ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Frances Fisher on March 26, 2014, 11:05:19 pm

Title: turbosound
Post by: Frances Fisher on March 26, 2014, 11:05:19 pm
turbosound seems poised to become popular in a bigger way
just your thoughts
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Ray Aberle on March 27, 2014, 12:25:45 am
turbosound seems poised to become popular in a bigger way
just your thoughts
Hmmmmm. Care to elaborate? Starting new discussions=good. Doing so in a way that doesn't give anyone a clue as to what you're talking about=maybe not so ideal...  :-\

-Ray
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Michael A. Yates on March 27, 2014, 01:00:32 am

Hmmmmm. Care to elaborate? Starting new discussions=good. Doing so in a way that doesn't give anyone a clue as to what you're talking about=maybe not so ideal...  :-\

-Ray

Just what I was thinking....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Ray Aberle on March 27, 2014, 01:26:40 am
Just what I was thinking....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I mean, call me crazy, but.... ya know, help us to engage in conversation. Haha.

So, I'll take you up- No, no, not at all. Give me a nice phat JBL, EV, or l'acoustics array any day.

Whaddaya say?

-Ray
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Peter Morris on March 27, 2014, 02:13:13 am
I mean, call me crazy, but.... ya know, help us to engage in conversation. Haha.

So, I'll take you up- No, no, not at all. Give me a nice phat JBL, EV, or l'acoustics array any day.

Whaddaya say?

-Ray

Ok .... I'm hoping Turbo does become more popular, and if Music Group gets it right it will.
 
I have their TFA600 line-array and TMW112 &115 wedges Ö and itís all great stuff, certainly up there with the best, but Turbo being owned by Music Group makes me very nervous. I'm not sure they understand the Pro world as well as they understand the MI world.

Iím hoping the purchase of Turbosound was not just to legitimise a bunch of Turbo branded Behringer boxes at the expense of Turbosound's concert heritage.

The TFA600s & TMW112s etc. were relatively new products but they have already been replaced with new models, so much for expanding my line-array plan.  I guess I will have to see if I can find some used boxes or dump mine and get something else :-\

Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Evan Hunter on March 27, 2014, 08:50:41 am
Ok .... I'm hoping Turbo does become more popular, and if Music Group gets it right it will.
 
I have their TFA600 line-array and TMW112 &115 wedges Ö and itís all great stuff, certainly up there with the best, but Turbo being owned by Music Group makes me very nervous. I'm not sure they understand the Pro world as well as they understand the MI world.

Iím hoping the purchase of Turbosound was not just to legitimise a bunch of Turbo branded Behringer boxes at the expense of Turbosound's concert heritage.

The TFA600s & TMW112s etc. were relatively new products but they have already been replaced with new models, so much for expanding my line-array plan.  I guess I will have to see if I can find some used boxes or dump mine and get something else :-\

I agree that Turbosound makes some of the best products out there.... Its just that they took too long to do it. After Flash/Flood they entered an MI guitar center level and then leveled out for a while. L acoustics, D&B, JBL and others all saturated the market with "new technology" and won over the hearts of many major players. Now Turbosound is starting to bring back some innovation and some really cool products all across the board. I too hope that Music Group doesn't use them as a hub just to get more MI products out the door.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Guy Graham on March 27, 2014, 10:24:15 am
turbosound seems poised to become popular in a bigger way
just your thoughts

My thoughts are how anyone or anything could be poised to become popular in a smaller way?

Increased usage by the midget and child market perhaps ...
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Jonathan Hiemberg on March 27, 2014, 12:46:38 pm

I recently put a couple of turbosound milan m12's in an install on monitor duty. The price/size/weight were right (all small). I certainly wasn't displeased with them, but they didn't impress me in any significant way.


I've recently noticed sweetwater is carrying another, slightly 'upscale' line of these powered cabs - has anyone tried them?
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Frances Fisher on March 27, 2014, 02:29:58 pm
Just what I was thinking....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
all right elaborating as requested
comparison of the Milan IQ etc. to the k series and prx
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Frances Fisher on March 27, 2014, 02:47:59 pm
I agree that Turbosound makes some of the best products out there.... Its just that they took too long to do it. After Flash/Flood they entered an MI guitar center level and then leveled out for a while. L acoustics, D&B, JBL and others all saturated the market with "new technology" and won over the hearts of many major players. Now Turbosound is starting to bring back some innovation and some really cool products all across the board. I too hope that Music Group doesn't use them as a hub just to get more MI products out the door.
they didn't mess up Midas to baddly
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 27, 2014, 03:00:59 pm
they didn't mess up Midas to baddly

