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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => Road Test FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: Jeff Permanian on October 12, 2007, 10:23:39 am

Title: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on October 12, 2007, 10:23:39 am
Hello Everyone

We are proud to announce that the Growler well be going on a road test. This will give everyone the opportunity to see, hear and use the Growlers as well as compare them to other subwoofers. Please contact us to schedule your Growler experience (included your contact information and address). Because to the large number of people wanting to road test I would like to those partisipating I would like everyone to have the growlers two weekends, recieving on thursay/friday and shipping them back out the monday/tuesday of the following week.

Thank you,

Jeff Permanian

Jeff@jtrspeakers.com

Tentative Schedule:
East Coast
1)Evan Kirkendall MD.
2)Brian Bolly MD.
3)Dave Dermont
4)E. Lee Dickinson VA.
5)Gian P. Portanova NY.
6)Mike Butler CT.


Central
Josh Oswald AL.

West coast
Rick Kreuzer AZ.
Robert Kenton CA.
Tony Mirador CA.

Dec 15th Evan Kirkendall Shootout!   http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/27921/0/0/1 6715/

Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Phil LaDue on October 12, 2007, 11:01:44 am
Hey Jeff, do they come with amps?
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on October 12, 2007, 11:19:34 am
Unfortunately, we are not able to send amplifier with them. Please use a maximum of 1000 watts @ 8ohms to each as recommended.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Phil LaDue on October 12, 2007, 11:27:30 am
Nuts, no mains if I bridge the 2402 to get that much power.

Hmmm..wasn't there a Powersoft Road Test going on?
Twisted Evil
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on October 12, 2007, 01:38:46 pm
Also, the Growlers on Road Test are not for sale and will continue on the Road Test from start to finish.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 12, 2007, 03:46:10 pm
Jeff Permanian wrote on Fri, 12 October 2007 13:38

Also, the Growlers on Road Test are not for sale and will continue on the Road Test from start to finish.


I guess Evan will be the final person to test them Laughing   That should put an end to them.

Sorry I couldn't resist Very Happy
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on October 12, 2007, 04:26:04 pm
 Laughing
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Bob Kenton on October 12, 2007, 04:35:02 pm
Email sent! I would love to give them a listen! I do sound for a monthly outreach that has several bands performing and I can set up a pair of SRX718's to compare them with.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 12, 2007, 05:01:48 pm
Evan would have to work much harder, with bigger amps than the Powersoft K10 we had in NYC...  I don't think he can pull that off yet.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Mike Kivett on October 12, 2007, 05:26:52 pm
We may sign up too.  We could compare them to our Labs, Yorkville subs and maybe some SB850s.  I'll check tonight...
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Steve Hurt on October 12, 2007, 09:23:08 pm
Let me know if the triple 12's ever go on road test.  
I'd love to try them.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on October 14, 2007, 01:17:19 pm
Tim McCulloch wrote on Fri, 12 October 2007 17:01

Evan would have to work much harder, with bigger amps than the Powersoft K10 we had in NYC...  I don't think he can pull that off yet.

Tim Mc


Ive got a PL6.0 I could bridge into the pair. Twisted Evil


But, I'd be glad to test drive your subs. Smile




Evan


[Edited for Content]
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 14, 2007, 01:53:21 pm
They took 2500 watts each in NYC, with a track that had sine waves below the cutoff of the Growler.  They did not blow up or smoke out.  EM Acoustics 215 box let out magic smoke at the rep's request to drive it til it quit.

If you use the recommended HPF, I think the Growlers would survive such powering on the type of program you typically have.

You will have to work harder.

Have fun, good luck, and don't blow stuff up.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 14, 2007, 02:10:49 pm
Tim McCulloch wrote on Sun, 14 October 2007 13:53


Have fun, good luck, and don't blow stuff up.

Tim Mc

What's the fun in that Laughing  I have blown up literally hundreds of loudspeakers back in my rental days.  A lot can be learned from that.  Ie: what caused it to fail, what could be done to stop the failure etc.

Of course that was back when loudspeakers were less robust, but then again we didn't have the power we have available today.  But we were trying to get just as loud Very Happy
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on October 17, 2007, 12:51:07 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sun, 14 October 2007 12:17


But, I'd be glad to test drive your subs. Smile

Evan



Looks like you'll be first up. Dave Dermont is giving up his dibs however you have to give the growlers to him next.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on October 17, 2007, 01:21:31 pm
Jeff Permanian wrote on Wed, 17 October 2007 12:51

Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sun, 14 October 2007 12:17


But, I'd be glad to test drive your subs. Smile

Evan



Looks like you'll be first up. Dave Dermont is giving up his dibs however you have to give the growlers to him next.




Thats fine with me. Now let's make some noise! Twisted Evil



Evan
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Babcock on October 17, 2007, 01:58:19 pm
How many Growlers are going out on this Road test?  I look forward to seeing Evan's feedback given his ongoing subwoofer quest!
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on October 17, 2007, 05:53:25 pm
Jeff Babcock wrote on Wed, 17 October 2007 12:58

How many Growlers are going out on this Road test?  I look forward to seeing Evan's feedback given his ongoing subwoofer quest!


The road test is for a pair of growlers
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Bob Kenton on October 18, 2007, 01:50:57 am
Im still very interested but Im about as far west as I can be without getting salt water in my shoes. Laughing
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on October 21, 2007, 09:56:29 pm
Jeff Permanian wrote on Fri, 12 October 2007 10:23


Tentative Schedule:
East Coast
1)Evan Kirkendall
2)Dave Dermont
3)Brian Bolly



I'm south of Evan in Richmond, VA. Right now, I'm running 4 VRX918s. We also have in the shop TX9s, and a variety of older single 15 and 18 subs (JBL, Yamaha, Klipsch). Power options range from QSC PLX series to Crown XS to Crest CA-9; no fance DSP amps in the shop yet. We have a no-name analog crossover, as well as DBX 260 and Behringer 2496.

Gigs range from band to corporate to DJ, and we are in the market for new (more) subs. I am currently leaning towards JBL MR518S or 528S to match the drivers in my VRX, but have heard such good things about the Growlers, over and over again, that I'd like to give them a shot if there is an available slot.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on October 21, 2007, 11:36:02 pm
Me too! (if Evan hasn't cooked them!  Laughing )
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on October 22, 2007, 07:01:30 pm
will the growlers come with pole mounts?

I ground stack majority of the time.  Most of the venues I am at, don't have a raise stage more than 6".
I normaly run a U15/UCS1 combo, 1 per side.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Cosmas Bain on October 31, 2007, 10:32:19 am
will someone be willing to grant me access into listening to the pair if ever the make it to the ny/nj metro area?

I will be willing to travel by train or drive out within 50 miles, to have a demo.

I will be checking this thread closley
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on October 31, 2007, 07:07:21 pm
Were are going to try to get the growlers to as many people as possible. I'm even thinking of sending out two pairs, one to the east and one to the west.

The road test will be the 2008 model Growlers that is smoother and has more lowend.

Teaser:
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j123/racingxtc7/Growler-08.jpg
Yes, thats +1db/-1db to 46.5hz outdoor half space
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Mark Hobbs on October 31, 2007, 08:12:37 pm
Jeff Permanian wrote on Wed, 31 October 2007 18:07

The road test to will 2008 model Growlers.....


