ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => AC Power and Grounding => Topic started by: Mike Sokol on January 09, 2014, 11:16:23 am

Title: Code Clusters
Post by: Mike Sokol on January 09, 2014, 11:16:23 am
Just when you think you've seen it all, a bunch of new electrical code violations are discovered. This is  a list of favorite code fails in EC&M Magazine. At the bottom of each text keep clicking on the "See the Next Violation" link for continued fun. And please reference any of these fails here for a thread discussion.

http://ecmweb.com/nec/return-code-clusters-more-worst-worst#node-39761?NL=ECM-01&Issue=ECM-01_20140109_ECM-01_50&YM_RID=mike@noshockzone.org&YM_MID=1442034&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_2

 
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Steve M Smith on January 09, 2014, 01:27:39 pm
I like the splice in a bottle.  Reminded me of the power supply to the shed in my last house.

A few months after moving in, I noticed the lights flickering then after a while the trip would cut out.

Eventually I dug up the cable.  It was ordinary three core cable with solid copper conductors as used internally.  About ten feet away from the shed, there was a join.  The wires were just twisted together, wrapped up in insulating tape and buried in the ground!


Steve.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Mike Sokol on January 09, 2014, 08:03:39 pm
I like the splice in a bottle.  Reminded me of the power supply to the shed in my last house.

Yes, I liked the splice in the bottle a lot. Fits right in with the timer in the deli meat container. Yummy...

http://ecmweb.com/violations/return-code-clusters-not-just-food-anymore

Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on January 09, 2014, 08:45:26 pm
Ziploc containers aren't UL Listed-tell me it ain't so!

Not sure I agree with the duct taped meter base though-depending on how recent the drive by was.  I am still waiting for a special order on a meter base assembly-60 days later.  Yes, you could do the whole assembly-if you can find one quick-but I'm not gonna throw one in and try to squeeze that kind of money out of a customer for an unplanned repair.  I suppose you could disconnect until parts arrive-but the duct tape might be the least evil option-unless someone has a better temp fix?   

Besides the code violations, the boxes zip tied to the trees just looks tacky-especially given the surrounding landscaping!  Wouldn't want my name on that job-or even want to park my company vehicle close by for that matter.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Chris Hindle on January 10, 2014, 08:39:38 am

Besides the code violations, the boxes zip tied to the trees just looks tacky-especially given the surrounding landscaping!  Wouldn't want my name on that job-or even want to park my company vehicle close by for that matter.
I think the caption said Boston Mass. If that's the case, I can guarantee it was city electricians that did that one.
And agreed - it looks like turd.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 10, 2014, 09:19:30 am
I am always impressed with how clever idiots are.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Mike Sokol on January 10, 2014, 09:51:31 pm
I am always impressed with how clever idiots are.

+1
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Mike Sokol on February 06, 2014, 06:34:48 pm
More Code Clusters Part 3 from EC&M Magazine:

http://ecmweb.com/violations/code-clusters-3-we-dont-need-any-stinking-boxes (http://ecmweb.com/violations/code-clusters-3-we-dont-need-any-stinking-boxes)

Enjoy... ;D
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on February 06, 2014, 10:15:21 pm
The ampacity rating on the "thinwall" fuses is a really nice touch.

I have seen more than one overload relay installed where the NC contacts that open on an overload are not wired in series with the coil of the magnetic contactor-in some cases where I knew a licensed electrician had installed it.  They simply hd no clue how to hook them up.  Incorrectly wired they are as useful as a contactor with bypassed thermal units!

If only I had to log on to ecmweb to come across this kind of stuff!
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Chris Clark on February 06, 2014, 11:30:55 pm
Regarding No Room for Growth (http://ecmweb.com/violations/return-code-clusters-no-room-growth) the only concern would be when the zip ties break, though likely the tree will grow around them. Trees don't grow "upwards" like most people think - essentially branches at the top grow together, but if you put a mark in the tree at 4 feet up (or it grows around a fence board, or whatnot), that will still be 4 feet off the ground 20 years from now.

I'm not saying what they did there was right, but EC&M's concern for the tree growing up and taking the box with it are unfounded.

(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab48/WisemanHype/the_more_you_know2.jpg)
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: frank kayser on February 07, 2014, 12:06:57 pm
... the only concern would be when the zip ties break, though likely the tree will grow around them. Trees don't grow "upwards" like most people think - essentially branches at the top grow together, but if you put a mark in the tree at 4 feet up (or it grows around a fence board, or whatnot), that will still be 4 feet off the ground 20 years from now.

