 990 bucks wasted. The 5050 puts out 1100 watts at 4 ohms for each channel. 2 of the Black18's have that much power, BUT you can split them up on different circuits. Also, if one dies or thermals out, you have a second one running. Do you know how to properly process and limit these subs? The Blacks have that all built in.

At the very least you will have to buy a crossover to run the 5050 with anything. A cheap analog crossover has no limiting built in, so you might just blow up your investment. Actually with EDM you'll need some sophisticated limiting to keep from blowing up your investment. You need limiting that catches peaks, AND reduces power over time (thermal limiting). That kind of stuff will cost you 5 grand by itself, and doesn't come from guitar center....


Just buy good powered speakers and quit over thinking it!
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Rob Spence on March 19, 2015, 03:44:27 pm
Remember, the wrong device at the right price (deal) is still the wrong device!

Figure out what you need then figure out some options to get you there, then figure out the best one for you.

Let us know your whole budget picture.

Is banjo center the only place you can do business, or, is it the only place you tried?
If you got the same credit line at a bank or, better yet, a credit union, you could buy the right gear wherever you got a good deal rather than only shopping at one store.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on March 19, 2015, 03:52:02 pm
Forgive me for not reading your whole thread, but I wanted to comment that you're doing this backwards in buying an amp first.  For the average user, self-powered speakers are a MUCH better choice than anything that requires an external amp.  I would strongly suggest returning the amp and making a plan, rather than trying to fit your situation around a limiting factor such as the amp you bought and may not need.

+1

I suggested powered speakers early on in the thread but the OP said he DEFINITELY wanted passives.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 19, 2015, 04:31:17 pm
Remember, the wrong device at the right price (deal) is still the wrong device!

Figure out what you need then figure out some options to get you there, then figure out the best one for you.

Let us know your whole budget picture.

Is banjo center the only place you can do business, or, is it the only place you tried?
If you got the same credit line at a bank or, better yet, a credit union, you could buy the right gear wherever you got a good deal rather than only shopping at one store.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

We have looked other places, Banjo Center is the only place that would extend a large enough credit line to us. Total budget is $5,000 for the entire system, and would need to be spent entirely there. Not totally opposed to powered equipment, we were essentially under the impression that in terms of future proofing/expanding our system we were better off using rack equipment. We plan to drastically improve the system within 3-6 months of opening. But again, definitely not opposed to going powered if they will place nice with other stuff down the road.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on March 19, 2015, 04:48:13 pm
We have looked other places, Banjo Center is the only place that would extend a large enough credit line to us. Total budget is $5,000 for the entire system, and would need to be spent entirely there. Not totally opposed to powered equipment, we were essentially under the impression that in terms of future proofing/expanding our system we were better off using rack equipment. We plan to drastically improve the system within 3-6 months of opening. But again, definitely not opposed to going powered if they will place nice with other stuff down the road.
Bob, it is sometimes very difficult to start small and then upgrade while continuing to use your existing equipment.  Something like a Danley TH118 is actually quite economical considering how many smaller subs a single TH118 can replace (3-4 single 18's), however the starting price point is out of your budget. 

There are two reasons to buy self-powered gear:

1. It will sound good right away.  The whole thing is a system; plug it in, balance levels between subs and tops, and go.  It will also be more difficult to blow up, as the manufacturer has spent time working on speaker protection algorithms.
2. It will have a high resale value, as they are desirable pieces.

I would buy whatever you can afford today - a pair of QSC KW181s, JBL PRX718XLF, or JBL SRX818P, plus the mains of your choice - Yamaha DSR-112, EV ETX series, JBL SRX800 series, if you can afford these boxes, as they will sound significantly better than lower-end gear.  When you have more funds for an upgrade, you will be able to recoup much of your investment if you bought quality gear.

Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 19, 2015, 05:12:41 pm
Bob, it is sometimes very difficult to start small and then upgrade while continuing to use your existing equipment.  Something like a Danley TH118 is actually quite economical considering how many smaller subs a single TH118 can replace (3-4 single 18's), however the starting price point is out of your budget. 

There are two reasons to buy self-powered gear:

1. It will sound good right away.  The whole thing is a system; plug it in, balance levels between subs and tops, and go.  It will also be more difficult to blow up, as the manufacturer has spent time working on speaker protection algorithms.
2. It will have a high resale value, as they are desirable pieces.

I would buy whatever you can afford today - a pair of QSC KW181s, JBL PRX712XLF, or JBL SRX818P, plus the mains of your choice - Yamaha DSR-112, EV ETX series, JBL SRX800 series, if you can afford these boxes, as they will sound significantly better than lower-end gear.  When you have more funds for an upgrade, you will be able to recoup much of your investment if you bought quality gear.

Amazing advice guys, thanks so much. We're going to go with powered 2 JBL PRX718XLF and some appropriate mains. With this set up, do we need any kind of DSP or Crossover stuff?
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Jamin Lynch on March 19, 2015, 05:21:05 pm
Amazing advice guys, thanks so much. We're going to go with powered 2 JBL PRX718XLF and some appropriate mains. With this set up, do we need any kind of DSP or Crossover stuff?

Yep, a couple of PRX718XLF and 2 PRX712 and you'll be set. They have it at GC. And you should be under budget
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on March 19, 2015, 05:28:29 pm
Amazing advice guys, thanks so much. We're going to go with powered 2 JBL PRX718XLF and some appropriate mains. With this set up, do we need any kind of DSP or Crossover stuff?

