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Title: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Bennett Prescott on September 25, 2006, 12:39:56 am
I've been hearing a lot of great things about the Camco Vortex series of amplifiers, so when Jim Stahowski (my local Ashly/Camco guy) asked if I'd like to try out an amp or two, I was more than willing. Along with the Ashly PE amp he sent me that I've reviewed in another post in this forum, I received a Vortex 4 and a Vortex 3 Quadro.

They all look basically like this, which I think is pretty cool:
http://www.camcoaudio.com/pictures/product/vortexamp2.jpg

The Vortex line additionally includes the Vortex 2.6 (1,300 watts into 2 ohms), Vortex 6 (3,000 watts into 2 ohms), and Vortex 200V (3,200 watts into 4 ohms). All of the amplifiers are microprocessor controlled for increased linearity, advanced troubleshooting, and remote monitoring and control. The entire series weighs just over 27lbs (12.4Kg) each, features Neutrik Speakon outputs, and has a worldwide switching power supply with permanently attached mains cord.

The Vortex 4 claims to produce 2Kw into a 2-ohm load per channel and 4Kw bridged into 4-ohms. Unlike your garden variety amp, however, it will drive 4Kw into a 1-ohm load in parallel mono mode... nice to have that extra option available. It's got XLR in and through for each channel as well as switches on the back for globally lifting the input grounds, setting input sensitivity (26dB, 32dB, or 1.4v), defeating the internal limiters, and setting the amplifier mode to bridge, stereo, or parallel. Front panel lights are available to indicate per channel power, signal, and clip plus global operating mode (bridge or parallel mono) and Camco Audio Interface status (more on this later). The Speakon connectors on the back of the amplifier have both channel A and B available for easy bi-amping or what-have-you.

If you need four channels of top-quality amplifier in a lightweight package  the Camco Vortex 3 Quadro may be for you. At 750 watts per channel into 4-ohms and the ability to drive bridged loads at 8 ohms or parallel mono loads at 2 ohms with 1,500 watts of power, it certainly packs a punch. It has a few noteworthy differences from the rest of the Vortex line... while there are independent front panel attenuators for each channel (except in mono mode, in which case only the odd-numbered channel control is active) there are only two Speakon outputs on the back, with the first two channels paired to one and the second two available from the other. Channel gain and mono/stereo mode is also shared between pairs of channels, with input ground lift and limiter mode global across all four. There are XLR ins but no throughs, and they're hard-wired to the chassis unlike the rest of the line which has swappable input cards. Front panel indicators are identical to the other amplifiers in the Vortex series.

Having four channels in such a flexible and powerful package could be a real boon. You could bridge one and use the amp to tri-amp pretty much anything, one amp per speaker. You could bridge both and drive... subs! Or do two bi-amped mixes with a decent amount of power behind them, or run four channels of compression driver. I'm getting a little creative here, but you see my point.

One paragraph spec sheets over, here's what's cool. First of all, the front panel attenuation controls aren't in the signal path... they control DCAs that do the actual work. This also allows remote level control of the amplifier over CAI (Camco Audio Interface). CAI's a pretty cool thing in and of itself... string together a bunch of Camco amps using telephone cable, set their IDs using the front panel knobs (it's all spelled out in the manual) and you can adjust input level, mute individual channels, standby an entire amp, and monitor temperature, output signal, clipping, and output current.

Every amp except for the Vortex 3 Quadro also has an Extended User Interface card with the inputs on it. The stock inputs are nothing fancy, but you can swap in your own card with advanced filters, limiting, level control, or whatever strikes your fancy. Similarly to Crown's PIC concept, this would allow you to build something like your entire set of wedge processing into one card and then slap it into the amp for a simple, powerful, lightweight, bi-amped monitor mix.

The built-in microprocessor is also used to control channel limiting. With the limiters enabled, the amplifier monitors the input signal as well as the output and will use the DCAs in the front end to keep distortion below 1% at all times. This limiting function is also used to ensure that if the amplifier is loaded to too low an impedance its output will be pulled back in order to keep it operating, albeit at a significantly lower level. Perhaps this is the feature that has generated such rave reviews of the sound quality produced by these amplifiers?

As would be expected from a high end amp, these also have a truly all-encompassing list of protection features. Three-point DC monitoring, servo-coupled capacitorless inputs, over current, under current, thermal protection, inrush current limiting, variable-speed fans, and input current protection (the amp monitors itself to ensure it does not exceed 30 amps of current draw at 120v) all combine to make this amp virtually Bennett (er... fool) proof. In case of a non-recoverable fault, the amplifier will indicate its fault status by blinking the "On" LED of the channel affected in one of 9 different ways.

So far I've used these amps twice, both times driving monitors. Unfortunately, it wasn't exactly a critical listening test, and I certainly wasn't driving them up against their rails so I didn't get to experience how they performed under duress. I also recently used a Vortex 6 while working with another company, and it was good to me as well, but since it was running front fills I barely tickled the signal lights. Since I'm doing a bunch of suitcase gigs this time of year, I palmed both amps off on others... John Chiara and Mike Butler should be showing up with their opinions soon. I'm sure they'll put them to good use, and after they're done we can move them on to others who may be able to subject them to some real world abuse.

The product page for these amplifiers is available here: http://www.camcoaudio.com/Vortex.html
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on September 25, 2006, 09:41:49 am
I'm not sure I follow the benefit of "world-wide" (universal voltage?) switching PS with a permanently attached line cord (over voltage?). At least with an IEC line cord you could also plug it in "world-wide" too.

I'd also need to check the schematic for those "servo-coupled capacitorless inputs". All the typical DC servo circuits I've seen use capacitors. I guess they could use D/As to add a DC correction but I'd need to see that since it's expensive overkill.

I'm not picking on you Bennet, this must be the part of the review thread where you paraphrase and/or paste the company's marketing FAB. AFAIK these amps are not turds so they shouldn't need polishing.

JR
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jim Stachowski - Ashly on September 25, 2006, 10:23:25 am
Darn, I saw my name and have to come out of lurking mode. Many thanks for the Camco Vortex overview and kind comments.

Though I am not the technical person for Ashly or Camco, I must point out the worldwide switching power supply for the Vortex amps is not universal. There are separate 120V and 230V versions.

Also, a big thanks to the Wedge-Fest crew and PSW for taking the time to play with these little amps.

Jim Stachowski
(the marketing guy)
Ashly Audio, Inc.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Bennett Prescott on September 25, 2006, 12:58:38 pm
Jim Stachowski - Ashly wrote on Mon, 25 September 2006 10:23

Though I am not the technical person for Ashly or Camco, I must point out the worldwide switching power supply for the Vortex amps is not universal. There are separate 120V and 230V versions.

Oops! Sorry, folks, the manual made it appear as though the PSU was universal. Jim, if I buy a 120V version and want to use it with 230V mains, is there a switch or do I need an entirely different amp?

Also, could you please have one of your technical people elaborate on the line from the manual describing the input stage's DC blocking techniques? Here it is quoted.

index.php/fa/5953/0/


John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Mon, 25 September 2006 09:41

I'm not picking on you Bennett, this must be the part of the review thread where you paraphrase and/or paste the company's marketing FAB.

You bet!
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on September 25, 2006, 02:20:11 pm
The PS issue is worth clarification as portability across different voltage mains could be useful to some customers, but the "no capacitors in the signal path" is more a matter of personal amusement than of any real significance one way or the other.

First because the implied benefit is based on the questionable premise that DC blocking capacitors degrade signal integrity. Secondly the classic 'DC servo" circuit does indeed still use capacitors. Instead of large electrolytics in the forward path, smaller high quality film capacitors are used in combination with an opamp (as an impedance multiplier or scaler) in an overall feedback loop. While perhaps not obvious to those unskilled in circuit design, the capacitors in the feedback loop are indeed very much in the audio path. Any who don't believe me are invited to replace those capacitors with diodes and see how clean their audio path sounds.   Cool

This little bit of marketing puffery is so old I wrote about it in my "audio mythology" column back in the '80s. Of course my comments here are an abbreviated version.

I appreciate the difficulty of creating the impression of a merchantable difference between modern amplifiers when most deliver quite good bandwidth and linearity, but keeping with the spirit of the LAB being a hype-free zone I will point out claims that appear worthy of investigation.  

JR

Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Bennett Prescott on September 25, 2006, 02:27:45 pm
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Mon, 25 September 2006 14:20

I appreciate the difficulty of creating the impression of a merchantable difference between modern amplifiers when most deliver quite good bandwidth and linearity, but keeping with the spirit of the LAB being a hype-free zone I will point out claims that appear worthy of investigation.

Agreed! Very interesting stuff, JR, and thanks for keeping this "real".
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Lester Moran on October 02, 2006, 08:27:07 pm
This is timely for me as I was recently offered four rep-demo V6s for 2,900 USD each.  I would be replacing four MA3600s that serve as sub and mid amps in a JBL 4894 /SRX 4715 system.  I like the 3600s, but a more power/less weight upgrade would be cool as long as sonically it is an upgrade.


I see the latest Bink's Amp Shootout didn't get Camcos to test, and Forum searches haven't produced the breadth of Camco opinions I was hoping for.  Can anyone provide a link to some opinions I may have missed?

Thanks,  Les
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Chris Cowley on November 02, 2006, 07:43:59 am
Lester Moran wrote on Tue, 03 October 2006 01:27

This is timely for me as I was recently offered four rep-demo V6s for 2,900 USD each.  I would be replacing four MA3600s that serve as sub and mid amps in a JBL 4894 /SRX 4715 system.  I like the 3600s, but a more power/less weight upgrade would be cool as long as sonically it is an upgrade.