I'm not saying what they did there was right, but EC&M's concern for the tree growing up and taking the box with it are unfounded.

(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab48/WisemanHype/the_more_you_know2.jpg)

True that.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on February 12, 2014, 02:53:00 pm
The picture below came from the State of Washington Labor & Industries (the department responsible for both workplace safety and electrical inspections in the State of Washington).

The company that posted the picture on Facebook said "this was used to energize an isolated circuit. A toddler pulled the energized male end out of the receptacle and stuck it in his mouth. Fortunately, the toddler survived a very dangerous electrical shock with minor burn."
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Mike Sokol on February 12, 2014, 03:17:04 pm
The picture below came from the State of Washington Labor & Industries (the department responsible for both workplace safety and electrical inspections in the State of Washington).

The company that posted the picture on Facebook said "this was used to energize an isolated circuit. A toddler pulled the energized male end out of the receptacle and stuck it in his mouth. Fortunately, the toddler survived a very dangerous electrical shock with minor burn."

This makes me feel a little sick... :-[
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 12, 2014, 04:25:23 pm
This makes me feel a little sick... :-[

I just don't get why someone would ever think that is OK.....

-Ray
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Doug Hammel on February 12, 2014, 04:28:09 pm
The picture below came from the State of Washington Labor & Industries (the department responsible for both workplace safety and electrical inspections in the State of Washington).

The company that posted the picture on Facebook said "this was used to energize an isolated circuit. A toddler pulled the energized male end out of the receptacle and stuck it in his mouth. Fortunately, the toddler survived a very dangerous electrical shock with minor burn."

Good luck filing an insurance claim on that one. Never underestimate the stupidity of people!
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on February 12, 2014, 04:32:13 pm
I just don't get why someone would ever think that is OK.....

-Ray

Hey, there is a 50/50 chance that nobody will get hurt under the circumstances.  ::)!  Mark C.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 12, 2014, 04:39:44 pm
Good luck filing an insurance claim on that one. Never underestimate the stupidity of people!
Well, that would depend on who did it. If it was the owner/facility/whatever, then yeah, probably not going to fly with insurance. But if an electrical contractor did so (and presuming that they are properly licensed, etc) then you could certainly go after them.

None of this would, of course, preclude a lawsuit being filed by the parents of the toddler against everyone involved regardless of who is to blame!

-Ray
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on February 12, 2014, 05:26:05 pm
Good luck filing an insurance claim on that one. Never underestimate the stupidity of people!

The answer to that question is a big, fat, "it depends."

First of all, there is the matter of the injury. If the toddler is covered under health insurance, that insurance will likely cover the cost of treatment. HOWEVER, the health insurance company is likely to seek recompensation from the responsible party or their insurance company. The responsible party's insurance may very well deny the claim, at which point the health insurance company will likely go after the responsible party themselves.

But that's just for direct compensation of the health insurance company's costs incurred in treatment of the injury. The parents of the toddler also will likely have a claim against the responsible party in the form of a lawsuit seeking remedial damages; the cost of those damages will be borne against the responsible party's liability insurance. Unless they have no insurance, in which case other assets may be up for grabs.

On the other hand, if a parent of the toddler is the responsible party, all bets are off. Their own insurance may still pay for the immediate medical care, but probably will deny any additional coverage and cancel the policy.

I am not a lawyer, but any time you have a liability involved, insurance is a very, very messy business that only lawyers seem to be able to untangle.

Bottom line: do it right the first time.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Lyle Williams on February 13, 2014, 03:33:40 am
I see that after the accident someone was smart enough to plug it back in.  :-(
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Mike Sokol on February 13, 2014, 06:38:48 am
I see that after the accident someone was smart enough to plug it back in.  :-(

The sad thing is there must be many more thousands of dangerous wiring situations that have existed for years or even decades. While they seem to work, it only takes the right set of circumstances to set disaster in motion. I noticed something I'm sure is an electrical code violation at my local post office yesterday, but didn't say anything at the time. Think I'm going to take a picture of it next week and send it to our county inspectors. I'm sure it's been like that for decades, but it's not only potentially dangerous, it's also a bad example to the public since this is in plain view of customers at the main counter. 
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 13, 2014, 11:01:25 am
I see that after the accident someone was smart enough to plug it back in.  :-(
And it would be simple to get a flush mount male outlet to install in the space. Even better, an L5-20 twist lock male, so that it is difficult to remove and still presenting a female cable end when you do remove it.