Please reword...
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Steve Hurt on October 31, 2007, 10:27:06 pm
Can you give us "old" Growler owners an idea of the difference between new and old Growlers.  (Be great if you could lay the plots  over each other to make it as obvious as possible)

Also, is it cabinet design or driver that you've changed.

Thanks
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on November 01, 2007, 11:56:50 am
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j123/racingxtc7/JTR_Growler_2-8V_1m.jpg
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Babcock on November 01, 2007, 04:38:47 pm
I'm glad I've held off on getting Growlers until now... woohoo for the new 2008 version.  Jeff, do you know when this road test is going to start?
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on November 02, 2007, 05:19:26 pm
Who can make it out to Evan's Shootout?
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on November 06, 2007, 04:11:19 am
Jeff,
 I'll be there bringing the UCS1's.  I would also like to be added to the list of testers.  Timing is not important.
Title: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 06, 2007, 04:58:36 pm
My good 'ol friends in Brown dropped off some new toys for me today. A nice shiny pair of JTR Growlers, ready for roadtest. They look so young, new and innocent. It's a shame they dont know about all the fun they are about to see. Twisted Evil

Anyway, I unboxed them and right away I was surprised how small they were. They remind me a lot of the Yorkville LS608's. Very easy to move around, and light! However, one thing Im not liking aready is the lack of any handles on the sides. It's a little awkward to carry alone, at least until I figure out a better way...

Anyway, here's a few glamor shots:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e194/HarfordSound/3.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e194/HarfordSound/2.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e194/HarfordSound/1-2.jpg

So, of course I had to fire them up. I cant just let them sit around going to waste.

I grabbed a few cables, opened up the amp rack and got ready to make some noise.

Setup was as follows:
-Ipod for playback
-01v96 for mixer
-DR260 for processing
-PL6.0 for power(1 per channel)

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e194/HarfordSound/4-1.jpg


I started off light with some Miles Davis. Right away I noticed they had a very smooth sound. And, they went surprisingly low. I had the DR260's LPF @ 40hz, with an 18db slope and they seemed very solid all the way down to 40hz. The upright bass sounded very good through them.

Next up was some rock. I wanted to see what they can do, so I pulled out my Mest and played the intro to Cadillac. For you guys who have heard the song before, you know what this intro is like. PL6.0 was solid -10 and it was pretty sweet. Smile The low end was quite impressive, as everything in my garage began to rattle off the shelves. Laughing

Then came some rap/techno. They handled the sweeps in the songs very well, and there didnt seem to be any dead spots in their response. I was very impressed.

EQ wise, it only took a little bit of tweaking to really get them thumping. For music playback, a 3dB boost @ 45hz, Q2 seemed to do the trick.

Tomorrow is their first gig, I cant wait. Smile






Evan
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Adam Whetham on December 06, 2007, 09:23:55 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Thu, 06 December 2007 15:58

Next up was some rock. I wanted to see what they can do, so I pulled out my Mest and played the intro to Cadillac. For you guys who have heard the song before, you know what this intro is like. PL6.0 was solid -10 and it was pretty sweet. Smile The low end was quite impressive, as everything in my garage began to rattle off the shelves. Laughing

Evan


I only wish i could use that song more often to kick some bass out... great album also Razz That sub synth on that track is stupid nuts.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on December 06, 2007, 10:39:27 pm
Adam Whetham wrote on Thu, 06 December 2007 21:23


I only wish i could use that song more often to kick some bass out... great album also Razz That sub synth on that track is stupid nuts.



Well the new Avenged Sevenfold album is susposed to have some Deep 808 sounds that where added by a HipHop producer.  I have yet played the CD on something bigger than the $15 desktop speakers.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 09, 2007, 03:26:04 pm
2 gigs down, 1 more to go. Ill write a longer review later, but for now I will just highlight some stuff from each night.

Friday night:
Small church hall, 300 cap, about 90 showed up. 5 bands. Room is very LIVE and it gets LOUD in there. During sound check the bass was not there. I was very disappointed. Then of course, I noticed that only one sub was on.... Forgot to twist the speakon in all the way. Bass came to life. Up front, they remind me of mini EAW SB1000z's. They go very low and hit pretty hard, up front. In the back of the room the bass was average at best. I was driving the piss out of the PL6.0 to get enough thump. I was into the limiters all night trying to get them to keep up with the SLS920s, who were barely hitting -20. I was around 103-106dBA @ FOH.

Saturday night:
Grange hall, 300 cap, about 200 showed up. 5 bands. Room was dead and sounded pretty good. My problem tonight was the subs walking around. They would not stay in place. I had to ratchet strap them together and strap them to the amp rack. They need rubber feet so they wont slide around as much. Again, I was hammering the PL6.0 trying to keep up. I was a little quieter, only around 100dBA. The subs do sound good, but I need 4 to keep up with 2 SLS920's.

Also another thing that is bothering me is the plastic corners. THEY SUCK. All of them are already cracked and they do not hold up well. I highly suggest metal corners instead.

So to sum it up:
Pros:
-Deep response
-Hit good up front
-LIGHT!
-Easy for one person to move

Cons:
-Cant keep up with SLS920's
-Lack a lot of output(still kick good for their size)
-Corners crack
-Slide around when you crank them

More later...





Evan
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Jim Duyck on December 09, 2007, 05:27:54 pm
did you honestly think 2 of them would work for gigs like that, though???? Very Happy

i also told jeff we'd pass on the corners since i felt like construction/coating was definitely up to par with other gear...and i guessed correctly and don't miss them...
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Vic Cowles on December 09, 2007, 10:17:29 pm
I agree,  you needed two per side to run that gig.  The Growlers couple very well. We just ran two under a SLS 960 per side.  I increased the gain on the subs from +2 to +4.  This is compared to running JBL 4733's on top. The Growlers performed very well. Running PLX 3402's to them.  I've only ran one Growler per side once. I was a very small room and a nasty load in.  Was not happy with the output. Of course, I'm use to running two or four per side.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Kent Clasen on December 09, 2007, 10:47:27 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sun, 09 December 2007 20:26

 I was into the limiters all night trying to get them to keep up with the SLS920s, who were barely hitting -20. I was around 103-106dBA @ FOH.

Again, I was hammering the PL6.0 trying to keep up. I was a little quieter, only around 100dBA. The subs do sound good, but I need 4 to keep up with 2 SLS920's.

Evan


Evan, I have used the Growlers and thought they were quite efficient (though obviously not as efficient as most mid/hi boxes) and sounded very good, though I am a dealer for them.

Given the levels you state above "106dBa @ FOH", you don't mention the distance to FOH, so I will assume an easy distance of 100'.

The Growlers are around 100db/1w/1m, so you mention a PL6.0, were you running it in stereo mode?  If so, you are around 1100w at 8ohms (which is properly powered), so that would be around 101dBa at 100' with 1 cab, 1 amp channel. Add another cab and amp channel and you gain 6dB, so ~107dBa without room gain, etc, etc.  So basically this is what the cabinet is designed to do.  If you need more bass or headroom, you will need more cabs/amps (as Vic stated).  

At 899.00 list, they are hard to beat for size & output IMO.

Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on December 10, 2007, 09:11:28 am
Hey Evan!

Just curious... where do you cross-over the 920s at to the Growlers since the 920s drop of higher?

Thanks!
Phil!
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on December 10, 2007, 02:21:30 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sun, 09 December 2007 20:26

My problem tonight was the subs walking around. They would not stay in place. I had to ratchet strap them together and strap them to the amp rack. They need rubber feet so they wont slide around as much.


