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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: Travis Dean on January 13, 2014, 10:32:41 pm

Title: Smaller Subs
Post by: Travis Dean on January 13, 2014, 10:32:41 pm
I am looking to purchase some subs mainly used for small bands inside.  i currently use 8 lab subs for larger venues and outdoors.  I want something smaller that's more portable but can be used with my Labsubs when I do larger events.  Maybe as secondary subs or higher frequency subs for DJ music. 
I want a versatile subs but don't have an unlimited budget.
I've looked into JBL STX828S, Yorkville LS1208 & PV SP218BX just to name a few but not limited to.  I love the Yorkville but seems like it would be simialr to the Labsubs just a bit smaller.  Any help in this would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 14, 2014, 07:40:20 am
I am looking to purchase some subs mainly used for small bands inside.  i currently use 8 lab subs for larger venues and outdoors.  I want something smaller that's more portable but can be used with my Labsubs when I do larger events.  Maybe as secondary subs or higher frequency subs for DJ music. 
I want a versatile subs but don't have an unlimited budget.
I've looked into JBL STX828S, Yorkville LS1208 & PV SP218BX just to name a few but not limited to.  I love the Yorkville but seems like it would be simialr to the Labsubs just a bit smaller.  Any help in this would be greatly appreciated.
As with most things you have to define the goal a bit.

Ask yourself these questions:

1: Will I have to carry them up stairs to gigs?  WIll it by by myself or with help?

2: Does the height matter?  Do I need to stack cabinets on top of them and get them high enough?

3: How much SPL do I need and what is my budget?  Do I need more cheap subs to split up for different gigs or a few better subs

4: How low do I really need to go?

Things like that are a good start.  If you want to "shoot the target" FIRST you have know exactly what the target is. THEN you choose the proper tool for the job.  Without knowing the job-then how do you know what tool to use.

The wrong tool at a good price is still the wrong tool.
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Travis Dean on January 14, 2014, 01:45:15 pm
As with most things you have to define the goal a bit.

Ask yourself these questions:

1: Will I have to carry them up stairs to gigs?  WIll it by by myself or with help?

2: Does the height matter?  Do I need to stack cabinets on top of them and get them high enough?

3: How much SPL do I need and what is my budget?  Do I need more cheap subs to split up for different gigs or a few better subs

4: How low do I really need to go?

Things like that are a good start.  If you want to "shoot the target" FIRST you have know exactly what the target is. THEN you choose the proper tool for the job.  Without knowing the job-then how do you know what tool to use.

The wrong tool at a good price is still the wrong tool.

None of these apply.  Just need something for small bar gigs and weddings that will blend well with my LabSubs if need be for larger gigs.  Something is better than nothing right now but I don't want to waste my money on subs if they won't be able to work for me other than doing bar gigs.  Hope this makes sense.
I could afford one expensive sub right now or two of the least expensive.  More to be added in the future of course. 
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 14, 2014, 07:21:51 pm
None of these apply.  Just need something for small bar gigs and weddings that will blend well with my LabSubs if need be for larger gigs.  Something is better than nothing right now but I don't want to waste my money on subs if they won't be able to work for me other than doing bar gigs.  Hope this makes sense.
I could afford one expensive sub right now or two of the least expensive.  More to be added in the future of course.
Generally a "smaller sub" means either less output and/or less low freq extension.

If less output-then you will need a bunch of them to keep up with the Lab Subs.

If the low freq extension is not as deep-then the phase response will be different (and of course it will be different simply due to the use of a horn in the lab sub), so when you combine them-at some freq they will add and at other freq they will partially cancel.

Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Travis Dean on January 14, 2014, 08:45:52 pm
Generally a "smaller sub" means either less output and/or less low freq extension.

If less output-then you will need a bunch of them to keep up with the Lab Subs.

If the low freq extension is not as deep-then the phase response will be different (and of course it will be different simply due to the use of a horn in the lab sub), so when you combine them-at some freq they will add and at other freq they will partially cancel.

