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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => LAB Lounge FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: jack smith on October 06, 2009, 12:30:30 pm

Title: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 06, 2009, 12:30:30 pm
As some of you know, i'm after some new subs, and have a few ideas, but out of the EV QRX-218 and the JBL SRX-728, which one do you guys think is the best for music like this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3QwPYFWiKQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3QwPYFWiKQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XdXN_Av9jY&feature=relat ed " ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XdXN_Av9jY&feature=rela ted

Thats the kind of music I play at allk my parties. Its got seriously unbelievable amounts of tuneful sub bass around 35-45hz that kills subs. I got a few ideas about subs and whether or not they'd be good for me, but if I was to go for reflex subs, and went for 1 of the 2 mentioned above, which one do you guys think would be the best for this kind of music?

I was thinking about JBL SRX-728 subs, but just saw the EV QRX-218 subs and they look nice, and look liek they go down pretty low.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Peter Etheredge on October 06, 2009, 12:33:39 pm
jack smith wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 11:30

As some of you know, i'm after some new subs, and have a few ideas, but out of the EV QRX-218 and the JBL SRX-728, which one do you guys think is the best for music like this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3QwPYFWiKQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3QwPYFWiKQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XdXN_Av9jY&feature=relat ed]  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XdXN_Av9jY&feature=relat ed "  ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XdXN_Av9jY&feature=rela ted

Thats the kind of music I play at allk my parties. Its got seriously unbelievable amounts of tuneful sub bass around 35-45hz that kills subs. I got a few ideas about subs and whether or not they'd be good for me, but if I was to go for reflex subs, and went for 1 of the 2 mentioned above, which one do you guys think would be the best for this kind of music?

I was thinking about JBL SRX-728 subs, but just saw the EV QRX-218 subs and they look nice, and look liek they go down pretty low.


The general consensus seems to be that the SRX subs are the way to go, although I'd recommend getting a pair (or pair per side) of the SRX 718s, as you'll have the same output in a much easier to move package for only a hundred bucks or so more.

Apparently the QRX subs just aren't on the same level as their matching tops.

What are your tops btw?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 06, 2009, 12:45:09 pm
Well I haventn't got any yet but I was thinking about either a pair of EV Tour X series TX-1152 because I heard them a couple of weeks ago and thought they seemed to have a nice flat sound to them. I prefered the JBL MRX-515 that I tried the week before, but they're not as loud as the TX-1152 cabs. I need something that would keep up with a pair of either the EV QRX-218 or JBL SRX-728 subs. To keep up with the subs, I was gonna buy 4 tops, 2 to go on each sub.

So do the SRX-728's sound better or is it that they go deeper?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 06, 2009, 12:49:34 pm
When shopping for woofers it is best to take a two pronged approach.
Yes you want glorious boom boom from the right cabinet in the right way.  But the only way to achieve serious ooomph is to adequately power the boxes you lust for.

Shop for woofers and amps.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 06, 2009, 12:53:31 pm
If I was going to go for the SRX-728 subs i'd power them with a Lab Gruppen Lab4000 amp which gives them 2,100 watts per channel into 4 ohms. If I was gonna go with the QRX-218 subs, i'd power them with a QSC RMX-5050 which gives them 1,600 watts per channel into 4 ohms.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 06, 2009, 01:07:54 pm
Not enough jack.

728s perk up at 3kw.

2kw is asking for heat.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 06, 2009, 01:37:25 pm
I'm sorry, this makes absolutely no sense to me.

The Lab Gruppen 2100 w amp will blow the nuts off of a bridged xti 4000.

The drivers are rated at 800w rms.  400w rms is probably a safe bet with 6-9db of headroom (which the LG would provide - 30ms burst range).

The difference between 3000w and 2000w is 1.5 db MAX.


Edit - re-read and this sounded rude, wasn't meant to be.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 06, 2009, 01:42:38 pm
Adam Schaible wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 12:37

I'm sorry, this makes absolutely no sense to me.

The Lab Gruppen 2100 w amp will blow the nuts off of a bridged xti 4000.

The drivers are rated at 800w rms.  400w rms is probably a safe bet with 6-9db of headroom (which the LG would provide - 30ms burst range).

The difference between 3000w and 2000w is 1.5 db MAX.


Edit - re-read and this sounded rude, wasn't meant to be.


Adam, don't assume I was just talking about an xti4k.
I've been quite intimate with the 728s for about 3 years now (well, as intimate as someone can be with woofers...), and I've pushed them with lots of amps.

They sound better with more than 3kw.
Period.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Daniel Nickleski on October 06, 2009, 01:43:48 pm
The QRX's are some of the smoother subs I have worked with when they have real power behind them (Crest Pro9200's). If you don't have real power you need to look for another sub.

Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 06, 2009, 01:48:25 pm
What I'm getting at is more than 3kw what?  Peak, RMS?

It's a weird thing to say - 3kw RMS would be way over the peak rating of the cab assuming a 6db crest factor (which it's probably closer to 10db on average).

The thermal rating on the drivers is 800w based on a 6db crest (if memory serves me correctly).
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 06, 2009, 01:50:25 pm
Adam Schaible wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 12:48

What I'm getting at is more than 3kw what?  Peak, RMS?

It's a weird thing to say - 3kw RMS would be way over the peak rating of the cab assuming a 6db crest factor (which it's probably closer to 10db on average).

The thermal rating on the drivers is 800w based on a 6db crest (if memory serves me correctly).


SRX728 is rated 1600/3200/6400.
SRX718 is rated 800/1600/3200.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 06, 2009, 01:52:32 pm
Right, so the thermal is 800w per driver
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 06, 2009, 02:50:12 pm
Adam Schaible wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 12:52

Right, so the thermal is 800w per driver


Yup, and *2 would equal 1600w thermal.

JBL offers an amp in their VRX918P.
The amp peaks at 1500w.
The 918 is a single 2268H (same as the 718/728).
So if we doubled a 918 cabinet it would be a 728 cabinet give or take a few cabinet tuning features.
And if we doubled the 918 power it would be 3kw peak.
I do 3200 peak give or take.
2000w peak just didn't have the stopping power, left me dull, lifeless, in need of more quiet in-between my boom.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Vinny D'Agostino on October 06, 2009, 03:00:49 pm
I have been very pleased with my QRX218s subs, I have them powered with a QSC RMX4050HD run in dual mono (1400w ea. sub @ 4ohms).
They get more then loud and low enough for the venues I work in.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 06, 2009, 03:04:22 pm
2Kw is serious power.  I don't disbelieve the results you have had, but I would be very surprised if they were strictly voltage based.

I'm using the I-Tech 5000Hd's on them and they really move air.  They peak at 3200w or so burst, rated at 2500w.  When I'm monitoring the amps input/output, I rarely see it get close to -3db.  At -3db, the output is intense.  According to the specs of the amp, this is just 1250w.

I can set the I-Tech to not clip the output stage and drive it harder and harder.  I'll give that a shot and see if it keeps getting louder until it limits (100v).  I've never really worried about it before - but it might be worth checking out.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Dave Rickard on October 06, 2009, 03:10:49 pm
How many are you going to use?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Brian Wynn on October 06, 2009, 03:29:07 pm
I have owned both SRX and Currently QRX.  If your playing that "music" that I heard on the video then I would go with the LAB subs they go low and are very loud.  The tuning of the LAB box will help you get into that lower 808 stuff.  Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 06, 2009, 04:22:32 pm
To Tom Reid,

What do you mean 2k is asking for heat? I've been told by people on this very forum (cant remember who) that 2k each sub is about right. Any more than that and its too much power for the seriously bass heavy music i'll be playing through them. I always set system gain structure by using a pink noise test tone and making sure all equipment clips at the same level, then back off on the 1st piece of equipment to 0db on the mixer, and then not exceed that level all night. Surely 3k into an SRX-728 while playing the kind of music i'll be playing is way too much power.

If I set the gain structure, then keep the level at or below  all night, but...I put 3000k through each sub, it'll blow them to bits wouldnt it?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 06, 2009, 04:34:53 pm
I don't think 3k peak is too much - 3k RMS is, but you really can't run 3k RMS with any production amp outside an ITech 12000HD and you need electricity in the grid to support it.

The point I'm making is that 3k watts is only 1.5 db more than 2k watts.  To get 3k watts from a 3k amp is basically on the edge of clipping, so you're probably getting 1500-2k watts from a 3kw amp.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 06, 2009, 05:33:37 pm
Adam Schaible wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:34

I don't think 3k peak is too much - 3k RMS is, but you really can't run 3k RMS with any production amp outside an ITech 12000HD and you need electricity in the grid to support it.

The point I'm making is that 3k watts is only 1.5 db more than 2k watts.  To get 3k watts from a 3k amp is basically on the edge of clipping, so you're probably getting 1500-2k watts from a 3kw amp.


Subsequently IF using a 2k amp you're getting 750-1.5k watts.
Now do ya see my point?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Scott Smith on October 06, 2009, 05:34:33 pm
Don't forget, there is "old iron" 3kw, then there is switching "burst" power 3kw.  I don't assume that both amps will do the same job or sound the same.  It is however, better to have more either way, than not enough.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on October 06, 2009, 05:37:35 pm
I posted my main response on DJ chat...

I went SRX718s (x4) instead of SRX728s (x2). I started out with an XTi6000 on the subs, very good amp for the price.  I was offered an IT8000 at a killer price that I couldn't pass up.

I test drove both the QRX218 & SRX728s.  Both are excellent choices.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 06, 2009, 05:49:40 pm
That's not the same as saying "they really come alive at 3kw".

I'd be very surprised if they ever see more than 100v without clipping.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 06, 2009, 05:55:37 pm
jack smith wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:22

To Tom Reid,

What do you mean 2k is asking for heat? I've been told by people on this very forum (cant remember who) that 2k each sub is about right. Any more than that and its too much power for the seriously bass heavy music i'll be playing through them. I always set system gain structure by using a pink noise test tone and making sure all equipment clips at the same level, then back off on the 1st piece of equipment to 0db on the mixer, and then not exceed that level all night. Surely 3k into an SRX-728 while playing the kind of music i'll be playing is way too much power.

If I set the gain structure, then keep the level at or below  all night, but...I put 3000k through each sub, it'll blow them to bits wouldnt it?


SRX728 are rated 1600/3200/6400.
I've ran some synth heavy bands getting into clip lights occasionally without woofer damage.
ymmv.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 06, 2009, 06:10:37 pm
Adam Schaible wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:49

That's not the same as saying "they really come alive at 3kw".

I'd be very surprised if they ever see more than 100v without clipping.


I think you need to put away the slide rule and do some listening test.

At first you say the LG will blow away the bridged xti.
The LG puts out 2000w vs. 3200w on the xti.
Yes 1.5db difference is difference.

Then you ask RMS, or peak.
If ya knew the parameters of the amps (which obviously you did) you wouldn't even need to ask.

Then you talk about 800w on a driver.  Were talking about a 2 driver cabinet so it's 1600w per cab unless you discrete the loudspeaker.

Now we're measuring heater voltage before clips.

How many different amp/728 configs have you ran in the past year?

I spend minimum three days a week in front of these cabs with all types of input.  They work best when an amplifier can give them at least 3000w of power.  Like all JBL they work the best when the amplifier rating is within the middle power rating.

My stuff sounds good.  I was offering advice to jack to make sure his stuff sounded good.  
I have no issue with you, but you seem to be stuck on a paper trail and not real life experience.

I've beaten this horse enough.

Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 06, 2009, 06:46:01 pm
No paper trail.

I have a pair of 728's.

I have had a pair of XTi 4000's bridged 1 per sub.

I have I-Tech HD's.

The I-Tech's are rated at less power than the XTi's, but sound a ton better at -6db than the XTi's did at clip.

I do agree, the 728 needs a few hundred watts to get loud, but if you were to measure how much voltage your speakers are getting when it sounds good, I think you'd be surprised.  There's an insignificant difference between 2000w and 3000w especially when you think about how much additional heating (and thus power compression) that extra power adds.

I've really never seen a driver that benefits much from over 250w RMS.  The power demands of increasing volume force the cab to dissipate more heat, etc.

My observations/measurements lend me to believe that huge power handling numbers are insulators for the companies warranty as well as letting them pad their spec sheet peak numbers.

Just out of curiosity - have you ever used yours with any high quality 2kw amps?  Lab Gruppen, ITech, etc.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Caleb Dick on October 06, 2009, 09:08:35 pm
The difference between small and large amps, as well as cheaper vs higher quality, isn't the extra dB or two.  It's for reproducing the transients accurately, and likely other good things.  

Headroom is your friend, especially with subs.

Caleb
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 06, 2009, 10:21:14 pm
Differential drive was made for guys who thermalled too much stuff in the 80's.  

A single loudspeaker that can take a 3200w peak is built pretty rugged.  Rugged things don't respond as well as fragile bits and need a little more encourgement to get moving.

I like an Itech 8k on the woofers.
A bridged xs1200 will clip a breaker if it clips too many times.
I have A/B Lab Grup with other amps.
I have not run the on 728s.

