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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Tim Martin on August 19, 2014, 02:02:16 pm

Title: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Tim Martin on August 19, 2014, 02:02:16 pm
 We recently remodeled our sanctuary and have a fully capable Presonus board and huge amps ready to power a set of speakers that will give clear sound (especially for regular speaking voice -- sermons) We are traditional regarding worship, so don't need huge concert-like speakers. We actually would like some sort of cluster or row of smaller speakers that would be aesthetically pleasing above the pulpit somehow. The room is 40'wide x 30' deep, with 14' high acoustic tile ceiling. We have carpet, padded chair seating and drywall walls. Budget? $1000-2000? We just want something to help amplify the  voices of the pastor and worship leader. They both use wireless mics. Please direct me to some speakers that we should consider.

btw, we are interested in something that has short vertical footprint. More of a horizontal arrangement as they will be hung from ceiling and we don't want them hanging down very far if possible. (8"-10" max?)
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Corey Scogin on August 19, 2014, 02:21:32 pm
We recently remodeled our sanctuary and have a fully capable Presonus board and huge amps ready to power a set of speakers that will give clear sound (especially for regular speaking voice -- sermons) We are traditional regarding worship, so don't need huge concert-like speakers. We actually would like some sort of cluster or row of smaller speakers that would be aesthetically pleasing above the pulpit somehow. The room is 40'wide x 30' deep, with 14' high acoustic tile ceiling. We have carpet, padded chair seating and drywall walls. Budget? $1000-2000? We just want something to help amplify the  voices of the pastor and worship leader. They both use wireless mics. Please direct me to some speakers that we should consider.

btw, we are interested in something that has short vertical footprint. More of a horizontal arrangement as they will be hung from ceiling and we don't want them hanging down very far if possible. (8"-10" max?)

Tim,

If you're going to be flying speakers, you really need someone who knows what they are doing as Ivan stated in your last thread on the same topic: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,149640.msg1373561.html#msg1373561

Where are you located?  Maybe an installer on this forum is close and willing to take a look and make a recommendation.  It would be well worth your investment to have a local installer choose the right speaker arrangement and do the installation.

Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 19, 2014, 03:25:18 pm
In a 1200 sq ft room with a 14 ft ceiling you shouldn't need "huge amps" and speakers for traditional services.  Heck, you should be able to carry that room unamplified if those speaking are on a raised platform.

I would suggest you consider using a pair of small speakers mounted considerably ahead of the speaking platform and delaying them back to the pulpit.  The concept would be to enhance and support the natural voice rather than to amplify.  Check out JBL's install models.

Of course, your and my understanding of "traditional" service may well differ...and that really is a small room. 
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Tim Martin on August 19, 2014, 04:47:49 pm
I realize that we are over equipped, amp-wise, and the board is way overkill too. But it was all bought a few years ago by a well intentioned member... So if we go with smaller speakers midway back, maybe some flush mount ceiling ones? We do have quite a few elderly members and it's for them that we are wanting to amplify. Btw, at the rear of the room there is a large overflow area with 8' ceilings with ceiling mount speakers throughout, so that area is covered.

If smaller speakers are suggested, do you have some in mind? And what do you mean by delaying them back to the pulpit?

What about something like these http://www.electrovoice.com/family.php?id=162 (low profile) or maybe a couple of these with their wide range http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/wideline_series/

As far as installation, we are in the middle of nowhere, and but have contractors who attend the church who can help with safe installation.

Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Tim Martin on August 19, 2014, 04:50:37 pm
I shouldn't be so quick to assume that no installer would be in this area. The church is in Okanogan, WA. North Central Washington. If any installers might be nearby, that would be wonderful, and I think we would be happy to hire you to help us. Please contact me note2tim@hotmail.com
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 19, 2014, 05:30:29 pm
You want to apply delay to any speakers placed ahead of or in front of the initial sound source so that when the original sound waves arrive at that point the reinforcement comes out of the speakers in sync or even up to 6 milliseconds after.