I see the latest Bink's Amp Shootout didn't get Camcos to test, and Forum searches haven't produced the breadth of Camco opinions I was hoping for.  Can anyone provide a link to some opinions I may have missed?

Thanks,  Les



I can't give you any links, but I love 'em. When SSE Hire first replaced the enormous racks of MA5000s they used to use for their Alpha rigs with Vortex6 the difference was incredible. You could clip the all night long at 2ohms and they just went on ... and on ... and on ...
The amount of headroom compared to the Crowns was great as well.

Also my local venue uses a pair of Vortex 6s (driving 4 Turbosound TSW-718, and 6 TSE-111). These are used at least 5 days a week for everything from 70s DJs to hardcore metal bands and they have been great.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 15, 2006, 04:33:54 pm

index.php/fa/5953/0/


Yeah, and there are very few capacitors (speak: low buffer) on the PSU too.

Also, the housing is pretty cheap. SMD transistors pretty tightly packed in the output stage (with voltages over 200V, humid air ahoy!) and the worst performance on subwoofers you can get for that money.

I ABed them, I road tested them, and they failed. Sorry.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on November 15, 2006, 06:23:00 pm
Jens Droessler wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 14:33


index.php/fa/5953/0/


Yeah, and there are very few capacitors (speak: low buffer) on the PSU too.

Also, the housing is pretty cheap. SMD transistors pretty tightly packed in the output stage (with voltages over 200V, humid air ahoy!) and the worst performance on subwoofers you can get for that money.

I ABed them, I road tested them, and they failed. Sorry.



Then YOU are the only one I have ever heard of that thought these to be the worst performers!  All the guys at Nexo have had it wrong this whole time, right!?  Could it possibly be that the reduced distortion levels made you not like the sound of your subs?   Shocked  
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Dan Brown on November 15, 2006, 06:45:16 pm
Jens Droessler wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 15:33


index.php/fa/5953/0/


Yeah, and there are very few capacitors (speak: low buffer) on the PSU too.

Also, the housing is pretty cheap. SMD transistors pretty tightly packed in the output stage (with voltages over 200V, humid air ahoy!) and the worst performance on subwoofers you can get for that money.

I ABed them, I road tested them, and they failed. Sorry.


This is at least the second time you have posted information like this.
It is also the only time I have heard someone with a statement like this.
very interesting.
I have had no issues with mine but several of them are new to me.

What amps are you using instead?

sincerely,
db
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Simon Tucker on November 15, 2006, 07:56:17 pm
Hey,

I have to agree with you here Dan.

In the few years I have had my Vortex 6's and Tectons, Jens has been the only one ever to have a bad word to say about them.

Simon
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on November 15, 2006, 08:07:12 pm
I just read about 15 of Jens Droessler's past posts.  This dude must have the most F#*@ing amazing golden ears on earth.  He says the camcos are only good on the highs and Digams only on lows and that the MA5000s are weak on bass!  This dude is out of his mind!  He must work for a company that competes with camco or something like that.  Anything that he writes should be taken with several grains of salt because as far as I am concerned he has no credibility at this point in time.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Dan Brown on November 15, 2006, 08:18:42 pm
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 19:07

... and that the MA5000s are weak on bass! ...


Wow, again that is news to me.

I was thinking the same thing about him working for a competing amp manufacturer.

Maybe he will enlighten us about the perfect amp for all?

sincerely,
db
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Andy Peters on November 15, 2006, 10:55:52 pm
Jens Droessler wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 14:33


index.php/fa/5953/0/



Ah, yeah. the old lie about the integrator capacitor in the servo "not in the audio path."  Phooey.

Quote:

Yeah, and there are very few capacitors (speak: low buffer) on the PSU too.


A big bonus of a switch-mode power supply is that is doesn't need tens of thousands of microfarads of capacitance for it to function properly.

Quote:

SMD transistors pretty tightly packed in the output stage (with voltages over 200V, humid air ahoy!)


SMD!  Oh, the HORROR!

Having said all of that, I don't think I've ever mixed on a rig with Camco amps, so I have no opinion.

-a
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: John Horvath on November 15, 2006, 11:22:43 pm
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 19:07

This dude is out of his mind!

Well, he is from Germany.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on November 15, 2006, 11:24:04 pm
John Horvath wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 21:22

RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 19:07

This dude is out of his mind!

Well, he is from Germany.



So are Camco amps....  It can't be the reason for how he is.  
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 16, 2006, 12:08:52 am
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 17:23



Yeah, and there are very few capacitors (speak: low buffer) on the PSU too.

Also, the housing is pretty cheap. SMD transistors pretty tightly packed in the output stage (with voltages over 200V, humid air ahoy!) and the worst performance on subwoofers you can get for that money.

I ABed them, I road tested them, and they failed. Sorry.[
===============


Then YOU are the only one I have ever heard of that thought these to be the worst performers!  All the guys at Nexo have had it wrong this whole time, right!?  Could it possibly be that the reduced distortion levels made you not like the sound of your subs?   Shocked  


One man,  one vote... relax if you don't agree with his opinion offer your own. It's possible to find flaws in everything (and everyone).

I don't have first hand experience myself, and don't much care.

JR
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 16, 2006, 06:48:45 pm
@ RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS: What is this with you? Having problems allowing other people to have a different opinion on things you bought? Sorry to piss on your parade....

Give your amps to a technician who knows the difference between 'good looks' and 'good circuit design' and he'll laugh his ass off on how the Vortex are designed and how you spent your money.

I did NOT say they are the worst performers. They simply are the worst BASS performers in their PRICE class. Just go and compare! I know MANY companies still relying on older Camco designs (DL) for their  Nexo PS15-sets, because they compared and even with a PS15 the bass was 'slim'. Only with the bigger systems they use Vortex6, because a rack with four Vortex6 is much easier to handle than a rack with four DL3000, smaller too. And it is NOT like the Vortex can't do ANY bass, it is just weaker.

I NEVER said the MA5000 is weak on bass. I said (and not only once) that the reason for the MA5000 sounding that fat is the pretty heavy distortion this amplifier produces at higher levels.

Yes, the original PowerSoft DigAm series, which I owned two of (until both suffered from PSU problems), is only really usable for bass. Highs get a rough sound, and THAT IS WIDELY KNOWN. Even the German distributor told this in public!

@ Dan Brown: I use LAB Gruppen fP and Studio R X-series. The LAB Gruppen fPs and FP+ are IMO the most perfect amps. They are good on bass, on mids and highs. If you specialize, like having model A on bass and model B on highs, maybe even a third model for mids, then Studio R is incredible. They have extremely strong amps for bass, and incredibly fine amps for highs, but not 'in one package'.

@ Andy Peters: SMD is NOTHING I'd like to see on the high current, high voltage output stage of an amplifier. I know of a ompany having an open air near a river (no, not IN the river), where five of sixteen Vortex amps FRIED because of the high humidity and the low distance between the SMD parts. I never heard of this with conventional output stages. Also if this happens the only way to repair the Vortex is to replace the whole board. I rarely had to do such thing on a conventionally equipped output stage.

The Vortex has almost NO capacity between PSU and output stage. It is highly depending on the power lines. And that's something even the most users admit (at least here in Germany).

The housing is cheap. It's not what I expect when I buy an amplifier for that price. The metal is thin. Of course this adds to the lightweight (but the LABs got a much better housing and they aren't heavier) and will not be a problem when properly mounted in a rack, but it's simply not what I expect at this price.

@ all: People, come on, be realistic. I know it's hard to hear such things about something you put a lot of money into. Go and compare instead of saying 'I never noticed that' or even insulting me. If you ant, go out and find flaws about my stuff... I have no problem admitting real flaws....
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on November 16, 2006, 07:15:39 pm
It's really easy enough to do a side by side and compare a couple different amps and find out whether Jens is full of sh!t or not. As soon as I can get my hands on a FP 13000 I'll be doing so here in the SF Bay Area. The Vortex 6 isn't powerful enough to run my subs anyway. Wish I could get my hands on one of those Studio R amps, but they've got no facilities for sales or repair here in the US, and I'm not about to drop $1500 for a demo...

That being said, I own 3 Vortex 6's and I like them a lot. Features like adjustable input gain, easily removeable air filters, and their unique parallel mono mode make for a great user experience. Maybe they won't like running on a cheapo gennie, but it's been ages since my system's been run on anything less than MQ power with plenty of headroom anyway.

Did I mention that Camco has great service? One of my amps arrived DOA (a very uncommon occurance as far as I can tell.) Camco had a brand new replacement amp at my door within days. Not like my I-Tech 8000 that took 2+ weeks to get fixed. Not at all... Mad
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Simon Tucker on November 16, 2006, 08:21:34 pm
Hi Jens,

I personally like Lab Gruppens myself, but I do have to disagree with you slightly ...

I was involved with an event last year where we had an event with 4 stacks of Alpha-E per side, one side driven by FP6400's, the other by Vortex 6's.  It was kept like this for the whole night.  We found virtually no difference in the two, the only slight bit of perceived difference was that the side with the Vortex's was slightly 'punchier'.  This was the general opinion between 3 different engineers at the event.  There was certainly no noticable audible difference.  (Also it was a DJ so the sounds of any instruments or monitoring on stage wouldnt have had any effect)

Ok, it was hardly a fair test, the room could have played a part in it, and its hardly scientific, but on the one occasion we had a chance to AB, the 2 differenct kinds of amps seemed to behave exactly the same.  (As any amps theoretically should within their operating range).

That said, give me a rack with Vortex 6's in, or give me a rack with fP6400's in and I'm a happy man.

