ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => Product Reviews: Sound Reinforcement FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: Tom Corley on August 31, 2009, 06:28:45 pm

Title: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Tom Corley on August 31, 2009, 06:28:45 pm
I AM A MOBILE DJ WITH 30 YEARS IN THE GAME. I AM CURRENTLY USING EON TOPS AND MRX 518 SUBS POWERED BY A CROWN 400OI POWER AMP. I AM RUNNING THE SUBS BRIDGED. I AM LOOKING TO UPGRADE. I AM FROM THE SCHOOL OF HIGH FIDELITY AND THERE IS NEVER TOO MUCH BASS. I DO NOT HAVE AN UNLIMITED BUDGET  AND MY RIG MUST BE POTRABLE BY ME ALONE. ANY SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE APPRECIATED. I HAVE LISTENED TO TONS OF EQUP FROM YORKVILLE(NOT BAD BUT HEAVY)TO MEYER( IF I EVER HIT THE LOTTERY..)
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 31, 2009, 06:52:38 pm
Tom Corley wrote on Mon, 31 August 2009 18:28

I AM A MOBILE DJ WITH 30 YEARS IN THE GAME. I AM CURRENTLY USING EON TOPS AND MRX 518 SUBS POWERED BY A CROWN 400OI POWER AMP. I AM RUNNING THE SUBS BRIDGED. I AM LOOKING TO UPGRADE. I AM FROM THE SCHOOL OF HIGH FIDELITY AND THERE IS NEVER TOO MUCH BASS. I DO NOT HAVE AN UNLIMITED BUDGET  AND MY RIG MUST BE POTRABLE BY ME ALONE. ANY SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE APPRECIATED. I HAVE LISTENED TO TONS OF EQUP FROM YORKVILLE(NOT BAD BUT HEAVY)TO MEYER( IF I EVER HIT THE LOTTERY..)

Stop yelling and give an idea of your budget and does size matter to you?  

What are you transporting your gear in? It is one thing to roll it onto a trailer and quite another to have to lift it up to a highrise pickup.

Giving some details will help.

Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Tom Corley on August 31, 2009, 07:00:38 pm
Sorry got stuck on caps lock...I looking to spend up to $3,000. I have two mini vans available. My average event is 200-400ppl. On occasion a big show of about 6-700.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 31, 2009, 07:13:05 pm
Tom Corley wrote on Mon, 31 August 2009 19:00

Sorry got stuck on caps lock...I looking to spend up to $3,000. I have two mini vans available. My average event is 200-400ppl. On occasion a big show of about 6-700.


And what all is to be included in that price?

What is more important to you-quality or loudness?

Is that 3K after you sell your current gear or in addition to.

A limited budget means something has to "give".
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Tom Corley on August 31, 2009, 09:36:41 pm
Tonal quality comes first.I don't want to be just loud. Volume without fidelity is just a mess. I plan on keeping my current gear. If need be I would sell it to augment the $3,000.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Duncan McLennan on August 31, 2009, 10:07:16 pm
So do you need to keep your current gear in addition to the new purchases or not?

Basically what I think you need to get at is WHY do you want to make a change, and what exactly are you trying to achieve.

If you have enough volume for the gigs you are doing, but don't have enough sound quality, sell the EON tops and replace them, maybe with something like the MRX515 or SRX715.

If the sound quality is good enough for your needs, but you need more volume, look into getting more speakers.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Tom Corley on August 31, 2009, 10:14:44 pm
The tops are adequate the subs, however, are not getting it done. I feel the system is over matched at times. The biggest challenge is the low end at high volume. I am not getting tight bass at all. I am using a Rane TTM57 mixer with a 4 channel Mackie board to better control the high end as well as to get more head room. But in the end I am concerned that the problem lies elsewhere.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Duncan McLennan on August 31, 2009, 10:55:49 pm
Well then if you're not happy with the bottom end, I think a sub upgrade would be the obvious next step.  

You seem to like JBL, and the SRX 718 is a very well respected sub on these forums.  If you keep your eyes open for used or B-stock gear you could probably get a pair of 718s and an iTech to power them for within your budget.

