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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => AC Power and Grounding => Topic started by: Frank DeWitt on October 29, 2014, 01:04:36 pm

Title: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Frank DeWitt on October 29, 2014, 01:04:36 pm
Interesting that this once existed.
Note, I am not recommending this. Don't do it. It is not a good idea. I am not in favor of it. Don't get any ideas. 
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/4aYAAOSw8cNUUCg4/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/jukAAOSwR0JUUCgS/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/gBIAAOSwY45UUCgc/$_57.JPG)
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on October 29, 2014, 01:17:19 pm
Is it UL listed?  If so I would be tempted to use just long enough to see the inspector stutter and stammer and try to find a way to make me get rid of it!
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Keith Broughton on October 29, 2014, 01:25:55 pm
Is it UL listed?  If so I would be tempted to use just long enough to see the inspector stutter and stammer and try to find a way to make me get rid of it!

At first, I thought it was 2 -40 amp poles to 2 outlets !!!....but I see it's 1 pole only and fused at 15 amps.
Other than the missing ground pin, why would it be unsafe?
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on October 29, 2014, 04:41:40 pm
At first, I thought it was 2 -40 amp poles to 2 outlets !!!....but I see it's 1 pole only and fused at 15 amps.
Other than the missing ground pin, why would it be unsafe?

Agreed. Really nothing different than a distro with a range plug and proper OCPD for the branch circuits.

However, this fits in a "3-wire" range receptacle. That means the center pin of the receptacle is either ground or neutral -- for most ranges, both chassis and neutral are bonded to this terminal. The question then becomes, how is this ground/neutral terminal connected to the service panel? Is the conductor a separate, insulated conductor? Is it an uninsulated conductor inside the cable jacket? Is it continuous back to the panel? Are there any other bond points between the service panel and the receptacle? The answers to those questions would determine the suitability of this adapter. Whether or not the adapter is safe really isn't the question -- if it's in good repair and used as the manufacturer intended, it's safe. The question of safety has more to do with the receptacle and the wiring leading up to it. If the adapter did not have a fuse, or if the fuse was not the one specified for the device, then it would be unsafe.

A 16AWG extension cord with no integral OCPD connected to a 20A circuit is less safe than this device.
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Frank DeWitt on October 29, 2014, 08:59:23 pm
Here is another odd one.  I bought this one for my collection.

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTYwWDEyODA=/z/iyQAAOSwd4tTsx9L/$_57.JPG)
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 29, 2014, 09:39:11 pm
You find some cool stuff, Frank.  Thanks for sharing the gems with us.
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on October 29, 2014, 11:28:35 pm
Out of curiosity-2 silver screws and 2 brass.  I assume the brass screws are for a switch hot, with the pilot lamp to the switch leg are the silver screws switch or just feed thru?
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Mike Sokol on October 29, 2014, 11:50:16 pm
Frank,

You need one of these original Edison outlets. I've seen a few a them in old houses quite a few years ago, but not lately. 

Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Jerome Malsack on October 30, 2014, 11:37:51 am
Saw  several of them in service at. 

The Liriodendron Foundation, Inc
502 West Gordon Steet, Bel Air, MD 21014:

Question is if the NVC was lighting up ??

And on the dryer plug the outlets are most likely not polarized and sized ??
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Steve M Smith on October 30, 2014, 12:09:08 pm
Interesting that this once existed.

Looks like that one still does exist.


Steve
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Frank DeWitt on October 30, 2014, 06:08:20 pm
Out of curiosity-2 silver screws and 2 brass.  I assume the brass screws are for a switch hot, with the pilot lamp to the switch leg are the silver screws switch or just feed thru?

I just bought it, haven't received it yet, but I will let you know.
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Frank DeWitt on October 30, 2014, 06:28:50 pm
Frank,

You need one of these original Edison outlets. I've seen a few a them in old houses quite a few years ago, but not lately.

I have some of those.  For those that don't know,  They were used because the 2 blade outlet that we know had not been invented yet.  Early portable appliances like irons and toasters had a Edison screw plug on them,  The fancy ones allowed the shell (Threads) to be turned without twisting the cord.  The outlet you show would have been available in 3 setups.  Just the outlet.  Open the door, insert your finger,  The setup you show, where the switch usually switched the outlet, and a much rarer plate with a switch, a pilot light and the outlet.

Most of the plates you find on Ebay have the door broken off because people would screw in an adapter, snap off the door, and call it good.   

Now for something truly frightening Think about this competitor to our existing outlets.  Yes,  You open the little doors by sticking your finger in the hole. 

BTW if anyone has a plug for one of these we need to talk.

BBTW these are on Ebay right now  (Not mine)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTQ2OFgxNjAw/z/UaIAAOSwcu5UPHjm/$_57.JPG)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMTYz/z/~A8AAOSwF1dUPHL6/$_57.JPG?rt=nc)
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on October 31, 2014, 12:22:53 am
Now for something truly frightening Think about this competitor to our existing outlets.  Yes,  You open the little doors by sticking your finger in the hole.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTQ2OFgxNjAw/z/UaIAAOSwcu5UPHjm/$_57.JPG)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMTYz/z/~A8AAOSwF1dUPHL6/$_57.JPG?rt=nc)

Ah, but the plate probably wasn't grounded, so the risk of shock would be minimized to across your finger, if you happened to contact both terminals. Unpleasant, but probably not too likely to cause injury.
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Keith Broughton on October 31, 2014, 08:26:47 am
I have some of those.  For those that don't know,  They were used because the 2 blade outlet that we know had not been invented yet.  Early portable appliances like irons and toasters had a Edison screw plug on them,  The fancy ones allowed the shell (Threads) to be turned without twisting the cord.  The outlet you show would have been available in 3 setups.  Just the outlet.  Open the door, insert your finger,  The setup you show, where the switch usually switched the outlet, and a much rarer plate with a switch, a pilot light and the outlet.