Simon
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 17, 2006, 10:43:35 am
@ Pascal Pincosy: The comparison Vortex6 vs. FP+13000 would be a bit unfair. I really like the LABs, but I think with the FP+13000 they have gone a bit too far. See, the LAB fPs have a circuitry in the PSU allowing them to only draw 16A at 230V, I guess it would be 32A at 110V then for USA. If I drive the fP6400 on bass at 2 ohms, the LED indicator of that circuit already sometimes lights up. That means a full tilt 2 ohms heavy bass load already draws more current (RMS) than the PSU allows. The FP+13000 has the same circuit, also allowing 16/32A, but it's rated with more than double the power. You see where I'm going?
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 17, 2006, 01:09:31 pm
Jens Droessler wrote on Fri, 17 November 2006 09:43

@ Pascal Pincosy: The comparison Vortex6 vs. FP+13000 would be a bit unfair. I really like the LABs, but I think with the FP+13000 they have gone a bit too far. See, the LAB fPs have a circuitry in the PSU allowing them to only draw 16A at 230V, I guess it would be 32A at 110V then for USA. If I drive the fP6400 on bass at 2 ohms, the LED indicator of that circuit already sometimes lights up. That means a full tilt 2 ohms heavy bass load already draws more current (RMS) than the PSU allows. The FP+13000 has the same circuit, also allowing 16/32A, but it's rated with more than double the power. You see where I'm going?


I just looked at the spec sheet and while they don't provide specific details there about a mains current limiter they do publish a 58A output current. This suggests that they can drive a 4 ohm load to the 195v max output. They can drive lower impedances but don't make more power by doing so.

In the real world of music reproduction involving other than continuous sine waves combined with the practical limits of how much continuous power loudspeakers can handle, it is not IMO unreasonable to design amplifiers with higher peak than continuous output.

I am too lazy to chase down details of their PS limits so perhaps it is appropriate to also establish a max continuous output power spec, but AFAIK no amp manufacturer does, nor do they design audio amps for continuous duty cycle output. It may also be significant that the amp uses a 16 amp line cord, so that limit may be a safety agency approval issue.

I wouldn't even attempt to speculate on how a 120v model would deal with mains power issues.

JR
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 17, 2006, 11:52:13 pm
Hi John,

Yes, they can do 58A, but only until the PSU limits the current. As I said, this happens already with the fP6400 at 2 ohms and heavy bass (you can see it because the 'AFL' LED starts lighting up). This means the output is reduced already at some points. So doing more than double the power with the same mains current limiting wouldn't give you that much more output than with the fP6400 (driven by the same heavy bass signal). I agree in any case that a high peak power is a good thing.

Quote:

I am too lazy to chase down details of their PS limits so perhaps it is appropriate to also establish a max continuous output power spec, but AFAIK no amp manufacturer does, nor do they design audio amps for continuous duty cycle output
Yes, there is at least one manufacturer doing this (just like in the old times). They have an amp with 2x5500W IEC @ 2 ohms (around 2x6500W at 2 ohms in the more common EIA measurement, like LAB Gruppen or PowerSoft do), also specced with around that power when driven by sine signals to 0dB, drawing 68A from a 230V line then.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 18, 2006, 08:47:34 am
on Fri, 17 November 2006 22:52


Quote:==I am too lazy to chase down details of their PS limits so perhaps it is appropriate to also establish a max continuous output power spec, but AFAIK no amp manufacturer does, nor do they design audio amps for continuous duty cycle output
/quote

Jens Droessler wrote
Yes, there is at least one manufacturer doing this (just like in the old times). They have an amp with 2x5500W IEC @ 2 ohms (around 2x6500W at 2 ohms in the more common EIA measurement, like LAB Gruppen or PowerSoft do), also specced with around that power when driven by sine signals to 0dB, drawing 68A from a 230V line then.


My comment about nobody making a "continuous" duty cycle power amp was 24x7 continuous not continuous long enough to make a few measurements. The difficult part is just how continuous an amp needs to be. We don't listen to full scale sine waves but some genres can get pretty heavy in the bass dept.

While 24x7 duty would eliminate this as a point of discussion, I'll take your word for it if you know somebody doing so. Consumers reward amp companies that put out just enough duty cycle for their worst case application at a lower price. The original CS800s were continuous, but were also huge, heavy, and wouldn't drive 2 ohms. The later versions put out more power but at lower duty cycles and the customers embraced the change.

Before Bink did his power amp shootout a few years ago I pondered coming up with a bench test to quantify this that would be representative to real world use. I suspect this would be yet another specification to misinterpret.

JR



Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 18, 2006, 11:00:07 am
Of course an amp doesn't NEED to do full cycle for a long time with typical music. I use amplifiers not doing full cycle every day without problems in most cases. But IMO it is not wrong building the amp for doing it, making it able to draw 100A from a 110V line. IMO most manufacturers won't do this, not because they couldn't do it, but because it is much cheaper to build them that way.

Of course no amp in the class of 2x2000@4 ohms will do 24x7 full duty, but the ones I was talking of will do it for quite a while.

We do every kind of event, and sometimes, when the artists work with special effects or there's drum'n'bass music, amps lie the PowerSoft DigAms will regulate their output down. I had that several times, so in this case it IS a serious limitation...
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 18, 2006, 11:10:37 am
Jens Droessler wrote on Sat, 18 November 2006 10:00

Of course an amp doesn't NEED to do full cycle for a long time with typical music. I use amplifiers not doing full cycle every day without problems in most cases. But IMO it is not wrong building the amp for doing it, making it able to draw 100A from a 110V line. IMO most manufacturers won't do this, not because they couldn't do it, but because it is much cheaper to build them that way.

Of course no amp in the class of 2x2000@4 ohms will do 24x7 full duty, but the ones I was talking of will do it for quite a while.

We do every kind of event, and sometimes, when the artists work with special effects or there's drum'n'bass music, amps lie the PowerSoft DigAms will regulate their output down. I had that several times, so in this case it IS a serious limitation...


Designing amps for full duty cycle is a luxury that only a very small segment of the market would ever support. I was in the amp business long enough to see lower duty cycle amps capture huge market share due to their lower cost and apparent satisfactory performance in most applications. In an efficient mature marketplace the consumers rarely pay for performance they don't absolutely need.

JR

Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 18, 2006, 02:59:01 pm
I completely agree. But you know, it's all about brands too. The big names in the amp biz can set a 'high' price because their name is on the product. The amps I was talking about are actually even a bit cheaper than the amps from the big names, with so far identical or better reliability adn very impressive performance ('per watt'). No bells and whistles like DSP, LCD display or limiting output power for smaller speakers. Just compact and pretty lightweight power... I think if someone offers me 'more duty cycles' as in 'full duty cycles for some time above 5 minutes' for the same money or even less than I pay for other quality amps with 'typical music duty cycles' it's a good deal for me. If it has to have a big name on it, that's another game...

You may remember I had a lot of Peavey stuff and I still have a lot of old CS-X amps (I see no reason to throw them out as long as they work for small parties, weddings etc.). And that's pretty much what I want from new amps in terms of reliability, so I got LAB Gruppen and the before mentioned amps...

Enough of that OT talk... Smile
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Langston Holland on November 20, 2006, 12:03:10 pm
Pascal wrote on Thu, 16 November 2006:

Maybe they won't like running on a cheapo gennie, but it's been ages since my system's been run on anything less than MQ power with plenty of headroom anyway.


Pascal - I've been using two Vortex 6's since January and have nothing but good things to say about them. However, when Camco stamped 115v on the back of these things, they were truly expecting that to be the normal supply voltage. Above approx. 126 volts or so my amps go into mute, with audio restored in a smooth ramp up to normal gain once the supply voltage is reduced.

I used to increase the voltage on genie's to 125v or so per leg referenced to neutral to give my QSC, Crest and Crown amps a bit more headroom (or so I thought). Now I make sure the genie outputs 120v and all is well. Given that non-genie hookups are almost always under 125v, it's probable that this is where some folks have incorrectly concluded that the Camco's don't like genies.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 20, 2006, 12:41:33 pm
@ Langston: In the other direction it's the same. Under 115V the amp will loose power rapidly and because of the small buffers it will react instantaneous even to quick changes (like line droppings of a few volts on every bassdrum hit or such). This behaviour, also the overvoltage mute is partly because the SMPS is unregulated. It doen't react to the line situation (like LAB Gruppen for example does).
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Andy Peters on November 20, 2006, 01:10:34 pm
Jens Droessler wrote on Mon, 20 November 2006 10:41

@ Langston: In the other direction it's the same. Under 115V the amp will loose (SIC) power rapidly and because of the small buffers it will react instantaneous even to quick changes (like line droppings of a few volts on every bassdrum hit or such). This behaviour, also the overvoltage mute is partly because the SMPS is unregulated. It doen't react to the line situation (like LAB Gruppen for example does).


Jens, AGAIN: a SMPS doesn't need big honkin' caps because the caps are refreshed a lot more often than once every 1/60 seconds (1/50 in your part of the world).  You completely ignored this important fact the last time I pointed it out.

-a
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 20, 2006, 01:52:12 pm
Andy Peters wrote on Mon, 20 November 2006 12:10



Jens, AGAIN: a SMPS doesn't need big honkin' caps because the caps are refreshed a lot more often than once every 1/60 seconds (1/50 in your part of the world).  You completely ignored this important fact the last time I pointed it out.

-a


Not to agree or disagree with Jens' subjective assessment, the CAMCO uses an unregulated switcher (per a review on their website) so there is still a requirement for reservoir capacitors to supply current between mains voltage waveform peaks.

The HF switcher eliminates the heavy iron of a LF transformer but not the need for significant capacitance. Capacitors on the mains side of the switcher can be less capacitance but will need to be higher breakdown voltage so will neither be inexpensive or all that small.

