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Title: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Michael Hoddy on September 28, 2010, 09:09:01 pm
Does anyone have a source for flyable, permanent install-type stage lighting bar or pipe systems? I have a church install where I need to provide and fly 3 lighting pipe locations for Source Four ellipsoidals with something designed for the purpose that I can mount to proper equipment supports on the structure. I'm not looking for truss. I've seen these before, I just don't know who makes them.

I don't need dimming on them, just a pipe/bar system with mounting points. Each location needs to be around 8 feet in length. Any ideas? Thanks.
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Jonathan Kok on September 28, 2010, 10:47:23 pm
You sure you want to do this?  Hanging a speaker is one thing--it's the only thing that will ever hang from the points you put in, so making it safe isn't so difficult.  Hanging a pipe from a ceiling opens up the doors for someone at some point in the future hanging something else off it, over which you have absolutely no control.
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Duncan McLennan on September 28, 2010, 11:57:33 pm
What do you mean by 'system'? Do you just mean the pipe itself, or a system like ETC makes with the pipe, and then long box above for circuit distro? Or something else?
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Michael Hoddy on September 29, 2010, 08:50:47 am
I'm familiar with the ETC product, but I'm looking for something that's just a lighting pipe or bar with fly-rated structural attachment points- no integrated dimming or circuiting. Pretty simple really. I'm kind of surprised that something obvious hasn't popped up because I've seen this sort of thing in a bunch of church installs by others.

I've seen people and companies build their own with Schedule 40 pipe and assorted hangers, and while I know that Schedule 40 (or 80) pipe is kind of a standard in smaller theaters for this, I am not interested in reinventing the wheel by fabricating something and trying to get a structural engineer to approve it. I'd rather submit a drawing of a pre-existing product that's designed for this.
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Charlie Zureki on September 29, 2010, 08:55:49 am
Michael Hoddy wrote on Tue, 28 September 2010 20:09

Does anyone have a source for flyable, permanent install-type stage lighting bar or pipe systems? I have a church install where I need to provide and fly 3 lighting pipe locations for Source Four ellipsoidals with something designed for the purpose that I can mount to proper equipment supports on the structure. I'm not looking for truss. I've seen these before, I just don't know who makes them.

I don't need dimming on them, just a pipe/bar system with mounting points. Each location needs to be around 8 feet in length. Any ideas? Thanks.



  Hello Michael,

  Hanging a pipe for a few lighting fixtures could be a simple job, or a very time consuming project depending on the heighth and design of the building.

  Many people would use a piece of 2" black pipe. (found at any plumbing or hardware warehouse) Now...how they'd hang it is a bit more complicated based on the structure of the building and the availability to mount it securely.

  Hanging the pipe (properly) from rated wire rope and fittings, or from a some metal brackets is a common method.

  But, again, the pipe's hanging apparatus needs to be mounted securely to a structural beam or batten.

  Find a theatrical rigger with experience.

  Good Luck,
  Hammer

  We've seen a lot of hack hangs jobs, and one of the biggest mistakes is some fool screwing a pipe flange into a wood stud (or just the ceiling/wall)

 DO IT RIGHT....Don't be a Dino!

 
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Michael Hoddy on September 29, 2010, 08:58:18 am
{QUOTE} We've seen a lot of hack hangs jobs, and one of the biggest mistakes is some fool screwing a pipe flange into a wood stud (or just the ceiling/wall)

DO IT RIGHT....Don't be a Dino! [/QUOTE]

This is precisely what I don't want to do. I figure the plumbing store is a bad place for anyone to build rigging systems from.

If there isn't a pre-fab product, I may just have to sub it out to a theatrical rigger who can certify whatever they build. Is there a lighting rigging design-build equivalent to Polar Focus (whom I love)?
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Charlie Zureki on September 29, 2010, 08:58:54 am
Michael Hoddy wrote on Wed, 29 September 2010 07:50

I'm familiar with the ETC product, but I'm looking for something that's just a lighting pipe or bar with fly-rated structural attachment points- no integrated dimming or circuiting. Pretty simple really. I'm kind of surprised that something obvious hasn't popped up because I've seen this sort of thing in a bunch of church installs by others.

I've seen people and companies build their own with Schedule 40 pipe and assorted hangers, and while I know that Schedule 40 (or 80) pipe is kind of a standard in smaller theaters for this, I am not interested in reinventing the wheel by fabricating something and trying to get a structural engineer to approve it. I'd rather submit a drawing of a pre-existing product that's designed for this.



  Michael,

  it's usually not the pipe that's the problem...it's the METHOD of the hang and the PROPER use of RATED hardware.

 Hammer

Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Charlie Zureki on September 29, 2010, 09:04:14 am
Michael Hoddy wrote on Wed, 29 September 2010 07:58

{QUOTE} We've seen a lot of hack hangs jobs, and one of the biggest mistakes is some fool screwing a pipe flange into a wood stud (or just the ceiling/wall)

DO IT RIGHT....Don't be a Dino!


This is precisely what I don't want to do. I figure the plumbing store is a bad place for anyone to build rigging systems from.

If there isn't a pre-fab product, I may just have to sub it out to a theatrical rigger who can certify whatever they build. Is there a lighting rigging design-build equivalent to Polar Focus (whom I love)?[/quote]


 Hello Michael,

 They'll get the pipe from a plumbing store. The rest of the rigging hardware will be from a supplier that specializes in such equipment.