Also keep in mind that what you hear as the bottom end not sounding good may actually be the bottom end of the EON cabinets, not just the subs.  An upgrade to the top boxes might clean up the midbass and improve the 'punch'.

The sale of the MRX subs, the EONS and the XTi amp should be enough to buy some used/B-stock 712s or 715s that will help with the top end as well.  Put tops on one side, subs on the other side of your new iTech.

At least that's what I would do for a small, super portable JBL rig for recorded music.

What are you using as a crossover between your tops and subs now?
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Tom Corley on August 31, 2009, 11:11:32 pm
I bought JBL because of force of habit. I used to use Cerwin Vega speakers in the old days. But I am open to any suggestions. I am running from the preamp in my mixer to the Mackie board. Do you think I would gain a lot by using some other outboard gear.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Bob Kenton on August 31, 2009, 11:51:54 pm
Just a side note regarding your current sub set up. Your MRX518's have a 4ohm rating, you should be running your amp stereo (one amp side per sub) instead of bridged.



Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: dustin Bradley on August 31, 2009, 11:59:06 pm
shouldn't this topic be in lab lounge? Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Duncan McLennan on September 01, 2009, 12:17:07 am
For small DJ rigs I think the JBL stuff is great.  Mostly because of their very high power handling, low weight, and small size.

Bob is absolutely right though.  You definitely should not have the amp bridged into both subs.  That's a 2Ω total load, which is equivalent to a 1Ω load on each amp channel.  I'm surprised the subs are working at all if that's actually how they're hooked up.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Andy Peters on September 01, 2009, 01:47:36 am
dustin Bradley wrote on Mon, 31 August 2009 20:59

shouldn't this topic be in lab lounge? Rolling Eyes


It should be in the Basement, along with every other DJ post.

-a
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Tom Corley on September 01, 2009, 03:48:20 am
This is my first time using this site. I will in the future post in the baesment if that is the proper protocol. Thank you all for your insight and information.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-Which brings up another point
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 01, 2009, 07:50:25 am
Duncan McLennan wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 00:17


Bob is absolutely right though.  You definitely should not have the amp bridged into both subs.  That's a 2Ω total load, which is equivalent to a 1Ω load on each amp channel.  I'm surprised the subs are working at all if that's actually how they're hooked up.


That brings up another point.  Is the OP SURE he is running the bridged amp PROPERLY?  ie loudspeakers hooked between the two + (hot) terminals and nothing hooked to the - or gnd terminals.

Yes, you are totally correct in the fact that if he is doing that he is loading down the amp way to much, and that could be causing all sorts of problems with the sound.

The other is that that if all he did was flip the bridge switch and hook the subs up normally, he is cancelling out a huge hunk of his bass-and that is contributing to his poor sound quality.

Either way-he needs to change something-BEFORE he goes out and jsut buys new gear.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-Which brings up another point
Post by: Duncan McLennan on September 01, 2009, 10:22:34 am
Ivan Beaver wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 07:50

The other is that that if all he did was flip the bridge switch and hook the subs up normally, he is cancelling out a huge hunk of his bass-and that is contributing to his poor sound quality.


I had thought about asking that too... figured the crossover question was enough for now.

So what are you using for crossover, and can you describe exactly how the subs are hooked up?  Like what cables, what amplifier setting, etc.  As Ivan said, If you set the amp to bridge mode, then just hooked one sub up to each channel, you've inverted the polarity of one loudspeaker, and you're canceling all the bottom end.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Mike Palmer on September 01, 2009, 12:16:32 pm
IF you want serious Bass

TRY KV2 EX or Es series
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Jordan Wolf on September 01, 2009, 12:49:21 pm
Tom Corley wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 03:48

This is my first time using this site. I will in the future post in the baesment if that is the proper protocol. Thank you all for your insight and information.

Some (many?) people, on this site have a severe dislike for DJs due to bad past experiences with them.  The Lab Lounge is the right place to post and is a great source of information - it may even cause you to rethink the way you look at your sound system.

Regardless of what opinions the people on this forum have about DJs, I hope you can learn from the information here and also others' knowledge and experiences so that you won't become one of those DJs that the sound guys curse at under their breath.