I know what the hear and feel when a loudspeaker gets into power compression and there ain't no more and before it starts to smell ...  I don't get to that point.  
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Bob Leonard on October 06, 2009, 10:26:48 pm
Caleb Dick wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 21:08

The difference between small and large amps, as well as cheaper vs higher quality, isn't the extra dB or two.  It's for reproducing the transients accurately, and likely other good things.  

Headroom is your friend, especially with subs.

Caleb


I agree to the above statement. The OP asked what would be the best sub for his type music. My answer would be the sub you LISTEN to that's powered properly and sounds the best. Powered properly is 2x long term power rating, or for the SRX 728 that would be the 3000 watts already mentioned in this thread. Will the OP ever use all of that power? Probably not continuously, but he'll need the HEAD ROOM.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Jim Smith on October 06, 2009, 10:44:18 pm
Tom Reid wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 21:21


I have A/B Lab Grup with other amps.
I have not run the on 728s.

I know what the hear and feel when a loudspeaker gets into power compression and there ain't no more and before it starts to smell ...  I don't get to that point.  


Wow......Matt Viv couldn't have said that any better.  Laughing
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 06, 2009, 11:08:14 pm
Somewhat glancing over all the discussion about power and who's got more watts, I give a huge +1 for a pair of SRX728s powered with a single IT8000. You will not be disappointed. Utilize the clip limiter and RMS power limiter and they'll never blow up.

Oh, and Itechs laugh at the XTis; hence, I sold all mine. You could use ten XTi4000s bridged and it still wouldn't sound as good as the single IT8000 I recommended.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 06, 2009, 11:15:31 pm
Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:08

Somewhat glancing over all the discussion about power and who's got more watts, I give a huge +1 for a pair of SRX728s powered with a single IT8000. You will not be disappointed. Utilize the clip limiter and RMS power limiter and they'll never blow up.

Oh, and Itechs laugh at the XTis; hence, I sold all mine. You could use ten XTi4000s bridged and it still wouldn't sound as good as the single IT8000 I recommended.


I know I know ...
It's in the budget.
I'm getting there, I pick up the new trailer this week.

That said, the xti6000 is a different beastie.
I like it on mids (SRX725).
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 06, 2009, 11:17:41 pm
Tom Reid wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 23:15

Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:08

Somewhat glancing over all the discussion about power and who's got more watts, I give a huge +1 for a pair of SRX728s powered with a single IT8000. You will not be disappointed. Utilize the clip limiter and RMS power limiter and they'll never blow up.

Oh, and Itechs laugh at the XTis; hence, I sold all mine. You could use ten XTi4000s bridged and it still wouldn't sound as good as the single IT8000 I recommended.


I know I know ...
It's in the budget.
I'm getting there, I pick up the new trailer this week.

That said, the xti6000 is a different beastie.
I like it on mids (SRX725).



Xti6000 still sucks because it still has useless limiters and no Ethernet.

There are IT8000s everywhere for $1750 used and I've been buying piles of IT4000s for $1200 each or so.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 06, 2009, 11:23:19 pm
Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:17

Tom Reid wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 23:15

Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:08

Somewhat glancing over all the discussion about power and who's got more watts, I give a huge +1 for a pair of SRX728s powered with a single IT8000. You will not be disappointed. Utilize the clip limiter and RMS power limiter and they'll never blow up.

Oh, and Itechs laugh at the XTis; hence, I sold all mine. You could use ten XTi4000s bridged and it still wouldn't sound as good as the single IT8000 I recommended.


I know I know ...
It's in the budget.
I'm getting there, I pick up the new trailer this week.

That said, the xti6000 is a different beastie.
I like it on mids (SRX725).



Xti6000 still sucks because it still has useless limiters and no Ethernet.

There are IT8000s everywhere for $1750 used and I've been buying piles of IT4000s for $1200 each or so.


Thanks, I know my amps suck.
But they don't suck that bad.
My ROI hasn't sucked yet ...
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 06, 2009, 11:51:19 pm
Tom Reid wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 23:23

Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:17

Tom Reid wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 23:15

Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:08

Somewhat glancing over all the discussion about power and who's got more watts, I give a huge +1 for a pair of SRX728s powered with a single IT8000. You will not be disappointed. Utilize the clip limiter and RMS power limiter and they'll never blow up.

Oh, and Itechs laugh at the XTis; hence, I sold all mine. You could use ten XTi4000s bridged and it still wouldn't sound as good as the single IT8000 I recommended.


I know I know ...
It's in the budget.
I'm getting there, I pick up the new trailer this week.

That said, the xti6000 is a different beastie.
I like it on mids (SRX725).



Xti6000 still sucks because it still has useless limiters and no Ethernet.

There are IT8000s everywhere for $1750 used and I've been buying piles of IT4000s for $1200 each or so.


Thanks, I know my amps suck.
But they don't suck that bad.
My ROI hasn't sucked yet ...



No insult intended Tom. The amps are working great for you, and I'm sure you bought them at the right price, and if you and your clients are happy then all is good, right? These days, any ROI you can get out of gear is worth it. You're probably doing better in that respect than me Confused
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Bob Kenton on October 07, 2009, 01:07:34 am
I fed a pair of 718's a bridged 3402 for several years with no issues. I know its not the best sub amp, not my point but just to point out that the single driver subs worked great on 1500+ watts a box.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 05:34:17 am
So, just explain to me (because i'm not that knowledgable) if i'll be ok. Are you guys saying that as long as I set the gain structure to ensure all equipment in the cahin clips at the same level, even though i'm playing music with the more bass than any other music style in the world (oldskool is more bass heavy than any other style i've ever heard) and also playing the uk hardcore which is highly compressed, I can put 3k through the SRX-728 sub as long as I dont run the signal past 0db, which means that in effect, I won't be pushing any distortion to the subs, only massive amounts of clean power. Am I right guys? Its when you try and make up the volume by pushing the system past the 0db light (after setting gain structure) that you're then putting harmonic distortion through the speakers. Am I right?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 07, 2009, 09:46:15 am
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 05:34

So, just explain to me (because i'm not that knowledgable) if i'll be ok. Are you guys saying that as long as I set the gain structure to ensure all equipment in the cahin clips at the same level, even though i'm playing music with the more bass than any other music style in the world (oldskool is more bass heavy than any other style i've ever heard) and also playing the uk hardcore which is highly compressed, I can put 3k through the SRX-728 sub as long as I dont run the signal past 0db, which means that in effect, I won't be pushing any distortion to the subs, only massive amounts of clean power. Am I right guys? Its when you try and make up the volume by pushing the system past the 0db light (after setting gain structure) that you're then putting harmonic distortion through the speakers. Am I right?


Yeah, that sounds pretty much correct, but an easier rule of thumb (if the amp is properly sized, in your case, 3000 watts per dual 18) is that if you see red, turn it down.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Paul O'Brien on October 07, 2009, 10:29:30 am
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 05:34

Are you guys saying that as long as I set the gain structure to ensure all equipment in the cahin clips at the same level, even though i'm playing music with the more bass than any other music style in the world (oldskool is more bass heavy than any other style i've ever heard) and also playing the uk hardcore which is highly compressed, I can put 3k through the SRX-728 sub as long as I dont run the signal past 0db,


Maybe. The big unknown here is the source material. The 6400w rating on these subs assumes the source material has at least 6db dynamic range or crest factor. Sine waves and synth tones are steady state signals(0db dynamic range) so if you push more than 1600w into a cab with that kind of signal you will exceed the long term thermal capacity of the drivers which will eventually lead to an expensive repair bill.

Bottom line is buy a big enough amp that you will never push all the way to clipping with any type input, and limit it to a level appropriate for the style of music being played at any particular event.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Dave Rickard on October 07, 2009, 10:38:20 am
jack smith wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:45

 I need something that would keep up with a pair of either the EV QRX-218 or JBL SRX-728 subs. To keep up with the subs, I was gonna buy 4 tops, 2 to go on each sub.

After reading through this entire thread so far, I'm really apprehensive that this will work very well for you.  It seems like you've left out key details, or maybe you put them in a different thread.

I don't know your experience level, but you seem rather new at this. If I'm wrong, please accept my apology.  No offense intended.

Here are my thoughts--

4 tops to 2 subs seems "upside down" for sub-heavy music.  I'd be more comfortable if you'd said 4 subs and 2 tops.

You haven't described the situation you're going to be placing this system in.  Indoor/Outdoor?  Much more firepower is needed outdoors than indoors.
20 people? 100? 200? 500? 1,000?  
If indoor, how many square feet is the room and how high are the ceilings?  Living room? Conference room? Gymnasium? Arena?

Serious amp power, whether correct or not, will only make things die faster if not done perfectly.  When the party gets rockin' I predict you'll feel a lack of sub-bass, then against your better judgement you'll turn them up "just this once".  "Game over" quickly.  (Unless you're in a small room, in which case you'll be smiling all night).

You're better off with more sub cabinets and less power, than you are with fewer cabinets and more power.  Looks more impressive too, if you're into that sort of thing.

If you can't afford to get more cabinets, you can't afford to blow your only pair either.  

If you can't afford either of those options, you don't have enough money to do the gigs you want to do.

There's my free advice on the internet.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 10:58:39 am
Silas Pradetto wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 08:46

jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 05:34

So, just explain to me (because i'm not that knowledgable) if i'll be ok. Are you guys saying that as long as I set the gain structure to ensure all equipment in the cahin clips at the same level, even though i'm playing music with the more bass than any other music style in the world (oldskool is more bass heavy than any other style i've ever heard) and also playing the uk hardcore which is highly compressed, I can put 3k through the SRX-728 sub as long as I dont run the signal past 0db, which means that in effect, I won't be pushing any distortion to the subs, only massive amounts of clean power. Am I right guys? Its when you try and make up the volume by pushing the system past the 0db light (after setting gain structure) that you're then putting harmonic distortion through the speakers. Am I right?


Yeah, that sounds pretty much correct, but an easier rule of thumb (if the amp is properly sized, in your case, 3000 watts per dual 18) is that if you see red, turn it down.



No, IF and only IF 3,000 watts is ok to put through the SRX728 with the music I play, i'd make sure the level for the whole system doesn't exceed 0db at all.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 11:03:30 am
Paul O'Brien wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 09:29

jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 05:34

Are you guys saying that as long as I set the gain structure to ensure all equipment in the cahin clips at the same level, even though i'm playing music with the more bass than any other music style in the world (oldskool is more bass heavy than any other style i've ever heard) and also playing the uk hardcore which is highly compressed, I can put 3k through the SRX-728 sub as long as I dont run the signal past 0db,


Maybe. The big unknown here is the source material. The 6400w rating on these subs assumes the source material has at least 6db dynamic range or crest factor. Sine waves and synth tones are steady state signals(0db dynamic range) so if you push more than 1600w into a cab with that kind of signal you will exceed the long term thermal capacity of the drivers which will eventually lead to an expensive repair bill.

Bottom line is buy a big enough amp that you will never push all the way to clipping with any type input, and limit it to a level appropriate for the style of music being played at any particular event.


So you're saying that if I set the gain structure and dont go above 0db on the mixer, which will enable the rest of the system to stay at 0db maximum, i'll be ok putting only putting 1,600 watts into each sub? When I use to play the same oldskool hardcore on my mate's old MP418 subs, putting 750 watts rms through each and running upto the red, and backing off to the last yellow light, and running it that way all night? I thought once gain structure has been set, going past 0db on vu meters is putting hot level into your speakers. Harmonic distortion so to speak.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 11:09:00 am
Dave Rickard wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 09:38

jack smith wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:45

 I need something that would keep up with a pair of either the EV QRX-218 or JBL SRX-728 subs. To keep up with the subs, I was gonna buy 4 tops, 2 to go on each sub.

After reading through this entire thread so far, I'm really apprehensive that this will work very well for you.  It seems like you've left out key details, or maybe you put them in a different thread.

I don't know your experience level, but you seem rather new at this. If I'm wrong, please accept my apology.  No offense intended.

Here are my thoughts--

4 tops to 2 subs seems "upside down" for sub-heavy music.  I'd be more comfortable if you'd said 4 subs and 2 tops.

You haven't described the situation you're going to be placing this system in.  Indoor/Outdoor?  Much more firepower is needed outdoors than indoors.
20 people? 100? 200? 500? 1,000?  
If indoor, how many square feet is the room and how high are the ceilings?  Living room? Conference room? Gymnasium? Arena?

Serious amp power, whether correct or not, will only make things die faster if not done perfectly.  When the party gets rockin' I predict you'll feel a lack of sub-bass, then against your better judgement you'll turn them up "just this once".  "Game over" quickly.  (Unless you're in a small room, in which case you'll be smiling all night).

You're better off with more sub cabinets and less power, than you are with fewer cabinets and more power.  Looks more impressive too, if you're into that sort of thing.

If you can't afford to get more cabinets, you can't afford to blow your only pair either.  

If you can't afford either of those options, you don't have enough money to do the gigs you want to do.

There's my free advice on the internet.


