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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => Installed Sound/Contracting FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: Richard Hebert on December 04, 2010, 05:59:55 pm

Title: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Richard Hebert on December 04, 2010, 05:59:55 pm
We all agree more or less that the quality of finish is what separates us from electricians.Everyone can strip a wire and just get it in under screws in phoenix connectors and that's about it for a lot of companies. I don't subscribe to that way of thinking.
I beleive the finish should leave nothing that can be touched even a ground wire. I used to do this with an expandable sleeving called Helsyn when i was working for another company. Excellent product, but Hellermann Tyton does not answer our queries for the product.We have been using heat shrink and whatever i had left of stock. But here comes in a new contract with a bunch of Veam 150 pin connectors and bunches of snakes , panel mounted jacks and so on and so forth. As a group we would like to find a new distributor that wouldn't be my ex boss if you know what i mean Smile

Thing is .. is anything new replacing Helsyn ?
What are you using instead of it ? Heat shrink ?
Is there a newer product you guys use that is doing a better job ?

In fact , what are you using for your top of the line installs ?

Id like to hear from you.

Richard Hebert
Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC on December 04, 2010, 10:55:31 pm
Everyone can strip a wire and just get it in under screws in phoenix connectors... I don't subscribe to that way of thinking.
I beleive the finish should leave nothing that can be touched even a ground wire.


I'm not quite sure what Helsyn is, how it works or how you are using it. It sounds like you need heat shrink sleeving or regular PVC sleeving of the proper size. That's what we use- assuming we are talking about the same application.

-Hal
Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Tom Young on December 05, 2010, 06:35:05 am
Perhaps the OP means "expandable braided/woven sleeve" ?

http://www.sourcical.com/product/productid/12/sename/pet-exp andable-braided-sleeving-general-purpose.aspx?gclid=CMeIkNmB 1aUCFYSK4AodSU5VkA

or:

http://cableorganizer.com/wire-management/?engine=google& ;s_kwcid=TC|6214|braided%20sleeve||S|p|5938744815&gclid= CLPCjKeC1aUCFcfe4AodOl4Xlw

Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Richard Hebert on December 05, 2010, 07:12:51 am
Hi guys.
Thanks for answering.

The sleeving in question is a kind of rubber sleeve about 3/4 inch long ( comes in all sizes ) that you slip onto a " stretcher " and with the help of a lubricant fluid ( which also reacts with the powder in the sleeve ) that's simply slipped over the wire and the ground sleeve and keeps it together.It is a process that totally avoids any heating and we know how heat can easily damage the individual jackets and heat sensitive inner insulation materials.

Heat near cables is to be avoided at all costs imho.
I have seen too many tech's work where you saw burnt or melted insulation.That system totally avoids it.

Im dealing with a lot of more or less experienced techs that have trouble keeping out of trouble with heat shrink, which is why company wide we are trying to locate and use this system.

BTW comes in a bunch of colors so you can have easy id of ex  .. red is " live on the air " green is lines , yellow mics  etc  etc.

Richard Hebert
CEV Montreal Canada



Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Tom Young on December 05, 2010, 07:37:20 am
I've seen melted/burnt wiring when a butane lighter is used to shrink tubing. Suppose it could also happen with a heatshrink gun if the "operator" has no clue. But, in general, heat shrink works very well for me.

I think you may be thinking of the Hellerman sleeve "system".

Google on "hellerman sleeve" and you should find ample sources.
Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Brad Weber on December 05, 2010, 08:34:31 am
Richard Hebert wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 17:59

We all agree more or less that the quality of finish is what separates us from electricians.

I think (and hope) there is much more differentiation than that, although where you are located and what scope of work an Electrician normally performs may affect that.
Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Brad Weber on December 05, 2010, 08:35:00 am
Duplicate post, sorry!
Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC on December 05, 2010, 03:24:08 pm
Tom Young wrote on Sun, 05 December 2010 07:37

I've seen melted/burnt wiring when a butane lighter is used to shrink tubing. Suppose it could also happen with a heatshrink gun if the "operator" has no clue. But, in general, heat shrink works very well for me.


I agree. I've seen hacks use a lighter and even matches but of course a hot air heat gun is the proper way.

I completely disagree with the OP's statement that "heat near cables needs to be avoided at all costs". Cables are born of heat when the thermoplastic is extruded to form them. Fabrication with the proper degree and source of heat to install shrink sleeving is not going to cause any harm. Shrink sleeving has been used extensively by the electronics industry for over 40 years and will meet military and aerospace standards.

Im dealing with a lot of more or less experienced techs that have trouble keeping out of trouble with heat shrink, which is why company wide we are trying to locate and use this system.

In my book if a tech burns or deforms the cable jacket or insulation when installing shrink he or she needs further training or to be fired, don't blame the product! Same would go for poor soldering technique that burns the insulation or cable. These are very basic skills that anybody that calls themselves a tech should have mastered.

I also take issue with using any kind of fluid-

...you slip onto a " stretcher " and with the help of a lubricant fluid ( which also reacts with the powder in the sleeve ) that's simply slipped over the wire and the ground sleeve and keeps it together...

Any remaining liquid will get wicked up into the cable by capillary action and that could react with the plastic compounds. I would be very wary of a system that installed in that manner, aside from the fact that it seems to be a very cumbersome and time consuming method to begin with.