Evan- You'll find this is a common problem with horn-loaded subs. Tons of output from a small light box makes the subs want to stroll around the room. My Bassmaxx Trips have a hard time staying in one place, and my Danley TH-115's will move around even if you strap two together. I suggest Growler owners who are trying to run center-clustered subs get some rubber matting to sit them on. Rubber feet are just going to get in the way or get torn off, especially if one is using the cabinets in different combinations.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 10, 2007, 10:01:04 pm
Phil Lewandowski wrote on Mon, 10 December 2007 09:11

Hey Evan!

Just curious... where do you cross-over the 920s at to the Growlers since the 920s drop of higher?

Thanks!
Phil!



Growlers are 40-100hz. 18dB and 24dB butterworth. Community's start at 120hz, 24db butterworth.




Evan
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Robert Lunceford on December 11, 2007, 11:20:51 am
What are the physical dimensions and weight of the Growlers?

Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Aaron McQueen on December 11, 2007, 11:27:38 am
Robert Lunceford wrote on Tue, 11 December 2007 11:20

What are the physical dimensions and weight of the Growlers?



http://www.jtrspeakers.com/growler.html
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Mike Christy on December 13, 2007, 01:38:19 pm
Ya, Ive got foam padding under mine for hard floors, keeps them from walking and gravel from sticking/digging into the line-x. It doubles as trailer packing material between cabs. No corners on my, just naked.

I'm impressed they pass the Evan TRX test, but I think Im gonna keep my RMX2450s wired up to mine, they seem a very good match.
never had to clip them.

Update: I had a long drive home in the snow and thought about Evan's outing with the Growlers.

I don't believe you can simply throw speakers together and call it a system and expect it to perform to it's full potential.

My thoughts:

1 As a system both the tops and subs need to be "dialed in". You can simply crank the tops and expect the subs to keep up.

2 If the tops are very efficient compared to the subs, they most probably dont need as much gain as the subs. In other words you cant simply swap in another set of subs while leaving your tops gain the same and expect it to sound right.

2a. My experience shows that large linoleum floored halls EAT up bass.

3 Another sip of beer.. (that was a tough ride home thru the woods...) ah better, OK, if premise #1 and #2 are correct, then you need to start at the lowest common denominator, which is the max SPL you can get for the subs with the power you have. That means you need to back off the tops gain to match the subs.

4 No matter how large the room, your system is what it is, with the subs being the limiting factor, in this instance. Its not their fault, you simply need 2 more of them  - remember - those are only 500W 12" drivers in those cabinets, 4 cabinets for large hall would not be unreasonable, especially with those screaming tops.

Usually sub power and cabinet "density" is more than the mains, from my experience.

Glad Im not in a ditch,
Mike
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 13, 2007, 09:42:49 pm
Quote:


My thoughts:

1 As a system both the tops and subs need to be "dialed in". You can simply crank the tops and expect the subs to keep up.

2 If the tops are very efficient compared to the subs, they most probably dont need as much gain as the subs. In other words you cant simply swap in another set of subs while leaving your tops gain the same and expect it to sound right.




System was very much so "dialed in." I had the tops dialed back 10dB from the subs on the DR260 to balance things out. The PLX3002 was running signal lights, flickering -20 on louder parts, while the PL6.0 was into the limiters. Every kick hit was nearly clipping the subs, and the bass guitar had it pretty much solid at -20, sometimes even -10. I had the system properly delayed, crossed over and limited.

4 subs would probably be better, but I'll be passing on buying Growlers... I need something with a little more oomph. They would work well for weekend warriors with smaller tops though.


Evan
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Mike Christy on December 14, 2007, 05:11:01 am
That still sounds mismatched to me  Very Happy
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Steve Hurt on December 14, 2007, 07:33:38 am
Evan,

Are you passing on the Growlers because (in your opinion):

a) one Growler won't out-thump one 2 x 18?
or
b) two Growlers won't out-thump one 2 x 18?



(my opinion is: if it's "a", I agree, if it's "b", you definitely did something wrong)
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Vic Cowles on December 14, 2007, 10:35:37 am
I agree things still sound mismatched.  Can't remember where it is,  However, I A-B'd the Growlers with JBL 728's. (The Growlers won) I'm running Growlers with SLS 960's. Your $ is you $. Do what you want. Your comment that the Growlers are ok for weekend warrior with smaller tops is right. However, they are right for bigger systems as well.  I am always lusting for better gear.  Hence my upgrade from JBL 4733X tops to the Community's. However, I'm finally not looking for better subs.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Rob Spence on December 14, 2007, 11:24:49 am
I agree that only 2 won't keep up but I expect only 2 of many subs have that issue.

I have metal corners on mine. I would like rubber feet too I think. One problem I had early on when I stacked them on their sides was that the metal to metal corner contact buzzed like crazy. I dealt with it by puttting a pad between them. These days I have them side by side so isn't an issue.

I would like side handles like every other sub out there too.

I do like them though Smile
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 14, 2007, 11:31:57 am
Steve Hurt wrote on Fri, 14 December 2007 07:33

Evan,

Are you passing on the Growlers because (in your opinion):

a) one Growler won't out-thump one 2 x 18?
or
b) two Growlers won't out-thump one 2 x 18?



(my opinion is: if it's "a", I agree, if it's "b", you definitely did something wrong)


Hi Steve,
2 Growlers can outrun 1 QW218, but 2 QW218's win IMO. 4 Growlers, well, I dont know what would win there.

This weekend will be interesting. My money is on EAW SB1000z's right now, but who knows after tomorrow!



Evan
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Rob Spence on December 14, 2007, 11:33:02 am
If you are in to the limiters on a PL6 on only 2 subs, you have it turned up too loud. Two Growlers isn't enough rig for the gig for the kind of stuff you do. Note, no sub you have tried has been enough even with 4 of them so...

I have 4 Growlers and they do well even with 2 per side and even better all center clustered.

For what you do, I would think a 4 block per side would be sweet. Nice and modular too so for smaller gigs you can bring fewer.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 14, 2007, 11:36:30 am
Rob Spence wrote on Fri, 14 December 2007 11:33


For what you do, I would think a 4 block per side would be sweet. Nice and modular too so for smaller gigs you can bring fewer.



Rob,
The gigs I used them at were my "Smaller" gigs(>100 people), and they didnt cut it. I'd need 4 min for small shows, and probably 6 or 8 for larger gigs.




Evan
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Caleb Dick on December 14, 2007, 01:12:27 pm
If you look really, really close, there are some tiny letters in your posts.  There's a T,  and H,  a couple 1's, and a 5  Very Happy

Caleb


... or the upcoming TH-RODS, but not as scalable
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Steve Hurt on December 14, 2007, 02:09:31 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Fri, 14 December 2007 11:36


The gigs I used them at were my "Smaller" gigs(>100 people), and they didnt cut it. I'd need 4 min for small shows, and probably 6 or 8 for larger gigs.

Evan


I'm not a "95 db is too loud" kind of guy, but I have to say:

A PL6.0 II cliping into 2 growlers center coupled at a 100 person show not being loud enough to keep up with the tops  = you will be deaf soon.

At least you'll be able to "ring" in the New Year(s) w/tinitus!
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Steve Hurt on December 14, 2007, 02:30:11 pm
Noticed you say the room is 300 capacity.  
How big is the room?
Just trying to comprehend the SPL in front.


