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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: andy miller on December 18, 2014, 07:39:22 pm

Title: kick drum speaker type
Post by: andy miller on December 18, 2014, 07:39:22 pm
hi--this is my first post, so take it easy on me.
I am trying to figure out which speakers I should use for miking my kick drum.(practice and small venue)
I have 2 amp options, a crown XLI2500 and a QSC RMX1450. I just blew the woofers out of 2 peavey SP2s. they were 20 years old, and I'm sure (now anyway) that they weren't rated for kick miking.
so, now i have 2 empty shells that I can put 15" speakers in. if 15s are too big for my purposes, I also have a shell that can hold 2 12"s.
I will need new speakers, I'm sure of that, but I don't want to buy speakers that are gonna be too weak to handle my mic'd kick. I am open to any and all suggestions!
ultimately i need to find out which speakers to try out/research
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 18, 2014, 07:44:28 pm
hi--this is my first post, so take it easy on me.
I am trying to figure out which speakers I should use for miking my kick drum.(practice and small venue)
I have 2 amp options, a crown XLI2500 and a QSC RMX1450. I just blew the woofers out of 2 peavey SP2s. they were 20 years old, and I'm sure (now anyway) that they weren't rated for kick miking.
so, now i have 2 empty shells that I can put 15" speakers in. if 15s are too big for my purposes, I also have a shell that can hold 2 12"s.
I will need new speakers, I'm sure of that, but I don't want to buy speakers that are gonna be too weak to handle my mic'd kick. I am open to any and all suggestions!
ultimately i need to find out which speakers to try out/research
Until you follow the rules-nobody will respond to you.

You HAVE to use your full real name on this forum
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: andy miller on December 19, 2014, 09:43:54 am
Until you follow the rules-nobody will respond to you.

You HAVE to use your full real name on this forum

sorry, I missed that requirement. it has been adjusted.
so, any advice on my initial post?
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 19, 2014, 09:57:37 am
hi--this is my first post, so take it easy on me.
I am trying to figure out which speakers I should use for miking my kick drum.(practice and small venue)
I have 2 amp options, a crown XLI2500 and a QSC RMX1450. I just blew the woofers out of 2 peavey SP2s. they were 20 years old, and I'm sure (now anyway) that they weren't rated for kick miking.
so, now i have 2 empty shells that I can put 15" speakers in. if 15s are too big for my purposes, I also have a shell that can hold 2 12"s.
I will need new speakers, I'm sure of that, but I don't want to buy speakers that are gonna be too weak to handle my mic'd kick. I am open to any and all suggestions!
ultimately i need to find out which speakers to try out/research
Are these just for your kick drum?  or is the rest of the band to go through them also?

What is your budget?

There were different Peavey drivers used in the SP2s.  The lower powered stamped frame drivers and the much better Black Widows

What type are in your cabinets?  If Black Widows you might be better off just getting replacement baskets.
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: andy miller on December 19, 2014, 10:38:55 am
Are these just for your kick drum?  or is the rest of the band to go through them also?

What is your budget?

There were different Peavey drivers used in the SP2s.  The lower powered stamped frame drivers and the much better Black Widows

What type are in your cabinets?  If Black Widows you might be better off just getting replacement baskets.
If I had to guess, I would say that they were the lower end. they were purchased in 1994 for just $1500 for the pair.....I am not 100% on that  though. I imagine they were the lower end because they blew so easily. unless age was a factor as well.
They will just be used for the kick drum and that's it. I may eventually try to run toms through it, but that's not my primary concern right now.
Budget wise I would like to keep the whole project under $1000, but I'm a realist and only want to do this once. If I need to save up for it, then I'll do that.-

am i wrong in thinking a 15" is the best option, or would a 12" be more appropriate? I have 2 old SG 2x12" that are rugged and may be an option if 2x12 is better that a single 15". i just want the punch and I want to know that the speaker can take the power
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 19, 2014, 12:15:18 pm
If I had to guess, I would say that they were the lower end. they were purchased in 1994 for just $1500 for the pair.....I am not 100% on that  though. I imagine they were the lower end because they blew so easily. unless age was a factor as well.
They will just be used for the kick drum and that's it. I may eventually try to run toms through it, but that's not my primary concern right now.
Budget wise I would like to keep the whole project under $1000, but I'm a realist and only want to do this once. If I need to save up for it, then I'll do that.-

am i wrong in thinking a 15" is the best option, or would a 12" be more appropriate? I have 2 old SG 2x12" that are rugged and may be an option if 2x12 is better that a single 15". i just want the punch and I want to know that the speaker can take the power
It is not the size of the speaker-but how it is used and there are all different kinds of particular sized speakers-for different applications.

All 12 or 15" speakers are not created equal.

Have you actually looked at the speakers in your cabinets?

