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Title: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: J. Taylor Webb on June 15, 2012, 07:47:56 pm
First I have to admit
A) None of these techniques are my own ideas
B) This current thought process is totally inspired by an article in May's LSI
about the unique and amazing systems at the Ultra Music Festival.

OK, the question -
Who out there that's reinforcing EDM for live events(or other?)is combining different
subs to cover various freq ranges ? Not just slight variations, but different formats
altogether? I keep hearing that shouldn't be done, even with separate signals/frequencies.

I have been doing this for years, with a much smaller scale mind you, and I feel some of the results have been quite good. SO, the concept on a larger scale really interests me.

A couple of things I'm most interested in
* Is a five(or even six) way system overkill, and just outdated with modern technology and driver/enclosures? Who has pushed the envelope on this?

* How really difficult is getting the crossover region(s) coherent with mixed horns and direct radiators on larger scales ? - and what kind of slopes and filter types do better for some of these ? Does combining modest underlapping with specific filters ever help?-  etc.

* Do horn loaded subs do better for the lowest octave; or ... are there specific advantages to using DR boxes for that ( as in the UM Festival example).
I use blocks of horns to get extension, and that has seemed to do OK on the smaller scales
events I've worked with, so curiosity has set in there.

A few other things ...
Any general rules of thumb for this type of thing?(other than don't do it) ;)   
On the lowest infra bass region, what are some more common freq. bandwidths?
How far up do some of you go with these additional boxes; i.e. - past the traditional 80-100hz
or so sub/full range xover point?(as in the UMF example)
I do realize that this is all really only good for the bass driven EDM stuff, and wouldn't see real advantage to most live music.

Last note - This isn't a question about horns vs. direct radiators, we've all been down that road(too many times?)

OK, I might be over-thinking this, and Iv'e probably stirred up the waters enough for one day.
Thanks in advance
Taylor




Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Matt Long on June 23, 2012, 10:34:15 pm
the Answer- I do.
Typically because in a given circumstance is not ideal. Usually because the equipment at hand is a hodgepodge of gear acquired over the years in various states of repair, mostly bad, and I come to try and save the day [shoot me now]. I specialize in Electronic dance music in the San Francisco Bay area and have mastered the art of the FRANKENSYSTEM! Basically taking parts from dead or bad systems and combining them to create monster sound. The challenge lies in delivering both punchy mid-bass and Deep bass lines that often have fundamentals well below 40hz while avoiding IM distortion in the woofers covering the range in to the 1k area.

And with some electronic music, like drum and bass and dubstep, the mid-bass contains long note sustains  that can really make the IM obvious to any listener, especially if vocals are also present. This is the case in a typical 3 way set-up (think JBL SRX) or even a not so great 4 way (think QSC KW series). What will happen is the highly compressed narrow dynamic range program material will be played as loud as the DJ is aloud to. Often times clipping the channel on the mixer, and or the master out, unless the tech turns it down themself and stands there looking pissed(especially if the dj is from the UK). So you get clipped over-compressed full spectrum signal and your job is to make it sound good, because if not, it's your fault...(right).

Even if the DJ behaves there is an inherent challenge that these music styles present. They will quickly expose any weak links in the signal chain, be it available power because the long sustaining bass drains amp capacitors quickly, or a lack of protective limiting (keep recone kits around don't wait for them to blow), or all to common and under addressed is Inter-Modulation Distortion caused by a group of drivers covering too wide of a band. The IM distortion of a system caused by electronic music tends to happen at the upper end of the bass spectrum from about 90-140(one might even say 180). This is exacerbated by the way DJs use the DJ mixer Eqs with the bass knob at 2-4 o'clock(unity being 12). If a woofer and amp that make up the band in question have to keep up with this midbass assault while handling transients >=3 octaves higher trouble often arises. So if a track is heavy at 100hz that band will have trouble with 800hz or greater.

So that is why I use different sets of subwoofers that cover 3 ranges: bass 40-80, mid-bass 80-150  and infra-bass 20-40. Note that each band is only one octave wide, this really helps. If I can't get Infra-bass due to limitations I use 2 bands 36-74 and 76-140ish. These are averages that I use and each different set of speakers will have different "alignments" lets say. Although time/phase aligning such systems that are not designed to play nice with each other can be a nightmare. Try getting turbosound flashlight single 21's to work with funktion one 218s in the same stack...time align based on length of horn and sweep down their freq range. BAZAAR! It kind of sounds like bad dubstep more than a sine sweep. then sweep back up and it's totally different. I think it's from an air pressure reactance type effect of the misaligned phase curves. But I digress.