I do agree that:
2 Growlers is usually > one 2 x 18
but
two good 2 x 18 can be > 2 Growlers

(I also know that two 2 x 18's won't fit in my van  Smile   )
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 14, 2007, 02:32:08 pm
Steve Hurt wrote on Fri, 14 December 2007 13:09

Evan Kirkendall wrote on Fri, 14 December 2007 11:36


The gigs I used them at were my "Smaller" gigs(>100 people), and they didnt cut it. I'd need 4 min for small shows, and probably 6 or 8 for larger gigs.

Evan


I'm not a "95 db is too loud" kind of guy, but I have to say:

A PL6.0 II cliping into 2 growlers center coupled at a 100 person show not being loud enough to keep up with the tops  = you will be deaf soon.

At least you'll be able to "ring" in the New Year(s) w/tinitus!

I suspect that Evan is having trouble keeping up with stage levels, and since he has an issue with the output of the Growlers, I suspect that he has enough top boxes for the gig, but now sees how much LF it takes to keep up with them, AND get over the stage wash from the SVT god.

Some of you recall my fairly glowing reports of the Growlers at the NYC Sub Shoot last January.  I was impressed by how well they played, particularly for the size and weight.  I'm still impressed, but when the inevitable comparison questions came I was reluctant to answer as I don't use the subs most people who look at Growlers are using.  I also don't do the kinds of gigs Evan or most of the Lounge posters do.  But for the screamo emo things that seem to predominate rock at the moment, a pair of ANY small or MI sub will not be enough.  Getting over the SVT on stage, with the player's LF boosted 10dB will not be done even with 4 small subs no matter the room size.

TH-115s would be a good choice, I think.

Also, while we're talking about the MD listening event, I think folks should be very careful about trying to make comparisons to speakers not present.... as in, DON'T.  These types of listening events are only valid in that space, only among those products present and playing, and only valid with the program material used for the listening.  Thank you, please drive thru.. Wink

Have fun, good luck!

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Jeff Babcock on December 14, 2007, 02:34:58 pm
Evan and others, please be sure to update this growler thread with thoughts from the Maryland sub event so the growler road test info all stays in one place.  Looking forward to the results.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Mike Christy on December 14, 2007, 03:12:09 pm
Tim, thanks for clarifying what Evan's scenario may be, it makes much more sense now.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 14, 2007, 03:59:03 pm
Yep, Tim nailed it. Friday night was a very "live" room, and stage volume was around 101dBA, with no mics on. Just adding vocals put me up to around 105-107dBA. I was ~30' back, and had plugs in the whole night. Not fun...

Saturday night was a little better room, and I was only around 101dBA, @ 50'.






Evan
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Jim Duyck on December 14, 2007, 05:39:17 pm
It tis unfortunate that you couldn't have 4 for the road test...but my limited experience says that 4 Growlers > 2 JBL SR4719X's hands down (our own upgrade) and 4 Growlers on 2 RMX 2450's bridged mon > 2 JBL SRX728's on 2 PLX 3602's bridged mono (my church's setup) as well.

But I agree - you seem like the 4 per side kinda guy and with 2 Community's per side as well, I bet you could peel the paint off of whatever you wanted to.

You should talk to Jeff about a prototype that might be up your alley.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Richard Rajchel on December 15, 2007, 04:19:12 pm
I think one thing should certainly be noted in the review. you should compare apples to apples.

2 Growlers:

27600 Cubic Inches
~$1800 retail
200 lbs
2000 watts rated
4 Ohms

1 double 18(I picked JBL SRX728s here)

33300 Cubic Inches
~$1400 retail
166 lbs
3200 watts rated
4 Ohms

There should be no doubt that the 2 Growlers should beat the output of the JBLs.

Of course I'm nearing 40 and I'd rather take two trips with smaller subs than 1 trip with a monster double 18.


Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Mark Hobbs on December 16, 2007, 12:33:07 am
Richard Rajchel wrote on Sat, 15 December 2007 15:19


2 Growlers:

27600 Cubic Inches
~$1800 retail
200 lbs
2000 watts rated
4 Ohms

1 double 18(I picked JBL SRX728s here)

33300 Cubic Inches
~$1400 retail
166 lbs
3200 watts rated
4 Ohms

There should be no doubt that the 2 Growlers should beat the output of the JBLs.



How exactly do you come to that conclusion based on those specs?
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Richard Rajchel on December 16, 2007, 05:01:47 am
I didn't based on the specs listed. I did by the sensitivity specs on each manufacturers page. JBLs 98 dB 1w/1m according to JBLs data sheet. JTRs are 100 dB 1w/1m according to the specs on their web page.

The key though is that when you use 2 horn loaded cabs together they get a 6dB boost. So instead of 100 dB sensitivity they actually now have 106 dB as a pair.

Using my not-so-trusty brain to figure out that 1000 watts and 106 dB sensitivity comes out to 136 dB. Silly me...there's 2 cabinets, so they actually take 2000 watts...that puts the calculations at 139 dB...sorry about the mistake...it's 4 am.

The JBLs can handle 3200 watts program power, but any only 98 dB sensitivity it comes out to approximately 132 ish dB. I didn't do the exact math, so maybe it's 133, but it's in that neighborhood, and when you take in to account power compression...let's just say that 3200 watts could cook you a pretty thick steak, but 2000 might just cook a hamburger. All that wonderful power from your amps just warms the insides of your speaker cabinets...look here:

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwr-vs-eff.htm

edited for my bonehead forgetting that 2 growlers take 2000 watts
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Bennett Prescott on December 16, 2007, 11:57:56 am
Richard Rajchel wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 05:01

The key though is that when you use 2 horn loaded cabs together they get a 6dB boost. So instead of 100 dB sensitivity they actually now have 106 dB as a pair.

When you use ANY two cabinets together, within 1/4 wavelength of each other, and you also apply the same power to both of them, you get a 6dB increase in SPL. 3dB is from cabinet coupling, 3dB is from doubling the power (if you had an 8 ohm sub connected to an amplifier capable of delivering 1000 watts at 8 ohms, and you connect another identical sub to the same amp channel, the amplifier now provides 2000 watts into what is now a 4 ohm load to be "shared" by both subwoofers, so each still gets 1000 watts).
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Mark Hobbs on December 16, 2007, 02:59:40 pm
Richard Rajchel wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 04:01

I didn't based on the specs listed.


Let me get this straight....you list THOSE specs and make THAT statement yet the specs you listed have nothing to do with the statement you made.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Richard Rajchel on December 16, 2007, 05:00:50 pm
Bennett is correct. So 133 dB ish vs 133 dB ish. The 2 growlers are still significantly smaller in size than the JBLs and also take 2000 watts to do what it takes 3200 watts for the JBLs.

Of course without hearing them it's impossible to say which "sounds" better. My point was more to compare similar setups. It's silly to compare something more than twice the size that takes 50% more power to the Growler is all.

If Evan would normally use 2 of his QW218s that seems to me it would be a normal gig for 4 Growlers, and would likely be at least as loud using less power and a smaller size overall. The QWs have very similar stats to the JBLs I used for an example(99 dB sensitivity and 3200 watts program power)

For Mark's peace of mind here are the corresponding specs.

http://www.jblpro.com/srx700/PDF/JBL.SRX728S.pdf

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/growler.html

Next time I will be sure to include full documentation for your reading pleasure.