Have you measured the DC resistance of the woofers?

That would be a good start.  Photos go a long way.

Does the HF in the cabinet work? 

Have you looked at the crossovers? and the wiring?

Perhaps it is something simple.  Some of those cabinets had problems with the biamp jacks not working properly when in the passive mode and stopping the signal from even getting to the woofers.

Before you go buying new woofers, MAKE SURE that they are actually bad.

You could spend a lot of money only to find out the problem is some other place.
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Scott Harris on December 19, 2014, 12:27:15 pm
This seems abnormal.  With edrums you would typically have a drum amp.  With acoustic drums you would typically have a PA for the entire band in one of 3 configurations: small speakers on a stick carrying vocals only, large speakers on a stick in an attempt to carry all instruments including the kick drum, a large PA with either speakers on a stick over subs or speakers stacked on a sub.

Your SP2's fit into the large speakers on a stick category but you say they are only for your kick drum?  It seems that you are not giving us the whole picture.
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: andy miller on December 19, 2014, 12:51:24 pm
I guess that i just figured that everyone else has their own amped gear so I'm just trying to get my kick sound out there. I have available amps and speakers, now I'm just trying to make sure they are appropriate for my own needs. I also like the sound of an amped kick when I rehearse alone :)

Ivan-- I see what you're saying about further pinpointing the probable cause (maybe it's not the speaker)
The sound I get i try to push through the SP2 has what I can only describe as a "blown" sound. Like the power is there but the speaker thump that should be there is just a fizzle.  At the beginning of our practice session they were working fine, but about half way through they were gone....first one, then the other SP2....just a distorted fizzle sound was coming out.....maybe i fried a board in the speaker box.

Troubleshooting: I switched out amps and got the same sounds out of the SP2s.
I also hooked the amp up to another speaker ( http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/jbl-jrx225-dual-15-two-way-passive-loudspeaker-with-2000w-peak-power ) and it seemed to work fine (no fizzle). I don't want to keep the JBL hooked up to it just in case i blow it too!

My pro-active approach says "go ahead and build/design a speaker configuration that will be specifically for the kick"......that's the informatio I am trying to pull together.....speaker types, hardware, etc.
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 19, 2014, 01:27:36 pm
I guess that i just figured that everyone else has their own amped gear so I'm just trying to get my kick sound out there. I have available amps and speakers, now I'm just trying to make sure they are appropriate for my own needs. I also like the sound of an amped kick when I rehearse alone :)

Ivan-- I see what you're saying about further pinpointing the probable cause (maybe it's not the speaker)
The sound I get i try to push through the SP2 has what I can only describe as a "blown" sound. Like the power is there but the speaker thump that should be there is just a fizzle.  At the beginning of our practice session they were working fine, but about half way through they were gone....first one, then the other SP2....just a distorted fizzle sound was coming out.....maybe i fried a board in the speaker box.

Troubleshooting: I switched out amps and got the same sounds out of the SP2s.
I also hooked the amp up to another speaker ( http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/jbl-jrx225-dual-15-two-way-passive-loudspeaker-with-2000w-peak-power ) and it seemed to work fine (no fizzle). I don't want to keep the JBL hooked up to it just in case i blow it too!

My pro-active approach says "go ahead and build/design a speaker configuration that will be specifically for the kick"......that's the informatio I am trying to pull together.....speaker types, hardware, etc.
It is EXTREMELY RARE for a drummer to run his own speaker system-in many hundreds of gigs I have done, I have never seen it done-and I would push back against the whole idea-for a number of reasons.

While it "might" sound like a good idea to you, trust me-it is NOT and you are going to run into all sorts of "issues" by trying to do so.

It makes it much harder to control than if the drums are run through the whole PA.

What are you using for a PA?  Maybe that is where your efforts should be targeted.
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: andy miller on December 19, 2014, 01:46:34 pm
It is EXTREMELY RARE for a drummer to run his own speaker system-in many hundreds of gigs I have done, I have never seen it done-and I would push back against the whole idea-for a number of reasons.

While it "might" sound like a good idea to you, trust me-it is NOT and you are going to run into all sorts of "issues" by trying to do so.

It makes it much harder to control than if the drums are run through the whole PA.

What are you using for a PA?  Maybe that is where your efforts should be targeted.

most of the places we play have house PA systems, so I'm not really worried about gigging with this set up. I mostly want it for my personal use for when I play at home.
I run my kick into a small mixing board (nothing else in the board) and then into my amp.....from the amp to the speakers. that is my configuration. no x-over, no EQ, that's it.

I just want the kick sound to come out of the speakers without blowing anything up so it makes sense to me to find out what a decent speaker for the job would be.
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 19, 2014, 02:24:16 pm
Have you measured the DC resistance of the woofers?

I think they are infinite ohms now!