They'll be used in a venue thats 45ft x 30 ft roughly. I was thinking of 4 tops and 2 subs because I though 4 EV TX-1152 mid highs would be about equal output to s JBL SRX-728 subs. Originally I was thinking 2 EV TX-2152 dual 15" + horn mid/high cabs on top of the SRX-728 subs but then though that it'd be easier to move about 4 single 15" + horn cabs.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 11:24:51 am
I know how to sort this issue out. My mate's old JBL MP418 subs were loaded with 2241 18" drivers, and were rated at 600 watts rms continuous. We put 750 through each one and after setting gain structure, so all equipment clips at the same level, I increased the line level right upto the red lights, then backed off so it stayed on the last yellow light at the maximum all night (6 hours continuous), which amounted to 750 watts rms plus another 4db in line level boost. They handled it all night long without a problem. Surely because that means in theory, with 6db being a doubling of power, and me putting 4db extra though them, it equates to me having put just over 1,000 watts through each doesn't it. If 6db is a doubling, 3db is quarter more power. Am I right? ish?

So in theory, if the 2241 drivers can handle 1,000 watts all night long, the SRX-728's subs with their double drivers should be able to handle 2,400 watts each SRX-728 shouldn't they? As long as I this time, dont go above 0db on the dj mixer?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 07, 2009, 11:35:00 am
You just don't seem to get it.

Your 4db inline thinger, whatever the hell it is does not increase the power the amplifier can provide.  It simply increases the signal going INTO the amplifier by 4db.  Your amp could still only provide the power it's rated for.

If you run an 800w sine wave through the driver (or synth tone, whatever - something with a very low crest factor) you are at your thermal limit.  If you have a kick drum that is quiet most of the time but really loud some times, you can probably push near the peak rating all night long.  There is no hard and fast rule.  None, nada - you keep asking for one and there isn't.

6db is 4x power
3db is 2x power

This conversation is pretty much pointless anyway.  Put a pair of 728's in your room with a nice amp and you will see.  Put them on a wall next to each other almost touching.  They will have plenty of output without pushing it.  If not, buy another pair of cabs and amps.

I'd get some I-Tech's if I was you.  You can set the limiters (thermal, RMS, and peak) so that you can pretty much make a bullet proof system.  IMO it's best to sacrifice 3db and set your limiters at like 800/1600/3200 for a 728.  This limiting structure can be obtained (and power output) with an I-Tech HD 5000 but would be better with an I-Tech 8000 or 9000HD.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 11:40:56 am
I didnt mean that because I was pushing the system an extra 4db that it was giving my speakers more power. I meant it was giving my speakers the power that the amp is rated and extra voltage due to me increasing the line level going in. Anyway, i';=ll sort it out. We didnt blow my mates old MP418 subs so I wont blow the SRX728 subs. I wont allow the system to run into the red lights or even past the 0db level, so I should be fine.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 07, 2009, 11:45:31 am
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:40

I didnt mean that because I was pushing the system an extra 4db that it was giving my speakers more power. I meant it was giving my speakers the power that the amp is rated and extra voltage due to me increasing the line level going in.


That's what I'm saying, the amp won't make more max voltage.  If your amp is rated at 750w, you can't increase the line level 4db and expect it to make more than 750w.  Now, your amp will run 4db higher, but your celing is still 750w.


Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 11:57:26 am
So how come the volume goes up in level when I push the line level up past 0db? Is that hamronic distortion? Is that why although the spl goes up, the speaker's sound quality starts to suffer more and more, the higher you go up? Upto 0db the sound is clean, but past 0db its get louder but less defined.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 07, 2009, 12:02:42 pm
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:58

Silas Pradetto wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 08:46

jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 05:34

So, just explain to me (because i'm not that knowledgable) if i'll be ok. Are you guys saying that as long as I set the gain structure to ensure all equipment in the cahin clips at the same level, even though i'm playing music with the more bass than any other music style in the world (oldskool is more bass heavy than any other style i've ever heard) and also playing the uk hardcore which is highly compressed, I can put 3k through the SRX-728 sub as long as I dont run the signal past 0db, which means that in effect, I won't be pushing any distortion to the subs, only massive amounts of clean power. Am I right guys? Its when you try and make up the volume by pushing the system past the 0db light (after setting gain structure) that you're then putting harmonic distortion through the speakers. Am I right?


Yeah, that sounds pretty much correct, but an easier rule of thumb (if the amp is properly sized, in your case, 3000 watts per dual 18) is that if you see red, turn it down.



No, IF and only IF 3,000 watts is ok to put through the SRX728 with the music I play, i'd make sure the level for the whole system doesn't exceed 0db at all.


"0dB" is a relative unit and without an absolute reference it is meaningless.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Bryan Bartone on October 07, 2009, 12:06:39 pm
Overloading the amp's input stage?  

Amps have a sensitivity rating which determines how much input it requires for maximum output.  The gain controls an the amp are there to allow you to match the output level of the source, say your speaker management system, to the amp's sensitivity level.  The amps input stage can often take much more input level before clipping, however, you are NOT getting any more output.  I would assume that the unused input voltage is going to be dissipated as heat.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 07, 2009, 12:07:03 pm
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:57

So how come the volume goes up in level when I push the line level up past 0db? Is that hamronic distortion? Is that why although the spl goes up, the speaker's sound quality starts to suffer more and more, the higher you go up? Upto 0db the sound is clean, but past 0db its get louder but less defined.



As silas has said, 0db is pretty meaningless.  When you add 4db in the signal chain (anywhere) the level will go up.  Your RMS level with a 750w amp is probably somewhere around 75w.  When you add that you're probably close to 150-175w RMS.  Of course, this increases your SPL by 4db - but you didn't actually get more out of your amp, you're just running more signal into it.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 12:12:17 pm
So thats saying that I could put 3,000 watts through it as long as I dont run it into the red lights. But people here have said that running 3,000 watts through it is way too much for the music style I play. Its all confusing. I guess 1 way to back up the 3,000 watts idea is rememberign that I use to put 750 watts through my mates MP418 subs and add mor elevel by pushing up the level to just below the red light but not touching it, effectively ginvg the subs another 3 db in harmonic distortion.

Anyway, I wont you guys any more. The reason why I get confused is because some people tell me 1 thing, others tell me another, and also tech guys who run big hire companies here in the uk tell me yet another thing, and say they know because they're professional sound technicians who work alongside big acts when doing the sound for big festivals. Maybe all it boils down to is everyone has their own idea, or maybe its just that some people have learnt inaccurately and now think their way.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 12:15:23 pm
Adam Schaible wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 11:07

jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:57

So how come the volume goes up in level when I push the line level up past 0db? Is that hamronic distortion? Is that why although the spl goes up, the speaker's sound quality starts to suffer more and more, the higher you go up? Upto 0db the sound is clean, but past 0db its get louder but less defined.



As silas has said, 0db is pretty meaningless.  When you add 4db in the signal chain (anywhere) the level will go up.  Your RMS level with a 750w amp is probably somewhere around 75w.  When you add that you're probably close to 150-175w RMS.  Of course, this increases your SPL by 4db - but you didn't actually get more out of your amp, you're just running more signal into it.


Thats exactly what I was trying to say.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Dave Rickard on October 07, 2009, 12:23:40 pm
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 09:09

They'll be used in a venue thats 45ft x 30 ft roughly. I was thinking of 4 tops and 2 subs because I though 4 EV TX-1152 mid highs would be about equal output to s JBL SRX-728 subs. Originally I was thinking 2 EV TX-2152 dual 15" + horn mid/high cabs on top of the SRX-728 subs but then though that it'd be easier to move about 4 single 15" + horn cabs.

Still seems top heavy to me, but if you're happy, I'm happy.  You'll only know after you try it out.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 12:27:51 pm
If I need more bass then i'll buy another SRX-728 and run it the same way as i'm running the other 2, mono bridged amp into it. I think 3 SRX-728 will be pretty cool in that small venue. Next year I might make sure I got 4 SRX728 subs. I always run the system as loud as I can without crucifying it, so 4 SRX-728 should sound nice.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on October 07, 2009, 12:30:59 pm
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 11:27

I think 3 SRX-728 will be pretty cool in that small venue.

I think two 728s will be plenty for the < 2000 sqft venue you are talking about.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Dave Rickard on October 07, 2009, 12:32:09 pm
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:27

If I need more bass then i'll buy another SRX-728 and run it the same way as i'm running the other 2, mono bridged amp into it. I think 3 SRX-728 will be pretty cool in that small venue. Next year I might make sure I got 4 SRX728 subs. I always run the system as loud as I can without crucifying it, so 4 SRX-728 should sound nice.

Can you rent something similar before purchasing?  If so, I'd do that just to learn what you really need.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on October 07, 2009, 12:33:02 pm
Jack, you need to go here http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/tag/audio+basics for about six months then you may have a basic understanding of gain structure.

After you have a basic understanding of gain structure then maybe you will be able to make a better educated decision as to what amp and speaker you want to buy.

Now if you really want to buy SRX728s and you really want to push them with 3000 watts per box for EDM then go for it.  It may work just fine for you are you may go broke reconing you boxes.

When I provide for EDM events I always set my limiters for the RMS (CONTINUOUS) rating of the speakers.  NOT THE PROGRAM OR PEAK RATING!!!!!  They get plenty loud, go plenty low and don't blow up when I do this.  

There is another guy in my area that does a ton of EDM stuff with the SRX 728s and he runs them with QSC 5050 amps they get plenty loud but aren't the best sounding boxes out there for the events.  The good thing is I have never heard of him blowing up a driver with his setup.  He does these events every single weekend and the 2000 watts +/- per box works just fine.  He is still using an anolog crossover and I think he could do a lot better with a good DSP but that's his deal, not mine.

I run TCS 2800 subs, I use Camco Vortex 6 amps ans BSS DSPs.   I can run mine with my limiters set at the continuous rating of 1400 watts per box (700 per driver) and I still get louder and go lower and sound better than he does.

If I were you and set on the SRX boxes then I would buy them and but some Itech 9000HDs or Itech 6000s but set my gain structure and limiting so that I am only feeding them the continuous rating of the drivers which I believe to be 1600 watts per box.  You could also do this just fine with the Itech 4000s or Iech 5000HDs.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on October 07, 2009, 12:48:16 pm
With I-TECH amps he could set the long-term/thermal voltage limit and should be pretty safe.  I bet running them to the thermal limit detracts from "punch" as the voice coils heat up and power compression sets in, though.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 07, 2009, 12:51:48 pm
Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:51

Tom Reid wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 23:23

Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:17

Tom Reid wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 23:15

Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:08

Somewhat glancing over all the discussion about power and who's got more watts, I give a huge +1 for a pair of SRX728s powered with a single IT8000. You will not be disappointed. Utilize the clip limiter and RMS power limiter and they'll never blow up.

Oh, and Itechs laugh at the XTis; hence, I sold all mine. You could use ten XTi4000s bridged and it still wouldn't sound as good as the single IT8000 I recommended.


I know I know ...
It's in the budget.
I'm getting there, I pick up the new trailer this week.

That said, the xti6000 is a different beastie.
I like it on mids (SRX725).



Xti6000 still sucks because it still has useless limiters and no Ethernet.

There are IT8000s everywhere for $1750 used and I've been buying piles of IT4000s for $1200 each or so.


Thanks, I know my amps suck.
But they don't suck that bad.
My ROI hasn't sucked yet ...



No insult intended Tom. The amps are working great for you, and I'm sure you bought them at the right price, and if you and your clients are happy then all is good, right? These days, any ROI you can get out of gear is worth it. You're probably doing better in that respect than me Confused


LOL
I got up yesterday, started coffee, took laundry down to wash, and a kid left a hand towel on the next to last stair.
I fell off that stair flat on my ass and twisted an ankle.
After that stunt. the rest of the day went to shit.

I can tell in my postings here.
Sorry Adam, Silas, and innocent bystanders.



Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 07, 2009, 12:58:53 pm
Apology unnecessary -  I wasn't trying to bust your balls either, I am just curious.  I do have limited test amps for these cabs.  They are sounding great to me but maybe I can find an IT8000+ and give it a shot.

Anyway jeff - the limiters in the ITech's let you limit RMS, Peak, and thermal.  RMS and thermal are very similar, it's just that RMS is measured over a shorter time period than thermal (thermal is usually measured over a several second period).

The ITech screen will actually show you how much gain is trimmed off by the RMS, Peak, and thermal limiters.  
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 01:20:28 pm
I've not got a chance in hell of being able to afford a Crown I-Tech amplifier because an I-Tech 6000 is over
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on October 07, 2009, 02:06:35 pm
Adam Schaible wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 11:58

Anyway jeff - the limiters in the ITech's let you limit RMS, Peak, and thermal.  RMS and thermal are very similar, it's just that RMS is measured over a shorter time period than thermal (thermal is usually measured over a several second period).

That's why I suggested it.  It seems like an investment in I-TECH power may be the best way for Jack to get a lot out of his subs without damaging them with EDM content.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Dave Rickard on October 07, 2009, 02:29:38 pm
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:30

I think two 728s will be plenty for the < 2000 sqft venue you are talking about.

Two tops may be plenty as well.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 03:33:49 pm
Dave Rickard wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 13:29

Jeff Wheeler wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:30

I think two 728s will be plenty for the < 2000 sqft venue you are talking about.

Two tops may be plenty as well.