It depends on what one considers "mess up."  Music Group dropped prices on much of the Midas line by 30%.  That creates a real loss of value for owners looking to sell or for providers who quote rental prices as a percentage of new cost.  Both are examples of lowering costs also lowering revenue.  Not good.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Frances Fisher on March 27, 2014, 03:11:25 pm
It depends on what one considers "mess up."  Music Group dropped prices on much of the Midas line by 30%.  That creates a real loss of value for owners looking to sell or for providers who quote rental prices as a percentage of new cost.  Both are examples of lowering costs also lowering revenue.  Not good.
but the brand itself retained integrity and moved into the modern market
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 27, 2014, 03:12:30 pm
Never mind...
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: James A. Griffin on March 27, 2014, 05:30:45 pm
Never mind...

You say it best when you say nothing at all.

;-)
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Frances Fisher on March 27, 2014, 05:54:57 pm
You say it best when you say nothing at all.

;-)
hey i just want to understand whats wrong with cheap
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Ray Aberle on March 27, 2014, 08:24:35 pm
hey i just want to understand whats wrong with cheap
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking.

I would prefer to do business with a company that is looking out for my best, long-term interests.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Caleb Dueck on March 27, 2014, 10:38:17 pm
hey i just want to understand whats wrong with cheap
Cheap typically means cut corners, whether visible or not.  Longevity is often one of the first things to go.

Cheap means iffy until proven.

Cheap is for toys and disposable income, not tools your family's well being depends on.

Typed on a virtual keyboard. 

Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Frances Fisher on March 27, 2014, 10:44:50 pm
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking.

I would prefer to do business with a company that is looking out for my best, long-term interests.
then i hear you loud and clear i just had a hard time mentally connecting music group with a company like midas
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 27, 2014, 10:59:59 pm
then i hear you loud and clear i just had a hard time mentally connecting music group with a company like midas

And a bunch of other brands less near and dear to some forum users...

Think about this, if you'd purchased a Midas Pro6 only 3 months ago and financed it through your bank, you could find yourself having to come up with a big bunch of money, RIGHT NOW, when the value of the collateral fell 30% overnight.

Aside from those considerations a low purchase price, in and of itself, does not equal value to the purchaser.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Peter Morris on March 27, 2014, 11:59:23 pm
And a bunch of other brands less near and dear to some forum users...

Think about this, if you'd purchased a Midas Pro6 only 3 months ago and financed it through your bank, you could find yourself having to come up with a big bunch of money, RIGHT NOW, when the value of the collateral fell 30% overnight.

Aside from those considerations a low purchase price, in and of itself, does not equal value to the purchaser.

My take is slightly different Ė I bought a Midas last year and the price has come down, but as a result of Midas becoming more affordable they are becoming more popular and are appearing on more riders.  So Iím now getting more hires and making more money; but if you bought one the week before the price drop you would have to feel a bit pi$$ed off.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Adam S Haro on March 31, 2014, 09:18:07 pm
I noticed the new Turbo iq series powered speakers originally appeared on the Behringer site with Behringer logos but have now been rebadged Turbo. Normally I would feel more confident buying a Turbo product than a Behringer but if they are interchangeable I might be inclined to pass on both.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: chuck clark on April 01, 2014, 01:03:30 am
The brand I like the least is Behringer. The brand I like best is Turbosound. No wonder I'm bi-polar! :o
  All will be forgiven if they re-introduce the TXD series. The 15 M is like a JBL 712M but with a 15" for more low end, great on bass, keys and -on top of a subwoofer make a lovely compact club system. If they could make the 12" monitor with the same horn so you have a similar sonic character and improve the subs with updated large excursion 18's with 5 or 6" voice coils so they have stupid amounts of output I could add to my current system and be very pleased.
I SOooo hope they don't blow this and come out w/ a bunch of "me too" crap.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Chuck Simon on April 01, 2014, 10:01:35 am
And a bunch of other brands less near and dear to some forum users...

Think about this, if you'd purchased a Midas Pro6 only 3 months ago and financed it through your bank, you could find yourself having to come up with a big bunch of money, RIGHT NOW, when the value of the collateral fell 30% overnight.

Aside from those considerations a low purchase price, in and of itself, does not equal value to the purchaser.