This aids in clarity and takes into account the precedence effect so that the sound  is associated pscho-accoustically with those who are speaking...rather than just coming out of the loudspeakers.

You should also be delay-syncing the ceiling speakers in the overflow space to get them in time with the sound in the main room...as much as possible.
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 19, 2014, 05:58:08 pm
I realize that we are over equipped, amp-wise, and the board is way overkill too. But it was all bought a few years ago by a well intentioned member... So if we go with smaller speakers midway back, maybe some flush mount ceiling ones? We do have quite a few elderly members and it's for them that we are wanting to amplify. Btw, at the rear of the room there is a large overflow area with 8' ceilings with ceiling mount speakers throughout, so that area is covered.

If smaller speakers are suggested, do you have some in mind? And what do you mean by delaying them back to the pulpit?

What about something like these http://www.electrovoice.com/family.php?id=162 (low profile) or maybe a couple of these with their wide range http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/wideline_series/

As far as installation, we are in the middle of nowhere, and but have contractors who attend the church who can help with safe installation.

Couple of things, the widelines are large venue line arrays.  Just the hardware is out of your budget plus you use the room for blasting kidney stones when church was not in service.

Seriously, don't focus on a product, focus on a solution.  You have a large input mixer yet you indicated only 2 microphone inputs?

It was also brought up, and rightly so, that in such a small room you have to factor in the source of the voice. 

Do I understand that no amplified music will be played in this space?

Lastly you never told us how your other project turned out.  It's like ripping the end out of a book. 
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Tim Martin on August 19, 2014, 08:48:38 pm
Ok, sorry about that. Let me fill you in. We ended up taking the suggestion of the group here and putting in acoustic tile in the ceiling. It's made the sanctuary not nearly so "hot" as it would have been with a hard drywall ceiling. Thanks for that. We also decided not to try to keep using the big speakers we had in the corners before. We just want something smaller, newer, less obtrusive to go in that new sanctuary...

As far as inputs, we place for numerous other mics, but for now, only use one other mic and a acoustic guitar pick up as far as inputs. We also use the system for showing dvds using the projector, so I guess that's the other use we need to allow for. It's always possible that we will plug in a keyboard and other instruments in the future. So maybe that helps fill out the story a little bit more. Any more thoughts out there?
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 19, 2014, 11:42:41 pm
It's still a small room.  I liked the idea of a mid room hang, maybe not mid but forward of the stage.  You really don't want to overpower the room.  Maybe two 10" center hung and splayed.  Run it through prediction software and see.  With acoustic and vocal, go for quality.  If vocal clarity is a problem in the first two rows put some small hot spot monitors.

I don't like to hang powered speakers but the QSC K10's would work. The AP5102 is a good speaker and I don't care what anyone says the Mackie 200's are also a very nice 10"

The key is the design....Center hung...back from stage.....Downtilted properly.

Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 19, 2014, 11:54:03 pm
Check out the JBL CBT series.  One speaker will cover the space.
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Tim Martin on August 20, 2014, 03:04:30 am
Thanks for the suggestions.

Are there any others that seem like good options that are more horizontal (wouldn't hang down so much?)
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Lee Buckalew on August 20, 2014, 11:39:10 am
Thanks for the suggestions.

Are there any others that seem like good options that are more horizontal (wouldn't hang down so much?)

The 8" - 10" drop from your initial post?
No, not and cover evenly front to rear.

There are some smaller cabinets that have broad close in coverage that tapers as you move up in the horn pattern.  There are also constant curvature arrays like the CBT mentioned that will do a good job when positioned correctly.
If you were to yes point source/trap cabinets you could hang front cabinets and then a delay further back for even coverage and short height.
Coverage and speaker placement will depend greatly on where your seating is/the area that you need to cover.

Lee
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Tim Martin on August 20, 2014, 11:59:38 am
I like the idea of having 3 short banks of speakers more than having one big cluster hanging way down. Any suggestions of particular speakers that would function well in this arrangement?