I had my own 2 Peavey Hi-Sys 4XT mid/high cabs before when me and my mates used his JBL MP-418 subs. It was fairly loud bu the sound quality was pretty average. I'm not saure what the specs were for the Peavey Hi-Sys 4XT cabs. Its even more annoying that I can't find the specs on the internet anywhere either. I can find their replacements, the UL-215H cabs, but they dont have the peak spl listed, only the 100db sensitivity rating. If only I could find the peak spl specs for the old Hi-Sys 4XT cabs i'd know pretty accurately what to use in the venue, because its the same venue we used back then, and also I can remember how loud it was. If I had the specs, I could find a couple of mid/highs that are as loud or louder than the 4XT cabs. I might, when I get my SRX-728 sub (i'm buying 1 at a time because thats the only way I can afford it), ask the shop where I demo'd the EV Tour X 1152 cabs if they'll let me bring in the SRX-728 so I can hear the EV cabs on top of the SRX sub. If it sounds good but there's not quite enough mid/high with 2 cabs, I might actually just get the Tour X 2152 mid/highs because they're rated at 139db peak in half space. Taking off about 8-10 db to get a rough estimate of what they might give out continuous, I think they might well be matched to the SRX-728 subs.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 07, 2009, 04:32:24 pm
If your tops are measured in half space, take off 6db for full space as your tops definitely aren't going to be operating in half space.

Then take off another 10db as you've said for continuous numbers (they might only take off 6db, but 10db is more realistic IMO).

139 should equate to a solid 123db continuous.

Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 07, 2009, 08:49:02 pm
Well each SRX-728 sub is only gonna give me about 128-130db in hlaf space I would think, so it pretty much makes the sound even. I know its best to have about 4db-6db more of low frequency than mid/high frequency due to low frequency needing more power in order to sound as loud to the human ear. At least I think i've explained it right. I'm not gonna be operating in half space because from what I know half space spl boodt only applies to frequencies below about 300hz if I remember correctly. Frequencies above about 500hz wouldn't be any louder by using the speaker in mid/high mode in half space, all it would do is enable me to create more coverage of the venue.

From what I know, this is because frequencies below 300hz are omni-directional, wheras above 300hz they're less directional until you get higher and higher up in the frequency range where they become totally direction to the way the speakers are pointing. Bass is omni-directional so go backwards as well as forwards, thus enhancing low frequency spl to the wall behind the subs projecting sound going towards it, back to the way it came from (forwards)
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 07, 2009, 09:09:17 pm
Yup pretty close.  The 728's will couple, though - giving you 6db gain.  Plus, hopefully you can load them in quarter space (against the wall, and on the floor).  Between the coupling and boundary loading, you'll get a solid 12db over the half space measurement.

This is essential - bass heavy music you probably want 12-24db more sub bass than mids/highs.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Winston Gamble on October 08, 2009, 12:18:38 am
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:34

So, just explain to me (because i'm not that knowledgable) if i'll be ok. Are you guys saying that as long as I set the gain structure to ensure all equipment in the cahin clips at the same level, even though i'm playing music with the more bass than any other music style in the world (oldskool is more bass heavy than any other style i've ever heard) and also playing the uk hardcore which is highly compressed, I can put 3k through the SRX-728 sub as long as I dont run the signal past 0db, which means that in effect, I won't be pushing any distortion to the subs, only massive amounts of clean power. Am I right guys? Its when you try and make up the volume by pushing the system past the 0db light (after setting gain structure) that you're then putting harmonic distortion through the speakers. Am I right?


Nothings guaranteed.

Winston
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 05:44:25 am
Can I ask you something? Is half space out away from rear or side walls but ground stacked? And quarter space is ground stacked AND close to a rear wall? So what's ground stacked, in a corner of the venue, with the v shape of the corner exactly symmetrical to the centre of the back of the subwoofer's enclosure? Would that be like, 1/8th space or something? And also, let me clarify this, is this correct :

Full space = 0db gain in lower frequency
Half space = 6db gain in low frequency
Quarter space = 12db gain in low frequency
1/8th space = 18db gain in low frequency
Doubling of subwoofer enclosures or drivers = 3db gain in low frequency

Rough estimates I mean, no-one can tell exactly how many db gain you'd actually get.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 08, 2009, 07:16:11 am
Yup, according to physics these are the maximums.

You need to be very close to the boundary, like 2-3".

As far as doubling the drivers goes, it's actually a sensitivity thing.  You will gain 6db in the lower frequencies - about 70hz that 6db will start to go towards 3db.  It has to do with mutual coupling.  If you can get the drivers close enough you'll get 6db.

Doubling your woofers + powering them the same (wen clustered) = 6-9db depending on the frequency.

Doubling the power going in = 3db.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 07:24:48 am
So my figures about halfd space etc... were pretty accurate, or not far off? Is loading ina  corner with 2 walls and ground stacking too, 1/8th space then?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Duncan McLennan on October 08, 2009, 09:10:43 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 07:24

So my figures about halfd space etc... were pretty accurate, or not far off? Is loading ina  corner with 2 walls and ground stacking too, 1/8th space then?


Yes, a speaker in the corner of a room and on the floor is loaded in 1/8th space.  Against a wall and on the ground is 1/4 space.  On the ground outside or in the middle of a room far from any boundaries is 1/2 space.  Floating in mid air is full space.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 09:42:04 am
So would a rought guess be that the JBL SRX-728 will give out about 130db in quarter space, ground stacked against a rear wall? I took the 136db free space spec, added 6db for half, then another 6db for quarter space, then took off 10db for bullsh*t specs to be a little more real, then took off another 6db for continuous rating, to get a total of about 132db

Would you say, that might be pretty accurate as to what they might give out in quarter space?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 08, 2009, 09:52:06 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:42

So would a rought guess be that the JBL SRX-728 will give out about 130db in quarter space, ground stacked against a rear wall? I took the 136db free space spec, added 6db for half, then another 6db for quarter space, then took off 10db for bullsh*t specs to be a little more real, then took off another 6db for continuous rating, to get a total of about 132db

Would you say, that might be pretty accurate as to what they might give out in quarter space?


No, not at all.

I'd say the sub can definitely do 130dB continuously and 136dB peak like the specs say. The specs are rated half space, so quarter space adds another 6dB. So I can say you'd be well into the mid-130s continuously with peak near 140dB, if they're properly powered.

Remember that music has a big dynamic range of 10dB or more, so you could only be averaging 120dB on a meter with peaks being way higher.

**I really think this entire discussion is moot, because who cares about numbers anyway? Could you even tell the difference between 130dB SPL of bass or 135dB SPL of bass if it wasn't a side by side comparison?

Do what others said, rent the subs, try them out, if they work then buy them, if they don't then reconsider the options. There aren't going to be many situations where a couple SRX728S subs properly powered and processed are NOT going to do the trick.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 09:57:23 am
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 08:52

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:42

So would a rought guess be that the JBL SRX-728 will give out about 130db in quarter space, ground stacked against a rear wall? I took the 136db free space spec, added 6db for half, then another 6db for quarter space, then took off 10db for bullsh*t specs to be a little more real, then took off another 6db for continuous rating, to get a total of about 132db

Would you say, that might be pretty accurate as to what they might give out in quarter space?


No, not at all.

I'd say the sub can definitely do 130dB continuously and 136dB peak like the specs say. The specs are rated half space, so quarter space adds another 6dB. So I can say you'd be well into the mid-130s continuously with peak near 140dB, if they're properly powered.

Remember that music has a big dynamic range of 10dB or more, so you could only be averaging 120dB on a meter with peaks being way higher.

**I really think this entire discussion is moot, because who cares about numbers anyway? Could you even tell the difference between 130dB SPL of bass or 135dB SPL of bass if it wasn't a side by side comparison?

Do what others said, rent the subs, try them out, if they work then buy them, if they don't then reconsider the options. There aren't going to be many situations where a couple SRX728S subs properly powered and processed are NOT going to do the trick.



Like i've told about 43 people already now, I cant hire a pair of SRX-728 subs because there isn't anyone within a 135 miles distance of me who even has them for hire. Thats why I keep on about figures. If you cant rent speakers out to try them, all you can is try and rough guess yourself as to what they might do. I live in lincolnshire in the uk, there's nothing like what there is in the usa. In the usa there may be quite a few places to hire out JBL speakers, but here, all the hire companies mainly have is Nexo, L-Acoustics, Turbosound Aspect series and a few other very high end speakers that I couldn't afford even if I ribbed a bank.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 08, 2009, 10:07:16 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:57

Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 08:52

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:42

So would a rought guess be that the JBL SRX-728 will give out about 130db in quarter space, ground stacked against a rear wall? I took the 136db free space spec, added 6db for half, then another 6db for quarter space, then took off 10db for bullsh*t specs to be a little more real, then took off another 6db for continuous rating, to get a total of about 132db

Would you say, that might be pretty accurate as to what they might give out in quarter space?


No, not at all.

I'd say the sub can definitely do 130dB continuously and 136dB peak like the specs say. The specs are rated half space, so quarter space adds another 6dB. So I can say you'd be well into the mid-130s continuously with peak near 140dB, if they're properly powered.

Remember that music has a big dynamic range of 10dB or more, so you could only be averaging 120dB on a meter with peaks being way higher.

**I really think this entire discussion is moot, because who cares about numbers anyway? Could you even tell the difference between 130dB SPL of bass or 135dB SPL of bass if it wasn't a side by side comparison?

Do what others said, rent the subs, try them out, if they work then buy them, if they don't then reconsider the options. There aren't going to be many situations where a couple SRX728S subs properly powered and processed are NOT going to do the trick.



Like i've told about 43 people already now, I cant hire a pair of SRX-728 subs because there isn't anyone within a 135 miles distance of me who even has them for hire. Thats why I keep on about figures. If you cant rent speakers out to try them, all you can is try and rough guess yourself as to what they might do. I live in lincolnshire in the uk, there's nothing like what there is in the usa. In the usa there may be quite a few places to hire out JBL speakers, but here, all the hire companies mainly have is Nexo, L-Acoustics, Turbosound Aspect series and a few other very high end speakers that I couldn't afford even if I ribbed a bank.


Make me number 44 Very Happy

Given that, it might be worth buying used subs from a company in your area that you know what they sound like, than take a chance on something that might not work. Also if you have the same subs as the local guys you can rent more if you need.

No specs are ever going to tell you what a sub sounds like.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 08, 2009, 10:08:59 am
The SRX is a pretty damn nice cab for the cash.  I'm not a JBL nutrider or anything, but it sounds pretty good.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the 98db 1w/1m measurement is in full space.  My measurements showed 104db in full space 20v 10m.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 08, 2009, 10:09:52 am
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:08

The SRX is a pretty damn nice cab for the cash.  I'm not a JBL nutrider or anything, but it sounds pretty good.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the 98db 1w/1m measurement is in full space.  My measurements showed 104db in full space 20v 10m.


Please tell me how you measured a sub in full space?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 10:13:02 am
There's nothigng what so ever available like this in my area. The only places are the used sections on websites of pa sales sites, but there decent ones are over 130 miles away. I tell ya, the uk is total garbage for pa equipment these days.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 08, 2009, 10:13:59 am
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:09

Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:08

The SRX is a pretty damn nice cab for the cash.  I'm not a JBL nutrider or anything, but it sounds pretty good.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the 98db 1w/1m measurement is in full space.  My measurements showed 104db in full space 20v 10m.


Please tell me how you measured a sub in full space?



Whoops, that was a typing error.  I meant 104db 20v 10m in half space.

104db in full space would be a pretty serious sub!
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 08, 2009, 10:16:23 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:13

There's nothigng what so ever available like this in my area. The only places are the used sections on websites of pa sales sites, but there decent ones are over 130 miles away. I tell ya, the uk is total garbage for pa equipment these days.


That's extremely unfortunate and certainly makes making the best equipment decision much harder.

Since SRX728S subs are probably easier to sell if they don't work out, I'd probably just buy a pair of those and a big amp to start. As others have said, a pair of them should fill your 45x30 venue with a TON of bass. You will only need 1 top per side to keep up, as others have also said. If you end up needing more, just buy more subs. You might want to buy an amp that likes 2 ohms, like the QSC PL380, so you can add 2 more subs without adding another amp.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 10:16:47 am
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:08

The SRX is a pretty damn nice cab for the cash.  I'm not a JBL nutrider or anything, but it sounds pretty good.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the 98db 1w/1m measurement is in full space.  My measurements showed 104db in full space 20v 10m.


JBL tech guys have told me twice that its a full space spec. I e-mailed them from 2 of my different e-mail addresses to try and see, kind of catch them out. The electronic equivilent of going into a shop and asking a tech guy a question, then going back in there 20 minutes later dressed up differently with fake nose and fake beard and moustache asking the same question to see if they give what they think are 2 different guys, the same answer.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 10:20:04 am
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:16

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:13

There's nothigng what so ever available like this in my area. The only places are the used sections on websites of pa sales sites, but there decent ones are over 130 miles away. I tell ya, the uk is total garbage for pa equipment these days.


That's extremely unfortunate and certainly makes making the best equipment decision much harder.