Does anyone really expect a company to keep prices artificially higher(and less competitive) than they need to be in order to keep old customers happy with their investments?  That's not going to happen, and as technology increases businesses need to plan for it!
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 01, 2014, 12:34:20 pm
Does anyone really expect a company to keep prices artificially higher(and less competitive) than they need to be in order to keep old customers happy with their investments?  That's not going to happen, and as technology increases businesses need to plan for it!

Getting customers to PAY for changes in technology, in advance, is also more expensive to clients.

Here's the deal - not only did M-G take value off of owner's balance sheets, they made it cheaper for a competitor to use the same gear that current owners paid more to buy.  This is a classic issue in services businesses that depend on technology - make a profit with your current equipment for as long as your market will let you, all the while saving back cash for the next big purchase.  It's a competitive thing.

Say you have a Turbo Flash/Flood rig that's in good shape and has been making your money.  You purchased new, but for the last 10 years you've been taking a smaller fee for it as technology advanced.  I come along with a brand new rig and by matching your price, take your clients because I have "shiny, new".  If you have US$350k invested in capital equipment, starting out I can spend the same amount of money on new gear have have a state of the art system with the same cost basis as your 20 year old rig.  Customers like new stuff, it's a powerful marketing tool.

You're quite right, though, things do change.  That's what makes being in business challenging.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Chris Hindle on April 01, 2014, 12:38:36 pm
Does anyone really expect a company to keep prices artificially higher(and less competitive) than they need to be in order to keep old customers happy with their investments?  That's not going to happen, and as technology increases businesses need to plan for it!
Is it possible that now the prices are "artifically low" too:
a) Swamp the market
b) Clear unsold stock
in order to prepare for........ ?
And yes, if I bought one a couple weeks/months before a (major) price drop, I'd be pissed, and likely black-list that supplier.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Chuck Simon on April 01, 2014, 12:42:47 pm
You can't expect a manufacturer to be more concerned about your profits than their own.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 01, 2014, 12:56:12 pm
You can't expect a manufacturer to be more concerned about your profits than theirs own.

I knew we'd get to this point, in fact I almost went there in my previous post.

The question then, is how does M-G benefit from cutting prices at Midas?  More unit sales?  Maybe, but they pissed on a big chunk of their existing professional user base, those folks who've paid a premium price over the last 30 years to support the brand.  To me that's a bad strategy, but perhaps they'll compensate by offering a trade-up/trade-in to existing customers.  I know that if we'd purchased a Pro6 and found ourselves "under water" on the note because the manufacturer slashed 30% of value, I'd be inclined to dis-consider that brand for further purchases.

YMMV, etc.

But this is probably a moot issue here in the Lounge.  My employer expects me to make him a profit and keep his balance sheet happy.  Those are considerations that many participants in this forum don't have, or that those considerations can be sublimated as desired.  I manage a business with multiple employees, trucking, company owned physical plant, and a lot of high tech gear.  And the boss's wife (controller/treasurer) holds my feet to the fire on business performance; in some ways she's much tougher than her husband.

So maybe this doesn't belong here in the land of unicorns and cheap gear that allows the marginally competent to ankle-bite our gigs and never make a profit, because for so many their 'business' is actually a hobby.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Ray Aberle on April 01, 2014, 12:58:22 pm
You can't expect a manufacturer to be more concerned about your profits than theirs own.

No, but at the same time, your choice(s) of what manufacturer(s) to support will affect their profit. If people stop purchasing M-G owned brands, you can be damn certain they will do whatever it took to change that!

Is it possible that now the prices are "artifically low" too:
a) Swamp the market
b) Clear unsold stock
in order to prepare for........ ?
And yes, if I bought one a couple weeks/months before a (major) price drop, I'd be pissed, and likely black-list that supplier.

Clearing unsold stock, cute. But to swamp the market? It's almost like the situation Tim mentioned, about coming in with shiny new toys and getting clients because you have something new. We get upset when "ankle biters" come in and underbid a show at a price that is just not sustainable-- and rightfully so-- and that's almost what they're doing there. Undercutting the market to get more marketshare. The problem with lowering prices is that is's hard to then raise them again without a clear defined benefit to the price increase. So, they'll need to launch new consoles that are f'ingly amazingly better then anything they have now in order to justify a retail that's closer to what they were at before these drops. When a manufacturer launches a new product, there's a certain amount of R&D investment they need to recoup-- and so they either need to sell a few consoles that are REALLY EXPENSIVE, or a bunch that might not be making them quite as much each, but they'll make it up in quantity sold.

So, M-G may just have reached the point where their investment has paid for itself, they don't need as much per console, and want to get ready for the "Next Big Thing."