Steve.
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 19, 2014, 03:57:51 pm
I think they are infinite ohms now!


Steve.
I highly doubt it.

He said they were still making fizzle noises-so that would mean that the coil is still "somewhat" intact-therefore having a somewhat kinda maybe normal resistance.  I figured an actual impedance measurement would be out of the question.

But the cones are probably torn-or the spiders or the surround.

There is no way to tell what the actual problem is without seeing any photos.
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 19, 2014, 04:06:41 pm


I just want the kick sound to come out of the speakers without blowing anything up so it makes sense to me to find out what a decent speaker for the job would be.
If you want to possibly waste a lot of money first-then go ahead-it's nto my money.

You don't know what the real problem is (except that is is somewhere inside the speaker cabinet).

What if your car won't start.  So you "assume" the engine is dead.  So you buy a new engine and then find out it was simply the battery that was dead.

Now you STILL have to buy a new battery and have wasted the money on the engine. 

But if that makes you "feel better" then go ahead.

How about posting some photos of the drivers-the crossover (you will probably have to remove it from the jackplate as most of them had the parts where you can't see them without removing it.)

If you want a suggestion for a driver-then get something like the B&C 15 tbx100.

Will it work well with the current crossover and the current cabinet tuning-I have no idea-but they are pretty strong.  And that sounds like what you are "after".

Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: andy miller on December 19, 2014, 05:00:46 pm
If you want to possibly waste a lot of money first-then go ahead-it's nto my money.

You don't know what the real problem is (except that is is somewhere inside the speaker cabinet).

What if your car won't start.  So you "assume" the engine is dead.  So you buy a new engine and then find out it was simply the battery that was dead.

Now you STILL have to buy a new battery and have wasted the money on the engine. 

But if that makes you "feel better" then go ahead.

How about posting some photos of the drivers-the crossover (you will probably have to remove it from the jackplate as most of them had the parts where you can't see them without removing it.)

If you want a suggestion for a driver-then get something like the B&C 15 tbx100.

Will it work well with the current crossover and the current cabinet tuning-I have no idea-but they are pretty strong.  And that sounds like what you are "after".

I am hoping to have time to dissect the cabs this weekend. I will post pics at that time.
Believe me, it's not about "wanting" to waste money, or even trying to "feel better", it's about trying to get a little iformation on "ideal" specs, gear (possible replacement parts) that would work with what I already have.
I don't see being proactive and gaining knowledge on proper gear as anything negative.
If I were going to build it from scratch....what would i use?
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 19, 2014, 05:36:44 pm
I am hoping to have time to dissect the cabs this weekend. I will post pics at that time.
Believe me, it's not about "wanting" to waste money, or even trying to "feel better", it's about trying to get a little iformation on "ideal" specs, gear (possible replacement parts) that would work with what I already have.
I don't see being proactive and gaining knowledge on proper gear as anything negative.
If I were going to build it from scratch....what would i use?
You ask about "replacement parts-yet you don't know what is wrong or broken.

Makes it kinda hard.

If were were to 'Start from scratch-what exactly does that mean?

Build your own cabinet?  Do you have tools/experience to do so?

Or just to buy something already made?

You mentioned no crossover or DSP or eq.  As a general rule you will be SORELY disappointed if you run a speaker full range that is expected to be able to reproduce the kick drum at a decent loud level.

You will be asking "where is the bass".  It is there-but being masked by the other freq.

it gets a bit deeper REAL quick

Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 20, 2014, 01:00:03 am
Quote
Andy said:

"I guess that i just figured that everyone else has their own amped gear so I'm just trying to get my kick sound out there. "

Now you say this is for your house that you like the sound of an amplified kick.

As Ivan mentioned, I can't imagine another musician let alone a sound guy would let you put that gear on the stage to just the kick.  Outside the sound engineers control your microphone would capture other sounds on the stage and amplify them.  This would blend with the mail PA create a sonic disaster.  Also it could drive into feedback and you might not notice quick enough.

What sound are you looking for?  Do you want the visceral "wump" of the low frequencies produced by the drum itself or do you want the click of the beater?  Some type of compression and EQ will more than likely be needed to produce the effect you are looking for.

Since it's just you position the speaker right behind you to minimize free space loss.  EQ will help you tune the sound to what you want.

More than likely you don't need a full range speaker.

As far as diagnosing what's wrong with your drivers I have nothing to add.

Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 20, 2014, 02:34:45 am
More than likely you don't need a full range speaker.

With the SP2s in this scenario, they would probably be better if connected to the low input rather than the full range input, taking the 22A driver out of the equation.


Steve,
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: andy miller on December 20, 2014, 08:47:34 am
You ask about "replacement parts-yet you don't know what is wrong or broken.

Makes it kinda hard.

If were were to 'Start from scratch-what exactly does that mean?