Sorry about the rant. I've got some pent up angst from fighting dj's over their levels. But I hope I've been able to explain my experiences and resulting techniques clearly(ish).

I would like to note that a proper system with high quality gear is much more forgiving. SH-46's over TH-118s are all you really need...or DBH218-LCQPRS(or whatever its called).

Best of luck
/endrant
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Doug Fowler on June 27, 2012, 05:39:41 pm
First I have to admit
A) None of these techniques are my own ideas
B) This current thought process is totally inspired by an article in May's LSI
about the unique and amazing systems at the Ultra Music Festival.

OK, the question -
Who out there that's reinforcing EDM for live events(or other?)is combining different
subs to cover various freq ranges ? Not just slight variations, but different formats
altogether? I keep hearing that shouldn't be done, even with separate signals/frequencies.

I have been doing this for years, with a much smaller scale mind you, and I feel some of the results have been quite good. SO, the concept on a larger scale really interests me.

A couple of things I'm most interested in
* Is a five(or even six) way system overkill, and just outdated with modern technology and driver/enclosures? Who has pushed the envelope on this?

* How really difficult is getting the crossover region(s) coherent with mixed horns and direct radiators on larger scales ? - and what kind of slopes and filter types do better for some of these ? Does combining modest underlapping with specific filters ever help?-  etc.

* Do horn loaded subs do better for the lowest octave; or ... are there specific advantages to using DR boxes for that ( as in the UM Festival example).
I use blocks of horns to get extension, and that has seemed to do OK on the smaller scales
events I've worked with, so curiosity has set in there.

A few other things ...
Any general rules of thumb for this type of thing?(other than don't do it) ;)   
On the lowest infra bass region, what are some more common freq. bandwidths?
How far up do some of you go with these additional boxes; i.e. - past the traditional 80-100hz
or so sub/full range xover point?(as in the UMF example)
I do realize that this is all really only good for the bass driven EDM stuff, and wouldn't see real advantage to most live music.

Last note - This isn't a question about horns vs. direct radiators, we've all been down that road(too many times?)

OK, I might be over-thinking this, and Iv'e probably stirred up the waters enough for one day.
Thanks in advance
Taylor

In EDM, I have found there are three important areas, most of which was addressed in the LSI piece:

Smack - mid-bass, as Matt says.
Meat - where the majority of LF content lies, genre dependent
Drop - below 40 Hz.

For trance, house, and techno (mostly, not an iron-clad rule by any means), the meat normally lies between 50-60 Hz.  55 Hz is a good target frequency for optimization (and rear cancellation).

For dubstep, the meat lies lower, mid-40s normally in my experience.

Drop can happen any time, regardless of genre.

I believe horn-loaded systems offer the best 'smack'.  BASSMAXX (David Lee), as the article pointed out, has been optimizing his setup for a couple of years now using a direct radiator and a horn loaded box together.

At InfoComm, EAW introduced a new sub in the new Avalon series.  I don't recall the model, but it is a 21" direct radiator with a horn loaded component in one box.  I have not yet heard it.  EAW engineering did tell me they have spent quite a bit of time tweaking the interaction between the two components to get the desired result.  I think they are on the correct path.

Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Jon Geissinger on June 28, 2012, 06:36:26 pm
Unqualified response:
LabSubs on the bottom
Altec A7s for the rest
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Doug Fowler on June 28, 2012, 06:53:12 pm
Info on the new EAW EDM sub:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/eastern_acoustic_works_debuts_next-generation_sub.two_subwoofer_system/ (http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/eastern_acoustic_works_debuts_next-generation_sub.two_subwoofer_system/)
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Matt Long on June 29, 2012, 04:46:29 am
Info on the new EAW EDM sub:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/eastern_acoustic_works_debuts_next-generation_sub.two_subwoofer_system/ (http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/eastern_acoustic_works_debuts_next-generation_sub.two_subwoofer_system/)

Interesting,
Thanks for the info Doug. I'm not a big fan of the Avalon Series in general. I've spent a good amount of time fixing and/or "moding" these as well as the LA series(not a big fan of either). But it does sound like EAW is trying to step it up. Please note I'm not trying to bag on EAW, Their KF series rocks. I've used the bassmaxx Trips/Deuces often and can attest to the fact that direct radiator subs with these is challenging but also can be rewarding. I usually DR Subs for the mid-Smack. A good note on this point that Sealed subs work better in these array due to the lower group delay presented by a port, often times in the region I'm trying to cross over and the filter add more delay. Any consideration you can do prior to setting up a complex array concerning alignment issues will help out a lot when you go to set up and are setting the delays. I tried to use an all pass filter on the fly in sound web london to match a vented box with a horn(not tapped) on the fly and gave up eventually. Only with a good plot of the phase response of each cabinet have I ever had any success with that correction method.