-Hal    
Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Adam Kane on December 05, 2010, 09:24:06 pm
Anyone causing damage to cables while using heat shrink is either:

a) Using too large a heat gun for the task at hand (or has it on the "blast furnace" setting).

b) Holding it too close to the work.

c) Failing to keep the heat source moving.

As Hal said, anyone not familiar with (what I think are) basic cable termination techniques should be placed elsewhere on the job. If they display the aptitude, train them and have them practice on some scraps back at the shop until you're satisfied with the quality of their work.

If they just don't get it...well...somewhere, there are some fries that need salting.

Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Geoff Doane on December 08, 2010, 02:57:56 pm
Richard Hebert wrote on Sun, 05 December 2010 08:12

The sleeving in question is a kind of rubber sleeve about 3/4 inch long ( comes in all sizes ) that you slip onto a " stretcher " and with the help of a lubricant fluid ( which also reacts with the powder in the sleeve ) that's simply slipped over the wire and the ground sleeve and keeps it together.It is a process that totally avoids any heating and we know how heat can easily damage the individual jackets and heat sensitive inner insulation materials.



We call that stuff "Hellerman sleeves" although it isn't always made by Hellerman.  I have a bag of 3mm x 3/4" sleeves here (I love how they mix their units of measure) that seem to be made by "CERCO".  The address is reasonably local to you though,

10149 Cote de Liesse
Dorval, QC
H9P 1A3

For those who haven't used it, its chief advantage over heat shrink is that you can work with it after you've applied it to the cable.  So, I can apply a sleeve to the end of the stripped cable, and a few minutes later, slide the PVC tubing over the drain wire.  If I change my mind, and decide I want a longer piece of PVC, I can simply pull the short one off, and replace it with a longer one, without having to install a new sleeve.  And I don't have to deal with the noise of a heat gun while terminating dozens of wires Cool .

GTD
Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC on December 08, 2010, 07:21:50 pm
I can apply a sleeve to the end of the stripped cable, and a few minutes later, slide the PVC tubing over the drain wire. If I change my mind, and decide I want a longer piece of PVC, I can simply pull the short one off, and replace it with a longer one, without having to install a new sleeve.

Are you saying that you slide the expanded end sleeving onto the cable, sleeve your drain wire, terminate the cable then "un-expand" the sleeve? Sounds like a lot of work to me.

I think the answer to that is to leave the wires plenty long to begin with along with the sleeved drain wire and shrink the end cap over all of it. Then you cut to length the drain wire and  strip the PVC sleeving off the drain wire where you need to with your strippers, just like the other wires in the cable. If I had to fuss with re-dressing the cable ends because it's too short it means I screwed up someplace. But that's just me. With shrink sleeving and the above method you can shrink multiple cables at once, cut, strip and terminate. Been doing it that way for over 40 years and never melted or burned a cable.

That said, whatever floats your boat. But there must be a reason why that stuff is hard to get and not seen in the US and I'm willing to bet it's because it's not very popular.

-Hal

Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Geoff Doane on December 08, 2010, 09:39:48 pm
Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 20:21

Are you saying that you slide the expanded end sleeving onto the cable, sleeve your drain wire, terminate the cable then "un-expand" the sleeve? Sounds like a lot of work to me.



No, once the sleeve is on the cable I wouldn't likely do anything more with it, but because it isn't yet tight like heatshrink would be, it's possible to slip the "spaghetti" tubing over the drain wire afterwards instead of before.

The particular "spaghetti" tubing we use is not exactly teflon or PVC, but something in between.  It doesn't strip easily.  You're much better off just cutting it to length, and then slipping it over the drain wire.

Here are some photo examples.  The Hellerman sleeves are the grey things around the wire where the jacket was stripped off.

index.php/fa/34120/0/

On this job I was replacing a MASS insert with a new (old stock Cannon) one because the Whirlwind was contaminated.  It would have been a whole lot more difficult if the original installer had used heatshrink over the individual pins, instead of the larger size of clear tubing.

I've prepped wires both ways over the years, but have come to prefer the rubber sleeve technique.  It's quite common in British gear, and I believe it's also common in Mil Spec stuff as well on this side of the ocean.  I'm quite confident that the oil has no adverse effect on the wiring integrity, or it wouldn't have been used for this long in critical applications.  The sleeves do sometimes dry out and crack after years in hot, low humidity environments.  Maybe those ones weren't neoprene.

GTD

Title: Re: Wiring job finish, Helsyn
Post by: Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC on December 08, 2010, 11:16:51 pm
It would have been a whole lot more difficult if the original installer had used heatshrink over the individual pins, instead of the larger size of clear tubing.

There you are absolutely correct. Shrink should never be used on the pins. In my first job out of high school the company I worked for made equipment that used Amphenol connectors by the thousands. I would venture a guess that I have wired over a million pins like that. We used clear PVC sleeving to insulate the pins just large enough to be a snug fit. One hint is to make it a real snug fit and slide them on while the pin is still warm from soldering. That way they won't come off but can be easily pulled of with needlenose pliers. To cut the sleeving to uniform lengths we made our own cutters. You would feed the sleeving in until it hits a stop then a blade cuts it off.

And your clear sleeving on the drain wires does look like teflon. Should cut easily with the proper stripper.

-Hal