Edit for spelling...
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Jeff Permanian on December 20, 2007, 11:17:45 pm
So, who wound up with the growlers after the shootout?
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 21, 2007, 12:16:09 am
Jeff Permanian wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 23:17

So, who wound up with the growlers after the shootout?


They are sitting in Jim's shop currently.

Oh, and sorry I never called you back. I deleted your message and lost the paper where I wrote your number down. Sorry! Very Happy




Evan
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Josh Oswald on December 21, 2007, 12:17:09 am
Not me. Sad
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Jeff Permanian on January 04, 2008, 04:14:04 pm
Jim Bowersox has them, will put them through a few gigs, give them a writeup and then on to the next Road Tester.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Brad Gibson on January 07, 2008, 10:29:10 pm
If they come thru south Georgia I would love to tell you what I think of them.  I will even do a small shoot out with my 728's.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Jeff Babcock on January 24, 2008, 10:41:01 pm
Has Jim been testing these or is this road test stalled?
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Jeff Permanian on January 25, 2008, 03:31:48 pm
Jim has them ready to ship and is putting together his review. I'm waiting to hear back from the next person in line.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Cosmas Bain on January 28, 2008, 07:13:06 pm
when are they comming to the nj/ny area? or did i missed them?
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: sndguy (Joel Ashcraft) on February 13, 2008, 01:32:12 am
Jeff,

I am still hoping to get these down here to check them out.  
Let me know if they are heading this way anytime soon.

Thanks,
Joel
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Scott Smith on February 19, 2008, 05:53:37 pm
Brad Gibson wrote on Mon, 07 January 2008 22:29

If they come thru south Georgia I would love to tell you what I think of them.  I will even do a small shoot out with my 728's.

I would be very interested in the results.  I am still waiting to see how 2 Growler compare to (what should be considered equivelent) 1 SRX728.  

In other words:  2 Growlers vs 1 SRX728 (4ohm load vs 4ohm load)

If I can get the same output with 1/2 the power, then the Growlers would be a clear winner.  If there is a low frequency trade-off, then I would like to see those direct comparison results in db's, or a graph...and decide what is more important.

It's not hard to take db measurements...I typically measure cabs at 30hz, 40hz, 50hz, up to about 100hz.  The Growlers should be measured in pairs since this is their most practical use, and would compare cloesest to the SRX728's in this fashion.

If you want to compare a single Growler, then compare it to a single SRX718.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Vic Cowles on February 19, 2008, 11:04:46 pm
I did a comparison.  2  Growlers , 1 728.  Do a search.  The Growlers won.  Didn't have any graphs.  By the way, still haven't blown a Growler. Blew the HELL out of the JBHELLS
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Scott Smith on February 20, 2008, 11:50:47 am
Vic Cowles wrote on Tue, 19 February 2008 23:04

I did a comparison.  2  Growlers , 1 728.  Do a search.  The Growlers won.  Didn't have any graphs.  By the way, still haven't blown a Growler. Blew the HELL out of the JBHELLS

I missed your results...I will search.  I do have to say though, that I have some 70's dual 15 scoops that produce more spl at less power than the SRX728's as well...at 80hz.  Below 60hz...they lose.  Going low is not my personal objective for the material I play...but it is good to compare spl at specific frequencies as well.
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Jim Duyck on February 20, 2008, 07:16:07 pm
when doing an a-b test between a pair of Growlers and 1 728S, I didn't measure anything - but there's no question that when switching the speaker cable between the 2 setups back and forth on 1 PLX3602 in bridged mono running the same program material that the Growlers were significantly louder.  I wasn't maxing the amp or anything, but it was definitely turned up a good bit.  that was flat on the EQ and a HPF of 35 Hz and a LPF of 80 Hz, both 24dB/oct LR.  But lately we've been running our Growlers up to 90 Hz, where they're so much louder than our SR4733X's - it gives us more punch.  But JBL's recommended 80 Hz HPF on the 728S  sounds good to me - moving that spec up while experimenting resulted in poor sound from it.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 20, 2008, 07:53:45 pm
So, do we need to put the Growlers on a milk carton with the "have you seen me?" caption?

While I heard them last year at the NYC shootout, I'm interested in seeing how they've worked out for other folks.

And if there's room on the list, I'd like to be in the loop.  I've got a couple of smaller shows I might try them on.  I'll PM Sara if this is still on-going.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on February 20, 2008, 07:56:35 pm
Looks like Jim hasnt been following this thread. But, if you want them next, they are boxed up sitting in Jim's shop. Whoever wants them next, PM him to arrange pickup.




Evan
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on February 20, 2008, 11:52:40 pm
Not sure where I am on the list, but Jeff asked me for my address a few weeks ago...
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on February 26, 2008, 12:36:43 pm
Lee

The "Road Tester" ahead of you fell of the face of the planet so your next. Please Contact Jim Bowersox to arrange pick up.

Thank you,

Jeff
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Grant Conklin on April 28, 2008, 12:16:53 am
This road test seems to be stalled somewhere.  Need a jump start?
Grant
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on April 28, 2008, 09:26:32 am
I have been waiting for them for months. I have offered to pay for shipping with my fedex account, I've even been sent FedEX tracking numbers that have been stalled at "package information transmitted to fedex" for 10 days now.

So, I dunno.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on May 06, 2008, 03:12:18 pm
Its been 6 months since the growlers started the road test and they haven't even made it to the second tester yet. The invoice for the two growlers is being mailed out and the road test being cancelled.

My sincere apologies to all those who wanted to participate in this road test.

Jeff Permanian
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Josh Oswald on May 06, 2008, 03:43:37 pm
Bummer. Sad
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on May 12, 2008, 03:32:02 pm
So everyone knows, the speakers finally made it to me on Friday and Jeff has asked me to go ahead and give them a run. I was busy this weekend and haven't opened them yet, but I'll start putting them through their paces this week!
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Quenton Haynes on May 12, 2008, 09:45:02 pm
Lee,
  What day will you be testing the Growlers? I would like to stop by and check them out.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on May 13, 2008, 07:59:37 am
I'll do a warehouse test tomorrow. Was going to do it today but I have to roll down to Petersburg to check on an installation.  Anyone in Richmond, PM me your free time and I'll come up with some sort of schedule. Quenton, so far I've heard from you and Tim Tyler. I have a meeting from 1 to 3, but anytime after that.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Mike Kivett on May 13, 2008, 10:01:21 am
Wow, a threatened invoice did the trick?  

Will have to remember that one...  Laughing
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Cosmas Bain on May 13, 2008, 10:46:25 am
who's next in line? i will gladly help with shipping if someone is in the newark n/j or the 3 boroughs in nyc.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Babcock on May 13, 2008, 02:34:44 pm
Wow, nice to see this road test is alive again, it was getting ridiculous, glad Jeff took action to get it moving again.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on May 13, 2008, 02:52:33 pm
4:00PM at the AVP warehouse, mini shootout against whatever we have lying around. PM or call me for details.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on May 15, 2008, 09:01:37 pm
An update for those of you playing along:

When I received the Growlers, two corners were split pretty violently, indicating some transportation trauma. We couldn't get much performance out of the pair, and the cracked speaker gave up the smoke right as we pushed them past 100db at 15'.  I feel bad about cooking it, but I do think it was damaged on its way here.