Crossovers and DSP are built into the subs (or tops depending on brand) … nothing else to do…..
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Richard Turner on March 19, 2015, 05:37:45 pm
Not sure why you were so hung up on the 5050a amplifier

$800 would get you this  http://www.zzounds.com/item--PEVIPR27500

$1000 for one with DSP, amplifiers are about the only peavey produce I would reco these days save for a few guitar products and the china made PV series compact soundboards


As for DSP processor, it really depends how far you want to go, Seeing as this is destined to be destroyed by DJ's bare minimum would be a well hidden compressor/ brick wall limiter.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Rob Spence on March 19, 2015, 08:06:07 pm
Yep, a couple of PRX718XLF and 2 PRX712 and you'll be set. They have it at GC. And you should be under budget

+1 on that and a little ways down the road when you have some more funds, get another pair of same subs.

Don't forget to negotiate on the price. Trade in something if you can. It helps the salesman with pricing too.

Get cables too but don't get sold on Monster cables. Expensive and not great. Hosa is fine for now.


What is going to be your sound source?


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Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Scott Holtzman on March 19, 2015, 11:04:19 pm
The specs on the Alto Black are much more suited for EDM.  You will get a much better ROI when you go to sell.  Pay off that credit line as fast as you can if the business is successful you can now sell that gear and know what you need for your next phase.  If it is not you won't take such a big whack.

Just went over to guitar center.com.  the new srx828sp looks like a real good investment.  Buy a pair of those on your credit line then look for a set of used tops or squeeze out another grand and get the Yammies mentioned earlier.  These are new subs, have processing built it and will hold value well.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Tim Weaver on March 19, 2015, 11:06:11 pm
The specs on the Alto Black are much more suited for EDM.  You will get a much better ROI when you go to sell.  Pay off that credit line as fast as you can if the business is successful you can now sell that gear and know what you need for your next phase.  If it is not you won't take such a big whack.


That's supported by some user reviews as well. People are saying that it puts out like a PRX-XLF, but it goes much lower...


Color me interested
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 20, 2015, 11:51:37 am
The specs on the Alto Black are much more suited for EDM.  You will get a much better ROI when you go to sell.  Pay off that credit line as fast as you can if the business is successful you can now sell that gear and know what you need for your next phase.  If it is not you won't take such a big whack.

Just went over to guitar center.com.  the new srx828sp looks like a real good investment.  Buy a pair of those on your credit line then look for a set of used tops or squeeze out another grand and get the Yammies mentioned earlier.  These are new subs, have processing built it and will hold value well.

Definitely looks like the Alto Blacks are the best bang for the buck - I'm trying to get a set now. Guitar Center doesn't carry them, and can't get them from Musicians Friend even though they're the same company. They did offer to attempt to special order them, but that can take 6-8 weeks and would be full retail price. I plan to just buy them from MF and use the GC credit for everything else.

Do we need to use any kind of powered mixer or anything else for powered subs? Thanks again everyone, you have been invaluable to me in this process!
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Jamin Lynch on March 20, 2015, 11:55:54 am
Definitely looks like the Alto Blacks are the best bang for the buck - I'm trying to get a set now. Guitar Center doesn't carry them, and can't get them from Musicians Friend even though they're the same company. They did offer to attempt to special order them, but that can take 6-8 weeks and would be full retail price. I plan to just buy them from MF and use the GC credit for everything else.

Do we need to use any kind of powered mixer or anything else for powered subs? Thanks again everyone, you have been invaluable to me in this process!

Non powered mixer for powered speakers.
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Rob Spence on March 20, 2015, 12:40:27 pm
+1 on that and a little ways down the road when you have some more funds, get another pair of same subs.

Don't forget to negotiate on the price. Trade in something if you can. It helps the salesman with pricing too.

Get cables too but don't get sold on Monster cables. Expensive and not great. Hosa is fine for now.


What is going to be your sound source?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

What is the audio source? Is that included in the budget?



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Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on March 20, 2015, 04:40:05 pm
What is the audio source? Is that included in the budget?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I'm not sure what your question is Rob - we have a mixer and our DJs will be using CDJ2000s or their own equipment. Is that what you mean?
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Jamin Lynch on March 20, 2015, 05:01:46 pm
I'm not sure what your question is Rob - we have a mixer and our DJs will be using CDJ2000s or their own equipment. Is that what you mean?

I think he was asking if you have a sound board and what are you using for music? Laptop or other source?

You can just come out of the DJ's mixers. It would be best if they had XLR outputs. Some may have only dual RCA or 1/4" outputs. Better have some way to convert to XLR to go to the speakers
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Ray Aberle on March 21, 2015, 12:56:09 pm
I plan to just buy them from MF and use the GC credit for everything else.

MF and GC credit lines are through the same bank.

Apply for the MF in house line of credit. 12-18 months SAC financing just like GC.

-Ray
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Bob Gill on April 17, 2015, 04:59:58 pm
We ended up going with 2 Alto Black 18s and 2 Alto Black 15s and picked up a Driverack PA2. Sadly, the Driverack doesn't have Alto settings built in, but apparently there is a way to upload them, or manually enter crossover settings and such. Any advice on these settings guys? Thanks again for all the great advice!
Title: Re: Club System Advice JBL/QSC
Post by: Tim Weaver on April 18, 2015, 12:59:30 am

We ended up going with 2 Alto Black 18s and 2 Alto Black 15s and picked up a Driverack PA2. Sadly, the Driverack doesn't have Alto settings built in, but apparently there is a way to upload them, or manually enter crossover settings and such. Any advice on these settings guys? Thanks again for all the great advice!


Since the Alto's are built to work with each other, and, they have an app to facilitate setup, I'd say don't worry about the driverack. You don't really need it.

Honestly, I'd buy something like the behringer xr18 to control this rig with instead of a driverack.