In a three level class H amp if you deplete a lower rail reservoir the amp will (should) just switch to the next higher rail, so you won't run out of rail reserve until all rails, and the mains cap supplying the switcher are depleted.

In the early days of audio amps using switchers there were examples and valid criticism of reservoir sizing. As this technology is now pretty mature I would be inclined to expect that they got it right and a number of happy customers seem to suggest that.

YMMV

JR    
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 20, 2006, 04:13:15 pm
@ Andy Peters: No, I didn't ignore it, I just replied to it. Yes, you are right that the buffers can have a smaller capacity, but as this is an UNREGULATED design, they still have to be adequate. But they are not. They are adequate if you have nearly perfect main lines with low impedance, a.k.a. virtually NO voltage drop on huge current demands. You have that many times, yes, and with big big events you have it 80% of time, so this problem is reasonable to ignore. But for the smaller companies with 'wall outlet jobs', fulfilling their dream to have such an amp, this would be a massive drawback, but yet they'd have to admit that their hard earned bucks went into a product not fully up to what they thought. Most people just can't do that and it's the subconscience doing this. They don't even intend to....

Still, even with good power lines, there are amps with less power rating outperforming the Vortex in bass range. Believe it or not.

All you Vortex owner might feel insulted by my statements. If you are really FULLY happy with them, so be it, but I think potential new customers have the right to know that some people think otherwise.

A friend of mine, at least here in Germany known for his knowledge about amp circuit desgn, called the Vortex 'value engineered for high profits' (I hope I got that translation right).


@ John Roberts: Really, John, how many people do you know capable of admiting that they invested a big bag of money in the wrong product? As I said, it's already happening on subconscious level, the people can't do anything about it.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 20, 2006, 05:41:51 pm
Jens Droessler wrote on Mon, 20 November 2006 15:13

@ John Roberts: Really, John, how many people do you know capable of admiting that they invested a big bag of money in the wrong product? As I said, it's already happening on subconscious level, the people can't do anything about it.


I don't argue with people about what they hear, and customers are always right (even when they're wrong).

While it rare for individuals to brag about their past purchasing mistakes they don't typically hypnotize themselves into believing a lump of crap is good, and keep buying more.

The switcher and/or amount of reservoir capacitance will make little difference wrt mains source impedance, and a 3 level class H will be noticeably better than class AB. Only PFC and to a lesser extent regulated switchers will mitigate against wimpy mains.  

Another data point I can't address is how does the 120V market design differ from the 230V market? IIRC most of the favorable reports here are from 120V users.

JR


Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 20, 2006, 07:51:54 pm
But the higher rails are with even less capacitance, because they should only take medium 'peaks' (middle rail) or real peaks (high rail), while the lowest rail has the most 'work' and therefore the biggest buffer.

A further question about this issue is: How many people dare to compare? IMO the most people ordering a big number in the first place just because they look good on paper and are from a renowned company won't. They will be quite pleased with the performance, because their older amps stopped 700W earlier on 4 ohms (2x1500W at 4 ohms) and had additional 40lbs per unit. A local company has a lot of Vortex6 and used to have a lot of DL3000 (and DL3000-2). They NEVER EVER compared. I asked why, they told me 'Why should we? The new ones make our racks 160lbs lighter and a lot more powerful' (on paper that is). And that is  big company doing jobs on international level. So I think most companies never compared..... some did, but as I said, after that they eventually found a reason that would work for them to keep'em. I don't want to argue with them, but I think it's not wrong to bring up bad sides.

I'm really starting to get the feeling that the ProSoundWeb has been converted into a 'Happy Sunshine forum' where nobody is allowed to say bad things about a product.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Lee Jacobson on November 20, 2006, 08:51:33 pm
Jens,

 No happy sunshine for me. That said, I think you stated the reason right in your last post. They do the job, are smaller, lighter, and do more than the old ones. I am not saying "who cares if they don't meet spec", because, frankly, I don't know that you have all the facts. Not saying you don't, not jumping on your bandwagon either.

Lee
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on November 21, 2006, 01:21:23 pm
@ Lee: Even if some people here might get the impression I'm only here to piss off people, it's not like that (it's just an unwanted sideeffect). I just want to inform people with the possible interest to buy an amp in this class (weight and power rating) that there are amps doing the job a bit or even much better. I never expected people already owning 20 units to sell them to switch over to LAB or something (OTOH I already saw people doing this Smile ). They do the job, that's the least you can expect when you pay such money.
Of course it is a matter of what you are looking for: Get the job done (will work with Vortex) or get the best equipment possible for price X (won't work with Vortex). All I want is that potential custmers compare instead of buy because of reputation. They'll find out themselves.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 21, 2006, 02:56:55 pm
Jens-

I don't think that 'bad news' is verbotten here.  I do think that the Vortex users here aren't experiencing problems, or perhaps are not using amps in the same manner, or holding them to the same criteria, as you.

We had a Nexo Geo S rig on demo last year, and I played with the supplied Vortex 6 amps on some of our existing gear.  I didn't have an opportunity to take them out on a gig, however.  In the shop, I noticed some differences on subwoofers when compared with Macrotech 5002s, *but* the sonic differences I heard were not great, and were acceptable to us from a *business* standpoint.  However, the client we were anticipating a contract with, did not choose us and we didn't buy the Geo S rig or anything else...

Good luck, have fun.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Trond Oeyre on November 26, 2006, 02:21:53 pm
I have the same experience as dessler, I also feel that camco 6 is good amps, but I often feel that they are not as thight in the sound as our macrotech 5002vz.

I havent heard the lab amplifiers, and we dont have the budget to change either.

Dont get me wrong, I am 99% happy with alpha and camco, but I often wonder is the gras greener??
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Lester Moran on November 28, 2006, 07:42:42 pm
Lester Moran wrote on Tue, 03 October 2006 01:27

This is timely for me as I was recently offered four rep-demo V6s for 2,900 USD each.  I would be replacing four MA3600s that serve as sub and mid amps in a JBL 4894 /SRX 4715 system.  I like the 3600s, but a more power/less weight upgrade would be cool as long as sonically it is an upgrade.


I see the latest Bink's Amp Shootout didn't get Camcos to test, and Forum searches haven't produced the breadth of Camco opinions I was hoping for.  Can anyone provide a link to some opinions I may have missed?

Thanks,  Les



Thank you, gentlemen, for the insight and the opinions.  This has been quite an education.

Les


Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on November 28, 2006, 09:50:01 pm
Hi guys,
Just to let you know, Tom M. now has the amp. He'll probably be writing something up about it soon. I did have it, but had no use for it.



Evan
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on November 28, 2006, 10:08:44 pm
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 19:50

Hi guys,
Just to let you know, Tom M. now has the amp. He'll probably be writing something up about it soon. I did have it, but had no use for it.



Evan


Let me get this right....You have two Yorkville UCS1 subs and you couldn't find a use for a Camco Vortex 6?  Hmmmmm?  Let's see, 1350 watt per channel into 8 ohms with only 2 RU and 29 lbs wouldn't work for you.  

I just got my fourth Vortex 6 and hope to buy another four of them really soon.  I can find all kinds of uses for them.  I just wish I had the budget to buy a bunch of Vortex 4s for my monitors too!
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 29, 2006, 03:14:52 am
Lester Moran wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 18:42

Lester Moran wrote on Tue, 03 October 2006 01:27

This is timely for me as I was recently offered four rep-demo V6s for 2,900 USD each.  I would be replacing four MA3600s that serve as sub and mid amps in a JBL 4894 /SRX 4715 system.  I like the 3600s, but a more power/less weight upgrade would be cool as long as sonically it is an upgrade.

I see the latest Bink's Amp Shootout didn't get Camcos to test, and Forum searches haven't produced the breadth of Camco opinions I was hoping for.  Can anyone provide a link to some opinions I may have missed?

Thanks,  Les


Thank you, gentlemen, for the insight and the opinions.  This has been quite an education.

Les

Hi Les-

I'm sure it's been... educational. Wink  What conclusions, if any, did this help you to reach?  Were you able to draw any conclusions about the suitability of the V6 for the gear you own and the types of gigs you do?  I'm not bagging on you, I'm just trying to find out if some of this was meaningful for you.

I'm hoping that you will be able to secure a demo unit and try it for yourself, and I'd really like to hear *your* opinion of the differences you find in your applications.  I think part of the disparity in comments comes from a pretty broad swath of use types and test bench expectations...

It boils down to:  how do they work for you?  And that's the reason we have the Road Test.

Good luck, have fun, and let us know how this all goes for you.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Tom Manchester on November 29, 2006, 01:56:37 pm
As Evan said I now have the amp in my posession...for less then 24 hours at this point. Here are my initial impressions:

Likes:
Lightweight, <30 pounds and the weight is well distributed. should make lifting in a rack easier since the rack won't tip one way or the other.

lots of power in a 2 space package, with 4 channels. Would be great for 4 passive or 2 active monitor mixes if you don't mind putting all your eggs in one basket.

good amount of options for gain, bridge modes, etc. by switches on the back. nice amount of indicators on the front.

Dislikes:

Only 2 NL4 speakons on the back for output? Anything other then 2 bi-amped speakers is going to require special cables. banana / binding posts would be nice

personal dislike: 4 amp channels in one package, would be ok if you have more then one amp in a rack, or carry a backup, but use this thing as your only amp in a rig and in the unlikely event it dies you are out of luck.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on November 29, 2006, 02:29:25 pm
So you have the Vortex Quatro 3 if it is four channels!  I thought you had a Vortex 6.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Lester Moran on December 02, 2006, 10:45:14 am
Tim McCulloch wrote on Wed, 29 November 2006 08:14

Lester Moran wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 18:42

Lester Moran wrote on Tue, 03 October 2006 01:27

This is timely for me as I was recently offered four rep-demo V6s for 2,900 USD each.  I would be replacing four MA3600s that serve as sub and mid amps in a JBL 4894 /SRX 4715 system.  I like the 3600s, but a more power/less weight upgrade would be cool as long as sonically it is an upgrade.