Jeff seems to agree with me as he is sending out a new driver, which I will slap in before taking these guys on a gig.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on May 15, 2008, 09:09:05 pm
E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Thu, 15 May 2008 21:01

An update for those of you playing along:

When I received the Growlers, two corners were split pretty violently, indicating some transportation trauma. We couldn't get much performance out of the pair, and the cracked speaker gave up the smoke right as we pushed them past 100db at 15'.  I feel bad about cooking it, but I do think it was damaged on its way here.

Jeff seems to agree with me as he is sending out a new driver, which I will slap in before taking these guys on a gig.



Pictures; I've got to see one...

I know the plastic corners where cracked from the cold moving around.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Mike Pyle on May 15, 2008, 09:24:15 pm
ANY heavy cabinet needs to have substantial corner protection when it is packed and shipped, especially with the package carriers, UPS being the absolute worst offender. Their poor performance exceeds mere negligence, reaching well into the realm of malicious stupidity.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jim Duyck on May 15, 2008, 11:04:28 pm
don't forget to check for air leaks in the sealed chamber!!!
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on May 15, 2008, 11:08:44 pm
E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Thu, 15 May 2008 21:01

An update for those of you playing along:

When I received the Growlers, two corners were split pretty violently, indicating some transportation trauma. We couldn't get much performance out of the pair, and the cracked speaker gave up the smoke right as we pushed them past 100db at 15'.  I feel bad about cooking it, but I do think it was damaged on its way here.

Jeff seems to agree with me as he is sending out a new driver, which I will slap in before taking these guys on a gig.


If the cab is cracked, make sure you seal it back up!




Evan
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on May 16, 2008, 08:59:12 am
Yeah. It's just cracked down at the mouth of the horn, so I don't think it's going to play a part in driver over-excursion or anything. Here come the pics.

index.php/fa/15895/0/

index.php/fa/15896/0/

These show the two corners, what I call "bottom front" if the horn mouth is down.

Here's the mini shootout:

index.php/fa/15897/0/

From L to R:

JBL VRX918S, Growlers, Yamaha SW118, Yorkville LS608.

Unfortunately we didn't get good performance from the growlers because, as mentioned, the driver blew as soon as we tried to crank them at all. One think I'll say, this is the first time I've ever put my SW118s on a "good" amplifier, and they sure sounded better than they ever have before.

Rule number 1 in subwoofer land? Power, power, power.

Everyone was also impressed with the SX300s which, in my opinion, are a real sleeper of a cabinet. Super durable, good quality, great loudness. They really come alive when they have enough power.

I'll repeat the test when I have a new driver for the JTRs.

Hey, another thing that leads me to believe the growler was bad... notice the strap. ONE of them was walking all around, the other didn't budget. It just wasn't performing.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on May 16, 2008, 09:00:01 am
Hmm. Those first images showed up in Preview.  

index.php/fa/15898/0/
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on May 16, 2008, 09:00:32 am
index.php/fa/15899/0/
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jim Duyck on May 16, 2008, 09:17:02 am
dang!!!  that's some serious smacking around!!!  i opted for no corners - i think it looks a lot cleaner and more professional that way.  not to mention i felt like the 18mm birch ply + Line X coating would be plenty strong - and it has been.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 16, 2008, 09:52:01 am
I would be concerned with the break and how it unloads the horn.  If there is an air path from the outside world to the horn in the middle of the path somewhere-as I suspect there is now, then it will not perform properly.

Not so much from an overexcursion problem, but rather a complete "detuning" of the horn.

In regards to the driver going bad, I suspect the previous user pushed it just to the failing point (let most of the smoke out), and you gave it its last breath.

If one driver went bad so easily, I would suspect the other to not be far behind, as the previous user probably was giving them the same signal.  Now if during the fall, the magnet shifted on the woofer, then it would also fail early.

No way to tell without futher investigation.

The drivers in the Growlers are pretty stout, so something must be wrong, other than normal operation and it failing.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Babcock on May 16, 2008, 10:28:30 am
Ivan is absolutely right, any air leak into the cabinet will almost certainly alter it beyond the point of it being a usable reference for how growlers sound.

That said, I don't know the internal details of the growler's horn geometry, but this doesn't look good if that damage is not repaired.  Perhaps something like PL Premium could be used to seal the crack?  Jeff should probably advise.  I wouldn't just slap the new driver in the cabinet without sorting out the cabinet damage as well.

My bet is the magnet shifted when the other damage occurred.  The growler's driver is a huge beast and I have not heard of a failure prior to this, even with it being severely overpowered.

This is too bad, and stories like this make me extra nervous any time I ship a pallet of cabs.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on May 16, 2008, 01:50:34 pm
That damage looks rough. I cracked the corners a little when I had them, but man, I could never do that kind of damage! It wouldnt surprise me if they were dropped a few times. Sure, I drove them pretty hard, but as of the subwoofer shootout, they were working just fine.

I'd be really interested to see how the LS608's perform against the Growlers. Those were some pretty sweet little subs.

Oh, and I dont think these growlers should be shipped around anymore... I just see the cabinets getting destroyed. I think they should be hand delivered from person to person. Just my .02.



Thanks,
Evan
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Rob Spence on May 22, 2008, 10:11:55 pm
Hmmm, makes me glad I got the steel corners Smile
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Phil LaDue on May 22, 2008, 10:51:55 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Fri, 16 May 2008 13:50

Oh, and I dont think these growlers should be shipped around anymore... I just see the cabinets getting destroyed. I think they should be hand delivered from person to person. Just my .02.
Do we need a packing tutorial here?
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Cosmas Bain on June 04, 2008, 10:09:00 pm
any updates
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on June 05, 2008, 10:41:30 am
we've been slammed for the last 2 weeks and for the next two weeks - 22 jobs in 14 days. Mostly speaking engagements and graduations, so I haven't really been able to do much with the Growlers. If I can't get them out on a job in the next two weeks, I'll ship them (back to Jeff to repair the damaged jointery) so the road test can continue ASAP.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Mike Christy on June 05, 2008, 12:52:31 pm
What is the protocol when road test gear gets blown up, damaged or receives shipping damaged because of poor packing?
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on June 05, 2008, 03:17:08 pm
I suspect the previous tester used the same packaging they arrived in; I would like to box them up better, but short of building a shipping crate and dropping them on the back of a flatbed, it will be tough to improve on.

FYI, they arrived to me surrounded by 1" insulation foam, then into cardboard boxes.

As for getting blowed up... Jeff sent me a new driver which I put in, and I actually offered to pay for it because, while evidence suggests the driver was damaged on the road, I still feel bad that the smoke got out on my watch. Jeff didn't take me up on that offer, though, as he seems very genuinely interested in making sure people hear his cabinets.

I'll get this test on track shortly.. just gotta get through these 2 weeks.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Phil LaDue on June 05, 2008, 09:04:49 pm
E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 15:17

FYI, they arrived to me surrounded by 1" insulation foam, then into cardboard boxes.
The edges should be covered in something rigid.
For instance, if you buy a new piece of assembled furniture you will likely find layered fiberglass and cardboard "corners" attached to the piece.
The reasoning of course is that the "corner" will transfer the force of an impact evenly over the object.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Mike Pyle on June 07, 2008, 11:56:13 am
Phil LaDue wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 18:04

E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 15:17

FYI, they arrived to me surrounded by 1" insulation foam, then into cardboard boxes.
The edges should be covered in something rigid.
For instance, if you buy a new piece of assembled furniture you will likely find layered fiberglass and cardboard "corners" attached to the piece.
The reasoning of course is that the "corner" will transfer the force of an impact evenly over the object.




