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Title: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Rob Spence on November 28, 2010, 06:04:37 pm
I was looking at the sidechain inputs of the LS9 gates the other day thinking to use the SMAART spectrograph to identify the fundamentals of some drums and set up the filters on the gates.

Well, it looked like the controls were grayed out on my desk though it let me change the values. Is that normal or is there some "enable" I have to do?
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Mac Kerr on November 28, 2010, 06:32:01 pm
Rob Spence wrote on Sun, 28 November 2010 18:04

I was looking at the sidechain inputs of the LS9 gates the other day thinking to use the SMAART spectrograph to identify the fundamentals of some drums and set up the filters on the gates.

Well, it looked like the controls were grayed out on my desk though it let me change the values. Is that normal or is there some "enable" I have to do?



I'm not familiar with the LS9, but do you have a key input source selected beside "self".

Mac
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Rob Spence on November 28, 2010, 11:01:54 pm
Mac Kerr wrote on Sun, 28 November 2010 18:32

Rob Spence wrote on Sun, 28 November 2010 18:04

I was looking at the sidechain inputs of the LS9 gates the other day thinking to use the SMAART spectrograph to identify the fundamentals of some drums and set up the filters on the gates.

Well, it looked like the controls were grayed out on my desk though it let me change the values. Is that normal or is there some "enable" I have to do?



I'm not familiar with the LS9, but do you have a key input source selected beside "self".

Mac

I selected self post EQ for the source
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Andrew Broughton on November 29, 2010, 01:06:29 pm
You have to have an input channel selected (not an output) and the "ON" button pushed (above and right of the key freq control).

index.php/fa/33967/0/
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Rob Spence on November 29, 2010, 06:16:49 pm
Andrew Broughton wrote on Mon, 29 November 2010 13:06

You have to have an input channel selected (not an output) and the "ON" button pushed (above and right of the key freq control).

index.php/fa/33967/0/

Thanks. It was dark in the room when I was looking at this and couldn't even read the ON button... Though, it looks like it turns on the HPF Smile
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Scott Helmke (Scodiddly) on November 29, 2010, 06:24:29 pm
Rob Spence wrote on Mon, 29 November 2010 17:16

Andrew Broughton wrote on Mon, 29 November 2010 13:06

You have to have an input channel selected (not an output) and the "ON" button pushed (above and right of the key freq control).

index.php/fa/33967/0/
Though, it looks like it turns on the HPF Smile



That particular button lets you select the filter type, a very useful feature.    Cool
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Tim Padrick on December 02, 2010, 01:14:24 am
The sidechain filter changes the gates from chattery crap (much worse than an ACP88) to quite nice (almost as good as a G4).

There's no need to use an analyzer - just cue the sidechain listen in the phones and spin the dial.

I wish they'd add sidechain EQ to the comps (and put the d'esser in the first dynamic instead of the second).
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Rob Spence on December 10, 2010, 10:22:35 pm
Tim Padrick wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 01:14

The sidechain filter changes the gates from chattery crap (much worse than an ACP88) to quite nice (almost as good as a G4).

There's no need to use an analyzer - just cue the sidechain listen in the phones and spin the dial.

I wish they'd add sidechain EQ to the comps (and put the d'esser in the first dynamic instead of the second).

I used it last night and it worked great.

One thing that bothers me is that the Q & Freq knobs still look grayed out even with them on - oh, and there is an ON in SM but not that I can see on the desk itself. Bug?
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Andrew Broughton on December 11, 2010, 03:20:51 am
Rob Spence wrote on Fri, 10 December 2010 20:22

One thing that bothers me is that the Q & Freq knobs still look grayed out even with them on - oh, and there is an ON in SM but not that I can see on the desk itself. Bug?

You probably didn't choose a filter type.