Understandable.  Couldn't the smaller subs be used for a higher frequency, say Labsubs 30hz-60hz and smaller ones for 65hz-120hz, something like that?  That's what I had in mind initially.  I know that I would need a lot of whatever I get to keep up with the Labs but Was wondering your opinion on the 3 i mentioned since I haven't heard any of them.  Only subs around here are cheap jbl's, PV's  and yamaha's.  Neither very impressive of course in any application.
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Rick Powell on January 14, 2014, 09:55:41 pm
Understandable.  Couldn't the smaller subs be used for a higher frequency, say Labsubs 30hz-60hz and smaller ones for 65hz-120hz, something like that?  That's what I had in mind initially.  I know that I would need a lot of whatever I get to keep up with the Labs but Was wondering your opinion on the 3 i mentioned since I haven't heard any of them.  Only subs around here are cheap jbl's, PV's  and yamaha's.  Neither very impressive of course in any application.

It seems you are looking for a Swiss Army Knife, not another group of subs.  Something that works well as a mid-sub (also known as a "kick bin") coupled with LabSubs is not likely to work as well as the primary low end of a small system.  If I was designing the optimum low mid cabinet to pair with a LabSub, it would likely be a front horn loaded cabinet with a speaker that accentuated the 80-200 Hz range and did not sound squirrely at the top of its range.  That is usually the problem when you are trying to make a sub suited for low end try to play too high, or vice versa.    Maybe someone else has experience with a speaker that plays well as a mid with LabSubs and does a great job as a small system low sub; I just can't think of one.
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 15, 2014, 02:26:43 pm
If you are not opposed to building your own, then the HD15 was built to go between big horns like Labsubs and Horn tops that won't reach down to mate well with Labs.

It does 60-200 Hz. You would need about 4 per side to keep up with the labs. On an indoor show with some equalization and good limiting you would have a good sub that will reach down to 45-50 hz using 2 per side. That would do just fine for a band in a bar with a couple hundred people.


http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=hd15horn
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 15, 2014, 05:59:00 pm
Understandable.  Couldn't the smaller subs be used for a higher frequency, say Labsubs 30hz-60hz and smaller ones for 65hz-120hz, something like that?  That's what I had in mind initially.  I know that I would need a lot of whatever I get to keep up with the Labs but Was wondering your opinion on the 3 i mentioned since I haven't heard any of them.  Only subs around here are cheap jbl's, PV's  and yamaha's.  Neither very impressive of course in any application.
So if the small subs are intended for higher bass freq-then they will not work as stand alone subs on smaller gigs.

But it all depends on what the overall goal is.  It is all a matter of tradeoffs.
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Travis Dean on January 16, 2014, 07:16:51 pm
If you are not opposed to building your own, then the HD15 was built to go between big horns like Labsubs and Horn tops that won't reach down to mate well with Labs.

It does 60-200 Hz. You would need about 4 per side to keep up with the labs. On an indoor show with some equalization and good limiting you would have a good sub that will reach down to 45-50 hz using 2 per side. That would do just fine for a band in a bar with a couple hundred people.


http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=hd15horn
Not opposed just didn't want to.  But if it's my only option which it is starting to sound like, then I can build.  What is the best driver to use, looks like there's a few options?  Also I couldn't find any processor settings or detailed specs on the completed sub?  ie. wattage ohms sensitivity
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 19, 2014, 02:46:51 pm
Not opposed just didn't want to.  But if it's my only option which it is starting to sound like, then I can build.  What is the best driver to use, looks like there's a few options?  Also I couldn't find any processor settings or detailed specs on the completed sub?  ie. wattage ohms sensitivity

The suitable drivers are listed. I think most people are using the Eminence though, just because it is readily available and cheap.

You are not likely to find any measurements or processor settings for a DIY design. That's one of the things that separates us from the big boys....
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: drew gandy on February 21, 2014, 02:25:19 pm
Not opposed just didn't want to. 

You could buy TH-Mini's.  Sensitivity is close to the Labsubs (1 to 1 ratio might work) and they will do 65-120 while also working as a "sub" for the bar gigs.  Again, they won't do "low" bass but should do a solid band type of sound.  I suspect you would do better to crossover to the labs closer to 75 but the "numbers" will work themselves out after some use.  But it seems these would be out of your budget...

ps: the crossover between any sub and the labs is going to require some careful work with some measurement gear in order to work out the phase overlap.  A lot of times a crossover around 90-100 can be messed up but still listenable.  A cross around 60-70 that is screwed up can really kill your bottom end "bump" and likely won't be forgiven. ;-) 
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Travis Dean on February 21, 2014, 03:28:48 pm
You could buy TH-Mini's.  Sensitivity is close to the Labsubs (1 to 1 ratio might work) and they will do 65-120 while also working as a "sub" for the bar gigs.  Again, they won't do "low" bass but should do a solid band type of sound.  I suspect you would do better to crossover to the labs closer to 75 but the "numbers" will work themselves out after some use.  But it seems these would be out of your budget...