Build your own cabinet?  Do you have tools/experience to do so?

Or just to buy something already made?



ok, let's take sound guys and live venues completely out of the equation and assume this setup will never leave my basement. I got it......not a good idea with sound guys and stuff......I wouldn't have a need to take anything other than my kit to a place with a house PA anyway, right? ....right.

Steve--I am looking for that 'wump' at home.

I have two SG 2x12 cabs that are not in use(hopefully I attached the image properly). so I won't be building anything. I really just need to know what type of components you guys might suggest.....speakers, etc.
although I have been gigging and playing out for about 20 years, i never really got into much of the sound distribution part of things and I am looking to learn.
things like: what properties make for better sub speakers? is a crossover necessary? if so, recommendations? 

Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 20, 2014, 09:30:44 am
Andy...

Equipment aside, I would advise against using a setup such as you describe for one reason:

You'll get used to it.

Then when you get out of your basement/practice space it's not going to sound the same/right to you.  Result?  Happy practice, frustrated performance.

Good luck.
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: andy miller on December 20, 2014, 05:25:10 pm
ok, so I started trying to troubleshoot the problem with the SP2ti.  i think the problem is with the woofer. i searched it for tears, but there are none. i did notice a grinding sound when I pushed on the cone. this would explain the "fizzle" sound I was getting as the grinding intensifies with the initial thud, then vibrates out with the sound follow through.

wondering what the grind sound means now. that's about as good as I can describe it. when the cone moves it should be smooth and this woofer is not.
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: andy miller on December 20, 2014, 05:32:11 pm
ok, so I started trying to troubleshoot the problem with the SP2ti.  i think the problem is with the woofer. i searched it for tears, but there are none. i did notice a grinding sound when I pushed on the cone. this would explain the "fizzle" sound I was getting as the grinding intensifies with the initial thud, then vibrates out with the sound follow through.

wondering what the grind sound means now. that's about as good as I can describe it. when the cone moves it should be smooth and this woofer is not.

I removed the magnet. the grinding is coming from where the metal ring behind the cone fits into the magnet
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 20, 2014, 05:37:25 pm
I removed the magnet. the grinding is coming from where the metal ring behind the cone fits into the magnet
Are you talking about the voice coil?  What do the winding look like?

Photos will help a lot.

What numbers/names are on the speaker?
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: andy miller on December 20, 2014, 05:54:36 pm
Are you talking about the voice coil?  What do the winding look like?

Photos will help a lot.

What numbers/names are on the speaker?

only number i can find is on the back of the cone, 76010018.
...and ID2 written in marker on the basket. that led me to this: http://www.muzeekworld.com/11870-McCauley-1D2.115-SB-Subwoofer,-Single-15-22

Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: andy miller on December 20, 2014, 06:34:22 pm
only number i can find is on the back of the cone, 76010018.
...and ID2 written in marker on the basket. that led me to this: http://www.muzeekworld.com/11870-McCauley-1D2.115-SB-Subwoofer,-Single-15-22

FIXED IT!!!!

ok, so i mentioned that the cabs were like 20 years old. a foam guard in the back of the speaker got so old it does what foam coverings on mics do, it disintegrated and little pieces were dirtying up the coil gap and making an odd rub when the speaker moved. i got in there with some scotch tape and a can of air and got it all cleaned up. now it is working as good as new!

thanks to everyone for their patience and help!
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 20, 2014, 08:04:13 pm
FIXED IT!!!!

ok, so i mentioned that the cabs were like 20 years old. a foam guard in the back of the speaker got so old it does what foam coverings on mics do, it disintegrated and little pieces were dirtying up the coil gap and making an odd rub when the speaker moved. i got in there with some scotch tape and a can of air and got it all cleaned up. now it is working as good as new!

thanks to everyone for their patience and help!
I'm glad you didn't go ahead and spend a bunch of money-when the problem was very simple.

As with any troubleshooting-FIRST figure out what the REAL problem is, THEN figure out what it is going to take to fix it.

BTW the speaker is most likely a Black Widow.

McCauley also makes speakers with removable baskets, the two are very close to being interchangeable.

Some of the best subs I used (back in the day) were a very custom recone that we joked as "JBMcEavey"

They had Peavey black widow magnets mounted on McCauley frames and had a JBL recone kit in them.
Title: Re: kick drum speaker type
Post by: Craig Hauber on December 23, 2014, 01:15:54 am
Andy...

Equipment aside, I would advise against using a setup such as you describe for one reason:

You'll get used to it.

Then when you get out of your basement/practice space it's not going to sound the same/right to you.  Result?  Happy practice, frustrated performance.

Good luck.

He might find the opposite,  that a quality drum fill monitor provided at the show forever ruins his rehearsal system for him afterwards  :)
(seen it happen at festivals I've run)