I see the latest Bink's Amp Shootout didn't get Camcos to test, and Forum searches haven't produced the breadth of Camco opinions I was hoping for.  Can anyone provide a link to some opinions I may have missed?

Thanks,  Les


Thank you, gentlemen, for the insight and the opinions.  This has been quite an education.

Les

Hi Les-

I'm sure it's been... educational. Wink  What conclusions, if any, did this help you to reach?  Were you able to draw any conclusions about the suitability of the V6 for the gear you own and the types of gigs you do?  I'm not bagging on you, I'm just trying to find out if some of this was meaningful for you.

I'm hoping that you will be able to secure a demo unit and try it for yourself, and I'd really like to hear *your* opinion of the differences you find in your applications.  I think part of the disparity in comments comes from a pretty broad swath of use types and test bench expectations...

It boils down to:  how do they work for you?  And that's the reason we have the Road Test.

Good luck, have fun, and let us know how this all goes for you.

Tim Mc


Hi Tim.

My Criteria for amps and indeed much of my personal gear are:

How it sounds to me.
It should have an "industry-standard" reputation for durability and user-friendliness.
And...  Snob appeal.


I've worked part-time for a relatively big-deal production house for a long time, and they've always used QSC (which I think is great stuff) into JBL "proprietary" in the seventies, Turbosound in the eighties, to JBL Array series and HLA in the nineties, and now Vertec.  So this is what I'm used to and my frame of reference.

I've been a Crown guy since I bought my first used DC300, and powering my 4894 Array cabinets I think my Macrotechs are a little sweeter than the boss' Powerlights, and my experience, at least on the east coast, is that Macrotechs garner a bit more admiration from those I may occasionally be providing my personal system for.

And now I'm thinking Macrotech may have been the apex of the Crown line.  I've worked jobs that had ITech on them but not personally used them, but the carping on them on PSW has caused me to think it's time to consider that another manufacturer may be producing the next "greatest" amp.  And like I said earlier, less weight and fan noise would be a plus.

So for me, the search goes on.  Regardless of how they "sound", I'm reading enough less-than-glowing endorsement here to believe that the Camco V6 is not going to assume the hallowed position once occupied by Macrotech.  

Put another way, the company gear is rightfully all about business.  My personal stuff also brings in the intangible "pride of ownership".  Does this make any sense?

Les



Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on December 02, 2006, 12:11:27 pm
Hey Lester,

Before letting anyone totally influence your purchasing decisions let yours ears do the work for you.  I for one am VERY happy with the sound and quality of the Camcos.  Obviously there is one person here that doesn't like them for what ever reason.  Each to thier own!

I think you should at least demo one.  Semd me a PM and I can get you in touch with someone to try to get you a demo.  That's what I did and they were just the ticket for what I do.

I was thinking about I-Techs but I can not afford to carry a bunch of spare amps just in case one goes down in the middle of a show.  That is why I decided to demo the Camcos and I am very happy that I did!

I now have four of the Camco Vortex 6s and will be buying several more as the budget arises!  I may even buy some Vortex 4s for my monitors.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on December 02, 2006, 08:56:26 pm
@ Ryan: Yes, there is ONE person who doesn't like them, doesn't own them and won't ever own them (I compared! But anyways, I could send over a lot more people speaking of exactly the same problems I do, but most of them aren't interested in international, not to say English, forums). You say you can't afford to carry spare amps, so you didn't buy ITechs. Have you ever tried ITechs yourself and had them failing? Guess not, but you heard about it. I SAW multiple blown Vortexs, all from ONE SINGLE event, on the repair desk at a known company here in Germany, and I know what happened to them. It was no wrong handling and the mains were good also (none of the more 'line' sensitive gear crashed there). And of course this wasn't the only time I saw defective Vortexes, and I HEARD about much much more. Will that happen if you get a demo amp which you will test carefully? Certainly not. But now you heard about Vortexs going up into smoke. Will you start carrying spare Vortexs? I don't think so. You will have to let one burn during an event until you think about that. Don't forget that Crown ITechs are far more spread in the USA than Camco Vortex. If you hear about 15 ITechs shutting down it sounds worse than 1 Vortex shutting down, but in fact it's a similar ratio, if not worse!

While we are at anecdotal evidence, anyone ever heard of a LAB Gruppen burning?


@ Lester: Ryan is right in that point. Get a demo unit, but DON'T forget to do plenty of AB comparisons. Don't forget to do some comparisons on bad main lines and generators too, because there won't be always premium power available, right? And of course, every company that wants to sell mps will give you a demo unit. If you're looking for lightweight, don't forget LAB Gruppen, PowerSoft......

The Vortex is an really good sounding amp in mids and highs, I won't deny that.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Lester Moran on December 03, 2006, 12:59:39 pm
Jens Droessler wrote on Sun, 03 December 2006 01:56

... Don't forget to do some comparisons on bad main lines...


That alone is enough for me.

I do this festival every spring where it's common to see fluctuations from 109v to 127v all the way out at house.  I've worried about my omnidrive (no problem), but fretting over the power amps in such a situation is not something I'm willing to deal with.

Les
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on December 03, 2006, 01:52:05 pm
I really encourage everyone to do AB comparisons under realistic conditions. If you have the time, do it. No one needs to take my word on such matters.... I know what I'm talking of most of the time (that's when I talk about sound Smile ), but as I am obviously with a minority with some of my statements, I think people have to see for themselves... Smile
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Simon Tucker on December 04, 2006, 07:49:36 am
Lester Moran wrote on Sun, 03 December 2006 17:59


I do this festival every spring where it's common to see fluctuations from 109v to 127v all the way out at house.  I've worried about my omnidrive (no problem), but fretting over the power amps in such a situation is not something I'm willing to deal with.


I wouldnt worry too much about power problems and Camco Vortex 6's .. I did an event the other day where a generator was provided which wasnt really man enough for the job, but we had to use it anyway.  It was a case of every kick hit was knocking the voltage down.

It appeared that the rig had less headroom than it normally would with a stout AC supply, but the Vortex's never missed a beat all night.

Come to think of it, I have used several different generators in the past, some excellent, some not so great .. I have had FX units power down due to low voltage, but the Vortex's have never let me down.

Perhaps I have just tempted fate ....  Rolling Eyes

Simon
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: CHANCE PATAKI on December 08, 2006, 12:44:14 pm
Just curious, but is that "Camco" the same as "Camco drums" out of Chicago?
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 08, 2006, 12:59:31 pm
No.  Camco amplifiers are from Germany.

You need to go to the User Control Panel and change you "alias" to include your first and last names, or the moderators will delete your posts.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: CHANCE PATAKI on December 09, 2006, 01:06:44 pm
Oh so thats where that PM came from. I have well over 1000 posts on PSW's forums, I've always had my name posted ( CHANCE PATAKI ) I am confused WHERE exactly am I supposed to have my name (where it is presently missing)
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 09, 2006, 01:07:32 pm
Jens Droessler wrote on Sat, 18 November 2006 11:00

Of course an amp doesn't NEED to do full cycle for a long time with typical music. I use amplifiers not doing full cycle every day without problems in most cases. But IMO it is not wrong building the amp for doing it, making it able to draw 100A from a 110V line. IMO most manufacturers won't do this, not because they couldn't do it, but because it is much cheaper to build them that way.

Of course no amp in the class of 2x2000@4 ohms will do 24x7 full duty, but the ones I was talking of will do it for quite a while.

We do every kind of event, and sometimes, when the artists work with special effects or there's drum'n'bass music, amps lie the PowerSoft DigAms will regulate their output down. I had that several times, so in this case it IS a serious limitation...


100A from a 115V line? Where's the event, the Mercedes factory.


How about this. I would really like to hear what Bennett and the boy's have to say about these amplifiers. I for one respect their opinions. The Road Test is for this amp, so I would like to read about the pro's and con's for this amp. I don't care about what's going on with friends in Germany, mythical condensation, mis informed and inaccurate engineering concepts, perceived notions or comparisons to other manufactures or about arc welders turned audio amp (Audio Welders?.

If you need to make comparisons then start another thread. If you need to bash, piss and moan, start another thread. If your interested in what the REVIEWERS have to say, stay tuned. Want to road test another amp? Send it from Germany postage paid to these guy's who are taking their time to inform us, they'll use it, review it, and let you know how they feel about it. This is a REVIEW NOT A COMPARISON. If the review is favorable I'll put this amp on my list and make my own comparisons, perform my own listening tests and then decide.

Bennett, guy's, please continue to evaluate this amp and report back with your findings. I appreciate the effort and look forward to your next review / Road Test. Thank you! I'm done.
Title: Headline at the top of the page
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 09, 2006, 02:51:05 pm
Here is a quote of the headline from the top of the page:

"Important Notice: Full Names are required to post in these forums; please put your full name in the alias field in your profile."

Mac
Title: Name
Post by: Doug Fowler on December 09, 2006, 03:15:24 pm
It's in User Control Panel.  Put your full name in the alias field and that should do it.

thanks

-doug, LAB moderator
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on December 10, 2006, 09:08:42 pm
@ Bob Leonard:
Quote:

100A from a 115V line? Where's the event, the Mercedes factory.

We do events there, yes.

Quote:

How about this. I would really like to hear what Bennett and the boy's have to say about these amplifiers. I for one respect their opinions. The Road Test is for this amp, so I would like to read about the pro's and con's for this amp.

Firstly, I'm not stopping them on posting their experience, do I?
Secondly, YOU obviously DON'T want to hear about the cons...