That is an excellent suggestion for any manufacturer who ships sound gear. I often reinforce the mfgr's packaging before shipping stuff out.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Rain Jaudon on June 24, 2008, 11:23:36 am
Any chance of these making a southern tour?  (or does anyone in Pensacola, FL, Mobile, AL, MS Gulf Coast or New Orleans, LA have em already?)

Rain
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jim Duyck on June 24, 2008, 11:34:33 pm
we're at a camp in the miflin, al area this week with 4 growlers.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Rain Jaudon on June 25, 2008, 02:56:37 pm
Jim -
Anything beyond that date? (I'm at a reunion in Kosciousko, MS this weekend)
Thanks
Rain
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jim Duyck on June 25, 2008, 11:37:12 pm
nah...we're headed back to ole Texas...
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jim Hodges on June 28, 2008, 01:08:33 am
So---are these still in Richmond?  If so I'd be interested in coming by to hear them.

Jim
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on June 28, 2008, 12:35:56 pm
Yes they are.  Very Happy
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Babcock on June 30, 2008, 11:36:51 am
Jeff has been pretty patient, this road test has been dragging on for a long time now without very many road tester reviews.

Yes, there have been some unexpected issues, and this is a busy time for everyone, but nevertheless if it is too busy to write a review, it is only fair to pass it on to someone else who is in line.  It would be nice to get the road test moving again.  At this rate it will be a couple of years getting through the testers.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on June 30, 2008, 11:40:00 am
Agreed. I have done a decent head-to-head on these vs some other subs at my warehouse and will write up a review, but I missed the window of appropriate gigs to test them on, and would like to ship them either back to Jeff so he can check out the corners, or on to the next tester.

Jeff, where to?
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on June 30, 2008, 01:03:21 pm
Its been 7 months so I'd like the speakers to return home for evaluation and repairs.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Cosmas Bain on August 02, 2008, 09:18:08 am
any updates?
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Sean Bugg on September 05, 2008, 04:15:29 pm
Have you received the growlers back yet? If the road test is over, cool. If you have plans to send them back out, I would like to use them for a show or 2. I could drive up and then send them on there way, or bring them back to you.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Steve Hurt on September 05, 2008, 04:29:30 pm
I'm doing a show tonight from 9-12 at Champps 82nd & Keystone
On Indianapolis north side

Here's a google Map
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=8711+N+River +Crossing+Blvd,+Indianapolis,+Marion,+Indiana+46240,+United+ States&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.978077,87.4511 72&ie=UTF8&cd=2&geocode=Fb4JYQIdUR7e-g&ll=39 .914291,-86.101153&spn=0.011916,0.02135&z=16&iwl oc=addr

(It'a a band I never heard)


I also have a show coming up on Sept 20 at Krazy Street on the south side of Indy.
Band is harder rock that night.

I have shows 3 weeks in a row following that, but those shows are my band and we barely turn the P.A. on so they aren't much for demo-ing subs.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on September 05, 2008, 06:13:17 pm
Sean Bugg wrote on Fri, 05 September 2008 15:15

If the road test is over, cool.


The road test is people evaluating products and then writing a review for others to read. It just seems that everyone wants to hear the Growlers but no one wants to write the review.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on September 05, 2008, 06:16:21 pm
Steve Hurt wrote on Fri, 05 September 2008 15:29

I'm doing a show tonight from 9-12 at Champps 82nd & Keystone
On Indianapolis north side


Thanks Steve!
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Rain Jaudon on September 05, 2008, 07:59:11 pm
Any chance of an active Growler?

Randy Frierson had Power Pod Audio a few years ago putting decent amps into cabs that were passive in a previous lifetime.

Not sure where he stands with Power Pod these days.


Have ya considered an active Growler?
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Sean Bugg on September 12, 2008, 01:22:48 pm
Steve,
Hope to make up to Indy sometime. Looks like I'll miss the shows you have coming up. We are booked the 20th. Keep me updated on when you might have them out again.


Jeff,

I understand what you mean. I would be more than happy to write a review. Don't know if that would benefit you as I am brand new to this sound game. I just do it for my band... from the stage at that.

On the other hand, it might be good for new people to hear a "newbie" opinion. It may help them not make the same mistake that I may have.

I leave that to you.

Thanks,
Sean

Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Josh Oswald on September 14, 2008, 03:30:24 pm
FWIW, i was on the original list of Growler Road Testers, but the cabs never made it that far. I have at least three different shows a week where i could use and evaluate the Growlers. One being a bar gig with on speaker on a stick over each growler (40 - 80 water bags). One being a youth facility on our church campus with a pair of U15's as mains (100 - 200 water bags). And the last being our main sanctuary on campus with CU15 mains (venue seats 800, so a pair would mostly likely not have the output but I'd put it to the test Smile ).

Josh Oswald
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on March 16, 2009, 12:12:06 am
Jeff Permanian wrote on Fri, 05 September 2008 18:13


The road test is people evaluating products and then writing a review for others to read. It just seems that everyone wants to hear the Growlers but no one wants to write the review.



Thus, my first post upon my return to the LAB will be fulfilling the obligation I made to Jeff many months ago.

As you may recall from my earlier posts, we received the growlers damaged, presumably from shipping. The one with the busted seams let out the (or the rest of the) magic smoke within a few minutes of firing it up.

Two things of note here: First, the build quality of the cabinets is excellent, despite the shipping damage. Shipping speakers around UPS just probably isn't the best idea. I think these would stand up the the abuse of a small company, owner-operator sort very well. I don't think the plastic corners did anything for them, and I am not sure they'd stand up to the abuse of a roadie crew. But they're not hobbiest built.. they're pro grade and should last most people for years. The hatch over the drivers comes right off, and the driver is a simple replacement. Also, props to Jeff for sending out a replacement driver as soon as I told him about the problem. We've read posts about his customer service before, but it bears repeating. He stands behind the product.

This also means I had a chance to check out the naked driver. Solid, heavy, and durable looking. Again, it looks like this cabinet took a dive off a loading dock, so I'm not surprised there could have been driver damage. In general, I'd expect these things to take a heck of a beating. The basket is heavy and solid, the surround is rubberized.. the thing looks like it could go swimming and come out none the worse for wear.

How they sound, of course, is the true measure of the cabinet.  We did our test in a "plug and play" sort of way, moving the cable from one set of cabinets to the next without any processor or EQ re-tuning. Frankly, I find this to be a more realistic usage scenario for companies like ours that have a variety of systems that go out in a variety of situations. A crossover around 100hz with a notch or bump in the EQ at 80 depending on the music style of the evening. We don't usually have time (or, honestly, skill level) for a system analysis and re-tune for every gig in every configuration.

Refer to my picture a few pages back, and you'll find the lineup in our little listening party was as follows:

JBL VRX918S, Growlers, Yamaha SW118, Yorkville LS608

Unfortunately, we didn't get to compare against the 608s with the new driver - those belong to Tim Tyler.

We did, however, get to listen to them against the JBLs and the Yamahas. So it's between two front-loaded 18s and the Growler horns.