Since SRX728S subs are probably easier to sell if they don't work out, I'd probably just buy a pair of those and a big amp to start. As others have said, a pair of them should fill your 45x30 venue with a TON of bass. You will only need 1 top per side to keep up, as others have also said. If you end up needing more, just buy more subs. You might want to buy an amp that likes 2 ohms, like the QSC PL380, so you can add 2 more subs without adding another amp.


Ooh Powerlight, I love Powerlight amps, but jesus finding them used is harder than trying to find part of hitler's moustache to keep as a collectors item. I dont mind buying another to power another pair of subs.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 08, 2009, 10:21:33 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:16

Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:08

The SRX is a pretty damn nice cab for the cash.  I'm not a JBL nutrider or anything, but it sounds pretty good.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the 98db 1w/1m measurement is in full space.  My measurements showed 104db in full space 20v 10m.


JBL tech guys have told me twice that its a full space spec. I e-mailed them from 2 of my different e-mail addresses to try and see, kind of catch them out. The electronic equivilent of going into a shop and asking a tech guy a question, then going back in there 20 minutes later dressed up differently with fake nose and fake beard and moustache asking the same question to see if they give what they think are 2 different guys, the same answer.


That's awesome.

Well full space it is then, and that means you get yet another 6dB of bass.

If I get the time (which I probably won't) I will model up a pair of Meyer 700HPs in a 45x30 room. It will tell you the bass coverage and level, and I assure you that there will be ample bass.

Maybe Bennett could do the model since I'm going to be leaving the office in a couple minutes?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 08, 2009, 10:22:07 am
When I first got my 728's, I also asked them what the crossover settings should be.

They confirmed that theirl iterature was correct and both the HP/LP should be set at 88.4 or something.

Point being, what they say is completely irrelelvant.  I'm pretty sure I've seen that you have measurement equipment - could you measure one?  In addition, I'm not trying to "certify" that my measurements are correct.  All I'm saying is that my measurements were average 104db using a C weighted meter from 40-120hz.  I am aware of the issues of using a C weighting scale, but my measurement equipment is not professional ($$$$) grade.

The cab didn't skew the measurements over 90hz either, they were pretty even.  I didn't weight my averages down below 40 because C weighting REALLY tends to fall off there.



Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 10:24:38 am
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:22

When I first got my 728's, I also asked them what the crossover settings should be.

They confirmed that theirl iterature was correct and both the HP/LP should be set at 88.4 or something.

Point being, what they say is completely irrelelvant.  I'm pretty sure I've seen that you have measurement equipment - could you measure one?  In addition, I'm not trying to "certify" that my measurements are correct.  All I'm saying is that my measurements were average 104db using a C weighted meter from 40-120hz.  I am aware of the issues of using a C weighting scale, but my measurement equipment is not professional ($$$$) grade.

The cab didn't skew the measurements over 90hz either, they were pretty even.  I didn't weight my averages down below 40 because C weighting REALLY tends to fall off there.






Damn thats pretty good then isn't it? 104db in half space.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 08, 2009, 10:29:30 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:24

Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:22

When I first got my 728's, I also asked them what the crossover settings should be.

They confirmed that theirl iterature was correct and both the HP/LP should be set at 88.4 or something.

Point being, what they say is completely irrelelvant.  I'm pretty sure I've seen that you have measurement equipment - could you measure one?  In addition, I'm not trying to "certify" that my measurements are correct.  All I'm saying is that my measurements were average 104db using a C weighted meter from 40-120hz.  I am aware of the issues of using a C weighting scale, but my measurement equipment is not professional ($$$$) grade.

The cab didn't skew the measurements over 90hz either, they were pretty even.  I didn't weight my averages down below 40 because C weighting REALLY tends to fall off there.






Damn thats pretty good then isn't it? 104db in half space.



104dB half space = 98dB full space = 110dB quarter space = 116dB eighth space
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 08, 2009, 10:30:19 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:16

Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:08

The SRX is a pretty damn nice cab for the cash.  I'm not a JBL nutrider or anything, but it sounds pretty good.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the 98db 1w/1m measurement is in full space.  My measurements showed 104db in full space 20v 10m.


JBL tech guys have told me twice that its a full space spec. I e-mailed them from 2 of my different e-mail addresses to try and see, kind of catch them out. The electronic equivilent of going into a shop and asking a tech guy a question, then going back in there 20 minutes later dressed up differently with fake nose and fake beard and moustache asking the same question to see if they give what they think are 2 different guys, the same answer.


Lansing Heritage is a forum that has a few JBL 'insiders'.
They post most of the raw driver specs from the JBL lab test.
It is marked on the spec whether they measure full space or not.

The 98db spec for the 728 is full space.  
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 10:32:38 am
[/quote]

104dB half space = 98dB full space = 110dB quarter space = 116dB eighth space[/quote]

When you look at it like that, it says to me that the SRX-728 subs in the small venue are gonna be manacing. Nice.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 08, 2009, 10:33:52 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:32

Quote:



104dB half space = 98dB full space = 110dB quarter space = 116dB eighth space


When you look at it like that, it says to me that the SRX-728 subs in the small venue are gonna be manacing. Nice.


Yes, they are not a wimpy sub, and physics is on your side.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 08, 2009, 10:34:17 am
Tom Reid wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:30

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:16

Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:08

The SRX is a pretty damn nice cab for the cash.  I'm not a JBL nutrider or anything, but it sounds pretty good.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the 98db 1w/1m measurement is in full space.  My measurements showed 104db in full space 20v 10m.


JBL tech guys have told me twice that its a full space spec. I e-mailed them from 2 of my different e-mail addresses to try and see, kind of catch them out. The electronic equivilent of going into a shop and asking a tech guy a question, then going back in there 20 minutes later dressed up differently with fake nose and fake beard and moustache asking the same question to see if they give what they think are 2 different guys, the same answer.


Lansing Heritage is a forum that has a few JBL 'insiders'.
They post most of the raw driver specs from the JBL lab test.
It is marked on the spec whether they measure full space or not.

The 98db spec for the 728 is full space.  



Thanks for chiming in.  It's nice to put that to bed.  I wasn't aware of this and I know my measurements are suspect - it was more of an excercise in education for me.  I'm glad to know I was reasonably close.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 08, 2009, 10:37:35 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:32




104dB half space = 98dB full space = 110dB quarter space = 116dB eighth space[/quote]

When you look at it like that, it says to me that the SRX-728 subs in the small venue are gonna be manacing. Nice.[/quote]


Now you realize why everyone in this thread has been telling you that a pair of them will be pretty serious.  Add 6db to those numbers when you add the other cab.  4000-6000w total into it and you've got another 33db of gain.

116 + (33 to 36) peak

Now most of this is hypothetical - and calculated at 1m away with no obstructions.  10m away and you drop off a fair amount, not to mention room nodes and cancellations.

Bottom line, the 728's sound good and get pretty loud.  I'm not sure there's a better choice in the price range.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 10:37:56 am
Not a wimpy sub. Neither was the Mpro 418 really, considering I only had 4 of them with 3k in total being put through all 4 of them.When I get the 1st SRX-728 sub i'll have some idea how much better (if any better) than a couple of Mpro 418 subs. I can still remember the awesome bass they use to give out.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 08, 2009, 10:38:54 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:37

Not a wimpy sub. Neither was the Mpro 418 really, considering I only had 4 of them with 3k in total being put through all 4 of them.When I get the 1st SRX-728 sub i'll have some idea how much better (if any better) than a couple of Mpro 418 subs. I can still remember the awesome bass they use to give out.


There is no comparison between the Mpro418 and the SRX728. The SRX will crush the Mpro any day.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 10:41:41 am
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:38

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:37

Not a wimpy sub. Neither was the Mpro 418 really, considering I only had 4 of them with 3k in total being put through all 4 of them.When I get the 1st SRX-728 sub i'll have some idea how much better (if any better) than a couple of Mpro 418 subs. I can still remember the awesome bass they use to give out.


There is no comparison between the Mpro418 and the SRX728. The SRX will crush the Mpro any day.


No I meant a couple of Mpro 418 subs, not a single 1, 2 of them.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 08, 2009, 10:42:24 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:41

Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:38

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:37

Not a wimpy sub. Neither was the Mpro 418 really, considering I only had 4 of them with 3k in total being put through all 4 of them.When I get the 1st SRX-728 sub i'll have some idea how much better (if any better) than a couple of Mpro 418 subs. I can still remember the awesome bass they use to give out.


There is no comparison between the Mpro418 and the SRX728. The SRX will crush the Mpro any day.


No I meant a couple of Mpro 418 subs, not a single 1, 2 of them.


I'm confident that an SRX728 will beat four MP418.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 10:44:59 am
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:42

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:41

Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:38

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:37

Not a wimpy sub. Neither was the Mpro 418 really, considering I only had 4 of them with 3k in total being put through all 4 of them.When I get the 1st SRX-728 sub i'll have some idea how much better (if any better) than a couple of Mpro 418 subs. I can still remember the awesome bass they use to give out.


There is no comparison between the Mpro418 and the SRX728. The SRX will crush the Mpro any day.


No I meant a couple of Mpro 418 subs, not a single 1, 2 of them.


I'm confident that an SRX728 will beat four MP418.


Are you sure? Because some people on here have said that they think an SRX-728 sub is about as good as a couple of MPro 418 subs. JBL didn tell me though that the SRX-728 can give out the output of 4 Mpro 418 subs, so maybe you're right.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Adam Schaible on October 08, 2009, 10:48:23 am
I'm with Silas.  The 728 handles double the power per cone, maybe even more.  I believe 4 mpro's would be pretty similar in sensitivity (probably a bit more) but the power handling levels the playing field.  Also, I think the 728 will sound WAY better.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 08, 2009, 10:51:36 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:44

Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:42

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:41

Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:38

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:37

Not a wimpy sub. Neither was the Mpro 418 really, considering I only had 4 of them with 3k in total being put through all 4 of them.When I get the 1st SRX-728 sub i'll have some idea how much better (if any better) than a couple of Mpro 418 subs. I can still remember the awesome bass they use to give out.


There is no comparison between the Mpro418 and the SRX728. The SRX will crush the Mpro any day.


No I meant a couple of Mpro 418 subs, not a single 1, 2 of them.


I'm confident that an SRX728 will beat four MP418.


Are you sure? Because some people on here have said that they think an SRX-728 sub is about as good as a couple of MPro 418 subs. JBL didn tell me though that the SRX-728 can give out the output of 4 Mpro 418 subs, so maybe you're right.


You like specs, check them out.

Sensitivity on the MP418S is 101dB half space, or 95dB full space. The MP418S handles significantly less power.

Most importantly though is that the MP418S starts falling off below 95dB at about 70Hz, whereas the SRX728 holds its sensitivity rating down to 40Hz or so. It looks like the MP418S is about 88dB SPL 1w/1m at 40Hz, whereas the SRX728 will be about 104dB. So the SRX has a HUGE, MASSIVE, BROBDINGNAGIAN advantage, especially for electronic music.

A pair of MP418S will be about 94dB vs 104dB for an equal number of cones with the SRX, meaning the SRX has a 10dB advantage at 40Hz plus it handles twice the power for another 3dB advantage.

edit: comma happy
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 10:56:35 am
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:48

I'm with Silas.  The 728 handles double the power per cone, maybe even more.  I believe 4 mpro's would be pretty similar in sensitivity (probably a bit more) but the power handling levels the playing field.  Also, I think the 728 will sound WAY better.


Without even hearing the SRX-728 subs, that would be my thought too, that they'd sound better because I mean, they're new drivers, the 2268 drivers, where the Mpro drivers were the old 2241. I'm sure that when I get 2 of them SRX-728 in there I should be happy. I guess december will be the test because thats when i'm doing the next party at the venue. I'm saving up as wek speak so whatever it is, i'll have a sub at the end of this month. It'll most likely be an SRX-728 though, because the sheer amount of customer reviews and statements from people who've used them, heard them or owned them is amazing, all saying that things like "excellent subs", ranging through to "awesome bass". I'm hiring out some mid/highs, L-Acosutics tops, these to be precise :

http://www.l-acoustics.com/products-arcs-36.html

4 of them, to go on speaker stands, and also my own bought and paid for SRX-728 sub in the middle with 2 Arcs on either side.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 10:59:52 am
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:51

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:44

Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:42

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:41

Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:38

jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:37

Not a wimpy sub. Neither was the Mpro 418 really, considering I only had 4 of them with 3k in total being put through all 4 of them.When I get the 1st SRX-728 sub i'll have some idea how much better (if any better) than a couple of Mpro 418 subs. I can still remember the awesome bass they use to give out.


There is no comparison between the Mpro418 and the SRX728. The SRX will crush the Mpro any day.


No I meant a couple of Mpro 418 subs, not a single 1, 2 of them.


I'm confident that an SRX728 will beat four MP418.


Are you sure? Because some people on here have said that they think an SRX-728 sub is about as good as a couple of MPro 418 subs. JBL didn tell me though that the SRX-728 can give out the output of 4 Mpro 418 subs, so maybe you're right.


You like specs, check them out.

Sensitivity on the MP418S is 101dB half space, or 95dB full space. The MP418S handles significantly less power.