At the end of the day I'd throw a bunch of easy to move and stack, TH-118's at it, done....Possibly with a center cluster of 4-8 DTS10s flat stacked in 2x2 - 2x4 mouths in the middle or some TH-221s for extension below 34. Just be sure your 3 way mains can keep up at the crossover point. Like SH46, Res4, or KF750.

-Matt
San Francisco, CA
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Doug Fowler on June 29, 2012, 12:33:25 pm
Interesting,
Thanks for the info Doug. I'm not a big fan of the Avalon Series in general. I've spent a good amount of time fixing and/or "moding" these as well as the LA series(not a big fan of either). But it does sound like EAW is trying to step it up. Please note I'm not trying to bag on EAW, Their KF series rocks. I've used the bassmaxx Trips/Deuces often and can attest to the fact that direct radiator subs with these is challenging but also can be rewarding. I usually DR Subs for the mid-Smack. A good note on this point that Sealed subs work better in these array due to the lower group delay presented by a port, often times in the region I'm trying to cross over and the filter add more delay. Any consideration you can do prior to setting up a complex array concerning alignment issues will help out a lot when you go to set up and are setting the delays. I tried to use an all pass filter on the fly in sound web london to match a vented box with a horn(not tapped) on the fly and gave up eventually. Only with a good plot of the phase response of each cabinet have I ever had any success with that correction method.

At the end of the day I'd throw a bunch of easy to move and stack, TH-118's at it, done....Possibly with a center cluster of 4-8 DTS10s flat stacked in 2x2 - 2x4 mouths in the middle or some TH-221s for extension below 34. Just be sure your 3 way mains can keep up at the crossover point. Like SH46, Res4, or KF750.

-Matt
San Francisco, CA

KF750 - I did a small ULTRA @ Central Park a few years back on the Summer stage.  The first thing I noticed is how punchy the LF was.   
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: J. Taylor Webb on July 04, 2012, 01:03:28 pm
In EDM, I have found there are three important areas, most of which was addressed in the LSI piece:

Smack - mid-bass, as Matt says.
Meat - where the majority of LF content lies, genre dependent
Drop - below 40 Hz.

For trance, house, and techno (mostly, not an iron-clad rule by any means), the meat normally lies between 50-60 Hz.  55 Hz is a good target frequency for optimization (and rear cancellation).

For dubstep, the meat lies lower, mid-40s normally in my experience.

Drop can happen any time, regardless of genre.

I believe horn-loaded systems offer the best 'smack'.  BASSMAXX (David Lee), as the article pointed out, has been optimizing his setup for a couple of years now using a direct radiator and a horn loaded box together.

At InfoComm, EAW introduced a new sub in the new Avalon series.  I don't recall the model, but it is a 21" direct radiator with a horn loaded component in one box.  I have not yet heard it.  EAW engineering did tell me they have spent quite a bit of time tweaking the interaction between the two components to get the desired result.  I think they are on the correct path.

Hi Doug
Thanks for the response and specific info
That's good to know about choices of drivers and
Boxes as well as the freq ranges.
It helps me with my insatiable curiosity
I guess it all depends on specific goals, and with EDM
that's a lot of clean high impact low end
Thanks again to all for info and input
Taylor
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney) on January 16, 2013, 09:27:22 pm
Hi Doug
Thanks for the response and specific info
That's good to know about choices of drivers and
Boxes as well as the freq ranges.
It helps me with my insatiable curiosity
I guess it all depends on specific goals, and with EDM
that's a lot of clean high impact low end
Thanks again to all for info and input
Taylor

I was very pleased this year at EDC MCO with the combination of the JSUB on top of an Infra. A very simple set up that provided all 3 types of EDM bass... In the past working with a big EDM artist that did a ton of shows we flew J subs and used b2's/infras on the ground.. but this new bass stack was simple awesome... and it worked in a much larger scale than I've ever seen before.

Doug you did our alignment and tune back in 2011 in Orlando didn't you?
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Andrew Brubaker on February 07, 2014, 12:38:07 am
To go off of the idea of this post, I have been wanting to know more about doing a multiple sub setup and have been looking into doing this for when I have EMD type gigs. I currently have 4 SRX728 and have been thinking about adding in some LA400 to be the midbass subs. What are peoples' thoughts? Other sub recommendations?
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Nick Enright on February 07, 2014, 06:23:01 pm
First I have to admit
A) None of these techniques are my own ideas
B) This current thought process is totally inspired by an article in May's LSI
about the unique and amazing systems at the Ultra Music Festival.