Quote:

I don't care about what's going on with friends in Germany, mythical condensation, mis informed and inaccurate engineering concepts, perceived notions or comparisons to other manufactures or about arc welders turned audio amp (Audio Welders?.

And I don't care what crap you buy because someone said it is good (not specifically the Camco amp) while not knowing what 'standard' was applied. It's your problem if you buy without an accurate comparison. And that is all I say, I tell people WILLING TO BUY an amp in this class to take enough time to directly COMPARE before they set their mind. I didn't tell anyone of the road testers to make a comparison here.
Furthermore, if you think an amp is bad or worse than another because it CAN draw AND output this kind of current, it is you who has misinformed and inaccurate engineering concepts!

By the way, those reviews are mostly about 'perceived notions'.

I told the true story about the defective Camcos because people DON'T put the ITechs for example on their list just because some people here say that they get broken (so they did not even dare to get a sample). It was a direct reply to RYAN.

And if you like to refer to scientific facts as 'mythical', you're welcome, you're entitled to it. I won't make the effort to change your mind.

Quote:

If you need to make comparisons then start another thread. If you need to bash, piss and moan, start another thread. If your interested in what the REVIEWERS have to say, stay tuned.

I don't want to have a comparison HERE, and I don't bash here either. Why is it 'bashing' if I tell people about drawbacks of a product? And why the heck should I MOAN if other people buy products I wouldn't buy? That's their problem. If they do, so be it. But I think I have the right to tell people what the problems are. And if the 'road testers' know those problems (by reading about them here) they possibly can validate them. Wouldn't that be a benefit to all?
Quote:

Want to road test another amp? Send it from Germany postage paid to these guy's who are taking their time to inform us, they'll use it, review it, and let you know how they feel about it. This is a REVIEW NOT A COMPARISON.

I don't have products to be 'road tested'. And I don't BASH products because I want to push other products, I bash (by your definiton) products because they deserve it. I don't make up stuff.
So tell me, how can there be a review about the performance of an amp completely without comparison? By what standard does this amp perform 'good' or 'bad'? And where is it stated that a review here can't contain lines like 'I compared it to my Crest CA18 and it blew it away'?

Quote:

Bennett, guy's, please continue to evaluate this amp and report back with your findings. I appreciate the effort and look forward to your next review / Road Test. Thank you! I'm done.

Again, I never said, never intended and never want them to stop their test. Why should I? What's the worst thing that could happen? That you'll have to scroll down some pages before you can read their review?
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on December 10, 2006, 10:41:28 pm
I'll post a little reply here....

If an entire rack of amplifiers goes out but none of the other sensitive electronic items go out and someone says that it was from "Condensation"  that is such B.S.!!!  It is either user OR installer error OR someone spiller a liquid in there, there is no other reason, period. Having a river behind a venue wil not cause a failure, ever!  I work in 110' weather with humidity and the condensation has never caused an issue with mine!

The Camcos work great off of generators....I ran off of one yesterday.  In fact, I run off of generators more often than not!

Camcos are efficient with regards to A.C. current draw.  When I was testing one BEFORE choosing to buy them I ran my subs, one per channel until the clip light just barely flashed.  I measured only 8 amps!  And to top it off they had sound great in low frequencies TOO!  

Last night, running off of a generator we provided recorded music and announcements for a croud of about 5000 people.  It was not a loud event, we were typically running with about 30+db of headroom.  I was running four tops and four subs.  Current draw was less than 20 amps total for four Camco Vortex 6s and four TCS TA2400s (bridged for subs) and a couple other small items, computer, monitor, etc.

We also provided the power for five Jump Houses ans six vendor booths.  They pulled considerably more current than we did!

I currently use four Camco Vortex 6s to run my Highs, Mids and Lows.  As soon as I buy a couple more I will run my subs off of them too!

I for one am VERY happy with the performance of the Camcos.  I personally tested several amps and listened to rigs closely with others.  I also did research here and other places with regards to failures before deciding what to buy.  My company is too small to be able to risk amps with potentially high failure rates such as I-Tech or Xti amps.  A friend of mine that is a manager at a big box store has had every single Xti amp that they have sold returned!  We don't want to carry heavy amp racks anymore so I am trying to eventually get completely away from bridging amps.  Soon I will no longer have to bridge any amps to get the power I need.  Then to top it all off, the Camcos have the very handy parallel mono mode that really makes these amps work great for my applications.

Of course everyone should do their own listening tests and research to make sure that the amps they purchase are the right ones for them.  I did and the Camcos are right for me no matter how much Jens tries to convince everyone that they aren't.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on December 11, 2006, 01:43:56 am
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 03:41

If an entire rack of amplifiers goes out but none of the other sensitive electronic items go out and someone says that it was from "Condensation"  that is such B.S.!!!  It is either user OR installer error OR someone spiller a liquid in there, there is no other reason, period. Having a river behind a venue wil not cause a failure, ever!  I work in 110' weather with humidity and the condensation has never caused an issue with mine! <snip>

Of course everyone should do their own listening tests and research to make sure that the amps they purchase are the right ones for them.  I did and the Camcos are right for me no matter how much Jens tries to convince everyone that they aren't.


I've seen a number of shows with Camco amps rocking out in the pouring rain. You're not going to get much wetter than that unless you start feeding your amplifiers beer. When the filters on the front of the amps are soaking wet, you would figure that the insides are pretty wet right? Something to consider is that the Camco's run pretty hot (not excessively though) and any moisture inside is going to quickly get converted into vapor and get pulled out with the escaping air.

And considering I recently heard a story of a user with a 12 year old Camco amp that was stored in a barn and filled with straw sending it back to Camco for repair and getting a new equivalent replacement for free, I have my doubts that Camco is having QC issues with the Vortex line. If they were spending money out the ass repairing their new line, they wouldn't be going the extra mile to take care of customers who abused a 12 year old amp.

That being said, I'm not hearing Jens trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating his experiences with the Vortex line, which doesn't seem to be in line with most of the other users of this amp, including myself. And I'm seeing a bunch of people jumping down his throat for doing so, which I think is a little unfair. Jens is obviously a very opinionated person, which I don't think is a bad thing and I appreciate his views being posted here. But interested parties should note that he's pretty much the only one with this opinion posting here.

I'll be doing a little sub shootout next month between the FP 13000, Powersoft K10, and the Vortex 6. I'll probably bring along a Crest 9001 for good measure as well, and I will be posting the results of this shootout here on the LAB. We'll be testing with both horn-loaded and front-loaded subs.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Lester Moran on December 11, 2006, 04:17:56 pm
Pascal Pincosy wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 06:43

That being said, I'm not hearing Jens trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating his experiences with the Vortex line, which doesn't seem to be in line with most of the other users of this amp, including myself. And I'm seeing a bunch of people jumping down his throat for doing so, which I think is a little unfair. Jens is obviously a very opinionated person, which I don't think is a bad thing and I appreciate his views being posted here. But interested parties should note that he's pretty much the only one with this opinion posting here.


I've noticed that folks expressing views contrary to the majority have historically been treated with unnecessary animus at PSW.  This discourages fresh opinions from folks that may be more timid than Jens is.   That's a loss to everyone.

FWIW

Les
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 11, 2006, 11:56:21 pm
Jens Droessler wrote on Sun, 10 December 2006 21:08

@ Bob Leonard:
Quote:

100A from a 115V line? Where's the event, the Mercedes factory.

We do events there, yes.

Well good for you. That still doesn't explain 100 amps from a 115v line.

Quote:

How about this. I would really like to hear what Bennett and the boy's have to say about these amplifiers. I for one respect their opinions. The Road Test is for this amp, so I would like to read about the pro's and con's for this amp.


Firstly, I'm not stopping them on posting their experience, do I?
Secondly, YOU obviously DON'T want to hear about the cons...

What I don't want is you pissing on my leg and then trying to tell me it's raining. What I do want is an educated opinion. That would be theirs, not yours.

Quote:

I don't care about what's going on with friends in Germany, mythical condensation, mis informed and inaccurate engineering concepts, perceived notions or comparisons to other manufactures or about arc welders turned audio amp (Audio Welders?.


And I don't care what crap you buy because someone said it is good (not specifically the Camco amp) while not knowing what 'standard' was applied. It's your problem if you buy without an accurate comparison. And that is all I say, I tell people WILLING TO BUY an amp in this class to take enough time to directly COMPARE before they set their mind. I didn't tell anyone of the road testers to make a comparison here.
Furthermore, if you think an amp is bad or worse than another because it CAN draw AND output this kind of current, it is you who has misinformed and inaccurate engineering concepts!

Well good for you. That still doesn't explain 100 amps from a 115v line.


By the way, those reviews are mostly about 'perceived notions'.

I told the true story about the defective Camcos because people DON'T put the ITechs for example on their list just because some people here say that they get broken (so they did not even dare to get a sample). It was a direct reply to RYAN.

And if you like to refer to scientific facts as 'mythical', you're welcome, you're entitled to it. I won't make the effort to change your mind.

Quote:

If you need to make comparisons then start another thread. If you need to bash, piss and moan, start another thread. If your interested in what the REVIEWERS have to say, stay tuned.

I don't want to have a comparison HERE, and I don't bash here either. Why is it 'bashing' if I tell people about drawbacks of a product? And why the heck should I MOAN if other people buy products I wouldn't buy? That's their problem. If they do, so be it. But I think I have the right to tell people what the problems are. And if the 'road testers' know those problems (by reading about them here) they possibly can validate them. Wouldn't that be a benefit to all?

It would if it were beleivable. You tend to shoot more shit than a North Korean radio.