-Ray

[Haha. Tim said pretty much the same thing, as I was typing my post.]
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Rick Alan on April 01, 2014, 01:04:32 pm
Little bird told me Music Group has taken all of Turbosound's blue prints and cad designs to the Behringer China plant for manufacturing.   
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Ray Aberle on April 01, 2014, 01:16:18 pm
Little bird told me Music Group has taken all of Turbosound's blue prints and cad designs to the Behringer China plant for manufacturing.
All I can think of now when people say "a little bird told me" is... "you heard it on Twitter?"

-Ray
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Chuck Simon on April 01, 2014, 02:41:06 pm
I would bet there are more pro sound companies that will benefit from the new lower prices than will suffer because of it.

I know if I had just bought a Soundcraft Compact weeks before the introduction of the Expression I would probably feel the same as Tim does. Those are the breaks and part of the risk of doing any business that depends on technology.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 01, 2014, 02:43:55 pm
You are not the only professional here and there are probably more pro sound companies that will benefit from the new lower prices than will suffer because of it.

Some will, yes, but others who've helps "make" the brand get a backhanded slap from a business perspective, particularly if there was any debt financing.

"I've got bad news and good news.  The bad news is we just fucked you by devaluing the assets we sold you by 30%; the good news is you can buy cheaper new."

Somehow that doesn't have a cachet of friendliness when the accountants view it.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Chuck Simon on April 01, 2014, 02:48:27 pm
Sorry, Tim, I edited my post and eliminated my quote of your statement while you must have been posting.  I was afraid it would unintentionally demonstrate a lack of respect.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 01, 2014, 03:17:28 pm
Sorry, Tim, I edited my post and eliminated my quote of your statement while you must have been posting.  I was afraid it would unintentionally demonstrate a lack of respect.

Not a problem, Chuck.  What we've done is display how there is always more than one consideration of any event.  In certain positions, the price cut is a financial problem but for others, an opportunity.  I get it, you get it, and we're putting up both sides for the enjoyment of our audience. ;)

There are bigger implications about what this does in our minuscule little industry.  As JR (IIRC) put it, we're a flea on the butt of a very small dog.  Moves by big players have consequences, unintended or not.  While I'm still trying to guess how many more Pro6 or Pro2 they might sell because of the price drop, I'm also trying to figure out why they'd leave money on the table.  It takes a lot of additional unit sales to make up for this kind of reduction.  My guess is that the <Pro X models are about to become Midas' M7, still in the catalog but on their way out as new control surfaces and i/o package wait in the wings.
Title: Re: turbosound
Post by: Peter Morris on April 01, 2014, 09:47:45 pm
Not a problem, Chuck.  What we've done is display how there is always more than one consideration of any event.  In certain positions, the price cut is a financial problem but for others, an opportunity.  I get it, you get it, and we're putting up both sides for the enjoyment of our audience. ;)

There are bigger implications about what this does in our minuscule little industry.  As JR (IIRC) put it, we're a flea on the butt of a very small dog.  Moves by big players have consequences, unintended or not.  While I'm still trying to guess how many more Pro6 or Pro2 they might sell because of the price drop, I'm also trying to figure out why they'd leave money on the table.  It takes a lot of additional unit sales to make up for this kind of reduction.  My guess is that the <Pro X models are about to become Midas' M7, still in the catalog but on their way out as new control surfaces and i/o package wait in the wings.

Tim,

When Music Group bought Midas and Turbo, Uli was clearly going to streamline the production process and reduce costs.

I own both Turbosound and Midas, the price drop devalues my gear, but I didnít buy my equipment to resell it, I bought it to hire. When I do eventually sell it, it will have been depreciated for taxation purposes to zero.  Any profit on the sale will then give me a tax bill (I assume your taxation system is similar).
 
My biggest, and really my only concern is that Uli ensures the continued acceptance of Turbosound (and Midas) in the pro community.
 
Iím worried he will change models very five minutes, and not provide continued product support - nothing devalues equipment faster than being made obsolete.
 
I have a Flex array TFA600 rig which has already been deleted from the product range.  There is now a ďnew modelĒ the TFA104 to replace it. I suspect Turbosound lied and itís not a new model, just a new name; but from my perspective, itís not a good start.
 
Iím also concerned that he will use Turboís name to promote his rebadged Behringer products and in doing so, taint the respect the pro world has for Turbosound professional range of speakers.
   
I think itís a difficult task to own and promote successfully both MI and Pro speaker systems, but I do sincerely hope that will be the case.

Peter