OK, the question -
Who out there that's reinforcing EDM for live events(or other?)is combining different
subs to cover various freq ranges ? Not just slight variations, but different formats
altogether? I keep hearing that shouldn't be done, even with separate signals/frequencies.

I have been doing this for years, with a much smaller scale mind you, and I feel some of the results have been quite good. SO, the concept on a larger scale really interests me.

A couple of things I'm most interested in
* Is a five(or even six) way system overkill, and just outdated with modern technology and driver/enclosures? Who has pushed the envelope on this?

* How really difficult is getting the crossover region(s) coherent with mixed horns and direct radiators on larger scales ? - and what kind of slopes and filter types do better for some of these ? Does combining modest underlapping with specific filters ever help?-  etc.

* Do horn loaded subs do better for the lowest octave; or ... are there specific advantages to using DR boxes for that ( as in the UM Festival example).
I use blocks of horns to get extension, and that has seemed to do OK on the smaller scales
events I've worked with, so curiosity has set in there.

A few other things ...
Any general rules of thumb for this type of thing?(other than don't do it) ;)   
On the lowest infra bass region, what are some more common freq. bandwidths?
How far up do some of you go with these additional boxes; i.e. - past the traditional 80-100hz
or so sub/full range xover point?(as in the UMF example)
I do realize that this is all really only good for the bass driven EDM stuff, and wouldn't see real advantage to most live music.

Last note - This isn't a question about horns vs. direct radiators, we've all been down that road(too many times?)

OK, I might be over-thinking this, and Iv'e probably stirred up the waters enough for one day.
Thanks in advance
Taylor

I do a small EDM room with all nexo.

FOH- 2x Alpha Ef + 4x Alpha B118 + 4x CD18

The Ef is a full range 3way box going from aroun 60-80 up, adding the pair of B118 per single Ef give me lots of meat, they go a bit lower than the Ef alone. The CD18's give me the support down into the last octaves, and in cardioid mode keep it off the decks.

This is one of my favorite rigs and it's very easy to scale up, using the same ratios.

here's the corresponding monitor rig:

Nexo again: 2xPS15 + 2xS2

I have teched on a medium electronic stage, all Meyer, w/ 4 Milo hangs 2@8 boxes, outfill at 6 boxes; for subbage there were 22x Meyer HP700...
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Chris Van Duker on February 09, 2014, 09:06:12 pm
At InfoComm, EAW introduced a new sub in the new Avalon series.  I don't recall the model, but it is a 21" direct radiator with a horn loaded component in one box.  I have not yet heard it.  EAW engineering did tell me they have spent quite a bit of time tweaking the interaction between the two components to get the desired result.  I think they are on the correct path.

I do sound from time to time at Club Mighty in San Francisco, who were one of the early installs for the new Avalon series. They've got six of those subs in there, and I find them to sound very nice. It lines up a bit with what I've been thinking about EDM-oriented systems: that extension and dynamics don't necessarily need to go together; the really deep bass tends to have more continuous tones while the punchiness and dynamics happen more in the upper bass. Given these two different needs, it seems reasonable to take a different route to supporting each. The availability of DSP which can twist the phase of the two different subs around to play nicely with one another seems like a key to making the approach work. It's a bit reminiscent of the "kick bins" in some of the boutique club systems out there.
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Andrew Brubaker on February 11, 2014, 08:40:01 pm
What subs would you pair with 4 srx728 and what octaves would you put each set in?
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Andrew Brubaker on February 26, 2014, 07:03:31 pm
What subs would you pair with 4 srx728 and what octaves would you put each set in?

Anyone have any thoughts or recommendations?
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on February 26, 2014, 07:29:59 pm

What subs would you pair with 4 srx728 and what octaves would you put each set in?

We need more info, how big is the crowd? Indoors/outdoors? What kind of music? How low do you (actually) need to go?

Assuming they met the requirements for extension down low, I'd probably just stack more 728's until I had the SPL needed. Obviously at some point of scale it would make more sense to switch to a higher output box though.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Andrew Brubaker on February 26, 2014, 10:17:41 pm
We need more info, how big is the crowd? Indoors/outdoors? What kind of music? How low do you (actually) need to go?

Assuming they met the requirements for extension down low, I'd probably just stack more 728's until I had the SPL needed. Obviously at some point of scale it would make more sense to switch to a higher output box though.