Welcome and don't forget to check out the Study Hall
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Tom Corley on September 01, 2009, 02:55:06 pm
Thank you. I am always looking to learn from others "best practice". Playing music is only half the battle. I did get the distinct impression that my questions were rubbing some the wrong way. With the knowledge base on this site I hope those of you that are extremely informed will have patience with those of us that have room to grow.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Tom Corley on September 01, 2009, 02:59:08 pm
That is rather harsh. If you have information that would be helpful why not share it. I am capable of comprehending what you say. Each one should teach one. If not, others will be reluctant to ask what you think are elementary questions and will continue to be uninformed.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-Which brings up another point
Post by: Tom Corley on September 01, 2009, 04:12:23 pm
I hook up both speakon's to the red terminal's. The Crown 4000i has an internal bridged mono setting.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-Which brings up another point
Post by: Tom Corley on September 01, 2009, 04:22:16 pm
I use speakon's connected to the red + terminal's on the amp. In the back of the amp the connections are piggybacked on the red+ terminals. Lastly the Crown 4000I has a bridged mono setting I have that intialized as my setting.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 01, 2009, 08:57:00 pm
Hi Tom-

I'll re-ask the question "how do you send signals to the XTI and Eons?"  Specifically I'm looking for a crossover or DSP.

The use of another mixer "for headroom" strikes me as odd.  I suspect you don't have Enough Rig for the Gig
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-Which brings up another point
Post by: Scott Hibbard on September 01, 2009, 09:19:37 pm
Hi Tom,

Welcome to the forum.  I hope I am reading your post correctly here.  You have the XTi4000 internally set for bridged-mono but then you mentioned "I hook up both speakon's to the red terminals". Does this imply you have a 2 banana-to-speakon connectors piggy-backed across the red-terminals?  If so, that's ok but make sure channel 2 level on the amp is down/off/not in use.

But if you have the amp set to bridged mono and using the Speakon connectors (not the binding posts), you should only be using the channel 1 speakon and should only have amp channel 1 gain up.  Channel 2 speakon should not have anything connected, and channel 2 level on the amp should not be used.

As other's have mentioned, your sub's nominal impedance is 4 ohms.  I would suggest taking the amp out of bridged mode, put it in parallel mono mode or stereo) and connect one speaker to each Speakon.  That amp is ~ 1,200w/4 ohms stereo which is slightly over the PRG rating of 1,000watts.

If you've tried all the above and still not happy, can you share what (if any) external crossover or DSP is used?  Do you have any HPF engaged?

Again welcome.
ScottH

Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: Tom Corley on September 01, 2009, 09:45:30 pm
I do events from sweet sixteens to retirement parties. My program material runs the gammit from Def Lep to Rap and Frank Sinatra. I am currently not using an external crossover. By head room I mean I get more volume/control by adding the Mackie board. I can can better tailor the sound. I can remove the mid/highs from the channel dedicated to the subs and trim the mids/highs so the don't sound too colored.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-Which brings up another point
Post by: Tom Corley on September 01, 2009, 09:52:32 pm
Yes there is a banana connection at the amp end of my speakon's and that is where I have them piggy backed. I am not using an external crossover at this time. I go from mixer to the Mackie 802-VLZ3 the to my Crown then to my subs.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-There's the problem!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 01, 2009, 11:13:36 pm
Tom Corley wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 21:45

I do events from sweet sixteens to retirement parties. My program material runs the gammit from Def Lep to Rap and Frank Sinatra. I am currently not using an external crossover. By head room I mean I get more volume/control by adding the Mackie board. I can can better tailor the sound. I can remove the mid/highs from the channel dedicated to the subs and trim the mids/highs so the don't sound too colored.


Then the FIRST thing you need to buy is a proper crossover.

That will do more for your sound than anything else people would suggest-at your price point.

Spend some more money paying somebody to properly setup your sound system.

If you buy a DSP, you can get even more improvement-IF setup properly.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-There's the problem!
Post by: Tom Corley on September 01, 2009, 11:19:30 pm
I thank you all for your insight. I will be the DJ with the cerebral sound system. I will look into a DSP as well as a crossover. Are there any brands that you can recommend? Thanks again in advance DJ TOM
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-There's the problem!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 01, 2009, 11:48:32 pm
Tom-

The good news is you have HALF the crossover functions you need inside the XTI.  The bad news is you still need the other half.