Most importantly though is that the MP418S starts falling off below 95dB at about 70Hz, whereas the SRX728 holds its sensitivity rating down to 40Hz or so. It looks like the MP418S is about 88dB SPL 1w/1m at 40Hz, whereas the SRX728 will be about 104dB. So the SRX has a HUGE, MASSIVE, BROBDINGNAGIAN advantage, especially for electronic music.

A pair of MP418S will be about 94dB vs 104dB for an equal number of cones with the SRX, meaning the SRX has a 10dB advantage at 40Hz plus it handles twice the power for another 3dB advantage.

edit: comma happy


yeah I love my specs, but I dont wear them for reading. hee hee. Nah I just get curious about specs. Obviously specs are wildly inaccurate a lot of the time, but it gives a very, very rough idea of loud a speaker cabinet might be.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on October 08, 2009, 11:11:09 am
[quote title=jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 07:56]
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:48



http://www.l-acoustics.com/products-arcs-36.html

4 of them, to go on speaker stands, and also my own bought and paid for SRX-728 sub in the middle with 2 Arcs on either side.


I hope the venue is pretty narrow with only two Arcs a side (45 degrees) for coverage.  If you are in a wide room you may want to reconsider how you choose to cover the room....maybe three a side maybe some other speaker.  The Arcs sound great but....
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 11:13:12 am
They sound good they? I've never heard them, but have heard a bit about K-Acosutics. The venue is about 25-30ft wide.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 11:19:55 am
Do you guys know anything about Voide Acoustics Infinite amplifiers?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 08, 2009, 01:45:26 pm
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:48

I'm with Silas.  The 728 handles double the power per cone, maybe even more.  I believe 4 mpro's would be pretty similar in sensitivity (probably a bit more) but the power handling levels the playing field.  Also, I think the 728 will sound WAY better.


The MP drivers are not diffential drive.
The differential drive (drivers) were designed for the Vertec.
Lower cost points due to mass manufacturing allowed them to be used in the SRX series and the VRX.  I think the technology is replacing old JBL drivers and a differential drive loudspeaker will be the norm for JBL.

Here's the tech note to DD technology.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/JBL_TN%201-33%20rev3.pdf.

Dual voice coils have been around for awhile.  DD technology is NOT yet-another-dual-voicecoil technology.  It is designed for A: Better cooling of voice coils and B: Superior transient distortion characteristics.  
IOW they take longer and more power to heat up and when hot, don't distort as much.

I'm waiting around for quadratic drive before I upgrade (again).
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 01:59:26 pm
Well if the drivers are designed for the Vertec speakersa then they must be good, because the Vertec series are JBL's top if the range speakers aren't they?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on October 08, 2009, 02:11:40 pm
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 08:52

There aren't going to be many situations where a couple SRX728S subs properly powered and processed are NOT going to do the trick.

This is what I keep saying.  Jack's desired coverage area is pretty small.  There is some interesting discussion on this thread, but he is far too worried about not having enough bass in a space under 2000 sqft.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Tom Reid on October 08, 2009, 02:14:39 pm
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 13:11

Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 08:52

There aren't going to be many situations where a couple SRX728S subs properly powered and processed are NOT going to do the trick.

This is what I keep saying.  Jack's desired coverage area is pretty small.  There is some interesting discussion on this thread, but he is far too worried about not having enough bass in a space under 2000 sqft.


His worries should be directed toward how not to annoy the neighbors.

Yes, jack, Vertec is top of the line.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Jeff Babcock on October 08, 2009, 02:22:39 pm
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 14:11

Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 08:52

There aren't going to be many situations where a couple SRX728S subs properly powered and processed are NOT going to do the trick.

This is what I keep saying.  Jack's desired coverage area is pretty small.  There is some interesting discussion on this thread, but he is far too worried about not having enough bass in a space under 2000 sqft.


And it has taken 6 pages of posts about very standard double 18 subs to come to this conclusion......   Sad  I hate to sound like Grumpy Smurf, but this whole thread could have been summed up with the following response:

Jack... good quality 2x18's are pretty similar. Power a pair properly with a quality amp and it will be plenty for your venues 98% of the time.
 
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on October 08, 2009, 02:32:30 pm
Jeff Babcock wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 13:22

And it has taken 6 pages of posts

This isn't even his only thread on this topic.  I have made the same post about his small coverage area on others.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 02:48:49 pm
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 13:11

Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 08:52

There aren't going to be many situations where a couple SRX728S subs properly powered and processed are NOT going to do the trick.

This is what I keep saying.  Jack's desired coverage area is pretty small.  There is some interesting discussion on this thread, but he is far too worried about not having enough bass in a space under 2000 sqft.



Yeah, I do worry too much
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 02:53:40 pm
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 13:32

Jeff Babcock wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 13:22

And it has taken 6 pages of posts

This isn't even his only thread on this topic.  I have made the same post about his small coverage area on others.



Sorry, I dont mean to annoy people, its just that i'm too worried that 2 is not gonna be enough. Well I was, now im ok with 2 being probably enough after people convincing me. Thats how I am in life though, I doubt eveything, doubt my abilities at everything and have no confidence in anything I do.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Jeff Babcock on October 08, 2009, 04:12:33 pm
Jack, if you are really that worried about it then take the time to drive to somewhere where you can hear them first.  You may not live near the gear, but big deal.  A tank of gas is cheap compared to buying the wrong thing.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 04:23:05 pm
Jeff Babcock wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 15:12

Jack, if you are really that worried about it then take the time to drive to somewhere where you can hear them first.  You may not live near the gear, but big deal.  A tank of gas is cheap compared to buying the wrong thing.



Yeah I might ask the hire company if they'll me listen to them if I pay them a little bit. Oh sh*t, just thought, the've only got the SR series, not the SRX series. Damn. Saying that though, i'm gonna buy them regardless, because i've read so so many awesome reviews. Would a Camco Vortex 6 be ok to run a pair on? It gives 2,300 watts continuous (20hz-20khz spec) per channel into 4 ohms. I can hire one of them out from a place 38 miles from me, until I find and save up for an amp(s) to buy to power them.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on October 08, 2009, 05:26:43 pm
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 13:23

 Would a Camco Vortex 6 be ok to run a pair on? It gives 2,300 watts continuous (20hz-20khz spec) per channel into 4 ohms. I can hire one of them out from a place 38 miles from me, until I find and save up for an amp(s) to buy to power them.


I use Camco Vortex 6 amps and I typically run three of my TCS 2800 subs per amp all day long in outside temperatures up to 116F degrees (I live in Phoenix, Az) and I love them!  I think they are one of the finest amps made.  I have run four of my subs per amp on a few occasions and it worked just fine with plenty of head room.  One time was a speed metal fest with really fast double kick drums and another time was for a Hip Hop concert with the typical 12dB of hyped bass on lousy tracks and the amps performed great on both of those occasions.  
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 08, 2009, 05:52:34 pm
They're expensive over here, even used. The cheapest possible price they go for used is
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Dick Rees on October 08, 2009, 06:17:15 pm
index.php/fa/25407/0/

Dare to dream.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Silas Pradetto on October 09, 2009, 02:00:16 am
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 17:52

They're expensive over here, even used. The cheapest possible price they go for used is
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 05:53:01 am
Yes it does. If I have a bridged PLX-3102 on each sub, it'll give the subs 3,100 watts each. Or are you saying, its not a good idea bceause the PLX amps aren't very good at sub duty? My friend had an old PLX-3002 running the 4 JBL MPro 418 subs he had and it sounded fantastic. Nice amount of power and loads bass. He had 2 on each channel, amp running at 2 ohms per channel, 1,500 watts per channel. If you're saying that the PLX amps aren't good at powering subs, is it because they're switch mode instead of torroidal transformer?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 09, 2009, 07:51:25 am
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 11:57

So how come the volume goes up in level when I push the line level up past 0db? Is that hamronic distortion? Is that why although the spl goes up, the speaker's sound quality starts to suffer more and more, the higher you go up? Upto 0db the sound is clean, but past 0db its get louder but less defined.


ONCE AGAIN it is the AVERAGE LEVEL that is going up.  The peaks cannot get any louder-due to the limit of the amplifier-but the AVERAGE LEVEL will go up-and it will seem louder to your ears.

Of course the reason it starts to sound bad is you are compressing the signal (squashing it)-even if there is no "limiting" going on.  An amp that is clipping IS limiting the max signal level (peak) but NOT the average.

The more sound that is being produced also results in more heating.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 08:27:20 am
Ah, ok, now I get ya. So if set gain structure, so all equipment clips at the same level, the reason why I should have an overly powerful amplifer is simply because headroom means that you DONT HAVE TO go over the 0db light, which would start compressing the signal. Cool Ok. Son in effect then, going past the 0db light is, because your compressing the signal and heating things up, more likely to burn out the voice coil on the drivers yeah?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Charlie Jeal on October 09, 2009, 08:49:20 am
Jack,

The 0dB indicator is not where you want the whole system to be clipping at. What you are talking about is setting the system up so that everything clips at the same point simply going past the 0 db indicator does not compress the signal and anyway depending upon the metering ballistics any fast transients will go over the 0 dB point anyway you just wont see it happen. What will burn your drivers out is running the setup constantly into clip wherever that is within the system. So what you do is once you know where the system clips depends upon how you achieve this. Some people like to use the gain controls on the amp to set clip point others like to run the amp wide open and use the dsp to achieve this, depending upon your use and placement of the racks in your case I would tend to go for the latter as DJs do have a reputation for "tinkering" and if you have the clip points set via the gain controls on the amp messing with these alters the carefully set gain structure.If you use the "wide open" amp model you can attenuate the passbands in your dsp to achieve the same effect at the possible cost of a little signal to noise ratio which to be perfectly honest would be unoticeable and inaudbile in modern equipment having set this up you can then proceed to set the limiters with the dsp to provide a degree of protection. If you set the limiters too low and end up in solid limit all night this can restrict the movement of the voice coil in the driver and thus cause overheating and coil burnout.

Not running the system ,once proper gaiun structure is set, past an indicated 0dB is the best way to avoid any destruction but it never hurts to have limiters set up as well.

Charlie
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 08:56:06 am
Charlie Jeal wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 07:49

Jack,

The 0dB indicator is not where you want the whole system to be clipping at. What you are talking about is setting the system up so that everything clips at the same point simply going past the 0 db indicator does not compress the signal and anyway depending upon the metering ballistics any fast transients will go over the 0 dB point anyway you just wont see it happen. What will burn your drivers out is running the setup constantly into clip wherever that is within the system. So what you do is once you know where the system clips depends upon how you achieve this. Some people like to use the gain controls on the amp to set clip point others like to run the amp wide open and use the dsp to achieve this, depending upon your use and placement of the racks in your case I would tend to go for the latter as DJs do have a reputation for "tinkering" and if you have the clip points set via the gain controls on the amp messing with these alters the carefully set gain structure.If you use the "wide open" amp model you can attenuate the passbands in your dsp to achieve the same effect at the possible cost of a little signal to noise ratio which to be perfectly honest would be unoticeable and inaudbile in modern equipment having set this up you can then proceed to set the limiters with the dsp to provide a degree of protection. If you set the limiters too low and end up in solid limit all night this can restrict the movement of the voice coil in the driver and thus cause overheating and coil burnout.

Not running the system ,once proper gaiun structure is set, past an indicated 0dB is the best way to avoid any destruction but it never hurts to have limiters set up as well.

Charlie


I didn't mean that I set the clip point as 0db. What I do is use a pink noise test tone sample (disconnecting the speakers 1st) and make sure each piece of equipment is the chain is only just tickling the red light light,starting with the dj mixer, then move along the chain to the next piece of equipment and change the level so it too is tickling the red light. I do this until I get to the amplifier, which I then adjust in the input attenuators until the clip lights on the amp are being tickled. Then I turn the level down on the dj mixer (the first piece of equipment in the chain) and make sure the level doesn't go past 0db on the dj mixer all night. That way, I know the rest of the system wont be going past 0db. Thats how I set gain structure.

So the clip point is set as the 1st red light, but I dont ever let the level for the whole system exceed 0db. Do you kind of grasp what I mean?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Charlie Jeal on October 09, 2009, 09:18:53 am
Jack,

I get your meaning I'm just not certain that for your purposes using the input gains on the amp is the best way forward nfor the reasons I mentioned in my previous post also pink noise is not necessarily the best signal for setting gain structure in this manner, sinewaves in the appropriate passbands can be more effective to achieve the peak voltage.


Charlie
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 09:24:31 am
Charlie Jeal wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 08:18

Jack,

I get your meaning I'm just not certain that for your purposes using the input gains on the amp is the best way forward nfor the reasons I mentioned in my previous post also pink noise is not necessarily the best signal for setting gain structure in this manner, sinewaves in the appropriate passbands can be more effective to achieve the peak voltage.