The question I am asking is strictly for EDM style. Almost always indoors. 100-400 people typically. Ideally the lower the better (aka down to mid 20s or lower). I realize that the 728 do not do so hot down lower than 30. I would be glad for them to just take it down to around 28 or 29 (realizing that their -10 is around 27 and that it definitely won't be quite as powerful down there). I think more where I am lacking is in the "smack" range (80-100) or so. I have them set at JBL's recommended crossover setting around 80 but the mains just don't have enough smack to them (MRX525) because they really start to drop around 100 even though I have a crossover set to meet the subs. So I'm more looking for something to take that middle smack range and I'd rather not have the 728s cover that range and just keep them at their preferred crossover. (I also don't like the way the SRX sound in that slightly higher register as I have experimented with a crossover closer to 100 and wasn't terribly pleased with the results).

The other option of course is to start the quest over for different subs or build some LABs but I like the sound of the 728s for the most part.
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Mike Christy on February 27, 2014, 06:00:28 am
Just a thought.. "smack" range I think of as actually from the tops, not the subs, with "punch" or "whomph" from the subs... are your tops/sub  phase aligned through the xover region?

If a system has poorly phase response through the crossover point, you will be sacrificing that "smack/attack"  and it can be mush, at least with live sound, not sure about EDM...
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Nick Enright on February 27, 2014, 10:39:09 am
Just a thought.. "smack" range I think of as actually from the tops, not the subs, with "punch" or "whomph" from the subs... are your tops/sub  phase aligned through the xover region?

If a system has poorly phase response through the crossover point, you will be sacrificing that "smack/attack"  and it can be mush, at least with live sound, not sure about EDM...

absolutely, more so in some cases, since there is no (or little) stage volume.
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 27, 2014, 12:05:54 pm
absolutely, more so in some cases, since there is no (or little) stage volume.
You've obviously not listened to some of the monitor systems we have provided for EDM shows---------------------

Of course it is the same signal-but does create some "mud" to the dance floor.
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on February 27, 2014, 02:44:21 pm
The question I am asking is strictly for EDM style. Almost always indoors. 100-400 people typically. Ideally the lower the better (aka down to mid 20s or lower). I realize that the 728 do not do so hot down lower than 30. I would be glad for them to just take it down to around 28 or 29 (realizing that their -10 is around 27 and that it definitely won't be quite as powerful down there). I think more where I am lacking is in the "smack" range (80-100) or so. I have them set at JBL's recommended crossover setting around 80 but the mains just don't have enough smack to them (MRX525) because they really start to drop around 100 even though I have a crossover set to meet the subs. So I'm more looking for something to take that middle smack range and I'd rather not have the 728s cover that range and just keep them at their preferred crossover. (I also don't like the way the SRX sound in that slightly higher register as I have experimented with a crossover closer to 100 and wasn't terribly pleased with the results).

The other option of course is to start the quest over for different subs or build some LABs but I like the sound of the 728s for the most part.

EDM is not very specific, is it Top 40 dance with not much below 45Hz or underground dubstep/dnb with lots of content below 35 Hz?

I have serious doubts that you actually need response into the low 20Hz range.

Just a thought.. "smack" range I think of as actually from the tops, not the subs, with "punch" or "whomph" from the subs... are your tops/sub  phase aligned through the xover region?

This, proper alignment between subs and tops would help with "smack"" or "punch". Upgrading to some more stout tops might help as well, SRX or STX would be a good move.
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 27, 2014, 05:03:49 pm
EDM is not very specific, is it Top 40 dance with not much below 45Hz or underground dubstep/dnb with lots of content below 35 Hz?

I have serious doubts that you actually need response into the low 20Hz range.


I admit I don't have a lot of experience in EDM (that will change next month however), but the shows I have done have 'drops" that go down to 20Hz or even below in some cases.

It depends on how important it is to the artist to be able to reproduce what they put on the record.

Even normal "pop" music goes pretty low.  Look at all the 5 string bass guitars out there.

The low B is around 31Hz.  So if don't think your system needs to go that low-I DARE you to go tell the bass player that he needs to remove his B string because your system can't reproduce it.

Or you could just tell him not to play it-----------------------------

There are plenty of "normal" music pieces that go well below 40hz.

Again-doe it matter if you can hear the music as the artist intended?
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Nick Enright on February 27, 2014, 07:26:20 pm
You've obviously not listened to some of the monitor systems we have provided for EDM shows---------------------

Of course it is the same signal-but does create some "mud" to the dance floor.

I guess I should say that there's a difference btw the stage volume of a band, and the stage volume of a DJ with booth out feeding his monitors.

And as it's basically the same signal, the FOH on the stages I've run/worked has been significantly louder and/or delayed to the monitor stacks. (Commonly -- nexo b1-18+alpha-ef or Meyer HP700+3pcs mica) Where the FOH rig will be twice if not many times louder/more powerfull than the monitors.