 I think you're missing the point...it's not always about the equipment...it's about HOW it's attached to the building.... and NO ONE can phone that in.....they have to actually be there....ON SITE.
 Hammer
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Chuck Fudge on September 29, 2010, 09:43:36 am
jr clancy
bmi supply
H and H hardware...etc

The pipe and hanging devices are easy, its how you intend to support the structure.  If steel is exposed, pretty easy situation, but if concrete cealing or wood structure then you are looking at some engineering/structural investigation.

Do you want the pipe to be rigid?  different scenerio.

1.5 schedule 40 black pipe is the standard, 2" is not necessary.  Flat steel brackets that sandwich the pipe provide a mounting point for shackle.  Chain or wire rope from there to structure.  you can also just rap the pipe with chain, and then shackle, and support from that point.  Chain must be welded and rated.

If a rigid system, steel brackets from the ceiling down to pipe.  rated u bolts support pipe to brackets.

Hire a theatrical rigging contractor.  if you are in the midwest, I use Chicago Flyhouse for all our projects.

Chuck
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Charlie Zureki on September 29, 2010, 12:13:40 pm
Chuck Fudge wrote on Wed, 29 September 2010 08:43

jr clancy
bmi supply
H and H hardware...etc

The pipe and hanging devices are easy, its how you intend to support the structure.  If steel is exposed, pretty easy situation, but if concrete cealing or wood structure then you are looking at some engineering/structural investigation.

Do you want the pipe to be rigid?  different scenerio.

1.5 schedule 40 black pipe is the standard, 2" is not necessary.  Flat steel brackets that sandwich the pipe provide a mounting point for shackle.  Chain or wire rope from there to structure.  you can also just rap the pipe with chain, and then shackle, and support from that point.  Chain must be welded and rated.

If a rigid system, steel brackets from the ceiling down to pipe.  rated u bolts support pipe to brackets.

Hire a theatrical rigging contractor.  if you are in the midwest, I use Chicago Flyhouse for all our projects.

Chuck


Hello Chuck,

 Some good advice... but,..
 Two inch pipe is also a standard throughout many Theatres in the U.S.  Whether he'd need or want 2" pipe is another story....it does reduce the amount of bend as compared to a 1.5" pipe.

 And, forged chain is better than welded links.

  Hammer
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Adam Kane on September 29, 2010, 12:46:47 pm
Charlie Zureki wrote on Wed, 29 September 2010 09:04



 I think you're missing the point...it's not always about the equipment...it's about HOW it's attached to the building.... and NO ONE can phone that in.....they have to actually be there....ON SITE.
 Hammer



Exactly. I've seen some pretty crappy work with steel cable, forged eyebolts, unistrut, shackles, and grade-80 chain...all of which are perfectly fine to use when implemented within the scope of their intented purpose and load ratings.

Even if you purchase some sort of pre-fab and pre-approved piece of lighting "piping system" (ETC or similar) it still needs to be fastened to the structure correctly or it doesn't matter what stickers are on it.
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Chuck Fudge on October 08, 2010, 10:42:37 pm
forged..not welded...you're right.  anyway....its all got to be rated.  Thats why I hire out, no room for mistakes.

Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Charlie Zureki on October 09, 2010, 12:21:58 pm
Chuck Fudge wrote on Fri, 08 October 2010 21:42

forged..not welded...you're right.  anyway....its all got to be rated.  Thats why I hire out, no room for mistakes.





 Hello Chuck et al..,

 Yes, if there's no rating spec available for a piece of hardware, then, definitely do NOT use the hardware.

 But, the idea or term "rated" can be misconstrued or ignored too.

Even the wire rope and fittings sold at the local "H-Depot" or "Loads" has a "rating". Usually right on the spool or package.

Remember, it's not always whether something is "rated", but, whether it is used with a proper safety margin.

 Cheers,
 Hammer
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Chuck Fudge on October 19, 2010, 11:55:33 am
only shop the good stuff...I do hang bird feeders at home with the home depot stuff.
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Marlow Wilson on November 06, 2010, 06:34:22 pm
Chuck Fudge wrote on Wed, 29 September 2010 09:43


bmi supply



Very handy link.... I've been browsing their catalogue for 5 minutes and already found a whole bunch of stuff I've been looking for.

Thanks!
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Matthew Haber on November 14, 2010, 12:37:08 am
I think this thread is probably a good example of, "If you have to ask, it is time to hire a theatre rigger." This sort of job is pretty par-for-the-course and any decent rigger who has done installs should easily be able to handle it. I'm sure someone can point the OP towards a reputable local theatre rigger.
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: Tim Padrick on November 27, 2010, 02:17:00 am
If I'm not mistaken, 1.5" schedule 40 has an OD of 2", so you guys are likely talking about the same pipe.
Title: Re: install lighting pipe/bar systems
Post by: drewgandy on November 28, 2010, 05:00:54 pm
Tim Padrick wrote on Sat, 27 November 2010 01:17

If I'm not mistaken, 1.5" schedule 40 has an OD of 2", so you guys are likely talking about the same pipe.


I think "theater pipe" is supposed to be 1.9" OD.  2" would be the rounded up version.  ?

drew