ps: the crossover between any sub and the labs is going to require some careful work with some measurement gear in order to work out the phase overlap.  A lot of times a crossover around 90-100 can be messed up but still listenable.  A cross around 60-70 that is screwed up can really kill your bottom end "bump" and likely won't be forgiven. ;-)
Very helpful info thanks.  I think i'll just have to rethink the whole combining subs issue.  Might just use the labs for bigger events and buy some smaller subs just for the smaller gigs and not mix them.
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Art Welter on March 01, 2014, 03:44:16 pm
Very helpful info thanks.  I think i'll just have to rethink the whole combining subs issue.  Might just use the labs for bigger events and buy some smaller subs just for the smaller gigs and not mix them.
Travis,

You might be interested in these subs which use Lab 12", go about as low as the LabHorn, but are only 1/4 the size, and far easier to build:

http://soundforums.net/diy-audio/134-free-sub-plan-dual-lab12-front-loaded-welter-systems.html

I have two for sale.

Art
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Travis Dean on March 02, 2014, 09:10:30 pm
Travis,

You might be interested in these subs which use Lab 12", go about as low as the LabHorn, but are only 1/4 the size, and far easier to build:

http://soundforums.net/diy-audio/134-free-sub-plan-dual-lab12-front-loaded-welter-systems.html

I have two for sale.

Art

Could you send me a picture of the ones you have for sale?  Also, maybe a side-by-side comparison picture with another sub next to it just so I can actually see it?
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Art Welter on March 03, 2014, 12:07:21 pm
Could you send me a picture of the ones you have for sale? 
The 22.5" tall WS 2x12" are on the left, Paraline Mid/High in the center, and a Keystone sub on the right. The Keystone is 45" tall, same as a Labhorn.
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Taylor Hall on March 03, 2014, 03:58:24 pm
Those look like a fun little design to undertake that would add a fair bit of oomph for a small footprint. If I happen onto some spare cash or LAB12s I know what the 7 sheets of ply sitting in my garage are going towards!
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Travis Dean on March 03, 2014, 06:22:52 pm
The 22.5" tall WS 2x12" are on the left, Paraline Mid/High in the center, and a Keystone sub on the right. The Keystone is 45" tall, same as a Labhorn.
VERY COOL!  How old are they and what do you want for them?  Where ru located?
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Art Welter on March 04, 2014, 06:41:56 pm
VERY COOL!  How old are they and what do you want for them?  Where ru located?

The pair of cabinets were built using Baltic Birch around 2008, each is presently loaded with only one Lab 12, the empty hole has a cover plate.
$600 per pair plus shipping, unloaded for $400. Shipping weight is around 80 lb with one driver, about 55 without, usually have used FedEx for shipping from Santa Fe (87505).

I could sell them "as is" with or without the Lab 12 cones. "As is" would not have input jacks, as they presently have EP-6 and you probably use Speakon, about a $3 inlet IIRC. The EP-6 connectors I use are getting hard to get and are like $25 each...

The speaker cover plate works OK, you could start with a pair of cones, and later add another pair if you wanted more upper output. The response below shows the single 12" compared to the dual 12", both with the same BW25 125 Hz filters.

Art
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Jean Garcia on March 05, 2014, 01:15:38 am
I have just come into 4 EAW La118z's.... I have 2 xti4000, and a drive rack does anybody have any input on the best set up/ frequency choice for these subs.... I want them to hit hard....
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Taylor Hall on March 05, 2014, 10:57:56 am
I have just come into 4 EAW La118z's.... I have 2 xti4000, and a drive rack does anybody have any input on the best set up/ frequency choice for these subs.... I want them to hit hard....
That's probably a question best left for a separate thread as it's a complex answer that can not be made without knowing a host of other variables first. Venue size/attendance, other equipment used, spl targets, etc...
Title: Re: Smaller Subs
Post by: Chris Jensen on March 05, 2014, 09:24:20 pm
I have just come into 4 EAW La118z's.... I have 2 xti4000, and a drive rack does anybody have any input on the best set up/ frequency choice for these subs.... I want them to hit hard....

Very easy to find on EAW's site.

http://eaw.com/docs/2_Legacy_Products/Processor%20Settings/Sub_Settings.pdf

I don't know if you would do any better than this, I think EAW has the most to lose over bad suggestions.

Chris