In the case of the band unless you're timing every instrument to a zero reference plane, there'll always be some mis-alignment zone about time zero, we could call it the zone of confusion. With DJ inputs with masters feeding FOH, and booth feeding Mons; this zone of confusion will be much smaller, and may be essentially eliminated.

With proper monitors and a sufficient FOH rig I've not had DJ's be so much of a problem in the last 5 years or so.
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 27, 2014, 08:10:41 pm
I guess I should say that there's a difference btw the stage volume of a band, and the stage volume of a DJ with booth out feeding his monitors.

And as it's basically the same signal, the FOH on the stages I've run/worked has been significantly louder and/or delayed to the monitor stacks. (Commonly -- nexo b1-18+alpha-ef or Meyer HP700+3pcs mica) Where the FOH rig will be twice if not many times louder/more powerfull than the monitors.


In the case of the band unless you're timing every instrument to a zero reference plane, there'll always be some mis-alignment zone about time zero, we could call it the zone of confusion. With DJ inputs with masters feeding FOH, and booth feeding Mons; this zone of confusion will be much smaller, and may be essentially eliminated.

With proper monitors and a sufficient FOH rig I've not had DJ's be so much of a problem in the last 5 years or so.
Our typical EDM monitor setup is a pair of TH118s with SM80s on top. 

I know of jobs that had the equivalent of 12 2x18" subs-tops had 4x1.4" hf, 8 12" horn loaded lows and 16 mids.

And the artist said it was "just oK" when pushed to the limits.

Can you say DEAF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess it depends on the artist and their "needs".
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 01, 2014, 10:59:49 am
Again-doe it matter if you can hear the music as the artist intended?

It depends on whether or not one considers the creation to be 'art'. /snark

What really matters is whether or not the CLIENT thinks 20Hz is worth paying for.  If not.... ;)
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 01, 2014, 01:49:29 pm
It depends on whether or not one considers the creation to be 'art'. /snark

What really matters is whether or not the CLIENT thinks 20Hz is worth paying for.  If not.... ;)
Art varies from person to person.

But I will say this-I could care less for EDM in a "normal" listening situation.

HOWEVER in a live situation (club etc) with a GOOD system that goes down low-clean and solid-there is something to be said for the "experience".

The regular "dance beats" are just boring to me-but a good drop can be a lot of fun-and you look forward to it.

But without a system that can do it-a lot would get lost.

In a couple of weeks i should get my fill of it in Miami during the WMC (Ultrafest) as we are providing for 3 venues.

But it is not something I would listen to at home or in my car.  Maybe I am just to old---------
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 01, 2014, 02:13:20 pm
Art varies from person to person.

But I will say this-I could care less for EDM in a "normal" listening situation.

HOWEVER in a live situation (club etc) with a GOOD system that goes down low-clean and solid-there is something to be said for the "experience".

The regular "dance beats" are just boring to me-but a good drop can be a lot of fun-and you look forward to it.

But without a system that can do it-a lot would get lost.

In a couple of weeks i should get my fill of it in Miami during the WMC (Ultrafest) as we are providing for 3 venues.

But it is not something I would listen to at home or in my car.  Maybe I am just to old---------

As providers it's a commercial decision based on client expectations and budget to meet same.  Art?  He works at the deli downtown, but he's the same to everyone. ;)

Just as soon as 16Hz is the new 40Hz (with equipment to do it full time) there will be 8Hz content.  There may be some now, as we found out in NYC in 2007, there was content in the track that killed the Quakes that nobody knew was there (12Hz, IIRC).
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Art Welter on March 01, 2014, 03:10:20 pm
Art?  He works at the deli downtown, but he's the same to everyone. ;)

Just as soon as 16Hz is the new 40Hz (with equipment to do it full time) there will be 8Hz content.  There may be some now, as we found out in NYC in 2007, there was content in the track that killed the Quakes that nobody knew was there (12Hz, IIRC).
Tim,

I may be retiring from mixing live sound on a regular basis, but I have not taken a job at the deli yet ;).

Not only is there 8 Hz content (Bass I Love You by Bass Mekanik springs to mind) there is loads of EDM with as little as 3 dB dynamic range below 100 Hz, the equivalent of running sine waves, double the average power of the 6 dB dynamic range of the EIA426 test signal used for almost all drivers.

Average limiters set to half the nominal power rating may become the new paradigm  :-\.

Art

Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 01, 2014, 03:51:47 pm

Average limiters set to half the nominal power rating may become the new paradigm  :-\.

Art
People usually "freak out" when I suggest limiters (slow attack) at 1/2 the rated "continuous" rating of the loudspeaker.

They think "continuous" means constant.