Charlie


So are you trying to say that I should just wack the amp gains on full and then set the system that way? Because that reduces dynamic range doesn't it? I only use pink noise because a every hire company i've talked to say they use that way due to the pink noise being a constant signal as aposed to a signal bouncing up and down. I thought you set gain structure, then the last piece of equipment in the chain (the amps), you adjust the input attenuators.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on October 09, 2009, 09:53:29 am
jack smith wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 06:24

Charlie Jeal wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 08:18

Jack,

I get your meaning I'm just not certain that for your purposes using the input gains on the amp is the best way forward nfor the reasons I mentioned in my previous post also pink noise is not necessarily the best signal for setting gain structure in this manner, sinewaves in the appropriate passbands can be more effective to achieve the peak voltage.


Charlie


So are you trying to say that I should just wack the amp gains on full and then set the system that way? Because that reduces dynamic range doesn't it? I only use pink noise because a every hire company i've talked to say they use that way due to the pink noise being a constant signal as aposed to a signal bouncing up and down. I thought you set gain structure, then the last piece of equipment in the chain (the amps), you adjust the input attenuators.


No, what he is saying is that if you keep you amp attenuators wide open then some fucking stupid ass DJ wont be able to turn them up any further resulting in the destruction of your gear.  Remember that the typical EDM dj is a stupid fuck and they WILL turn up past your first red light and they will turn up your amps if you turn your back and they don't give a fuck because it's not their gear!  That's also the reason that you don't want to give a stupid fuck the controls while you are powering your subs with too much power.  It's one thing for an experienced user to do it but not so smart for EDM DJs.

You need to hang out at the study hall for about six months and read everything in there!
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 10:00:02 am
Oh I get ya, yeah. Its ok, i've never had a single dj touch anything I told them not to, so they never turn it up. I use fear to control djs who play on my system. They know that I set the level, if they turn it up anymore than what I say, they get kicked off the decks and told to leave, and also get told in a way that makes them tremble what will happen if they break anything of mine. That way I dont have to pay for expensive limiters or dsp with limiters to keep levels under control.I check the levels every 5 minutes, I always have done, always will. I adore my equipment and if anyone abuses it, I take it like they're abusing my children. The punishment is very brutal and severe, but I wont go into that on here.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Scott Smith on October 09, 2009, 10:23:36 am
jack smith wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 05:53

...If you're saying that the PLX amps aren't good at powering subs, is it because they're switch mode instead of torroidal transformer?

As long as your "switch mode" amps have a solid source of power, they will power subs with NO difficulty, and sound great!  I have been powering my subs lately with a pair of PLX3002's (while my PL's are out of service), and have regained some new respect for them... as long as they are powered properly and adequately.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Tom Reid on October 09, 2009, 11:00:06 am
jack smith wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:00

Oh I get ya, yeah. Its ok, i've never had a single dj touch anything I told them not to, so they never turn it up. I use fear to control djs who play on my system. They know that I set the level, if they turn it up anymore than what I say, they get kicked off the decks and told to leave, and also get told in a way that makes them tremble what will happen if they break anything of mine. That way I dont have to pay for expensive limiters or dsp with limiters to keep levels under control.I check the levels every 5 minutes, I always have done, always will. I adore my equipment and if anyone abuses it, I take it like they're abusing my children. The punishment is very brutal and severe, but I wont go into that on here.


The thread that won't die ...

Amps like the Itech and the XTI have front panel lockouts.
I believe on the xti you just lock out the DSP.
I dunno about the Itech I haven't been able to afford one yet.
Instilling fear and being intimidating works a lot of the times.
It's the %5 of the time it doesn't work that cost money.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 11:02:41 am
What do you mean solid source of power? How could I find out if I do. We have 220v olver here in the uk, and the venue I do parties at has a few wall sockets (obviously). I try and use a socket on its own for the amplifiers, but in the smalle venue where I do my parties, thats very difficult so I have to use a 6 way trailing socket and plug the amp into that as well as other equipment like the crossover etc...
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 11:08:34 am
Tom Reid wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 10:00

jack smith wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:00

Oh I get ya, yeah. Its ok, i've never had a single dj touch anything I told them not to, so they never turn it up. I use fear to control djs who play on my system. They know that I set the level, if they turn it up anymore than what I say, they get kicked off the decks and told to leave, and also get told in a way that makes them tremble what will happen if they break anything of mine. That way I dont have to pay for expensive limiters or dsp with limiters to keep levels under control.I check the levels every 5 minutes, I always have done, always will. I adore my equipment and if anyone abuses it, I take it like they're abusing my children. The punishment is very brutal and severe, but I wont go into that on here.


The thread that won't die ...

Amps like the Itech and the XTI have front panel lockouts.
I believe on the xti you just lock out the DSP.
I dunno about the Itech I haven't been able to afford one yet.
Instilling fear and being intimidating works a lot of the times.
It's the %5 of the time it doesn't work that cost money.



Well i've not had a single dj in over 10 years mess with anything. We had a lad who wasn't a dj cause trouble by telling another lad he was gonna punch him, so we just took him outside and beat him up. If there's any more than a simple lad causing trouble then we have serious backup in the way of very dangerous friends who do things I cannot say about on this forum. But anwyay, my parties seem to go excellent every single time. But anyway, tom I understand that you want this topic closed so let me say thank you for everyone who's given me advice. Now you can close the topic if you want.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Tom Reid on October 09, 2009, 11:15:36 am
You misunderstand.
A thread dies when it dies.
I have no desire to say any topic closed.
When people stop discussing, nothing is learned.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: John Horvath on October 09, 2009, 12:17:27 pm
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 08:53

No, what he is saying is that if you keep you amp attenuators wide open then some fucking stupid ass DJ wont be able to turn them up any further resulting in the destruction of your gear.  Remember that the typical EDM dj is a stupid fuck and they WILL turn up past your first red light and they will turn up your amps if you turn your back and they don't give a fuck because it's not their gear!  That's also the reason that you don't want to give a stupid fuck the controls while you are powering your subs with too much power.  It's one thing for an experienced user to do it but not so smart for EDM DJs.

You need to hang out at the study hall for about six months and read everything in there!


Holy fuck, Ryan, I think that's a fucking record !!

Laughing
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 09, 2009, 12:23:14 pm
So if your gear and "system of protection" is working fine for you, then why are you asking questions about gear.

I find it interesting that in one thread you talk about using good limiters and "speaker protectors" and then in this thread you talk about how you are proud that you don't have to.

So what happens if you keep pushing your output capabilities and then something fails-do you just shoot the DJ on the spot?  I know a lot of people would like to do that Laughing

It sounds like you are all set and have lots of experience doing this. Rolling Eyes

Just wondering-what is your current system-not the one you would like to have-but what do you use NOW?  And be honest. Maybe I missed that somewhere.  
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on October 09, 2009, 12:47:04 pm
John Horvath wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:17


Holy fuck, Ryan, I think that's a fucking record !!

Laughing



Yeah, I usually try not to use as many profanities online as Andy P. but this OP is really starting to seem like he doesn't listen to anyone with more experience than himself.  We had one of them around here a couple years ago and I think they finally let him back in but didn't they block his IP for a while or something like that.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: John Norris on October 09, 2009, 01:34:57 pm
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 12:47

John Horvath wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:17


Holy fuck, Ryan, I think that's a fucking record !!

Laughing



Yeah, I usually try not to use as many profanities online as Andy P. but this OP is really starting to seem like he doesn't listen to anyone with more experience than himself.  We had one of them around here a couple years ago and I think they finally let him back in but didn't they block his IP for a while or something like that.


This thread is good Guy Ritchie material, don't you think?

"I spent m'whole fookin' giro on this shite and ya done fried it. Now I'm gonna doof ya, I'm gonna doof ya good".
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 01:45:57 pm
Ivan Beaver wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 11:23

So if your gear and "system of protection" is working fine for you, then why are you asking questions about gear.

I find it interesting that in one thread you talk about using good limiters and "speaker protectors" and then in this thread you talk about how you are proud that you don't have to.

So what happens if you keep pushing your output capabilities and then something fails-do you just shoot the DJ on the spot?  I know a lot of people would like to do that Laughing

It sounds like you are all set and have lots of experience doing this. Rolling Eyes

Just wondering-what is your current system-not the one you would like to have-but what do you use NOW?  And be honest. Maybe I missed that somewhere.  



Because  I was thinking about buying a loudpseaker management system with good limiters in it, but upto now i've made damn sure that no dj touches any controls apart from the dj mixer channel faders and gain controls, but tell them how much to go upto, and NOT beyond
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 01:48:16 pm
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 11:47

John Horvath wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 09:17


Holy fuck, Ryan, I think that's a fucking record !!

Laughing



Yeah, I usually try not to use as many profanities online as Andy P. but this OP is really starting to seem like he doesn't listen to anyone with more experience than himself.  We had one of them around here a couple years ago and I think they finally let him back in but didn't they block his IP for a while or something like that.


You're getting me all wrong. I AM listening to what people say, its just that I have a very hard time understanding it all, and also have a lot of trouble with concentration, probably due to my adhd. I am rtying to understand what is being told to me. Stop thinking i'm a troll or something.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Charlie Jeal on October 09, 2009, 02:09:26 pm
Lets face it guys Jack isnt anywhere as annoying as Tim Duffin is/was.

Charlie
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Drew West on October 09, 2009, 02:34:43 pm
Quote:

no dj touches any controls apart from the dj mixer channel faders and gain controls, but tell them how much to go upto, and NOT beyond


I have a hard time believing that works. Telling a hard-headed DJ how much he can turn up his equipment... They always seem to want it louder, when you give them their check the fader is at a normal level, but at the end of the day it's always all the way up.

Does he think that the sound guy doesn't notice when he turns up?
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on October 09, 2009, 02:37:38 pm
Charlie Jeal wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 11:09

Lets face it guys Jack isnt anywhere as annoying as Tim Duffin is/was.

Charlie


True, but maybe Tim's liquid cooled subs would be right for Jack.  Laughing
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on October 09, 2009, 02:48:58 pm
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 16:52

I like the idea of a QSC PLX-3102 because it gives the subs 3k each.

I believe Silas tried to point this out and it got lost in the discussion of how best to keep idiot DJs from blowing up your gear.  You can read the amp output specs yourself here: http://www.qsc.com/products/amps/plx2/  It is not a 3000w/ch amp but perhaps you mean you'll bridge one amp into each sub, which is sensible given that you don't want your only subwoofer amplifier to experience a problem during a gig and then go without bass.  I don't own PLX amps but I read mixed feelings about them on subs.

If you really want to keep idiot DJs from blowing up your gear you should put security panels on your racks and bi-amp your tops so the HF drivers can't be blown up by clip distortion, or pay someone to babysit said idiot DJs.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 09, 2009, 04:26:37 pm
jack smith wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 13:48

[
You're getting me all wrong. I AM listening to what people say, its just that I have a very hard time understanding it all, and also have a lot of trouble with concentration, probably due to my adhd.


Is it me or does every DJ who "doesn't get it" or is obnoxious claim to have ADHD. Laughing

If that is truly the case-there is no point in trying to explain it as they cannot pay attention long enough to "get it".  So just let them go their own way and do what they want.

They will anyway.

Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Bob Leonard on October 09, 2009, 05:31:05 pm
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 14:37

Charlie Jeal wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 11:09

Lets face it guys Jack isnt anywhere as annoying as Tim Duffin is/was.

Charlie


True, but maybe Tim's liquid cooled subs would be right for Jack.  Laughing


I've been following but have standby this week and very little time. You both suck. It took over a year to forget about Duffin, so all I can say now is "Bus driver, stop here and let my friend Jack off."
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Charlie Jeal on October 09, 2009, 06:17:20 pm
Sorry I revived the nightmare Bob, I just thought it might put jack in perspective.

Charlie
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: jack smith on October 10, 2009, 11:14:33 am
Bob Leonard wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 16:31

RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 14:37

Charlie Jeal wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 11:09

Lets face it guys Jack isnt anywhere as annoying as Tim Duffin is/was.

Charlie


True, but maybe Tim's liquid cooled subs would be right for Jack.  Laughing


I've been following but have standby this week and very little time. You both suck. It took over a year to forget about Duffin, so all I can say now is "Bus driver, stop here and let my friend Jack off."


Finally someone who's sticking up for me getting bullied. I cant help that I have adhd, I find simple things hard to understand due to lack on concentration.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Bob Leonard on October 10, 2009, 11:25:04 am
Charlie Jeal wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 18:17

Sorry I revived the nightmare Bob, I just thought it might put jack in perspective.

Charlie



Jack,
Some of that was tongue in cheek, maybe not. But here's what you need to do. Take your thoughts, write them down on paper, go over them, combine them with any listening tests or comparisons you've made, and make a decision.

This thread could go on forever and nothing will be accomplished, other than those who may have an answer for a valid question in the future might be very hesitant to respond for fear of writing the second addition of this novel. Good luck, and let us know how you make out.
Smile
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 10, 2009, 12:00:14 pm
jack smith wrote on Sat, 10 October 2009 11:14

Finally someone who's sticking up for me getting bullied. I cant help that I have adhd, I find simple things hard to understand due to lack on concentration.



Then just give up trying to understand.  If you admit that you cannot/will not understand-then asking the same questions over and over again and again will not get you anywhere.  You STILL will not get it.

Maybe if you listened to some real music it would help to change the way your brain "thinks" and would allow some more brain cells to develop and then some of this might sink in.