Buy a crossover, send the low output (set around 100Hz to start) to the XTI (ignoring it's internal processing) and the high output(s) to the Eons.  A decent basic analog crossover (dbx) is $150 or so.  You can also purchase a "loudspeaker DSP" like dbx DriveRack (PA, 260, 280, etc), BBE, Peavey, Ashly, Xilica, BSS, Klark Teknik, EV/Dynacord and several others.  All are vastly more complicated & more expensive (but more effective) than simple analog crossovers.

If you re-purpose the Eons, you can get another XTI and use the internal processing in conjunction with your existing XTI to form a crossover, and the new XTI can power your new top boxes. Smile

It's possible that simply getting a proper crossover in your rig (with some help, perhaps, to guide you in setup) will fix much of what you have problems with right now.  How satisfied you remain is harder to predict.  Loudspeakers have improved significantly in the last 10 years. Wink

Tim "Gear Acquisition Syndrome Counselor" Mc

ps.  We have a couple of general guides to gear that are often repeated.  "The wrong piece of gear at the right price, is still the wrong piece of gear."  It works nicely with "Buy once, cry once."

pss.  This is your lucky day.  What you need is in the limo.. er Marketplace. http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/48767/143/  This is EXACTLY the configuration for your setup.  Stereo in, summed LF output for your mono sub, the HF outputs to drive your Eons left & right.

psssssssssss.  That crossover has been sold, but you can find them at any dbx dealer (try local!) or new & used on FleaBay.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-There's the problem!
Post by: Tom Corley on September 02, 2009, 03:36:02 pm
I will look into a proper crossover. Thank you for your insight. Perhaps I can, in some small way, change the perception of DJ's on the Pro Forum. I am looking to be a more than competent sound man. With input like this I am on my way to a more comprehensive sound system. I will repost with the outcome. Again thanks to all who had the patience to respond. DJ TOM.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-There's the problem!
Post by: Jordan Wolf on September 02, 2009, 04:04:23 pm
Tom Corley wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 15:36

...Perhaps I can, in some small way, change the perception of DJ's on the Pro Forum...

The actual problem does not lie in this forum.  It lies with your fellow DJs.  I think the BEST way you can help that cause is to educate them about the proper way(s) to setup and run their rigs (be it a simple DJ mixer or a complete PA system).  That solves the actual problem instead of fixing a symptom of it.

Just realize that some people don't want to listen and there's usually nothing you can do but say, "I told you so".
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-There's the problem!
Post by: Tom Corley on September 02, 2009, 04:09:14 pm
Point taken. This forum is replete with knowledgeable people. Initially I felt a since of foreboding from some of the respondents. I guess their past experiences with DJ's was not good. I for one am not going to hold back when I learn a best practice. If we share information it will build a better community of sound/DJ professionals.
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-There's the problem!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 02, 2009, 04:09:55 pm
Tom Corley wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 14:36

I will look into a proper crossover. Thank you for your insight. Perhaps I can, in some small way, change the perception of DJ's on the Pro Forum. I am looking to be a more than competent sound man. With input like this I am on my way to a more comprehensive sound system. I will repost with the outcome. Again thanks to all who had the patience to respond. DJ TOM.

You help already.  You're not a raving loony spouting market-speak or DJ Drivel.  Move to the front of the line.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE-There's the problem!
Post by: Tom Corley on September 02, 2009, 04:10:39 pm
Thanks Tim
Title: Re: LOOKING TO UPGRADE
Post by: David Sweet on November 18, 2010, 06:15:15 pm
I'm biased (as QSC is a client) but the feedback I'm getting on K Series and KW Series is those lines are have superior high fidelity anywhere near their price and portability range. Sound quality: Though not their intended use, I know of two recording studios who use K's for far field (and really loud) playback. Suggest you audition k10s or k12s with one or two kw181 subs. Try to audition them against the other brands recommended here with music you know well. Here's a young DJ talking about his experience with the tops: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgqCjqu9FQE and another with some explanation of the built in mixer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0Owej0DXOw&feature=relat ed