I try to explain to them that the ratings are based on test signals that "try" to simulate music content-but that "content" is old and in my opinion does not reflect all current music styles-particularly dance music.

A lot of this music is basically sine waves-which is very hard on loudspeakers and starts to really show the difference in "burst power" amplifiers.

Those bursts are fine for "kick drum rock and roll" but do little for modern dance music.

THAT is what starts to separate the men from the boys in amplifiers.

How LONG can it provide the power and what level does it drop down to after that?

THAT is the thing the amp manufacturers want to keep "hidden"-but IS important for this type of music.

And when you add to that dance events that last for 72 hours NON STOP-no break between artists-no break between songs-no "slow" songs etc-the toll on gear can be tough.  So systems have to be "throttled back" so they are not being pushed anywhere near maximum.

Of course this means you have to bring more "rig for the gig", but at least it will keep working at the end.

The nice thing about "standards" is that there are so many to choose from-and I am not aware of a "standard" for EDM yet-unless you want to run sine waves AT THE MINIMUM IMPEDANCE and see what wattage you end up with.

But it will not be anywhere near the "normal" wattage rating-so it makes it hard to compete against products that are measured in a different way.

Most consumers (even "professional" ones) have no clue about how things are rated.

Heck most can't even read a simple freq response chart and tell you where the -3dB point is (in relation to the rated sensitivity).

They simply rely on what the manufacturers "says" it is-even if THEIR OWN GRAPH says something completely different.

OH WELL----------------------

It requires "effort" to be able "think" about specs-it is MUCH easier to just "believe" what they are telling you is the truth------

I'll stop now before I say what I believe
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on March 01, 2014, 04:12:08 pm
Tim nailed it, OP needs to decide if 20Hz response will earn him more money than 40Hz or 30Hz response, that extra octave is an expensive investment.

I'll stop now before I say what I believe

Don't hold back!  8) I love reading your posts Ivan, so much truth.
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 01, 2014, 04:37:12 pm

Don't hold back!  8) I love reading your posts Ivan, so much truth.

I will not mention any names or brands in the following true story.

Just this week we had a contractor (who does multi million dollar installs) question our choice for a particular loudspeaker for part of a job.

In this particular case-that loudspeaker would be highpassed around 200-300Hz.

But they were saying that brand "XYZ" (Very famous that EVERYBODY knows who it is) choice of speaker went lower than ours.  Ours was -3dB around 113Hz, and theirs 'said" -3dB at 56Hz (or around there).  HOWEVER if you look at THEIR OWN response graph-56Hz was more like 15dB down.  NOT 3. 

But they were not interested in looking at the graph-only the "simple" numbers on the front of the spec sheet.  You had to "turn it over-a lot of effort" to see the response graph!!!!!!!!!!

And it really doesn't matter-since all of that would be cut out ANYWAY via the highpass filter.

And there were other reasons why our choice would be better (especially since the REASON those speakers were being replaced was that they were failing---------so let's just replace them with the SAME THING that is going bad????????????? Makes sense to me-------------), but they seem to be "hung up" on the low freq number-that is meaningless in this particular situation.

So it just goes to show you at even at "the top of the food chain", there are falsehoods and people who don't understand even the basics and just want "simple wrong answers"
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Andrew Brubaker on March 02, 2014, 10:27:22 pm
HOWEVER in a live situation (club etc) with a GOOD system that goes down low-clean and solid-there is something to be said for the "experience".

The regular "dance beats" are just boring to me-but a good drop can be a lot of fun-and you look forward to it.

But without a system that can do it-a lot would get lost.

I agree completely.
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Andrew Brubaker on March 02, 2014, 10:36:29 pm
But they were saying that brand "XYZ" (Very famous that EVERYBODY knows who it is) choice of speaker went lower than ours.  Ours was -3dB around 113Hz, and theirs 'said" -3dB at 56Hz (or around there).  HOWEVER if you look at THEIR OWN response graph-56Hz was more like 15dB down.  NOT 3. 

Funny you should say that...the same situation is true for the loudspeakers I am currently using (MRX525) and brings me back to my question about mid-bass smack. Would I be better served in getting mains that actually cover that freq range better or looking at a mid-bass sub solution? The only real lack in this range that I have noticed in from EDM music where there is a driving "kick" to the song. For regular rock and roll bands they have done ok.

And I'm with Tim that at the moment I will just stick with the subs I have and the range they offer though I may look at subs that will get me closer to 20hz in the near future.

Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 03, 2014, 06:47:24 am
Funny you should say that...the same situation is true for the loudspeakers I am currently using (MRX525) and brings me back to my question about mid-bass smack. Would I be better served in getting mains that actually cover that freq range better or looking at a mid-bass sub solution? The only real lack in this range that I have noticed in from EDM music where there is a driving "kick" to the song. For regular rock and roll bands they have done ok.