Quote:

Want to road test another amp? Send it from Germany postage paid to these guy's who are taking their time to inform us, they'll use it, review it, and let you know how they feel about it. This is a REVIEW NOT A COMPARISON.

I don't have products to be 'road tested'. And I don't BASH products because I want to push other products, I bash (by your definiton) products because they deserve it. I don't make up stuff.
So tell me, how can there be a review about the performance of an amp completely without comparison? By what standard does this amp perform 'good' or 'bad'? And where is it stated that a review here can't contain lines like 'I compared it to my Crest CA18 and it blew it away'?

You would have to understand the definition of a review. So because you don't I have included it below.

Quote:

Bennett, guy's, please continue to evaluate this amp and report back with your findings. I appreciate the effort and look forward to your next review / Road Test. Thank you! I'm done.

Again, I never said, never intended and never want them to stop their test. Why should I? What's the worst thing that could happen? That you'll have to scroll down some pages before you can read their review?


Well there you go Jens. Still trying to make people think you know what your talking about. And that 100 amps from a 115 line. Even without the math isn't that a little less than a 1 ohm load. I think you have amplifiers and arc welders confused with each other, and to tell the truth it sounds like you should have been a welder.

Comparison
is the action, or an act, of comparing, likening, or representing as similar, the relation between things such as admits of their being compared, comparable condition or character, always with negative expressed or implied. "What is that to you? Follow me."

Review
determining the feasibility, appropriateness, relevance, effectiveness, and efficiency of an issue and drawing the consequent conclusions by the leadership or external parties on the basis of all relevant facts at hand.

It's called a review - Understand the difference now?
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on December 12, 2006, 12:51:39 am
From the first Road Test review, emphasis is mine:

Bennett Prescott wrote

I just had an extremely informative chat on the phone with Mark.

Here's what's really going on: The Road Test forum will be a separate forum from the ones we currently know and love. It is not an arena for manufacturers to bribe big names in the audio business into spewing fluffy reviews out their proverbial rears. It is unfortunate that the TT24 review appeared that way, but that is due to a number of factors, not the least of which is that it's the first of its kind and Steve Beatty is used to mixing on a lot less, so isn't coming at this from the LAB-level perspective.

What Mark is really trying to do is get meaningful, near-real-time, un-glossed-over reviews about products that have a lot of interest in the marketplace but not a lot of exposure. He wants to try an use his clout as president of Huge Universe to get manufacturers to send products to people the pro audio community respects for a real hands on review. Everyone wins in this case, since the manufacturer gets feedback and exposure, and the LAB gets a meaningful review. The manufacturers will not be allowed to edit content, and hopefully there will be a meaningful discussion of features and impressions started so that LABsters can get their points of interest covered by whomever has the product being reviewed.


Seems to me that since Jens has thankfully brought up these possible issues, this is now a call to the reviewers to double-check for problems like running on low voltaqe, shorting in a humid environment, and sounding crappy on subs. I would think that comparisions with a well-known competitor would be helpful.

There's also the easily accessable and seldom used "ignore all messages by this user" button...
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on December 12, 2006, 01:27:24 am
BTW Bob, in the comment about 100 amps at 120 volts mains, Jens was refering to an amp from Studio R in Brasil called the X12, which is an 11,000 watts RMS Class-H amplifier that pulls up to 68 amps 220v (so I'd guess about 125 amps @120v) at its peak current draw.

You would probably need a revised distro to run an amp like this with a 2 Ohm load, maybe up to 100 amps @ 120v per circuit Smile
Though I think 50 amps per circuit @ 120v would be fine for almost all applications not involving a 2 Ohm load and a Drum & Bass/Hardcore show.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 12, 2006, 10:17:38 am
Pascal Pincosy wrote on Tue, 12 December 2006 01:27

BTW Bob, in the comment about 100 amps at 120 volts mains, Jens was refering to an amp from Studio R in Brasil called the X12, which is an 11,000 watts RMS Class-H amplifier that pulls up to 68 amps 220v (so I'd guess about 125 amps @120v) at its peak current draw.

You would probably need a revised distro to run an amp like this with a 2 Ohm load, maybe up to 100 amps @ 120v per circuit Smile
Though I think 50 amps per circuit @ 120v would be fine for almost all applications not involving a 2 Ohm load and a Drum & Bass/Hardcore show.



13,200 Watts @ 1.5 ohms, IEC, 500ms, 136A @ 115V, 68A @ 220V. These are all maximum ratings. The EIA ratings are considerably lower.

As quoted from Meyer;

"When an amplifier is rated in RMS watts, this is a shorthand way of saying “average watts obtained by the RMS method.” If you use a signal other than a sine wave, you must use a meter reading ‘true’ RMS voltage to obtain the correct average power.

So what about peak power? Peak power is a special case where Ppeak = Epeak * I peak. For a sine wave, this is always twice the average power. A major problem with using this rating, however, is that many power amplifiers cannot maintain peak power for more than a few milliseconds.

The standard method of testing a power amplifier to see if the power supply can maintain continuous peak power is to connect all channels of the amplifier into load resistors, drive the amplifier’s input with a square wave and monitor the peak voltage at the outputs. Almost all power amplifiers will ‘sag’ in output power under this drive condition.

Now, having a power amplifier produce twice the continuous sine wave power is hardly necessary for music reproduction, but sometimes music signals produce short-term square wave or large sine wave-like waveforms. So how long should a power amplifier be able to maintain reproduction of a square wave or sine wave at full amplitude?

Recently Meyer Sound measured a well-known dual 18” subwoofer system that came with a power amplifier. The amplifier’s power supply rail when it was not being driven sat at 160 volts. Using this rail voltage, we could calculate the instantaneous peak power for a 4 ohm (resistive) load to be:

E2/R = 1602/4 = 6,400 watts per channel

Thus, we could claim this amplifier has well over 12,000 watts of peak power. This is a very impressive power rating to publish, but is it at all meaningful? Meyer Sound engineers drove the system with a single, drum note of 40 milliseconds in duration. The power amplifier rail voltage plummeted from 160 volts to 80 volts while playing the note. This 80-volt drop in output level acts as a compressor on the audio. The transducers used in this system were very non-linear, producing a large amount of second harmonic distortion."

These are incredible amplifiers Jens is talking about and they would probably work quite well from a 230V 30A source. Note that the published EIA rating  for the amp indicates it will draw 19.3 amps and produce 6600 watts per channel under a 2 OHM load. I look at this as a real world figure. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Jens also makes a deal out of 115v and lives in a country where 230V is standard.



Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 12, 2006, 10:55:17 am
From the independent review. See link below;

In addition to their efficient power/weight ratio, these amps also feature sophisticated circuitry that requires some in-depth examination. For many years now the Wenden-based company Camco from the southern part of the German „Sauerland“ region has made an excellent name for itself by marketing its own high-quality products, in addition to various other distribution activities. The Camco program includes dimmer packs of all sizes as well as Camco power amps,which are currently marketed under the names DL and DX. Both series enjoy a reputation as high-grade and indestructible workhorses, which are, however, not particularly light-weight and employ conventional power supply circuitry. At this year’s Music Fair in Frankfurt Camco presented the first model of the new Vortex Series, the Vortex 6,which is a completely new design and follows the trend of the time. It was the first time that designer Carsten Wegner employed switched mode power supplies, without which a power amp from this performance category will hardly have any future. The goal was to get into the 6,000-watt range of total power,which makes quite stringent demands on the peripheral circuitry and protective devices used; after all, „normal wall outlets“ can deliver a long-term maximum of 3,600 watts only.

http://www.camcoaudio.com/downloads/review_vortex_prod-partn er.pdf
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on December 13, 2006, 11:49:01 am
@ Bob Leonard: I said it CAN draw this current, not that it does it all the time! It CAN do full cycle for quite a time, where every other light weight amp has to pass. And that's all I said. It's not a bad thing those amps CAN draw this current.
The EIA tests use usually a signal very close to 'common pop music' (fullrange!), that has very little to do with 80Hz lowpassed signals at a hiphop concert for example. These would have significant lower crest, so more current than the EIA rated 19.3A at 230V would be drawn then.
I was talking about 115V so people from the US can picture it more easily as they calculate with 115V every day.

Another thing I don't care about is what YOU think of me.  You say I'm bashing the Camcos for no reason? I say YOU're bashing me! I'm not bashing anything. You can check out at any time if I'm right or wrong. What would be the sense in telling wrong stories if anyone could proof me wrong with real evidence? I'm convinced that most things I told people about are reproduceable issues.

You really believe a highly ad-sponsored magazine can do 'free' reviews? I subscribed this magazine and I can tell you that NO product has EVER got a bad review there. It's quite simple: You put ads for half a year there, you get a review. If you don't put ads there, no review at all. The review you get will be made in a way that makes the decision to continue the ads easy. You have to read between the lines to find the issues.... which you WOULD have found if you read the FULL article in German. The 'weak bass' issue is covered there even in the measurement for example!

@ RYAN: So you think running around +-200V at the output stage of a high power amplifier equipped with tightly packed SMD transistors makes no difference to the 5V/+15V/-15V internal running other gear in terms of humidity? Ok, then.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 14, 2006, 01:55:50 pm
This is starting to get rediculous. It's the holiday season so all anyone wants to rent is my wireless lavaliers and lights. Still haven't had a chance to take this baby out for a spin yet. Although I did use it with my trx-153 for my sound active christmas tree lights.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 14, 2006, 09:18:51 pm
Tom,
How about setting up the "A" rig in front of the house while you play Pat Boone christmas carols over and over again all weekend long at max volume. Maybe some of the chipmunks once in a while?
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 15, 2006, 12:11:00 pm
Bob Leonard wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 21:18

Tom,
How about setting up the "A" rig in front of the house while you play Pat Boone christmas carols over and over again all weekend long at max volume. Maybe some of the chipmunks once in a while?