From the manual:
Quote:

KEY IN FILTER field (GATE and DUCKING
only)
This field lets you apply a filter to the key-in signal.
This field provides a FILTER box that lets you select
the filter type, a Q knob (which adjusts the Q of the filter),
and a FREQ knob (which adjusts the cutoff frequency
or center frequency).
To change the filter type, move the cursor to the FILTER
BOX and use the dial or the [DEC]/[INC] keys to
select either HPF (high-pass filter), BPF (band-pass
filter), or LPF (low-pass filter); then press the
[ENTER] key. If you select “----” in the FILTER box,
no filter will be applied.


There's no "On" button, it's on if you choose a filter type, off if it shows "----".


index.php/fa/34169/0/
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Rob Spence on December 11, 2010, 05:07:14 pm
Andy, I did choose BPF and you are right, there is no "on" button on the desk, there IS an ON button in Studio Manager.

In SM, when you select BPF it un-grays the Q knob. On the Desk, it always looks like the Q and Freq knobs are grayed out - very hard to read.

Oh, and Andy, I really like SOF!!! Nice for standing next to the performer and setting mons levels.
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Andrew Broughton on December 15, 2010, 01:41:17 am
Rob Spence wrote on Sat, 11 December 2010 15:07

Oh, and Andy, I really like SOF!!! Nice for standing next to the performer and setting mons levels.

Smile Glad it helps!
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: John H. O'Brien on December 15, 2010, 02:15:45 am
So, from what I'm reading, using the 'sidechain' feature allows a user to determine which frequency the gate opens for, or does it just tell the gate to open upon hearing that frequency?
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Jonathan Schroeder on December 15, 2010, 11:31:28 am
John H. O'Brien wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 01:15

So, from what I'm reading, using the 'sidechain' feature allows a user to determine which frequency the gate opens for, or does it just tell the gate to open upon hearing that frequency?


It opens the gate to the entire signal based on when the selected frequency range hits the threshold, but it still passes the entire signal.

Jon
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: John H. O'Brien on December 16, 2010, 05:48:36 pm
huh. something new to try.
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Michael Lewis on February 12, 2011, 02:32:03 pm
Hey guys.. I just started using the side chain of the gates of the LS9.. Any of you can share what type of filter, frequency and Q would you use for the following sources typically?

1) male / female vocals
2) drums (kick, snare, toms, hats).. do you all gate overheads?
3) electric guitar amp cabs

I'm new to using frequency controlled gates so I really don't have much experience and just seeking to learn from the you guys, the pros. Today this is roughly what I did for the gates

vocals : around 1khz and Q = 1, BPF
Kick: around 160Hz and Q = 1, BPF
amp cab: around 600Hz and Q = 1, BPF

(the place was very small so didn't mic up the rest of the drum kit.. I had an overhead mic but didn't gate it.

I know there's no right or wrong but I'm just trying to see if there's a good guideline for using the gates. Any advice is appreciated. Hope to hear from you guys..

I also can't quite grasp the concept of the 'range' control for the gates. Can anyone explain to me? Thank you.
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Jordan Wolf on February 13, 2011, 01:32:43 am
I want to preface this by saying that I am approaching this from an analog standpoint, so it's not exactly in line with the question, but I figured I could interject some info.

Michael Lewis wrote on Sat, 12 February 2011 14:32


1) male / female vocals

None...and why?

Quote:

2) drums (kick, snare, toms, hats).. do you all gate overheads?

Kick: centered around something that the bass guitar won't also activate, though that might not be a bad thing necessarily.

Snare, toms: Use the Key Listen (or similar) function and decide from there...I tend to go for the "body" of the snare rather than the "snap", since the hi-hat can open it if I set the filter frequency too high.

Toms, I just listen for what sticks out from each one and go from there - not very explicit, I know, but it's how I roll.  Depending on the genre, I may tighten up the lower toms' sounds by way of a shorter release time.

Hi-hat, OH's: No gate.