I found the growlers to be very capable cabinets. They sound bigger than they are, and seem to me to be more efficient than the front loaded cabinets. Per power setting, a pair of growlers felt louder to me than the Yamahas did, with the JBLs being able to be driven loudest with the addition of more power.

I think the growlers aren't going to be a hip hip subwoofer, but they do sound very nice within their comfortable power range. It seemed like they had a ~90hz note that they particularily liked to reproduce, but the charts on Jeff's website don't seem to bear that out, so I'm not sure what I was hearing. It could have been a mode of the area we were testing in, but I didn't notice it with the other cabinets when I did a sweep track.
Not at all peaky like the Cerwin Vega one-note-wonders, but just a little resonant bump. The VRX subs start honking somewhere just above 100, but I usually have them crossed in that range, so it rolls off.

I also split the growlers apart from eachother when I had the new driver in. As with any sub, they like to be in pairs. But I found the coupling to be especially pronounced with the growlers. I've never owned a horn loaded sub before, so it was a little startling for me to hear the difference when they were coupled vs. not.

From a power to size/weight ratio standpoint, the Growlers hold their own nicely. They are definitely heavy, but not abnormally for their size, and not heavy like a big dual18 cabinet. (You might can tell from the picture that around here, we like our single 18s.. easy to move, and after all, you can stack 'em together...) They're not going to be slamming arena rock and roll cabinets - well, I guess 12 of them side by side would be pretty impressive - but I think 4 of them would make a great setup for a small provider for classic rock, bluegrass, etc. Metal or Hip Hop, I don't really think so. They don't sound fat and in-your-face.. they are silkier and musical.

The problem with my review and my opinion is that we weren't able to get them out on a job, which was supposed to be the point. I felt bad that Jeff's road test was not going as one would have hoped and wanted to get them back to him instead of waiting till our next band sound gig came along, which could have been a few months. When we do bands, it's almost always as a provider for our existing corporate or event clients, not so much as a 'band sound' provider, so we tend to see that happen in spurts.

So what I'm writing is based on CD listening at our warehouse.

For the musical provider who wants a sexy, silky system, I think the Growlers are a solid bet.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Scott Smith on September 07, 2009, 10:10:16 am
If the Growlers ever make it to south Florida, I'd love to do a test drive... and would MOST certainly do a write-up immediately afterwards.  I do about 3-4 various outdoor gigs a week, and a downsize performer would definately be of interest to me.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Phil Lewandowski on September 07, 2009, 10:24:45 am
Scott Smith wrote on Mon, 07 September 2009 10:10

If the Growlers ever make it to south Florida, I'd love to do a test drive... and would MOST certainly do a write-up immediately afterwards.  I do about 3-4 various outdoor gigs a week, and a downsize performer would definately be of interest to me.


Hey Scott,

Give Jeff a ring I am sure he would be most willing to let you borrow a pair.


Phil
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on September 09, 2009, 08:36:19 pm
Maybe I'll road test the new 2010 Growler Cool
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Steve Hurt on September 09, 2009, 08:39:44 pm
Is that the one that weighs 10 pounds less and is 3db louder than all the previous Growlers?
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on September 09, 2009, 08:42:15 pm
Testing a heavily braced 15mm baltic birch cabinet and if that works out then the new Growler will be under 85lbs. If we stay with the current 18mm baltic birch it will weight in around 90lbs.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Steve Hurt on September 09, 2009, 08:49:18 pm
If it's braced the way the Triple 8's are braced, it will be VERY solid.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Rain Jaudon on September 09, 2009, 09:37:04 pm
Demo needed on the Mississippi Gulf Coast! Very Happy
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jonathan Ladner on October 20, 2009, 03:00:47 pm
Rain, perhaps we can get a demo for our Jan 23rd carnival ball gig?  I am still looking for another option and haven't heard a Growler yet.

Jeff: Do we sound like desperate dogs wanting attention? Rain and I have been waiting for the opportunity to hear them.  Very Happy
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on October 21, 2009, 04:57:16 pm
Shoot me over some info on this Jan 23rd event, maybe I can swing by.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jonathan Ladner on October 21, 2009, 05:22:53 pm
Hey Jeff,
It will be at the Jackson County Civic Center in Pascagoula, Mississippi.

Here is a map to the venue.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&cid=0,0,49 41075417786904448&fb=1&hq=Civic+Center&hnear=Pas cagoula&gl=us&daddr=2902+Shortcut+Rd,+Pascagoula,+MS +39567-1842&geocode=9558998666610957066,30.381571,-88.53 1376&ei=uHbfSpzgAc7X8Aai6sxk&ved=0CA0QngIwAA&z=1 6

This will be a fairly large carnival ball with over 1000 in attendance.  I can give you more specs on the venue and desirable spl levels if you need.

Let me know your thoughts and if this is feasible for you.  I can probably make this available to anyone in the Gulf Coast region who has been wanting to hear a demo of JTR speakers.

Jonathan
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on October 22, 2009, 04:04:19 am
You don't export do you?  I could try a pair out for you "down under" and see if they still work upside down  Laughing
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on October 23, 2009, 10:52:44 am
Shoot me over the specs.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jonathan Ladner on October 27, 2009, 02:53:03 pm
Hey Jeff, Did you get my PM?
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on October 27, 2009, 07:59:40 pm
Jonathan,

I'll PM you about the event.

Jeff
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jonathan Ladner on October 27, 2009, 10:53:04 pm
Great, I will have monitor world covered then.  Is there anything specific you will require for FOH or do we just need to provide mixer, efx processing, etc.?

Anyone who is able to attend this event is welcome.  Please provide me your contact information so I may put your name on the list.

Thanks
Jonathan
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on October 28, 2009, 02:54:21 am
Will do Very Happy
Title: Re: Evan vs. the Growlers, round 1
Post by: Kevin Unger on November 03, 2009, 08:47:46 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 16:57

Richard Rajchel wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 05:01

The key though is that when you use 2 horn loaded cabs together they get a 6dB boost. So instead of 100 dB sensitivity they actually now have 106 dB as a pair.

When you use ANY two cabinets together, within 1/4 wavelength of each other, and you also apply the same power to both of them, you get a 6dB increase in SPL. 3dB is from cabinet coupling, 3dB is from doubling the power (if you had an 8 ohm sub connected to an amplifier capable of delivering 1000 watts at 8 ohms, and you connect another identical sub to the same amp channel, the amplifier now provides 2000 watts into what is now a 4 ohm load to be "shared" by both subwoofers, so each still gets 1000 watts).



The benefit of a horn is increased bandwidth due to the horn mouths coupling (when using multiples)


Just thought I'd throw that in there.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on November 05, 2009, 01:02:00 am
Jonathan Goodall wrote on Thu, 22 October 2009 21:04

You don't export do you?  I could try a pair out for you "down under" and see if they still work upside down  Laughing


Seriously though, would you export to New Zealand? and would you have any idea of the freight costs for say a pair?

Cheers Jonathan.
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Adam Whetham on November 11, 2009, 10:33:38 am
Jeff... where did your website go? I'm getting a register.com splash page when i go there...
Title: Re: JTR Speakers "Growler" is Going on a Road Test
Post by: Jeff Permanian on November 30, 2009, 12:54:55 am
Adam Whetham wrote on Wed, 11 November 2009 09:33

Jeff... where did your website go? I'm getting a register.com splash page when i go there...


Missed this, it was back up again within a couple hours that day.