... Not to justify their method of energizing the circuit, but even a regular twist-lock L5-20 there would have made it much more difficult for the toddler to remove it...

I noticed something I'm sure is an electrical code violation at my local post office yesterday, but didn't say anything at the time. Think I'm going to take a picture of it next week and send it to our county inspectors. I'm sure it's been like that for decades, but it's not only potentially dangerous, it's also a bad example to the public since this is in plain view of customers at the main counter. 
I'd bring it to the attention of the postal station master first, let him know there's a problem. If he brushes you off, then go to the county. Give him (her) a chance to do the right thing first. :)

-Ray
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Mike Sokol on February 13, 2014, 01:00:18 pm
More Code Clusters from EC&M. I LOVE these things...

http://ecmweb.com/violations/code-clusters-fork-it-over-dude (http://ecmweb.com/violations/code-clusters-fork-it-over-dude)

BTW: I'm getting hungry for a hot dog with some Whirlwind Salsa. Wonder why???  :o

EDIT ADDED: I just noticed the handles of the forks are insulated with e-tape. Yeah, THAT'S safe!!!  >:(
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Doug Hammel on February 13, 2014, 01:15:08 pm
Well, that would depend on who did it. If it was the owner/facility/whatever, then yeah, probably not going to fly with insurance. But if an electrical contractor did so (and presuming that they are properly licensed, etc) then you could certainly go after them.

None of this would, of course, preclude a lawsuit being filed by the parents of the toddler against everyone involved regardless of who is to blame!

-Ray

I should have added on the part of the owner of that "setup". The parents of that toddler definitely have a claim/lawsuit. It is not only illegal, but just plain stupid to wire something that way. What a world we live in. Mike is right, how many more violations are out there nationwide.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Frank Koenig on February 13, 2014, 06:11:56 pm
I see the problem! They didn't use a proper enclosure for the switch and pilot light. Those knockouts could get pushed in and contact a live part. -F
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Mike Sokol on February 13, 2014, 06:44:52 pm
I see the problem! They didn't use a proper enclosure for the switch and pilot light. Those knockouts could get pushed in and contact a live part. -F

Besides the hot-dog cooker, I really like the No Cover Charge Cluster a lot.

http://ecmweb.com/violations/code-clusters-no-cover-charge (http://ecmweb.com/violations/code-clusters-no-cover-charge)

Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on February 13, 2014, 10:37:32 pm
The sad thing is, if this is a typical commercial setup with drop ceiling, a few feet of metal clad would have made a relatively easy compliant fix at roughly the same material cost.  Or, a couple wiremold boxes-no less unsightly than the "fix" and safe!   Around here a problem like this would be caught during final inspection, and it would have to remedied before passed-but I guess if you are the one doing the inspections you can do as you see fit.

The liability thing costs everyone though.  Had a couple young boys die at a pool during a night youth activity a few years ago near here.  During construction the electrician had messed up the underwater lights, so the municipality that owned it sued him and got a breach of contract settlement.  A couple years later, without doing repairs they were still doing night swims and the boys drowned.  Since in Iowa muni are immune from wrongful injury lawsuits, the only entities they could find to sue were the organization that held the activity and the electrician.  But after paying the breach of contract, what other action could the electrician take to prevent problems?  Don't know if he had to pay-but I am sure he had to spend time and money on a lawyer! 
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Mike Sokol on March 20, 2014, 01:24:03 pm
EC&M's Code Clusters Bracket Challenge. A real contest with prizes.  ;D

http://ecmweb.upickem.net/upickem/registration/login.asp?contestid=122904#&NL=ECM-01&Issue=ECM-01_20140320_ECM-01_449&YM_RID=mike@noshockzone.org&YM_MID=1454883&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1_2 (http://ecmweb.upickem.net/upickem/registration/login.asp?contestid=122904#&NL=ECM-01&Issue=ECM-01_20140320_ECM-01_449&YM_RID=mike@noshockzone.org&YM_MID=1454883&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1_2)
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Jeff Bankston on March 21, 2014, 04:07:02 am
I like the splice in a bottle.  Reminded me of the power supply to the shed in my last house.

A few months after moving in, I noticed the lights flickering then after a while the trip would cut out.

Eventually I dug up the cable.  It was ordinary three core cable with solid copper conductors as used internally.  About ten feet away from the shed, there was a join.  The wires were just twisted together, wrapped up in insulating tape and buried in the ground!