And I'm with Tim that at the moment I will just stick with the subs I have and the range they offer though I may look at subs that will get me closer to 20hz in the near future.
It is a common "desire" to simply add speakers to cover areas that people feel are "lacking".

However in reality it is not that easy-to do right.

The more crossover points you have-the harder it is to get it all "lined up" and working together properly.

Many people "think" that the freq response simply stops at the crossover points.

This is NOT what happens.  The freq bands overlap each other-AND INTERFERE with each other in the ranges they overlap.

Getting them to "work together" is beyond most people capabilities/knowledge.  It si NOT as simple as putting a crossover in the chain.
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Andrew Brubaker on March 03, 2014, 11:08:52 am
It is a common "desire" to simply add speakers to cover areas that people feel are "lacking".

However in reality it is not that easy-to do right.

The more crossover points you have-the harder it is to get it all "lined up" and working together properly.

What would be your recommendation then, Ivan. Replace the tops with ones that actually reach into the desired frequency range and forget about the mid sub idea?
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 03, 2014, 08:41:52 pm
What would be your recommendation then, Ivan. Replace the tops with ones that actually reach into the desired frequency range and forget about the mid sub idea?
Yes.

I am not saying that you can't simply add some speakers to cover the freq range you want.

Yes it will "work", but may very well not work as well as cabinets that are properly aligned.

The real "trick" is getting different cabinets to "play well" with each other.  Yes they will all make noise-but is it a good noise?
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 03, 2014, 08:46:06 pm
What would be your recommendation then, Ivan. Replace the tops with ones that actually reach into the desired frequency range and forget about the mid sub idea?
We are taking 3 systems down to WMC (ultrafest) this year and they are basically 2 way (cabinets anyway) systems.  Subs and full range cabinets. 

The full range cabinets go low enough and strong enough on their own.  So the subs are just that-subs-not bass cabinets.
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Andrew Brubaker on March 04, 2014, 11:24:08 am
We are taking 3 systems down to WMC (ultrafest) this year and they are basically 2 way (cabinets anyway) systems.  Subs and full range cabinets. 

The full range cabinets go low enough and strong enough on their own.  So the subs are just that-subs-not bass cabinets.

Thank you for the input! Wish I could make it out to ultra to see the setup you're bringing.

So I am planning on just replacing the tops but I'm curious. Going off the OP main idea, what would you look for in a mid sub?  I'm assuming you will probably see several set ups incorporating the use of them in Florida
Title: Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 05, 2014, 07:33:51 am
Thank you for the input! Wish I could make it out to ultra to see the setup you're bringing.

So I am planning on just replacing the tops but I'm curious. Going off the OP main idea, what would you look for in a mid sub?  I'm assuming you will probably see several set ups incorporating the use of them in Florida
If you "have" to have a "mid sub", then I would look for something that has the SPL capability to keep up with the rest of the rig.

It should also be small enough so that it can be close enough wavelength wise to the upper part of its freq band so that can "mesh" with the next higher element.

So what do that really mean?

It means YOU have to determine what "keeping up spl wise" really means-based on the REAL capability of the rest of the rig.  Without knowing the rest-there is no guess that can be made.

Same thing goes with the physical size-without knowing what the rest of the rig is-it is purely a guess based on no usable information.

Of course it also depends on what some people "think" looks cool.  And if you are going to stack it up-it depends on the rest of the rig and the physical dimensions-what your capability to stack are etc.  Is it 1 or 2 people?  Do you have a fork lift? and so forth.

The REAL answer depends on MANY pieces of information.

But for me-it is not the approach I would take.  But other companies make money off  of simply providing products that people want-not what they need or understand.

So why don't we have a system that has subs-mid bass-low mids-high mids-highs and ultra high-all in separate boxes?  Because you will never be able to get them to sound correct or accurate-due to the physical spacing-different crossovers and so forth.

Yes it may "look cool" and in real simple "theory" work-UNTIL you start to actually measure it and try to get it lined up-IN MORE THAN ONE LISTENING POSITION!!!!!!!!!!!!

People often forget that there are many people at an event-and with separated devices-that is going to cause notching in the response so it will be different at different seats.

How much of a problem is it?  It depends on your expectations.

There have been millions of concerts that have this problem and billions of people who walked away with a good experience.

But could it be better?  In most cases YES.  But it depends on "what you are after" and people are after different things.  To some it is all about the visual-to others it is all about the cost-to others the sound really matters and so forth.

So as usual-it depends-----------------