Most of the plates you find on Ebay have the door broken off because people would screw in an adapter, snap off the door, and call it good.   

Now for something truly frightening Think about this competitor to our existing outlets.  Yes,  You open the little doors by sticking your finger in the hole. 

BTW if anyone has a plug for one of these we need to talk.

BBTW these are on Ebay right now  (Not mine)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTQ2OFgxNjAw/z/UaIAAOSwcu5UPHjm/$_57.JPG)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMTYz/z/~A8AAOSwF1dUPHL6/$_57.JPG?rt=nc)

OUCH!!! :o
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Frank DeWitt on November 01, 2014, 01:14:24 pm
Out of curiosity-2 silver screws and 2 brass.  I assume the brass screws are for a switch hot, with the pilot lamp to the switch leg are the silver screws switch or just feed thru?

Lower Silver  Neutral in
Lower Brass  Hot in
With switch off neutral and hot are disconnected from the bulb, outlet, and the top two screws.

With switch on all the above are connected.  In other words, both the neutral and the hot are switched.  Of course it is possible to wire hot to the lower brass and neutral to the upper silver and thus not switch the hot.  I have a active and a non wired desplay.  This one will go on the non powered with no plate so people can see how it is wired.
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on November 01, 2014, 10:27:34 pm
While we are on the history lesson, here is a fuse panel I removed from service a few years ago. IIRC, it was mounted in metal box that I transformed into a j-box (might have been wood and I installed j boxes?).  The "board" looks like polished granite though it is man made like concrete.  I imagine feeling around for that blown fuse in the dark would have been interesting.

Thought I was the only one crazy enough to keep "junk" like this around.
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Mike Sokol on November 01, 2014, 10:47:32 pm
Thought I was the only one crazy enough to keep "junk" like this around.

It's a thing of (sniff).... beauty.  :'(
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on November 02, 2014, 01:35:54 am
The "board" looks like polished granite though it is man made like concrete.

There are a few natural stones with insulative properties, but I didn't think granite was one. It might depend on the mineral content.

It seems like marble, soapstone, and slate may have been used as substrates for electrical panels, but I'm not real sure. I do know that mica was used as an insulator before Bakelite and other plastics became available.
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 02, 2014, 01:29:51 am
The two pole knife switch is sweet. Use a relay with a 12v coil to run the lights in your shop.  Great conversation piece.

To be Mike S. Safety approved put a diode across the coil to short out any spikes generated from the field collapse. 
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Mike Sokol on November 02, 2014, 08:54:10 am
To be Mike S. Safety approved put a diode across the coil to short out any spikes generated from the field collapse.

Yup, that would work. You should also install a resistor (100 ohms?) in series with the diode for the energy to turn into heat. Without that, the relay can actually "hang up" in the on position for a few hundred milliseconds while the current circulates. Really cool looking (if you're into geeky things).

IIRC, a DC relay coil can generate up to 10X the steady state voltage when the field collapses, which implies that 12-volts DC would generate a 120-volt pulse when the switch opens. I've actually felt that pulse a few times, and it's a pretty good "bite".
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Keith Broughton on November 02, 2014, 02:46:03 pm
It's a thing of (sniff).... beauty.  :'(
Turns out Mike has a sensitive side.  ;D
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 02, 2014, 04:18:03 pm
Yup, that would work. You should also install a resistor (100 ohms?) in series with the diode for the energy to turn into heat. Without that, the relay can actually "hang up" in the on position for a few hundred milliseconds while the current circulates. Really cool looking (if you're into geeky things).

IIRC, a DC relay coil can generate up to 10X the steady state voltage when the field collapses, which implies that 12-volts DC would generate a 120-volt pulse when the switch opens. I've actually felt that pulse a few times, and it's a pretty good "bite".

Good call on the bleed off resistor.   Yes, you can feel the bite, especially on physically larger relays that have to have a larger electromagnet to move a complex mechanical assembly. 

Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on November 02, 2014, 04:42:41 pm
Simpler is always better-since I am using an AC source, why rectify it and create headaches needing a diode and resistor to mitigate?  Why not just a 120v to 12 v transformer and a relay with a 12 VAC coil?

BTW, the two black boxes are 2 pole disconnect switches.  Given these examples as well as Frank's switch above it seems it was common to switch both legs.

Of course, if you read through the original version of the NEC (available on Mike Holt's site), the concept of neutral apparently was not yet established.
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Frank DeWitt on November 02, 2014, 05:55:20 pm
Simpler is always better-since I am using an AC source, why rectify it and create headaches needing a diode and resistor to mitigate?  Why not just a 120v to 12 v transformer and a relay with a 12 VAC coil?


Besides turning on the shop the relay could start a little MP3 player that plays ZAP!  HUMMMMMMMM.  ant flash a very bright light just once.
Title: Re: History Range outlet to Duplex addapter
Post by: Mike Sokol on November 02, 2014, 06:16:46 pm
Besides turning on the shop the relay could start a little MP3 player that plays ZAP!  HUMMMMMMMM.  ant flash a very bright light just once.

Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m7KbVjj7kc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m7KbVjj7kc)