Steve.
they shood a ben rapped in duck tape
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Jeff Bankston on March 21, 2014, 04:10:09 am
The picture below came from the State of Washington Labor & Industries (the department responsible for both workplace safety and electrical inspections in the State of Washington).

The company that posted the picture on Facebook said "this was used to energize an isolated circuit. A toddler pulled the energized male end out of the receptacle and stuck it in his mouth. Fortunately, the toddler survived a very dangerous electrical shock with minor burn."
thats F 'd up beyond belief !
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 25, 2014, 02:05:54 pm
(http://lbpinc.com/Gulp.jpg)

He is about to plug it in.  In use, it flexes every couple of seconds.  From this video
https://www.youtube.com/v/_mKSKZau9qs  Starting at 7:50

Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Steve M Smith on March 25, 2014, 03:04:20 pm
Are you really allowed to use those twist on joint cover things on the US?


Steve.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 25, 2014, 03:18:58 pm
Are you really allowed to use those twist on joint cover things on the US?

Steve.

You mean the red things?  Yes, we call them wire nuts and they are allowed IN A BOX
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector
What is used in Europe?
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Taylor Hall on March 25, 2014, 03:24:50 pm
Most of what I saw in France were these:

(http://www.newmarevpower.com/Terminal_Strips_Bus_Bars/Conn_Strips_2.jpg)

With a good inch or so of bare wire sticking out either end. Shocked me good a couple times because I never saw one with some kind of cover/box on them. After grabbing one accidentally while doing a cable run in an adjacent cable tray I went and got a small mirror I could use to look around before rooting about in cramped ceiling spaces.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on March 25, 2014, 03:26:38 pm
From this video
https://www.youtube.com/v/_mKSKZau9qs

I'm afraid that entire mill is a violation of every safety code known to man.

They don't make 'em like the used to. Sometimes, that's a good thing.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Steve M Smith on March 25, 2014, 03:36:14 pm
What is used in Europe?

I can't speak for Europe, I'm in England!

We use junction boxes:

(http://www.sunstore.co.uk/images/P/12v%2010A%20Junction%20Box.jpg)


Steve.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on March 25, 2014, 03:43:10 pm
They don't make 'em like the used to. Sometimes, that's a good thing.

Very true, but in the factory, it seemed the more we we idiot proofed things, the better people became at being idiots!

Don't have the link but if you like that press check out the "Chinese manpower punch press" on Youtube-very impressive indeed!

Wire nuts work very well-when used properly.  Obviously there are too many violations in that pic to even know where to start though I suspect the wire nuts are used to allow quick repairs when the wire wears out!
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 25, 2014, 04:06:37 pm
I can't speak for Europe, I'm in England!

We use junction boxes:

Steve.

Sorry about that.  From over here it was hard to see where you were standing. (Grin)  I looked up the junction box and found this.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Necessities_Index/Junction_Boxes/index.html?source=adwords&kw=%2bjunction%20%2bbox&gclid=CLbT0667rr0CFYyhOgodwQYAiA

Seems like  a good way to do things.  In the US we use boxes made from either plastic or metal and the wires come in and are clamped.  Once inside it is OK to fasten them together with wire nuts.  The boxes must have a cover, or be closed with a device such as a switch and cover,or a light fixture.

Rules are similar but not the same for industry.  (The boxes have to be made from tougher stuff, but wire nuts are still used.  Many people chose not to use them inside machines that vibrate.

Frank
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Steve M Smith on March 25, 2014, 04:14:11 pm
The four way box I posted a picture of is a bit old fashioned now.  It allows the live, neutral and earth to pass through and provides connection for a switch and ceiling mounted light fitting:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/i20yl3.jpg)

Now it is done with the terminals in the ceiling fitting itself:

(http://uk.farnell.com/productimages/farnell/standard/42267559.jpg)

Wired like this:

(http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/project_images/electrical_safety/ceiling_rose.jpg)

Sorry about that.  From over here it was hard to see where you were standing. (Grin)

Most people in England don't consider themselves part of Europe, even though we are... And here on the Isle of Wight, we don't consider ourselves to be part of England!


Steve.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 25, 2014, 04:54:41 pm
I like the terminal blocks, very logical and impossible to over-stuff when used correctly.
Title: Re: Code Clusters
Post by: Taylor Hall on March 26, 2014, 09:42:42 am
I like the terminal blocks, very logical and impossible to over-stuff when used correctly.
That sure is expecting a lot ;D