Brains that are "exercised" are known to be smarter.  Mindless repetitive "noise" does not help any. Laughing


Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: jack smith on October 10, 2009, 01:03:54 pm
Bob Leonard wrote on Sat, 10 October 2009 10:25

Charlie Jeal wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 18:17

Sorry I revived the nightmare Bob, I just thought it might put jack in perspective.

Charlie



Jack,
Some of that was tongue in cheek, maybe not. But here's what you need to do. Take your thoughts, write them down on paper, go over them, combine them with any listening tests or comparisons you've made, and make a decision.

This thread could go on forever and nothing will be accomplished, other than those who may have an answer for a valid question in the future might be very hesitant to respond for fear of writing the second addition of this novel. Good luck, and let us know how you make out.
Smile



Ok thanks bob.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Dave Rickard on October 10, 2009, 01:25:20 pm
jack smith wrote on Sat, 10 October 2009 09:14

 I find simple things hard to understand due to lack on concentration.

1.  If that's true, maybe professional audio just isn't a good choice for you?  Audio really is managing a million simple things simultaneously.  Under pressure.  And deadlines.

2.  Don't fall prey to the paralysis of analysis.  Do something.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?-ONCE AGAIN!!!
Post by: Dick Rees on October 10, 2009, 01:29:33 pm
Dave Rickard wrote on Sat, 10 October 2009 12:25

  Don't fall prey to the paralysis of analysis.  Do something.


Well said.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Justin Stern on October 10, 2009, 04:52:07 pm
I will speak from my experience.

If you are running continuous music playback and you are running heavy bass music which is pretty much standard with today's hip hop and dance DO NOT and I mean DO NOT power them at the program rating which would be around 3000rms if I am not mistaken for the JBL.

Power them around 1600 (JBL) and you will be golden.  I have setup a few different dual 18's in a few different venues and they blew, not becasue the DJ is an idiot, becasue the woofers were over driven.  I switched out the amp to match the continuous rating of the subs and everything was better.  I could not tell the difference in sound either. (SPL)

If this is for live situations,then that is a completely different story.




Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 10, 2009, 06:02:30 pm
But then he won't be able to the "the most" out of the system Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

Sorry-couldn't resist.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: Randy Pence on October 10, 2009, 06:15:26 pm
being diagnosed with adhd in the 80s, when the time came to listen to mindless repetitive beats or grunge or green day type stuff with my peers, i chose repetition.  Orchestras performing john cage and steve reich seem to as well.  Have you never had the pleasure of listening to a drum circle?Smile

jack, adhd is a copout and can actually help you with sound stuff if you harness its energy instead of scattering it everywhere.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: Scott Smith on October 10, 2009, 11:23:54 pm
Ivan Beaver wrote on Sat, 10 October 2009 12:00

...If you admit that you cannot/will not understand-then asking the same questions over and over again and again will not get you anywhere.  You STILL will not get it...

Of course, if people are going to keep "answering" the same questions over and over..... Shocked
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: jack smith on October 11, 2009, 06:20:35 am
Justin Stern wrote on Sat, 10 October 2009 15:52

I will speak from my experience.

If you are running continuous music playback and you are running heavy bass music which is pretty much standard with today's hip hop and dance DO NOT and I mean DO NOT power them at the program rating which would be around 3000rms if I am not mistaken for the JBL.

Power them around 1600 (JBL) and you will be golden.  I have setup a few different dual 18's in a few different venues and they blew, not becasue the DJ is an idiot, becasue the woofers were over driven.  I switched out the amp to match the continuous rating of the subs and everything was better.  I could not tell the difference in sound either. (SPL)

If this is for live situations,then that is a completely different story.







Ok, will do then. Thanks. As for me having a severe lack of concentration, most of the work I
do is hooking systems up and sometimes adjusting the eq, if need be, that is. I get on good with eq'ing because even though I have trouble concentrating, i've found out that if I try and keep focused and dont let my mind wander i'm ok. I know what my ears like, and if it sounds ok to my ears then thats good enough for me. And i've not had a single complaint from anyone who's system i've set up. But hell, i'm not anywhere near a good engineer.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: jack smith on October 11, 2009, 06:26:11 am
Randy Pence wrote on Sat, 10 October 2009 17:15

being diagnosed with adhd in the 80s, when the time came to listen to mindless repetitive beats or grunge or green day type stuff with my peers, i chose repetition.  Orchestras performing john cage and steve reich seem to as well.  Have you never had the pleasure of listening to a drum circle?Smile

jack, adhd is a copout and can actually help you with sound stuff if you harness its energy instead of scattering it everywhere.



Thanks andy. I lose concentration mainly when i've been doiong something for more than 60 seconds, so to combat it, I try and refresh myself when I start to feel my mind wander. I suppose its kind of like taking a time out. But a short time out, just to refocus again.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: Scott Smith on October 11, 2009, 09:26:37 am
jack smith wrote on Sun, 11 October 2009 06:26

...I lose concentration mainly when i've been doiong something for more than 60 seconds..

http://www.alexionescu.ro/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/adhd_cartoon1.jpg
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: jack smith on October 12, 2009, 06:21:01 am
Scott Smith wrote on Sun, 11 October 2009 08:26

jack smith wrote on Sun, 11 October 2009 06:26

...I lose concentration mainly when i've been doiong something for more than 60 seconds..

http://www.alexionescu.ro/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/adhd_cartoon1.jpg


I'm glad you can find my adhd funny, because I dont find it funny.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: Dave Rickard on October 12, 2009, 01:18:43 pm
jack smith wrote on Mon, 12 October 2009 04:21

I'm glad you can find my adhd funny, because I dont find it funny.

I found the cartoon funny.

I was labeled back in the late 1960's.  We called just called it "hyperactive" back then.  The advised treatment was Ritalin.  My parents instead chose to treat it with topical doses of pine to my back pockets, like parents have done for eons.  It's worked for gazillions of kids!

Everybody has something to overcome.  Stop playing the victim.  Start making noise.

No offense intended.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 13, 2009, 08:04:56 am
Dave Rickard wrote on Mon, 12 October 2009 13:18

[ The advised treatment was Ritalin.  My parents instead chose to treat it with topical doses of pine to my back pockets, like parents have done for eons.  It's worked for gazillions of kids!

.


And there in lies the root of many of todays problems-NOT ENOUGH of the pine (or hickory stick) to the rear end. Laughing

My Grandmother used to make me go choose a "switch" and if I did not get a good enough one-BOY was I EVER in trouble then Shocked

The classrooms would be so much better if teachers (or at least principals) were allowed to discipline with pain.  Worked for me Laughing  

They are just full of kids who, once they realize the teacher really can't do anything to them-run the classrooms.

That's goona get this thread locked Laughing
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: Bob Leonard on October 13, 2009, 08:38:28 am
Ivan Beaver wrote on Tue, 13 October 2009 08:04

Dave Rickard wrote on Mon, 12 October 2009 13:18

[ The advised treatment was Ritalin.  My parents instead chose to treat it with topical doses of pine to my back pockets, like parents have done for eons.  It's worked for gazillions of kids!

.


And there in lies the root of many of todays problems-NOT ENOUGH of the pine (or hickory stick) to the rear end. Laughing

My Grandmother used to make me go choose a "switch" and if I did not get a good enough one-BOY was I EVER in trouble then Shocked

The classrooms would be so much better if teachers (or at least principals) were allowed to discipline with pain.  Worked for me Laughing  

They are just full of kids who, once they realize the teacher really can't do anything to them-run the classrooms.

That's goona get this thread locked Laughing


Maybe not locked. I agree that a certain amount of corporal punishment is what's needed. Growing up in my era was far different than today, I'll agree to that, but discipline really shouldn't be that much different. I never met a kid who had an attention deficit problem, but I did know plenty of kids who just didn't pay attention, screwed around, or otherwise couldn't do what they were told. That is until Mom and Dad were called in and let the beatings begin. That was usually when little Johnny realised he better tow the line. Both my daughters knew what a whack on the ass was all about, both understand there is punishment for wrong, both now are doing just fine with life. What the world needs is a good dose of 75 year old nun with a ruler, yardstick or pointer. We could just send them out in herds, free from reprisal, to whack the crap out of anyone doing wrong, one city at a time.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: jack smith on October 13, 2009, 01:10:26 pm
Ivan Beaver wrote on Tue, 13 October 2009 07:04

Dave Rickard wrote on Mon, 12 October 2009 13:18

[ The advised treatment was Ritalin.  My parents instead chose to treat it with topical doses of pine to my back pockets, like parents have done for eons.  It's worked for gazillions of kids!

.


And there in lies the root of many of todays problems-NOT ENOUGH of the pine (or hickory stick) to the rear end. Laughing

My Grandmother used to make me go choose a "switch" and if I did not get a good enough one-BOY was I EVER in trouble then Shocked

The classrooms would be so much better if teachers (or at least principals) were allowed to discipline with pain.  Worked for me Laughing  

They are just full of kids who, once they realize the teacher really can't do anything to them-run the classrooms.

That's goona get this thread locked Laughing


I'm affraid children with the same as me, aspergers syndrome and adhd hit back regardless of how big a person is. Children with aspergers are known to lash out on ANYONE so it'd be no good if teachers were aloud to discipline with pain. My daughter has aspergers, just like me and when the teachers speak her wrong, she feels intimidated and nervous like all people with aspergers do to a point, then she suddenly lashes out with no fear at all of the person she's lashing out at. I told them she's got aspergers but they dont understand, nor do they want to. Its a known fact that you NEVER pin a child in a corner because he or she will get finally get scared and just want it to become over so badly that the only way out of the situation is through the person telling them off or hassling them.

I was like that when younger, in my 20's, a lad use to pick on me. I tried finding a way out of it until he got me in town 1 day and pinned me in a corner, a proper corner at the back of a shop, and so I asked him to leave me alone. He wouldn't so I saw 1 way out, and that was through him, and suddenly exploded with rage, knocked him down and tried strangling him to death sqeezing as hard as I could until he was going blue, then a friend dragged me off and I tried to run for him again and was bite his nose off, litterally, I wanted his blood. Thats how I saw as being the only way to stop him bullying me. I'm still like it today. My next door neighbour picked on me and intimidated me for over a year until he pushed me, and I ran into my house, got a metal hoover (vacuum cleaner) pipe and ran outside and smashed him in the face with it 5 times and kept doing it until a stranger pulled me off. His face was well bloody. I saw that as the only way to stop the torment.I went to court and my lawyer said I had aspergers and they let me off with a fine. I shouldn't be telling you guys this, i'm too open.


Anyway, I think this has gone way past the point of talking about subwoofers. I think, personally this topic should be locked and closed.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: Drew West on October 13, 2009, 01:46:51 pm
I didn't see that one coming...   Shocked
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: Tom Reid on October 13, 2009, 01:56:55 pm
I raised three daughters.
2 were diagnosed with ADHD.
The two required different treatment.
While one would understand the consequences of her actions, they other would not care.  For her it required a different stick and carrot.

Both are functioning well in society today as a testament to my patients.  So often we tend to generalize.  I'm guilty of it too.  Statement like most people, or all of them do this are just cop outs in some cases (hmmm a generalization of a generalization).  Focus on the individual.  With time one can figure out what works or doesn't.

Now I'm not gonna get all Father Flannigan on ya'll but I've never seen a kid who is genuinely bad.  
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Try real music ot develope brain cells
Post by: jack smith on October 13, 2009, 02:17:32 pm
Tom Reid wrote on Tue, 13 October 2009 12:56

I raised three daughters.
2 were diagnosed with ADHD.
The two required different treatment.
While one would understand the consequences of her actions, they other would not care.  For her it required a different stick and carrot.

Both are functioning well in society today as a testament to my patients.  So often we tend to generalize.  I'm guilty of it too.  Statement like most people, or all of them do this are just cop outs in some cases (hmmm a generalization of a generalization).  Focus on the individual.  With time one can figure out what works or doesn't.

Now I'm not gonna get all Father Flannigan on ya'll but I've never seen a kid who is genuinely bad.  


Well I know my daughter who has aspergers and adhd isn't bad, neither am I. We just are both very much alike and suffer from the same thing, and get picked on, judged by people for the  way we act and speak and people just dont seem to care or want to understand. It seems easier and less time consuming for people to just stand there and point the finger at me and say "he's a bad seed" or look on me as a trouble causer or scum, when i've never onced caused trouble. Trouble comes looking for me, so I run away, and when it follows me, I run faster asking to be left alone, then when it starts catching up with me I turn round and chop its head off.

I've always been judge for acting like that, but I cant help it. People play with fire and then blame people like me when I burn them for it.
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on February 24, 2010, 03:55:38 am
Oh cool, I knew this 4 month old thread was worth bumping back up...



Evan
Title: Re: JBL SRX-728 or EV QRX-218? Which best for my music style?
Post by: Scott Smith on February 24, 2010, 07:24:15 am
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Wed, 24 February 2010 03:55

Oh cool, I knew this 4 month old thread was worth bumping back up...Evan

+1  Just what was missing from 5 pages of a 2009 discussion... a newbie DJ perspective.. Shocked