 However, I am intrigued also with the CBT idea since it would only be one narrow tower of speakers to cover everything. That might work as well. They looked like they all were designed to either just sit on the floor or be wall mounted. Does anyone know if they can fly as well?
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 20, 2014, 12:20:06 pm
One of the more expensive CBT's will do your room.  They fly and come in white finish.

Using a single source will give you the most clarity.  multiple speakers yield multiple reflections and arrival times as well as suffering from cancellations in the sound field.
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Tim Martin on August 20, 2014, 12:29:50 pm
Thanks Dick. In a room our size, how far in front of the pulpit would you suggest hanging that CBT?
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 20, 2014, 12:50:19 pm
Thanks Dick. In a room our size, how far in front of the pulpit would you suggest hanging that CBT?

Make a drawing to scale and simply overlay a template representing the coverage angle of the speaker(s) you're considering.  Determine the speaker placement from this.  But understand that the polar plots of speakers (and microphones)  will have frequency dependent variations.  Coverage will be wider in the LF.  Vocal intelligibility kind of resides in the 2.5-4K region, so I'd look at the coverage angle of speakers in that frequency range to determine your placement.

I usually use 3.5K as the determinant.   
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Tom Young on August 20, 2014, 04:45:16 pm
The CBT 70J/E might not be a bad choice given your needs and restrictions. I recommend this because it has enough power handling, output and frequency response to satisfy your needs. Using the extended version equates to more power handling, lower frequency response and lower pattern control. These are all desirable things.

In case you haven't noticed, the fullrange cabinet provides asymmetrical coverage. I think it is 18-degrees up and 27-degrees down when set to the 45-degree coverage angle.

You will need to tilt the column down in order to cover the nearest seats. You will also need to select the 45-degree coverage angle.

Use JBL's free coverage "modeling" application and, after entering your room's dimensions, etc., you can determine what the aiming angle will be.

This array (column) does not weigh much, by our standards. But you still need a pro to rig and suspend this. Among other issues, he/she will ensure that you use the correct, rated hardware *and* that your building suspension point(s) are "sound".
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 20, 2014, 04:54:16 pm
Among other issues, he/she will ensure that you use the correct, rated hardware *and* that your building suspension point(s) are "sound".

I always wondered what they meant when they told me they were putting in the "sound" points next.  ::)

Mac
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on August 20, 2014, 06:45:14 pm
I always wondered what they meant when they told me they were putting in the "sound" points next.  ::)

Mac

And should you get concerned when the riggers tell you that the suspension points are "to light"?

Mark C.
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Tom Young on August 20, 2014, 09:38:48 pm
Guess a guy can't cut a break here, no how.

Rough house  ;-)
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: eric lenasbunt on August 22, 2014, 09:59:27 pm
I have had very good results with the EV EVU 2082/95 is smaller rooms like yours. Rotate the horns so they line up best in your small room. Well within budget too. They come in white and have a mount included, though not sure if that is helpful for your space, though shoulder bolts are available as well.

**disclaimer, get a pro to rig it for you**
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: Tim Martin on September 05, 2014, 05:50:59 pm
Ok, so we have settled on getting two JBL Control29 AV. So now the question to get opinions on quickly. Will we get better sound for a pastor's sermon if we mount them above and slightly ahead of him (2 in center aimed downward) or in the front corners of the room (aimed inward) Reminder of room dimensions. 40'w x 30'deep x 14 high, with pulpit on the 40' wall, drywall walls, acoustic tile ceiling, carpet floors, fabric chairs.
Title: Re: Church Speaker Suggestions
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on September 05, 2014, 06:03:03 pm
Ok, so we have settled on getting two JBL Control29 AV. So now the question to get opinions on quickly. Will we get better sound for a pastor's sermon if we mount them above and slightly ahead of him (2 in center aimed downward) or in the front corners of the room (aimed inward) Reminder of room dimensions. 40'w x 30'deep x 14 high, with pulpit on the 40' wall, drywall walls, acoustic tile ceiling, carpet floors, fabric chairs.

Never in corners...