Quote:

3) electric guitar amp cabs

I don't usually use gates on them...but then again, my amount of said units is limited, so I generally let me fingers do the work.


Quote:

I also can't quite grasp the concept of the 'range' control for the gates. Can anyone explain to me? Thank you.

Usually, range (or depth) refers to how much attenuation occurs when the signal is at or below the threshold setting.  

Drawmer's gates, for example, have a setting of either "-90dB" or "-20dB", I believe.  If you set the unit to -90dB, the signal is all but gone when at/below threshold; if you set it to -20dB and are at/below threshold, the signal is only knocked down by 20dB and can still be heard, albeit at a lower level.

Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Michael Lewis on February 13, 2011, 06:53:26 am
Jordan Wolf wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 14:32

I want to preface this by saying that I am approaching this from an analog standpoint, so it's not exactly in line with the question, but I figured I could interject some info.

Michael Lewis wrote on Sat, 12 February 2011 14:32


1) male / female vocals

None...and why?




I work with a lot of smaller stages where the drums or guitar cabs are just within 5-10 meters of the vocal mics. I tend to gate almost everything that I can gate just to clean up the mix as much as I can. Without gates, the mix will be a big mess. Vocals mics are usually what I have trouble with without gates as they pick up almost everything on stage when the stage is very small and there's a full band playing on it.
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Jordan Wolf on February 13, 2011, 11:35:44 pm
Michael Lewis wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 06:53

Jordan Wolf wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 14:32

I want to preface this by saying that I am approaching this from an analog standpoint, so it's not exactly in line with the question, but I figured I could interject some info.

Michael Lewis wrote on Sat, 12 February 2011 14:32


1) male / female vocals

None...and why?




I work with a lot of smaller stages where the drums or guitar cabs are just within 5-10 meters of the vocal mics. I tend to gate almost everything that I can gate just to clean up the mix as much as I can. Without gates, the mix will be a big mess. Vocals mics are usually what I have trouble with without gates as they pick up almost everything on stage when the stage is very small and there's a full band playing on it.

I understand your frustration.  The problem I have noticed with gating vocals is that, while the gate does help when no one's singing, when there is singing, all the mess comes back into the mix.

Maybe the group's mic technique needs to be improved upon or stage volume needs to be better regulated?
Title: Re: Sidechain on LS9 gates
Post by: Michael Lewis on February 14, 2011, 02:51:03 am
Jordan Wolf wrote on Mon, 14 February 2011 12:35

Michael Lewis wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 06:53

Jordan Wolf wrote on Sun, 13 February 2011 14:32

I want to preface this by saying that I am approaching this from an analog standpoint, so it's not exactly in line with the question, but I figured I could interject some info.

Michael Lewis wrote on Sat, 12 February 2011 14:32


1) male / female vocals

None...and why?




I work with a lot of smaller stages where the drums or guitar cabs are just within 5-10 meters of the vocal mics. I tend to gate almost everything that I can gate just to clean up the mix as much as I can. Without gates, the mix will be a big mess. Vocals mics are usually what I have trouble with without gates as they pick up almost everything on stage when the stage is very small and there's a full band playing on it.

I understand your frustration.  The problem I have noticed with gating vocals is that, while the gate does help when no one's singing, when there is singing, all the mess comes back into the mix.

Maybe the group's mic technique needs to be improved upon or stage volume needs to be better regulated?


I do agree with your point. We do ask the bands to tone their volume down, use smaller drum sets, face the amps away from the mics, singers to kiss their mics.. etc.. but I find that gating vocals do help to make the vocals clearer. I've actually done the same show at the same venue for the past 10 years using all sorts of different systems.

I've tried with and without gate at this particular school hall's stage and there's a big difference especially when I use side chain with fast attack and decay. So far the best result I got is by using a pair of QSC K10 speakers on vocal boost setting and mixing with the Yamaha LS9 with the gates on on almost everything. The school hall is very reverberant, so the gates do help in intelligibility.