Lol, well my neighborhood isn't terribly rough, but I don't think the A rig would last 2 minutes outside playing pat boone before it was turned into firewood!

Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Samuel Monteiro on December 23, 2006, 10:59:55 am
Hello people,

Studio R has just updated it's power and consumption ratings comparison chart with better and more accurate information.

Please check at http://www.studior.com.br/english/eia.htm

According to this link, Studio R X-Series amplifiers can achieve higher power ratings and sustain it longer than amplifiers like Camco Vortex, Lab Gruppen and Powersoft (to check if these specifications are right, I'd recomend a test).

Studio R also claims to fulfill Meyer Sound's power measuring recommendations and sustaining capabilities, like quoted here before.

Merry-Christmas and a happy New Year to everyone!

Regards,

Samuel
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Bennett Prescott on December 23, 2006, 11:05:44 am
Where the hell did that come from?
Who are you?
Do you work for these people?
Why would you think this was an appropriate place for this post?
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on December 23, 2006, 01:14:32 pm
@ Bennett: I guess he saw the talks about the amps in here, so he thought it would be appropriate to post it here. There is no need to get upset, it's his first post anyway. This is of course the Camco review, I just pulled those amps as an example, someone pointed out which amps those are.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Bennett Prescott on December 23, 2006, 01:24:36 pm
I think I saw a movie about this topic:

The Fast and the Furious: Thread Drift.

I'll get back to work now.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Ales Dravinec 'Alex' on December 23, 2006, 01:56:30 pm
Samuel Monteiro wrote on Sat, 23 December 2006 15:59

....Studio R also claims to fulfill Meyer Sound's power measuring recommendations and sustaining capabilities.....
Samuel




Which are ???

Alex

MC and HNY to you too Cool
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on December 23, 2006, 05:23:35 pm
Ales Dravinec 'Alex' wrote on Sat, 23 December 2006 11:56

Samuel Monteiro wrote on Sat, 23 December 2006 15:59

....Studio R also claims to fulfill Meyer Sound's power measuring recommendations and sustaining capabilities.....
Samuel




Which are ???

Alex

MC and HNY to you too Cool


Chaotic
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Samuel Monteiro on December 23, 2006, 06:35:47 pm
Hello Mr. Prescott,

I don't know who you are either, but I just saw people here talking about Studio R amplifiers, it's power ratings, EIA and IEC standards and Meyer Sound's info about it. I tougth my post would help.

If you check Mr. Bob Leonard's post (Tue, 12 December 2006 09:17) for example, you will see what my post is about.

But forgive-me for my intromission. I just tought it was an open discussion forum where I could contribute in a construtive way about whatever people was already talking about...

Maybe I missed some of the forum rules, sorry. We can only talk about the initial subject, no matter where the discussion goes or leads us, right? Otherwise people will get angry, isn't it?

So, my apologies. I didn't meant to destroy "Camco Vortex Amplifiers" topic's integrity. The topic is all yours again.

Regards,

Samuel Monteiro
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on December 23, 2006, 08:15:42 pm
Hi Samuel,

You might want to take a minute and check out this page that references manufacturers:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/9/9721/

Perhaps a thread all about Camco amplifiers is not the best place for you to post. But rest assured there is plenty of interest in your amplifiers and I'm sure there will be threads referencing them very soon.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Bennett Prescott on December 24, 2006, 10:12:56 am
Samuel, I'm probably just a little extra cranky. As long as you don't work for the company in question, I'm at fault and apologize. I'll get some coffee in me STAT.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Samuel Monteiro on December 25, 2006, 10:45:25 pm
Hello felows,

No hard feelings. I was really trying to help only.

Kind regards,

Samuel
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Tom Manchester on December 28, 2006, 06:38:57 pm
Tried out ye' olde Camco V3 quatro today to test a 3 way cab I designed. Worked pretty well and sounded clean all the way up to the point of clipping. I got the cab loud enough that my dad walked in to tell me to turn it down because of a phone call. he stood behind me and yelled but I couldn't hear him. Not too shabby I guess. I discovered another little quirk about it. The Neutrik XLR's are upside down so the tabs are under the connector. Kind of weird.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on December 28, 2006, 07:00:09 pm
If I recall it right (I might be wrong on that) the whole amp is built 'upside down', having the PCB attached to the upside of the housing.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on December 28, 2006, 07:52:14 pm
Yes, The entire amp inside the rack is upside down.  This seemingly insignificant detail helps keep the dust bunnies out of the circuitry.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Lee Jacobson on December 28, 2006, 11:32:24 pm
AFAIK, QSC PLX amps are this way as well. Either that, or last time I had my two 3002 apart, I was in some alternate reality...
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on December 28, 2006, 11:32:24 pm
The new Crest amps are built the same way. I was told by another local sound company that owns a bunch that none of them had to be taken apart and painstakingly brushed clean by hand after Burning Man last year. A quick blowout and they were good to go. A savings of many hours of labor.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on December 28, 2006, 11:45:16 pm
Lee Jacobson wrote on Thu, 28 December 2006 23:32

AFAIK, QSC PLX amps are this way as well. Either that, or last time I had my two 3002 apart, I was in some alternate reality...


Yup, PLX's are built the same way.

First plx amp I got freaked me out. I was like, is this amp upside down!? Had to make a few calls...


Evan
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Tom Manchester on January 16, 2007, 11:00:27 pm
I'm not going to lie or beat around the bush. The whole "all 4 channels on 2 speakons" is a REALLY big inconvenience to me. I haven't used the amp yet mostly because of that reason. It would require me rigging up special connectors just for that and I don't have the time or money to buy a bunch of extra NL4's. Lab Grupen got it right on their amps...

index.php/fa/7463/0/

Now that's convenient! And put some binding post outputs on there too, especially if your amps are going to be hooked up to a patchbay it saves the need to have to get even more speakon connectors.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on January 17, 2007, 12:20:30 am
index.php/fa/7465/0/

I can understand your not wanting to make custom patch cables for a casual test of a single amp but of course if you were intending to buy a pallet load of these for your stadium system you'd be getting over it pretty quickly.

I haven't looked inside the Quadro to see if there's any room for two more NL4s. Is there? Do they just not have any choice?

Perhaps the Road Test amp samples should be supplied with some typical patch gack.

-Bink
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Chris Cowley on January 17, 2007, 08:36:40 am
I think not, if I remember rightly, the PCB is where you marked the exra jacks.

Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 05:20

index.php/fa/7465/0/

I can understand your not wanting to make custom patch cables for a casual test of a single amp but of course if you were intending to buy a pallet load of these for your stadium system you'd be getting over it pretty quickly.

I haven't looked inside the Quadro to see if there's any room for two more NL4s. Is there? Do they just not have any choice?

Perhaps the Road Test amp samples should be supplied with some typical patch gack.

-Bink

Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jens Droessler on January 17, 2007, 11:35:52 am
I have no problem with only two speakons for four channels. If you put amps in racks you'll probably add a connector panel anyway, so you have to put some speakons there, a wire and at the end of it some speakons to connect to the amp (That's what I do with my LAB Gruppen). In that fashion you only need two NL4 to connect to the amp instead of four.

However, adding two speakons wouldn't have hurt. The amp is expensive, I don't know why they couldn't put in two more speakons for the price of 3$.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: John Chiara on February 20, 2007, 02:08:18 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Mon, 25 September 2006 00:39

So far I've used these amps twice, both times driving monitors. Unfortunately, it wasn't exactly a critical listening test, and I certainly wasn't driving them up against their rails so I didn't get to experience how they performed under duress. I also recently used a Vortex 6 while working with another company, and it was good to me as well, but since it was running front fills I barely tickled the signal lights. Since I'm doing a bunch of suitcase gigs this time of year, I palmed both amps off on others... John Chiara and Mike Butler should be showing up with their opinions soon. I'm sure they'll put them to good use, and after they're done we can move them on to others who may be able to subject them to some real world abuse.

The product page for these amplifiers is available here: http://www.camcoaudio.com/Vortex.html


I have had the V4 for a while and have used it as replacement for a number of QSC PLX amps..2402,3002 and 3402. In all cases the amp worked flawlessly and in the current use..powering my upstairs full range Danley Sh 100's..sounds great. Sorry no more technical info..I don't get the chance to change stuff around except out of necessity.

Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Rick Soukup on September 22, 2009, 07:59:24 am
I don't quite understand all the bickering, But we own 36 Vortex6.  We have had pretty good luck with them over the last 4 years.  I have to agree about the low end but as with light weight amp you must offset lack of weight with lots of power. A watt is not just a watt anymore.  We swapped all our V6's that we we using on subs with Lab FP+14000.  Woe... Hold on to your panties.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Rick Soukup on September 22, 2009, 08:00:12 am
I don't quite understand all the bickering, But we own 36 Vortex6.  We have had pretty good luck with them over the last 4 years.  I have to agree about the low end but as with light weight amp you must offset lack of weight with lots of power. A watt is not just a watt anymore.  We swapped all our V6's that we we using on subs with Lab FP+14000.  Woe... Hold on to your panties.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: mattdale on June 22, 2010, 08:40:35 pm
Has anyone had any problems with a digital popping sound on the Vortex 6.0s? I've had it once on a Vertec rig and once on a V-Dosc system (@2ohms).  Didn't have enough time to troubleshoot other than swapping the amp with a spare and now I can't reproduce it in the shop. Just want to see if anyone else has heard this.
Title: Re: Camco Vortex Amplifiers
Post by: Jason Joseph on July 02, 2010, 01:22:17 pm
If I remember correctly it would happen when the amps arent getting enough juice. I had similar problems with a bad power situation nearing the 96v area..